The Mah-vel Unfawking Thread Step Two: Planet? I barely know et!

The_Impress · Jun 16, 2025

Hello, it's finally here.

In step 1 we established the Grey Hulk feat is an outlier and as such, dogshit to use.

In step 1.5 we established the Champion of the Universe is a bad character to scale 5-Bs from, and as such he isn't scaleable anymore.

Now it's time to address the final few feats.

Miscellaneous Feats

The Thing survives an attack that can split a planet in half: Low 5-B (1.21 zettatons)

First things first, this feat is Low 5-B, not 5-B, being remarkedly lower than the proposed tier. Secondly, let's address the elephant in the room: this feat is snipped to not reveal a crucial piece of the context.

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Invisible Woman interrupts this chain of events to throw down a shield and blocks off a bulk of the attack, with a punch-drunk Thing remarking he could've taken it. We DON'T know, OR see the amount of this attack that Sue absorbs compared to Ben, but either way it has to be a significant amount. So this feat isn't Low 5-B, it's some fraction of it.

Finally, this is VERY MUCH implied to be a limiting feat for the Thing, Dr. Doom states Ben should be dead and that this is DEFINITELY not his usual durability (If we are taking Dr. Doom to be a reliable authority at guesstimating a random Galactus blast we can DEFINITELY take his word on the Thing's showcase), so how the absolute hell do we have characters scaled 40-100 times ABOVE this rating? This feat is an ANTI-FEAT for the Thing in disguise, it is something that shouldn't even be accepted if we go by THE CURRENT system.

Hyperion and Gladiator can pulverize planets: 5-B (59.44 zettatons)

I don't like this feat because it goes back to the whole "certain characters are suddenly Planet level when fighting guys tiers higher than them. Gladiator is up to 3-C, and thus a way higher punching class than Hyperion ever could be. ADDITIONALLY, the planetary pulverization statement comes in reference to Hyperion's and Gladiator's combined Gravity Manipulation. For some reason we equated that to his raw physicals? ...Why?

Gilgamesh can lift the Earth: 5-B (59.44 zettatons)

Gilgamesh is arguably Thor tier who at times jobs to 5-B

616 Hyperion can destroy the Earth: 5-B (59.44 zettatons)

This Hyperion only fights Thor and Ikaris, and even then this is a random ass statement. You can destroy a planet 90 million ways that don't break tier 5.

At full concentration of his powers, Black Bolt was able to counter a planet-destroying solar flare

Peak feat, doesn't scale to shit

With Supernova, Human Torch can reach the temperature of an exploding star, which equates to 1.103845939245e33 joules every second

Firstly, I want a calc member to verify this, because NarutoForums calcs are wacky sometimes.

Secondly, this is per second, if he maintains this form for a minute, he hits 5-A, this is a 5-A feat. Luckily he says he can maintain this form for multiple of them.

Lastly... he does it for an extended period of time, and does it on Earth. This is horrendous 60s writing on par with shit like Angel tanking a nuke and turning evil from the radiation. Do you know why he bothers to go SUPERNOVA, ALL OUT, DESTROYER OF WORLDS, PLANETARY TIER?

It's to chase Namor underwater without extinguishing

Bro at this point he should be eradicating life from the planet. This is straight up a wacky ass feat that shouldn't be used. Human Torch in general I think should be variable to Far Higher (maybe even Thor tier), and there was one revision that got passed but never applied that put him there. Oh well.

What Now?

Well, if all of these feats get rejected, the next step of the plan is feat collection. I think we can do this here or a new thread, but either way, this is a pretty massive project altogether. First I'd want all of this accepted though, I don't want some rando jumping in the middle of feat collection because he had some opinions.

Eseseso · Jun 16, 2025

Seems ok.

If possible, we could downscale the Thing from the Low 5-B feat to Baseline Low 5-B (433 exatons)

The_Impress · Jun 16, 2025

Eseseso said:
Seems ok.

If possible, we could downscale the Thing from the Low 5-B feat to Baseline Low 5-B (433 exatons)

If it's the sole feat, no not really. That's still an outlier.

I want multiple feats this time, for this tier, really sick of "ONE GOD CALC TO SCALE THEM ALL". Like, the 9-B and High 8-C have multiple of them, this should too.

Antvasima · Jun 16, 2025

@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeThree @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @Catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Eseseso @Excellence616 @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @LordTracer @ProfectusInfinity @Maverick_Zero_X @Dark-Carioca @ObberGobb @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @FinePoint @SamanPatou @Starter_Pack

What do you think about this?

FinePoint · Jun 16, 2025

Assuming the math is correct, I'm fine with keeping the Human Torch feat. It's not uncommon for fiction to ignore reasonable collateral damage, so I don't think it's a reason to throw out the feat entirely.

Everything else seems logical.

DarkDragonMedeus · Jun 16, 2025

I agree we should nuke all the feats that are basically "Hiding an outlier" from scaling to weaker characters. And have direct feats to be used as a replacement for Thing or Grey Hulk scaling as opposed to indirect feats.

Suigetsuhyugs · Jun 16, 2025

The_Impress said:
Hello, it's finally here.

In step 1 we established the Grey Hulk feat is an outlier and as such, dogshit to use.

In step 1.5 we established the Champion of the Universe is a bad character to scale 5-Bs from, and as such he isn't scaleable anymore.

Now it's time to address the final few feats.

Miscellaneous Feats

The Thing survives an attack that can split a planet in half: Low 5-B (1.21 zettatons)

First things first, this feat is Low 5-B, not 5-B, being remarkedly lower than the proposed tier. Secondly, let's address the elephant in the room: this feat is snipped to not reveal a crucial piece of the context.

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Invisible Woman interrupts this chain of events to throw down a shield and blocks off a bulk of the attack, with a punch-drunk Thing remarking he could've taken it. We DON'T know, OR see the amount of this attack that Sue absorbs compared to Ben, but either way it has to be a significant amount. So this feat isn't Low 5-B, it's some fraction of it.

Doom says the blast is capable of splitting a planet then The thing takes the blast and survives which surprises Doom thinking he should be dead only then does Sue intervine with a shield, he should already scale to the planet splitting before Sue intervines, it wasn't a simple blast but a continous use of energy as the comics show that Galactus only stopped blasting them when Reed bluffed the ultimate nullifier.

The_Impress said:
Finally, this is VERY MUCH implied to be a limiting feat for the Thing, Dr. Doom states Ben should be dead and that this is DEFINITELY not his usual durability (If we are taking Dr. Doom to be a reliable authority at guesstimating a random Galactus blast we can DEFINITELY take his word on the Thing's showcase), so how the absolute hell do we have characters scaled 40-100 times ABOVE this rating? This feat is an ANTI-FEAT for the Thing in disguise, it is something that shouldn't even be accepted if we go by THE CURRENT system.

Doom literally states he underestimated the thing clearly he admitted he was wrong, we also have no reason to believe The thing was boosted in any way

The_Impress said:
Hyperion and Gladiator can pulverize planets: 5-B (59.44 zettatons)

I don't like this feat because it goes back to the whole "certain characters are suddenly Planet level when fighting guys tiers higher than them. Gladiator is up to 3-C, and thus a way higher punching class than Hyperion ever could be. ADDITIONALLY, the planetary pulverization statement comes in reference to Hyperion's and Gladiator's combined Gravity Manipulation. For some reason we equated that to his raw physicals? ...Why?

Gladiator's powers varies

The_Impress said:
Gilgamesh can lift the Earth: 5-B (59.44 zettatons)

Gilgamesh is arguably Thor tier who at times jobs to 5-B

Thor tier varies too and is very hard to scale to.

The_Impress said:
616 Hyperion can destroy the Earth: 5-B (59.44 zettatons)

This Hyperion only fights Thor and Ikaris, and even then this is a random ass statement. You can destroy a planet 90 million ways that don't break tier 5.

The rest of that page and the next let it pretty clear that he was gonna destroy the planet by punching it, I think it's pretty clear he was gonna punch Earth and destroy it, and this feat and the previous one about Hyperion are apparently the same version since both feats are on that profile

The_Impress said:
With Supernova, Human Torch can reach the temperature of an exploding star, which equates to 1.103845939245e33 joules every second

Secondly, this is per second, if he maintains this form for a minute, he hits 5-A, this is a 5-A feat. Luckily he says he can maintain this form for multiple of them.

Why would it be a per minute value? As far as I know we scale them for their output per second not the full amount of energy they possess.

The_Impress said:
Lastly... he does it for an extended period of time, and does it on Earth. This is horrendous 60s writing on par with shit like Angel tanking a nuke and turning evil from the radiation. Do you know why he bothers to go SUPERNOVA, ALL OUT, DESTROYER OF WORLDS, PLANETARY TIER?

It's to chase Namor underwater without extinguishing

Bro at this point he should be eradicating life from the planet. This is straight up a wacky ass feat that shouldn't be used. Human Torch in general I think should be variable to Far Higher (maybe even Thor tier), and there was one revision that got passed but never applied that put him there. Oh well.

No hero is supposed to destroy planets they are supposed to save them, their powers won't cause destruction because they are heroes not because they can't, and Namor already scales to The thing and Hulk so yes it makes sense to go "Planetary" to fight Namor.

SamanPatou · Jun 16, 2025

FinePoint said:
Assuming the math is correct, I'm fine with keeping the Human Torch feat. It's not uncommon for fiction to ignore reasonable collateral damage, so I don't think it's a reason to throw out the feat entirely.

I personally would keep it, but not consider it for its AP value, especially in reference to striking strength, or even just the potency of his flame beams.

Agree on the Thing's feat, which may also use to have further scrutiny for surface area, if we want to be true to math, assuming it can be calculated. It should definitwly be an "at most" as well, for even though he does take a very high amount of damage, he would still have died moments later, meaning not everyone who slugs with him or hurts him would automatically scale to it.

I also mostly agree with the other feats, for none of them really screams baseline or seems eligible for scaling to a million other characters. I believe Hyperion's statement to be quite literal, he is also quite high in the powerhouses tier list, no?

Eseseso · Jun 16, 2025

Based on what both sides have said, using surface area for The Thing's feat might be the best option.

The_Impress · Jun 16, 2025

Suigetsuhyugs said:
Doom says the blast is capable of splitting a planet then The thing takes the blast and survives which surprises Doom thinking he should be dead only then does Sue intervine with a shield, he should already scale to the planet splitting before Sue intervines, it wasn't a simple blast but a continous use of energy as the comics show that Galactus only stopped blasting them when Reed bluffed the ultimate nullifier.

Continuous use of energy which amounts to splitting a planet, yeah. The net value is Low 5-B, every second isn't necessarily Low 5-B

Suigetsuhyugs said:
Doom literally states he underestimated the thing clearly he admitted he was wrong, we also have no reason to believe The thing was boosted in any way

And he says the Thing's regular power level isn't that. 99% of scaling to the Thing operates by his regular power level

Suigetsuhyugs said:
The rest of that page and the next let it pretty clear that he was gonna destroy the planet by punching it, I think it's pretty clear he was gonna punch Earth and destroy it, and this feat and the previous one about Hyperion are apparently the same version since both feats are on that profile

Yeah I don't really think it's remotely obvious

Suigetsuhyugs said:
Why would it be a per minute value?

The calc gives a per second value.

Suigetsuhyugs said:
As far as I know we scale them for their output per second not the full amount of energy they possess.

Not really.

Suigetsuhyugs said:
No hero is supposed to destroy planets they are supposed to save them, their powers won't cause destruction because they are heroes not because they can't, and Namor already scales to The thing and Hulk so yes it makes sense to go "Planetary" to fight Namor.

FinePoint said:
Assuming the math is correct, I'm fine with keeping the Human Torch feat. It's not uncommon for fiction to ignore reasonable collateral damage, so I don't think it's a reason to throw out the feat entirely.

SamanPatou said:
I personally would keep it, but not consider it for its AP value, especially in reference to striking strength, or even just the potency of his flame beams.

Completely and vehemently disagree, he goes supernova to SWIM UNDERWATER, the writers were clearly just looking for a buzzword to slap in there, it's straight up headcanon to say "Oh he went Supernova to fight Namor" when he literally says its sole purpose was to use his fire powers underwater. It's utterly just using a random **** up from some writer in the 60s and scaling it to the 150 characters 70 years later. Is the argument now "baseline Human Torch can't even output enough fire to stay lit underwater"? Because if so then our guy needs to be downgraded insanely and nobody should scale to the 5-B feat.

FinePoint · Jun 16, 2025

The_Impress said:
Completely and vehemently disagree, he goes supernova to SWIM UNDERWATER, the writers were clearly just looking for a buzzword to slap in there, it's straight up headcanon to say "Oh he went Supernova to fight Namor" when he literally says its sole purpose was to use his fire powers underwater. It's utterly just using a random **** up from some writer in the 60s and scaling it to the 150 characters 70 years later. Is the argument now "baseline Human Torch can't even output enough fire to stay lit underwater"? Because if so then our guy needs to be downgraded insanely and nobody should scale to the 5-B feat.

Well is the use of the word "Supernova" the only reason it's Tier 5?

If so, then I view that as the calculation simply taking the scene too literally as opposed to the feat itself being unusable.

Suigetsuhyugs · Jun 16, 2025

The_Impress said:
Continuous use of energy which amounts to splitting a planet, yeah. The net value is Low 5-B, every second isn't necessarily Low 5-B

A normal blast is Low 5-B a continous blast is above that, Doom was surprised because The thing survived said Low 5-B blast the continous blast is jus further Low 5-B, it makes no sense to talk about the whole blast when he had no idea Galactus was gonna use a continous blast, the whole reason why Galactus keep going was because The thing managed to resist it.

The_Impress said:
And he says the Thing's regular power level isn't that. 99% of scaling to the Thing operates by his regular power level

No he doesn't, nowhere on that issue was that ever said, he is just surprised the Thing is capable of resisting that level of power.

The_Impress said:
Yeah I don't really think it's remotely obvious

They talk about "his fists of vengeance" and those fists are going to destroy earth, pretty clearly there.

The_Impress said:
The calc gives a per second value.

Exacly

The_Impress said:
Not really.

Yes it is, the per minute value would only be used if the other character stayed in direct contact with his power for minutes.

The_Impress said:
Completely and vehemently disagree, he goes supernova to SWIM UNDERWATER, the writers were clearly just looking for a buzzword to slap in there, it's straight up headcanon to say "Oh he went Supernova to fight Namor" when he literally says its sole purpose was to use his fire powers underwater. It's utterly just using a random **** up from some writer in the 60s and scaling it to the 150 characters 70 years later. Is the argument now "baseline Human Torch can't even output enough fire to stay lit underwater"? Because if so then our guy needs to be downgraded insanely and nobody should scale to the 5-B feat.

He never said it's sole purpose was to use his powers underwater, and Namor gets stronger underwater so Human torch clearly needs to amp himself or he is done for considering he wasn't winning not even when he was out.

The_Impress · Jun 17, 2025

Suigetsuhyugs said:
A normal blast is Low 5-B a continous blast is above that,

The whole output of the blast is Low 5-B, withstanding it is a fraction. Nowhere is it stated he's getting pelted by Low 5-B outputs every millisecond or something.

Suigetsuhyugs said:
No he doesn't, nowhere on that issue was that ever said, he is just surprised the Thing is capable of resisting that level of power.

"By all rights the Thing should be dead, I underestimated him. How on Earth is that oaf still standing?"

This is a guy Doom knows how to harm consistently. He should know his upper llimit, especially if he can somehow guesstimate a planetary Galactus blast.

Suigetsuhyugs said:
They talk about "his fists of vengeance" and those fists are going to destroy earth, pretty clearly there.

Not really, fists of vengeance destroy what portion of the earth? Surface? The population? What timeframe? World destruction statements are useless

Suigetsuhyugs said:
Exacly

Yeah?

Suigetsuhyugs said:
Yes it is, the per minute value would only be used if the other character stayed in direct contact with his power for minutes.

Good thing Namor doesn't withstand a hit from Human Torch once during this whole fight. Also not really how that works

Suigetsuhyugs said:
He never said it's sole purpose was to use his powers underwater, and Namor gets stronger underwater so Human torch clearly needs to amp himself or he is done for considering he wasn't winning not even when he was out.

Firstly, are you saying yes or no, that normal Human Torch doesn't scale to Namor?

FinePoint said:
Well is the use of the word "Supernova" the only reason it's Tier 5?

Yeah

Suigetsuhyugs · Jun 17, 2025

The_Impress said:
The whole output of the blast is Low 5-B, withstanding it is a fraction. Nowhere is it stated he's getting pelted by Low 5-B outputs every millisecond or something.

Where did you read that? Doom says that a blast from Galactus hands usign cosmic power is low 5-B therefore The Thing should be dead, but The Thing was not dead and Doom saw that. The Thing surviving low 5-B energy is what surprised Doom because he didn't thought The Thing could withstand low 5-B energy blasts.

The_Impress said:
"By all rights the Thing should be dead, I underestimated him. How on Earth is that oaf still standing?"

This is a guy Doom knows how to harm consistently. He should know his upper llimit, especially if he can somehow guesstimate a planetary Galactus blast.

Very clearly Doom doen't know The Thing's upper limit since he admitted he was wrong, he never said he was wrong about Galactus blast's power he said he was wrong about The Thing not withstanding.

The_Impress said:
Not really, fists of vengeance destroy what portion of the earth? Surface? The population? What timeframe? World destruction statements are useless

He was talking about how he would obliterate the planet, he even compared the destruction of Earth to what happened to his own planet that was destroyed. World destroying statements are the core of planet level tier, and this is comics the hero will stop the villain from destroying planets because that's what they do.

The_Impress said:
Good thing Namor doesn't withstand a hit from Human Torch once during this whole fight. Also not really how that works

It is exacly how that works.

The_Impress said:
Firstly, are you saying yes or no, that normal Human Torch doesn't scale to Namor?

That's not what we are discussing, and it's irrelevant, if Namor doesn't scale someone else does. The point is that he didn't went supernova wonly because he needed it to use his powers underwater, heck in this very issue he uses his powers underwater to keep his skin warm and burn Namor before he even goes Supernova.

The_Impress said:
Yeah

Because there is a calc for it using the statement that says he has "Supernova heat".

Armorchompy · Jun 17, 2025

The_Impress said:
Finally, this is VERY MUCH implied to be a limiting feat for the Thing, Dr. Doom states Ben should be dead and that this is DEFINITELY not his usual durability (If we are taking Dr. Doom to be a reliable authority at guesstimating a random Galactus blast we can DEFINITELY take his word on the Thing's showcase), so how the absolute hell do we have characters scaled 40-100 times ABOVE this rating? This feat is an ANTI-FEAT for the Thing in disguise, it is something that shouldn't even be accepted if we go by THE CURRENT system.

Sue struggling to block the attack is additional evidence for this feat being unreliable, given how strong her forcefields can be. But yes I agree.

The_Impress said:
Hyperion and Gladiator can pulverize planets: 5-B (59.44 zettatons)

I don't like this feat because it goes back to the whole "certain characters are suddenly Planet level when fighting guys tiers higher than them. Gladiator is up to 3-C, and thus a way higher punching class than Hyperion ever could be. ADDITIONALLY, the planetary pulverization statement comes in reference to Hyperion's and Gladiator's combined Gravity Manipulation. For some reason we equated that to his raw physicals? ...Why?

They'd definitely scale to the 5-B feat here, given it's a result of them clashing and they're not being destroyed by it. But for the rest, yeah.

The_Impress said:
Gilgamesh can lift the Earth: 5-B (59.44 zettatons)

Gilgamesh is arguably Thor tier who at times jobs to 5-B

I can't really weigh in on this.

The_Impress said:
616 Hyperion can destroy the Earth: 5-B (59.44 zettatons)

This Hyperion only fights Thor and Ikaris, and even then this is a random ass statement. You can destroy a planet 90 million ways that don't break tier 5.

Eh, "Obliterate your planet" seems 5-B. But you're right that this doesn't actually seem to scale to anyone.

The_Impress said:
At full concentration of his powers, Black Bolt was able to counter a planet-destroying solar flare

Peak feat, doesn't scale to shit

This is also possibly way higher than 5-B, if he countered the entire solar flare, which via inverse square law would've been a lot more than 5-B to deal 5-B destruction from such a distance. ~~The scan also never actually states it was 5-B~~

The_Impress said:
Secondly, this is per second, if he maintains this form for a minute, he hits 5-A, this is a 5-A feat. Luckily he says he can maintain this form for multiple of them.

This is incorrect. Our definition of AP is joules per second- he can do it for a day but it's how much he outputs at once that matters. Same reason firing an automatic gun for a minute doesn't make it 9-B.

The_Impress said:
Lastly... he does it for an extended period of time, and does it on Earth. This is horrendous 60s writing on par with shit like Angel tanking a nuke and turning evil from the radiation. Do you know why he bothers to go SUPERNOVA, ALL OUT, DESTROYER OF WORLDS, PLANETARY TIER?

It's to chase Namor underwater without extinguishing

Yeah, I mean either ways this isn't his usual output. I'm fine with either discarding this or treating it as an amp.

SamanPatou · Jun 18, 2025

I still believe Hyperion's statement to be clear-cut, but if there's no reliable scaling, then it doesn't matter.
Black Bolt and Human Torch's feats may even be planetary, but they are all extreme outputs of powers they rarely use at full power and could be sort of wonky/problematic to scale to physicals.

Qawsedf234 · Jun 18, 2025

So here's my view on it

The_Impress said:
First things first, this feat is Low 5-B, not 5-B, being remarkedly lower than the proposed tier. Secondly, let's address the elephant in the room: this feat is snipped to not reveal a crucial piece of the context.

For 5-B this is bad, I agree. But this is a Low 5-B feat itself. It's the upper limit for Thing, but he withstands it long enough for Sue to skate her way over to him.

The_Impress said:
. For some reason we equated that to his raw physicals? ...Why?

Well, they use their gravity manipulation to increase their strength and abilities. So this would still be a 5-B feat for them.

The_Impress said:
Gilgamesh is arguably Thor tier who at times jobs to 5-B

Lifting the Earth isn't 5-B unless you do it really fast. Like using KE

V = Square Root (KE / 0.5 * M)
V = Square Root(2.487E+32 / 0.5 * 5.972E+24)
V = 9126.26322812 m/s

Most standard lifts aren't generating this speed while they're on the ground. So this is actually not a 5-B justification but a 5-C to Low 5-B.

The_Impress said:
This Hyperion only fights Thor and Ikaris, and even then this is a random ass statement. You can destroy a planet 90 million ways that don't break tier 5.

Afaik we'd take this as a baseline 5-B value. Like how splitting the Earth is over Low 5-B 99% of the time, but we rate it as baseline for the bare minimum.

The_Impress said:
Peak feat, doesn't scale to shit

This is still a 5-B showing, though. Especially since it doesn't involve his voice.

The_Impress said:
This is straight up a wacky ass feat that shouldn't be used.

I agree with the environmental impacts not being equal to the showing enough to make the statement questionable. But Human Torch also has a bunch of evidence of supreme fire control, so I don't think you can dismiss it outright.

In my view most of the statements are useable; however two of them come from characters that we'd consider 3-C and not 5-B, one isn't 5-B, and the last is Johnny going 100% with his maximum output.

Overall while stuff like Low 5-B Thing or 5-B Bolt are legit in my mind, the rest have issues with use.

Antvasima · Jun 19, 2025

Thank you for helping out.

SamanPatou · Jun 19, 2025

Ok, to try and summarize:

Thing's Low 5-B feat: Legit. may need a calc (?) is it an "at most" feat (?) is it consistent or can it be used for scaling chains, aka everyone who matches and/or defeats the Thing?
Hyperion and Gladiator: Legit, but they already scale much higher, so it can't be used for lower tiers scaling, if I get it right
Gilgamesh: Legit, but lower than 5-B and he scales to higher characters anyway, same situation as Hyperion and Gladiator.
Hyperion: Legit, but scales to no one of the characters whose tier we are already discussing.
Black Bolt: Possibly legit? Any planet-destroying implication seems to be out of that scan. Still, it's a "max output" feat and through a special power that may not scale to general physicals/AP, nor to characters he normally fights or are featured in said list.
Human Torch: Possibly legit, but unlikely scales to physicals + it's once again a max output feat, so very hard to scale generally + there is no scaling to Namor in said story because of a lack of a fight.

All in all, it seems the Thing's feat is the only thing worth keeping tabs on for the purposes of this large-scale revision.
We may finish debating it, declare whether it needs a calc or not and then move on, if everyone agrees.

Antvasima · Jun 19, 2025

Just a note that I do not have a problem with the 5-B statistics, but I have major problems with regular superheroes being scaled to High 1-B and upwards.

The_Impress · Jun 19, 2025

thx Saman, I was gonna make a summarizing post but mine was moar long-winded.

But yeah, most of these feats, even if we act like they're legit, with exception to maybe the Thing feat barely scale to the rest of the cast anyways, they're power-ups or belong to characters randomly placed in 5-B for no reason, with higher scaling.

I still disagree vehemently to using the Thing feat anyways, the arguments against it are based on the idea that every single millisecond in the Low 5-B blast being a Low 5-B blast and the entire scene of Sue having to save his ass being treated as pointless (Suig's arguments for it are just a "no its not" with honestly zero arguments expanding on it, so genuinely think its not productive to continue that argument chain). Also even if we ignore all that and treat this all as legit, it's still a single Low 5-B feat scaling to all of the cast.

Suigetsuhyugs · Jun 19, 2025

SamanPatou said:
Ok, to try and summarize:

Thing's Low 5-B feat: Legit. may need a calc (?) is it an "at most" feat (?) is it consistent or can it be used for scaling chains, aka everyone who matches and/or defeats the Thing?

He doesn't seem to be actually damaged, I guess anyone who can actually break The Thing might scale

SamanPatou said:
Hyperion and Gladiator: Legit, but they already scale much higher, so it can't be used for lower tiers scaling, if I get it right

Hyperion: Legit, but scales to no one of the characters whose tier we are already discussing.

Gladiator does scale much higher but also not really because his tier varies with confidence, as for Hyperion he has multiple versions ranging from tier 6 to tier 1, the version that is scaling to this feat is currently scales to 5-B

SamanPatou said:
Gilgamesh: Legit, but lower than 5-B and he scales to higher characters anyway, same situation as Hyperion and Gladiator.

He dpesn't have a page but Ikaris does and he scales to 5-B

SamanPatou said:
Human Torch: Possibly legit, but unlikely scales to physicals + it's once again a max output feat, so very hard to scale generally + there is no scaling to Namor in said story because of a lack of a fight.

To be fair this feat was made early in his career as a super hero so he should probably upscale that.

Suigetsuhyugs · Jun 19, 2025

The_Impress said:
I still disagree vehemently to using the Thing feat anyways, the arguments against it are based on the idea that every single millisecond in the Low 5-B blast being a Low 5-B blast and the entire scene of Sue having to save his ass being treated as pointless (Suig's arguments for it are just a "no its not" with honestly zero arguments expanding on it, so genuinely think its not productive to continue that argument chain). Also even if we ignore all that and treat this all as legit, it's still a single Low 5-B feat scaling to all of the cast.

That's not what I said.
Doom says Galactus attack is Low 5-B-->The Thing was hit by the attack-->The Thing was fine-->Doom says he is surprised The Thing survived
What I said is that from the moment he was first hit to the moment Doom shows his surprise that was Low 5-B. If Doom claims the attack is Low 5-B believing for that reason The Thing should die, but shows his surprise that he was fine that means The Thing was hit with Low 5-B energy.

Maverick_Zero_X · Jun 19, 2025

I disagree with the Thing's feat being illegitimate for Suig's and Qaw's reasons and am neutral on the Human Torch's feat. Agree that the other feats (Gilgamesh/Hyperion/Gladiator) should be disregarded for scaling.

The_Impress · Jun 19, 2025

Suigetsuhyugs said:
That's not what I said.
Doom says Galactus attack is Low 5-B-->The Thing was hit by the attack-->The Thing was fine-->Doom says he is surprised The Thing survived
What I said is that from the moment he was first hit to the moment Doom shows his surprise that was Low 5-B. If Doom claims the attack is Low 5-B believing for that reason The Thing should die, but shows his surprise that he was fine that means The Thing was hit with Low 5-B energy.

it's reliant on every single portion of that attack being Low 5-B, rather than that entire beam as a whole being Low 5-B. He doesn't tank the entire blast.

The_Impress · Jun 19, 2025

Suigetsuhyugs said:
He dpesn't have a page but Ikaris does and he scales to 5-B

Ikaris' page should be deleted. I know because I made the page early on when I joined and there was zero research on it lol.

And for reference Hyperion isn't 5-B through scaling, he's 5-B through his own feats. All of his fights with his tier-mates, are where he is pretty much >>> everyone he fights.

SamanPatou · Jun 19, 2025

Suigetsuhyugs said:
He doesn't seem to be actually damaged, I guess anyone who can actually break The Thing might scale

Wasn't he about to die, though? Which is why Sue had to rescue him.

Suigetsuhyugs said:
Gladiator does scale much higher but also not really because his tier varies with confidence, as for Hyperion he has multiple versions ranging from tier 6 to tier 1, the version that is scaling to this feat is currently scales to 5-B

That's even worse, because then we can't use Gladiator as a reliable scaling chain link. That Hyperion seemingly scales to his own feats and upscales from others, so that's a dead end.

Suigetsuhyugs said:
He dpesn't have a page but Ikaris does and he scales to 5-B.

He scales to 5-B via Gilgamesh, though, making it redundant if Gilgamesh himself can't be used. Also, he compares himself to a held back Thor, who is stronger than him by leagues, apparently, so it may be unreliable as well because of the old "hollbacc'ing" Marvel gods suffer from.

Suigetsuhyugs said:
To be fair this feat was made early in his career as a super hero so he should probably upscale that.

It's still his maximum output, so I don't think it scales so easily to everyone.

The_Impress said:
it's reliant on every single portion of that attack being Low 5-B, rather than that entire beam as a whole being Low 5-B. He doesn't tank the entire blast.

We should calc the surface area.

The_Impress said:
Ikaris' page should be deleted. I know because I made the page early on when I joined and there was zero research on it lol.

Oh, rip, then.

Eseseso · Jun 19, 2025

I think Surface Area of the Thing's feat is the best option.

Suigetsuhyugs · Jun 19, 2025

SamanPatou said:
Wasn't he about to die, though? Which is why Sue had to rescue him.

I saw no indication of that, actually he states that he could have withstand without Sue's help, he doesn't seem to be actually damaged and he is still standing.That's even worse, because then we can't use Gladiator as a reliable scaling chain link. That Hyperion seemingly scales to

SamanPatou said:
his own feats and upscales from others, so that's a dead end.

This feat is regarding a statement that says they have planet level power while they were fighting is not about the scaling to any of them.

SamanPatou said:
He scales to 5-B via Gilgamesh, though, making it redundant if Gilgamesh himself can't be used. Also, he compares himself to a held back Thor, who is stronger than him by leagues, apparently, so it may be unreliable as well because of the old "hollbacc'ing" Marvel gods suffer from.

His profiles days he has scaling with a bunch of guys some of them don't have the holding back problem.

SamanPatou said:
It's still his maximum output, so I don't think it scales so easily to everyone.

I guess those who scale to Jonny's supernova would scale to that.

SamanPatou said:
Oh, rip, then.

The_Impress said:
Ikaris' page should be deleted. I know because I made the page early on when I joined and there was zero research on it lol.

I don't think it's delete level bad, I mean sure it's not good but it has scans for most of the abilities and has scans for AP too, seen a lot worse being accepted.

Armorchompy · Jun 19, 2025

The Thing feat is definitely not enough for a rating of its own. Even besides the issues it has, it's one feat and the rest has been fairly thoroughly removed from the scaling chain for one reason or another. Even if it's legit, it's an outlier now.

Eseseso · Jun 19, 2025

Armorchompy said:
The Thing feat is definitely not enough for a rating of its own. Even besides the issues it has, it's one feat and the rest has been fairly thoroughly removed from the scaling chain for one reason or another. Even if it's legit, it's an outlier now.

Yeah I forgot about this. If it's now an outlier then it shouldn't be used anyways. But first we should calc the actual surface area value of The Thing taking the blast.

The_Impress · Jun 20, 2025

I think we can go to feat collection then, maybe?

Like we can calc surface area or whatever, but imo if it's not even gonna be consistent what's the point, right? We can first try and see if there are any feats that are remotely in the reasonable multiplier range to it

The_Impress · Jun 22, 2025

So yeah, post planetary feats if you want to retain the tier, and we'll see what survives the scrutiny ig

SamanPatou · Jun 22, 2025

I think we should make another thread, or at least gather them in the discussion thread first.

Excellence616 · Jun 22, 2025

SamanPatou said:
I think we should make another thread, or at least gather them in the discussion thread first.

I agree with this.

The_Impress · Jun 24, 2025

Alright so someone close this thread

The Mah-vel Unfawking Thread Step Two: Planet? I barely know et!

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