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Ladybug vs Lapis Lazuli
- Thread starter Maverick_Zero_X
- Start date
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Tier: 9-B | High 7-C, Low 2-C Miraculous Ladybug | Varies, at least High 7-C physically, up to Low 2-C with Miraculous Ladybug, higher with unification
Key: Marinette | Ladybug | Guardian of the Miraculous
Ladybug has multiple keys in which she is High 7-C Physically, & she only varies based on which Miraculous she's using. (& if there's Unification involved, but IIRC, that has a Stamina cost, though IDK if it's 1-to-1.)
Varies (Depending on which miraculous she is using), at least Large Town level physically (Should be comparable to herself when using the Ladybug miraculous), up to Universe level+ with Miraculous Ladybug, higher with unification
Anyway, IIRC, her Season 3 self is cautious with using Miraculous haphazardly, so IDK if she'd be using any other than the Ladybug Miraculous normally. (Why the others are Standard when she usually has them in the Miracle Box at home.... I guess she can retrieve them from her Miraculous, so yeah?)
(Also, I'm surprised. Guardian of the Miraculous Ladybug isn't considered stronger than her previous keys?)
But yeah, point is, she has at least two keys where she's High 7-C, so you should specify.
Unification is unlikely to come up, &....
"Miraculous Ladybug: After defeating any villain, Ladybug throws the object she uses Lucky Charm into the air and yells "Miraculous Ladybug!"."
That's from the Notable Attacks/Techniques section.
"Ladybug throws the object she uses Lucky Charm into the air".... Good grief, what is this wording?
Anyway, point is, Miraculous Ladybug (the technique is Low 2-C for the scale of what it affects, similar to environmental destruction, except it's undoing effects of stuff caused by Miraculous.
I don't know of evidence it can undo stuff not caused by Miraculous powers, but without evidence it can undo things other than Miraculous power consequences, I would not consider the Low 2-C of the Miraculous Ladybug technique a relevant factor in this matchup.
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If nothing is said it's the strongest.
The keys account for all seasons, in some of them her lucky charm even gives her hints of which miraculous she needs, Marinetta uses the miraculous many times sometimes fusing them, some times finds someone to fight with her and we see some of the times but off panel she also uses them as needed. Overall in a 1 on 1 fight she is likely to use a different miraculous if she deems it necessary and since she has access to them through her Yo-Yo it makes sense to list them.
It is therefore "At least", we don't really have much reason to believe she got significantly stronger overtime, but she should became stronger when using other miraculous
Of course it can we have no reason to believe that their powers are in anyway limited to effects of other miraculous, you don't see Cat Noir only destroying miraculous related stuff either, and not all their villains should actually be miraculous stuff as for example New York also has villains and superheroes whose powers aren't miraculous related.
There is some content from newer seasons there, for example the Rain dragon has a video from season 6, regarding feats and whatnot that is harder as it requires calculations and she has enough evidence for her current tier she doesn't need further support.
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Lapis: 142 Kilotons [Large Town level]
Ladybug: 151.025 Kilotons (Large Town level)
So Ladybug has a small advantage. Lapis doesn't seem to have intelligence tier so she likely loses in that too since Marinetta is gifted. Overall I don't really see any ability Marinetta can't counter other than the possibility of Lapis lifting all of the oceans and throws it at Ladybug but I think that's restricted right?
Ladybug: 151.025 Kilotons (Large Town level)
So Ladybug has a small advantage. Lapis doesn't seem to have intelligence tier so she likely loses in that too since Marinetta is gifted. Overall I don't really see any ability Marinetta can't counter other than the possibility of Lapis lifting all of the oceans and throws it at Ladybug but I think that's restricted right?
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Updated the OP specify her second key/Base Ladybug.
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Thank you very much.
Regarding the ML undoing stuff, I could swear there were instances of it being said it can only undo consequences of Miraculous stuff, & it's not like it's the Ladybug Miraculous's only powers. (Also, most of the problems in Miraculous New York happened because of people being affected by the Miraculous of Freedom.)
Anyway, I guess Ladybug outskills/outsmarts, though don't Gems have stuff about being practically Immortal?
Gem Physiology (Grants Regeneration (High-Mid), Immortality (Types 1 and 3),
Stamina: Limitless so long as her gem isn't damaged or destroyed
I'm not sure if Ladybug has dealt with foes with such complications, but I wouldn't be surprised if she has.
Though in this case, there's no Akumatized object, & I don't know of much that would tell her there isn't one; Would Lapis have reason -Or opportunity, considering the flooding modus operandi?- to tell Ladybug that?
One tell might be that Akumatized villains tend to announce that "I am not X, I am Y!", when called by their non-Akumatized identity, but Lapis's regular self IS what Ladybug would be fighting.
So Ladybug can't exhaust her, it's dubious if she could kill her (Unless she gets the Cat Miraculous.)
I guess she could break the gem, though she'd have to find that out, & it's a small target against someone who spams hydrokinesis -Tons of water would be a big obstacle to getting to the gem- AND she's seemingly outlifted.
Lifting Strength: Varies (Depending on which miraculous she is using), at least Class G, higher with unification
(Other keys omitted for brevity.)
Lifting Strength: At least Superhuman Physically (Was able to carry Bismuth, who was in full plate armor, with no issue), Varies (Depending the quantity of water she is manipulating), up to Class Z with Hydrokinesis (Lifted all of Earth's oceans)
Outlifted by over 9 orders of magnitude, at that.
Unless using Miraculous Ladybug, in which case THAT can outlift Lapis Lazuli, but even putting aside the notion of if she can or can't undo non-Miraculous-caused stuff, she has to spawn the object & then toss it upwards & say it every time, & Miraculous herself can't outlift the hydrokinesis, only the ML superpower; Even if she can do it underwater with Aquabug, it's very telegraphed, & she'd likely need to do it every time she needs to defend herself, & LL's attack range is huge.
Not to mention can & does LL use water to crush foes? I haven't watched SU in a while.
If she can & does, could she not just make a water hand & crush Ladybug's spine, gruesome as that may be? (IDK if she'd lead with that. Is she even familiar enough with human physiology, being a Gem, to do that early enough?)
In theory, with Aquabug, Ladybug can swim in the water, but since it outlifts her by several orders of magnitude, any moving water is going to be at the least, slamming her to do the ground, preventing her from making any approach that way.
If LL starts with hydrokinesis spam early, Ladybug is going to be basically outlifted AND prevented from moving; Very troublesome if she needs to break LL's gem or something. MAYBE she could go spacebug & spin her yo-yo; If a pillar of water rushed at her like that, could she use her AP advantage in such a manner to be able to approach in spite of the massive LS disparity?
In theory, MAYBE Ladybug could try to confine her, but I have no idea what with.
Delusionaltx2
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Whats lapris's ap value?
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Apologies if I obfuscated it with 1 or more of my replies.
Delusionaltx2
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Nah ur gud.
Anyways what stops lapris from making multiple LL clones to jump her here?
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I'm a bit distracted so I'm unsure how much depth (Lol) I can go into AtM, but....
Are the clones destructible?
FWIW, Ladybug is very skilled.
Intelligence: Gifted. An expert tactician and observant. Not only capable of using the most unusual things as a tool to win a battle (even beyond her Lucky Charm) but also exploit the environment and her foes' weaknesses as much as possible to her favor, making her well known for being able to come with the right plan at the right time. Has years of experience fighting against several types of villains with all kinds of abilities. A natural leader and a master at the usage of her yo-yo. Excels at fashion design, having her talent been praised and referred to as “exceptional” by Audrey Bourgeois, the harshest fashion critic; additionally being sly enough to subtly hide her signature in each one of her designs to avoid any sort of stealing. Skilled at sketching and baking as well as showcasing a decent amount of talent in areas like fencing, singing and skating despite not being used to them.
I wouldn't be surprised if this wouldn't be the first time she's fought off multiple opponents at once.
Although, as mentioned, except when using the Miraculous Ladybug technique/superpower, she's vastly outlifted, Aquabug or not, she could probably be pinned if not crushed by 1 or more deluges from Lapis. (Assuming each clone is equal to the base.)
She may also waste time wondering about Cat Noir, since she'd be in another scenario where she can't get a hold of him, but he USUALLY shows up....
Still, since she can take the other Miraculous out of her Yoyo.
....(Though strangely, we list all of the Miraculous in her Standard Equipment (Except seemingly the Butterfly & Peacock Miraculous.), despite that even when she is Guardian, Cat Noir still has the Cat Miraculous, Bunnyx has the Rabbit Miraculous & avoids involvement by time travelling, & later in the series , she assigns all the Miraculous to trusted individuals, AFAIK.)
Also, maddeningly, many of the Miraculous & their users don't have profiles yet.
Point is, several of the Miraculous offer potent potential solutions to the issue, although it may be a bit improper to use stuff not documented on the profiles, since undocumented stuff hasn't been accepted & whatnot.
There is at least some info in Ladybug's Guardian of the Miraculous Powers & Abilities key's tabber:
Ladybug
Marinette Dupain-Cheng is one of the two titular main protagonists (alongside Adrien Agreste) of Miraculous: Tales of Ladybug & Cat Noir and Miraculous World. She is a former student in Miss Bustier's class at Collège Françoise Dupont in Paris, France, and a budding fashion designer who wants to...
vsbattles.fandom.com
But for a quick rundown of the other Miraculous:
Spoilerific note: Late in Season 5, for some characters, Ladybug included, the one use of a Miraculous's power per transformation limitation ceases to apply; Powers can be spammed without re-transforming, & seemingly with less, if any need to feed the Kwami afterwards, although that's likely still good practice; Point is, past late enough in Season 5, a Miraculous's powers can be spammed freely.
Quite notable here if applicable.
Cat Miraculous:
-Dubious she should have it since it's usually held by Cat Noir who she almost always works with & practically never knows the secret identity of.
+Cataclysm enables Deconstruction & Power Nullification (1 layer) on hand's touch, 1 use per instance of invoking the power.
Fox Miraculous: Very good illusion creation.
Dragon Miraculous: Able to turn into Air, Water, or Electricity, as well as control the weather.
There's also the Mouse Miraculous (Shrinking & Duplication both at once.), but I don't think that's (as) useful here, but potentially. I also don't know if it affects stats. Probably?
Generally speaking, most powers are one use per invocation. Though this limitation may not apply.
Also, for SOME REASON, this tabber of hers doesn't cover these Miraculous (Among several others, so IDK how applicable they are.), despite their users having profiles:
Bee: Paralysis inducement on contact with weapon.
Turtle: Barrier creation, including semi-remotely to contain a target, the barrier has several resistances & is durable, though IIRC, it may be able to be broken; Lapis's LS advantage may be relevant.
It's a bit painful because I know there are several other Miraculous that could offer other potent potential solutions, but IDK if they can be used with the state of the profile(s).
Sorry for the delayed reply.
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Apparently the clones will either simply regenerate or further multiply from standard attacks, but Steven was able to fully disperse them with an omnidirectional shockwave.
(Though if Marinette manages to defeat one instance of a clone idk what's stopping Lapis from spawning more)
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Hmmm. IDK if her Attack Speed is greater enough than the Travel or Combat Speed or whatever here, but maybe she could imitate that by circling her Yo-Yo, since it has a VERY extendable string, & she has a lot of experience spinning it.
Get a wide circle or the right angle.... She has a lot of Yoyo tricks, I'm sure.
True.
BTW, since you're a staff & ostensibly invested, do you have any opinion to give on the matter of the undocumented or incompletely Miraculous?
For example, the users of the Snake, Horse & Monkey Miraculous have profiles, if Ladybug's GotM key gives her access to their Miraculous, the powers from those could be very influential.
(To say nothing of the ones just practically not documented at all on our Wiki, like the Ox, Tiger or Rooster Miraculous.)
Delusionaltx2
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yes but they can just regenerate
These clones would have the same amount of skill she has since the water clones are capable of mimicking their real counterparts
with the giant LS advantage i'm seeing, I'm pretty confident she gets crushed by water pressure alone
What can they do here?
I can see this deleting the water clones but what does she do is lapiz just hurls water at her?Also, maddeningly, many of the Miraculous & their users don't have profiles yet.
Point is, several of the Miraculous offer potent potential solutions to the issue, although it may be a bit improper to use stuff not documented on the profiles, since undocumented stuff hasn't been accepted & whatnot.
There is at least some info in Ladybug's Guardian of the Miraculous Powers & Abilities key's tabber:
Ladybug
Marinette Dupain-Cheng is one of the two titular main protagonists (alongside Adrien Agreste) of Miraculous: Tales of Ladybug & Cat Noir and Miraculous World. She is a former student in Miss Bustier's class at Collège Françoise Dupont in Paris, France, and a budding fashion designer who wants to...
But for a quick rundown of the other Miraculous:
Spoilerific note: Late in Season 5, for some characters, Ladybug included, the one use of a Miraculous's power per transformation limitation ceases to apply; Powers can be spammed without re-transforming, & seemingly with less, if any need to feed the Kwami afterwards, although that's likely still good practice; Point is, past late enough in Season 5, a Miraculous's powers can be spammed freely.
Quite notable here if applicable.
Cat Miraculous:
-Dubious she should have it since it's usually held by Cat Noir who she almost always works with & practically never knows the secret identity of.
+Cataclysm enables Deconstruction & Power Nullification (1 layer) on hand's touch, 1 use per instance of invoking the power.
how do her illusions work.
This is borderline useless since lapiz is like 6-A with water and humiliates in LS
Wouldn't she have a harder time outpacing or navagating through the water?
Some of them seem useful (catnoirs and the fox one) so thats nice
feel like thats the profile being flawed...anyway i think its still fair to cover them as long as thee's some evidence that she can and does use them.
can this neg elemental intangibility?
yeah this is useless
Thats fine but I would like to hear how the more useful ones work?
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Can't answer everything now while I'm on the phone so I will just throw the main points of content.
Ladybug's most standard fighting style is about her finding the opponents weakness and make use of that, even in cases where she can't find it right away her lucky charm gives her tips of what or where it is, so she would find Lapis's crystal and it shouldn't even take her much time.
Regarding lifting strength, her class Z feat shouldn't even be usable since that is the reason she has multi continental attack potency and the OP restricts them to tier 7, and even then the profile says it took her hours to prepare the class Z feat so I don't think kit would be usable in the fight regardless. And if something Ladybug outlifts Lapis physical strength greatly so as soon as Ladybug uses her yoyo to restrain Lapis which is actually a standard tactic of Ladybug, there isn't much Lapis can do.
Also and this is more curiosity than actually an argument, assuming that Lapis throws an ocean at Ladybug to try crushing her, how would that work? I mean ladybug is a normal sized human normally there is no way she would actually feel the weight of the whole body of water instead she should only feel the pressure of the small part of water than actually hit her.
Ladybug's most standard fighting style is about her finding the opponents weakness and make use of that, even in cases where she can't find it right away her lucky charm gives her tips of what or where it is, so she would find Lapis's crystal and it shouldn't even take her much time.
Regarding lifting strength, her class Z feat shouldn't even be usable since that is the reason she has multi continental attack potency and the OP restricts them to tier 7, and even then the profile says it took her hours to prepare the class Z feat so I don't think kit would be usable in the fight regardless. And if something Ladybug outlifts Lapis physical strength greatly so as soon as Ladybug uses her yoyo to restrain Lapis which is actually a standard tactic of Ladybug, there isn't much Lapis can do.
Also and this is more curiosity than actually an argument, assuming that Lapis throws an ocean at Ladybug to try crushing her, how would that work? I mean ladybug is a normal sized human normally there is no way she would actually feel the weight of the whole body of water instead she should only feel the pressure of the small part of water than actually hit her.
They can't, Ladybug's YoYo has power mimick resistance and I'm pretty sure that none of the Kwami's powers can be mimicked considering that it's stated in the show that they can't copy other Kwami's concept.
Delusionaltx2
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That just means they wouldn't be able to mimick the kawami related abilities. Things like physicals and skill are skill replicable.
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Her physicals comes from the suit that is made by the powers of the kwami, if you mean to copy Marinneta's normal physical stats sure but they would be thousands of times weaker than Marinette with the suit
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Distracted, so answering the shorter, possibly less complex reply first, sorry if anyone minds that.
Plus, you don't need a whole ocean to envelop a huge range that's impractical to evade.
Though IDK the actual geometry/maths on the measure of how much water & in what distribution, etc.
From LL's Notable Attacks/Techniques section:
Hydromimicry: Lapis can use her control over water to create flawless, powerful water clones of her enemies. The clones appear to possess the same fighting styles as the originals, as demonstrated by water Garnet's strength and water Amethyst's constant shape-shifting.
(Partial quote).
From there in particular because.... Lapis Lazuli doesn't have Power Mimicry on her profile.
& from what I'm reading, it doesn't sound like she would have PM; Her clones imitated fighting styles, matched strength & shapeshifted, which can generally be replicated with stats & hydrokinesis, I'd assume.
So I'd assume she could copy Ladybug's fighting style & some of the physical traits, but, just as an example, I doubt a water clone's "Yo-yo" would be anywhere near as Indestructible as Ladybug's is. (Not to mention it would probably be more limited in range since while a string made of Earth's water could run out, IDK if Ladybug's yo-yo's string can.)
Also, Strike Back's Power Mimicry was also Power Nullification/Theft/Absorption, but point is, it's different from what LL does since it's not the same kind of Power Mimicry, even if we were to say LL has PM.
True, although whether this is relevant may depend on how much Lapis's LS actually is & other factors to be discussed, I think.
May want to ask the OP if this is usable &/or if the OP's conditions should be changed, then.
Quoting your post because of the above matter. Opinion, please, if you'll forgive my asking, please?
I again think this may have the issue of approach & difficulty depending on LS since water might push her back. Even a 7-C amount of water should be huge.
I'm assuming Lapis could put a huge amount into a column & then send it at her with 7-C amounts of force or such?? Very fast & forcefully moving water.
Plus, you don't need a whole ocean to envelop a huge range that's impractical to evade.
Though IDK the actual geometry/maths on the measure of how much water & in what distribution, etc.
I'd call this dubious. The matter of the Kwamis being concepts that there can only be one of being seemingly a rule of that reality, IDK aside, Lapis seems to be doing a different thing:
From LL's Notable Attacks/Techniques section:
Hydromimicry: Lapis can use her control over water to create flawless, powerful water clones of her enemies. The clones appear to possess the same fighting styles as the originals, as demonstrated by water Garnet's strength and water Amethyst's constant shape-shifting.
(Partial quote).
From there in particular because.... Lapis Lazuli doesn't have Power Mimicry on her profile.
& from what I'm reading, it doesn't sound like she would have PM; Her clones imitated fighting styles, matched strength & shapeshifted, which can generally be replicated with stats & hydrokinesis, I'd assume.
So I'd assume she could copy Ladybug's fighting style & some of the physical traits, but, just as an example, I doubt a water clone's "Yo-yo" would be anywhere near as Indestructible as Ladybug's is. (Not to mention it would probably be more limited in range since while a string made of Earth's water could run out, IDK if Ladybug's yo-yo's string can.)
Also, Strike Back's Power Mimicry was also Power Nullification/Theft/Absorption, but point is, it's different from what LL does since it's not the same kind of Power Mimicry, even if we were to say LL has PM.
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Delusionaltx2
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Oh yeah forgot about that.
What about lapiz just throwing a lot of water at her?
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This runs into the seemingly still unresolved hurdle of the OP having specified both at High 7-C, but Lapis has tiers based on being able to attack with more water (Presuming it's not any smaller quantity of water with equivalently high force.), so it may need to be determined it the match conditions need to be revised because of higher-than-specified tier via high water. Her LS also seems correlated because Lapis gets it for lifting a lot of water.
Also, FWIW, if it's water that isn't ragdolling Ladybug, she can probably swim in it just fine via her Aquabug transformation, or fly away/around it via Spacebug, though IDK if she'd use Spacebug for in-atmosphere flight. (Though I could see this match possibly having some stuff go to around orbit or so.)
Delusionaltx2
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I feel like its important to point out that for LS, lapis is lifting the water herself instead of powering herself with water to lift more water so i'm pretty sure it still translates to her LS.
Again if the LS is this big a gap and lapis is directing it at her then she dies to water pressure.
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By which I assume you mean to say, Lapis could take any quantity (Even just like, a swimming pool's full?) of water & via her superior LS & crush Ladybug with it?
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BTW, on the Power Mimicry note, what about the times fake Ladybugs were made via the Butterfly Miraculous?
Heck, wasn't there a Ladybug Sentimonster thanks to the Peacock Miraculous?
Though, FWIW, they generally didn't seem to have ALL the powers; Their Lucky Charms would conjure weapons, & didn't seem to come with the Precognition & being guaranteed what they needed to win, unless it was literally their only shot & they lacked the skill. But we didn't see them having visions or clues on what to do like Ladybug normally gets with her own Lucky Charm, IIRC.
Not sure about other differences, though.
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Even I'm not sure I understood correctly but it seems like those instances they created something different that just has some similar properties, but not the actual powers of the kwami.
Delusionaltx2
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yeah (although tbh i haven't seen Su in ages so maybe i'm wrong ig)
From what I remember this only effectted her ap
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To clarify Lapis only reaches High 6-A AP when manipulating massive quantities of water (specifically entire oceans). Thing is it's not in-character for her to attack opponents with an ocean's worth of water, so it's essentially a moot point in versus threads (she only ever controls that much water when attempting to fashion a giant tower into space).
High 6-A aside it's worth pointing out Lapis' hydrokinesis can restrain characters with Class G strength according to her page
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Delusionaltx2
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Then what stops her from restraining her.
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Quoted post content for context:
If by "they", you mean:
Cat Noir: The deuteragonist of the series; Its full title is literally "Miraculous: Tales of Ladybug & Cat Noir.". He's basically Ladybug's equal in skills, stats, etc. Usual holder of the Cat Miraculous, which, as I mentioned later in my post can do destruction, Deconstruction & PN (1 layer), & other stuff on contact after invocation via Cataclysm. However, Cat Noir is almost certainly not showing up because SBA. Ladybug might expect him to show up because she usually does, & their Miraculous tools (While the the holders are transformed.) can function as phones for messages, chatting, etc., so she might be wondering where her most reliable & constant ally is.
Cat Noir being a thing is why the Cat Miraculous wouldn't normally be in the Miracle Box, but if she has access to it, it could be a game changer.
Butterfly Miraculous: This is the Miraculous used by the main villain of the franchise. The general gist is it grants the ability to sense & read emotions as well as use Telepathy over a wide range, & by sending an Akuma Butterfly to someone, the Akuma can go into an emotionally significant object to the target to Akumatize them. This can be resisted by strong will or strong positive emotions, but considering Lapis has emotional issues, it may be especially potent. The Butterfly Miraculous user can also influence them:
- Mind Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, Morality Manipulation (Able to control those who she Akumatizes and twist their personalities through their negative feelings, Comparable to Hawkmoth)
The Akumatized transforms into a Superhero/Supervillain (The Butterfly Miraculous CAN be used for good, but....) for as long as the Akumatized object(s) remain in-tact for the Akuma to inhabit. If the object is broken, but the Akuma goes unpurified (Which Ladybug normally does.), the Akumatized form can be reasserted.
Wordy excerpt from the Miraculous Wiki because for some reason I couldn't find this on the main profile for the Butterfly Miraculous's user:
If an Akuma is removed from one's object but goes uncaptured and unpurified, it will multiply before returning to the Butterfly Miraculous owner and entering the cane. The copies of the Akuma will subsequently fly around and indiscriminately seek out other people. Any person that makes contact with the Akuma clones will turn into exact physical copies of the original host's superpowered form and be frozen like statues in this state. When the akuma's former host manage to regain the intense emotions that transformed them to begin with, the original akuma will leave the cane and return to transform them once again, and the aforementioned duplicates will awaken and be under the full control of the original, forming a massive clone army.
But if she did have it, it'd be a very potent option against Lapis, since....
"Weaknesses: Enough damage to Lapis's physical form can revert her back to her vulnerable gem form which can be broken and destroyed, Lapis is emotionally fragile and has a hair-trigger temper due to years of isolation inside of the Gem Mirror. Lapis feels uncomfortable with being a captain/leader, due to some unknown event from her past, as revealed by Jasper. Her powers vary depending on how much water there is in the environment."
Lapis specifically has being emotionally fragile as a weakness, & even if she has a Resistance to Empathic Manipulation, it has 2 other kinds of Mind Manipulation plus some other powers, for what that's worth. (It also has 1 layer of Corruption, but that's because it can overpower the Magical Charms via Mega-Kumas, which are Purification, I think, & that's from the Butterfly Miraculous's user, IDK if Ladybug could/would do that, too.)
TL;DR - Ladybug has basically never had the Butterfly Miraculous AFAIK (Again, I have not started S6) but if she did it could go after Lapis's noted weakness of her emotions with multiple forms of mind manipulation to turn her into a superpowered form that Ladybug could make ally with Ladybug as part of the Butterfly Miraculous's initiation of the Akumatization.
Peacock Miraculous: Similar to the Butterfly Miraculous, this spends most of the series being held by a villain, so Ladybug basically never has access to it. I can't even recall if it was ever used by or for her. It allows making Amoks (Feathers) which can go into emotionally-charged objects to create a Sentimonster, an object or creature that aids the creator &/or an Akumatized villain. Also, for a long time, it's in a damaged state, which means using it all but ensures a slow (Seemingly months long.) deterioration of health via what is seemingly an incurable disease. Though the severity could be because of how it was used fairly frequently for a time. The Peacock Miraculous gets fixed later, but remains inaccessible to Ladybug for other reasons, & with stuff that comes up that deters using it.
Since Ladybug's never used it & I'm not even sure what Sentimonster would be made/by for her, it's hard to say what it'd even do if she did use it.
Rabbit Miraculous: Let me just quote part of Bunnyx's profile's section on her Powers & Abilities.
- Portal Creation
- Time Travel(Capable of creating portals to every place, at any time period)
- BFR (Can drop her foes in in different ages and/or different locations)
- Dimensional Travel
- Pocket Reality Manipulation
- Clairvoyance (By entering into her burrow dimension, she's able to see present, past and future events at every place)
So I think you can understand why Ladybug usually wouldn't have The Rabbit Miraculous, & why even if she did, she'd be hesitant to pull it out of the Yo-yo's Dimensional Storage... but if she did, it'd probably make this pretty unfair against Lapis; Just time travel, scry, open a portal & yeet her into when Earth is a smoldering ball of lava because it isn't fully formed or the sun went supernova or something.
Trusted individuals: The friends of Ladybug's civillian identity. Probably not involved because SBA.
The Cat Miraculous can do large scale environmental destruction, in fact, that's one if its main uses & points of renown in the series; The Kwami powered by it, in canon is responsible for legendary calamities because Kwamis have semi-uncontrollable, disastrous side effects when their powers are used while not in a Miraculous.
Anyway, point is, if there's a mass of water coming, contact with the hand that has Cataclysm active could initiate a spreading destruction/deconstruction of said mass of water.
Also, strictly speaking, Ladybug would be Lady Noir if she has the Cat Miraculous unified with the Ladybug Miraculous, & on that note, extra Miraculous worn at one time incurrs extra Stamina penalties per extra Miraculous used/worn. However, she can probably tolerate that:
Ladybug's Stamina justification:
Stamina: Superhuman (Capable of running long distances without stopping even in her civilian form. Stated to be the most resilient Miraculous holder both physically and mentally,[8] making her comparable to Kim, who won the County Athletics) | Superhuman (At least as resilient as Aspik, who was unfazed after rewinding his fight against Desperada 25,913 times, making up to several months according to Adrien.[24] Has worn sixteen Miraculouses and activated four at the same time when only carrying two is considered extremely dangerous, although this briefly brought her to her knees.[8] Spent an entire half-day of school "saving the world" without any sign of exhaustion. Quickly shock off the pain of having one of her arms being turned into intangible pixels.[32] Miraculous transformations can last thousands of years as seen with Bunnyx) | Superhuman (Comparable to before)
Probably not as impressive as Lapis Lazuli's Stamina, but the point is extra Miraculous use Stamina penalty MIGHT be a factor, but probably not in Ladybug's case.
From Ladybug's P&A's GotM tabber:
- With Fox Miraculous
- Expert Flute Wielder
- Illusion Creation (Able to create large scale illusions[8])
- Duplication (Capable of creating Illusory clones[8])
- Sound Manipulation (Should be comparable to Rena Rouge, who performed a sound illusion)
- Shapeshifting (Able to disguise as others with her illusions[8])
- Minor Cloth Manipulation (Miraculous Holders are able to change their suits at will, changed her appearance to become Rena Furtive)
Ladybug also has Stealth Mastery in both her civillian form & as Ladybug, with justifications for each.
& unlike the previous Miraculous, this is a lot more likely to be a Miraculous she'd have regular access to.
Since the goal is getting to Lapis's gem, &/or restraining her, large scale, versatile illusions could help with this.
Turn into air or electricity. Evade by flying, or travel as electricity through the water to get to Lapis & electrocute her &/or return to normal to attack.
I don't know if it affects Speed, though there might be ways it could work around. (Ex: All of them go Spacebug & fly away from it, forcing Lapis to divide her water supply if she wants to go after them all, & the more clones there are, the smaller a target they are.)
Whole verse page is flawed, most content after Season 3 doesn't seem to be covered.
Decided to look it up on the Miraculous Wiki. Wordy excerpt follows:
"Venom does not need to sting a victim on their bare skin, it will be equally effective if the victim is stung on their clothing. It will even successfully paralyze the victim when it's used on a Miraculous user's magical super suit. Venom will also work if the victim possesses elemental intangibility, such as Style Queen's body being made of gold glitter, thus implying that it could work on a Dragon Miraculous holder's elemental transformations. In "Deflagration", it's revealed that the power can also work on spirit beings, such as the Kwamis. Additionally, someone under the effects of Venom will have a small, glowing circular mark in the likeness of an insect bite on the part of their body where they were stung. The insect bite mark will disappear once the effects of Venom wear off.
Venom can even immobilize objects, as seen in "Ephemeral" when Vesperia immobilized Moolak's flying safe. However, it is possible that the safe was actually part of the villain's body. Although, the villain was heard laughing even after Vesperia used the power on his safe."
There may be duration issues since how long it affects seems to vary based possibly on whether the target is human or not, among other factors:
It is unclear exactly how long the paralysis lasts. It's possible that, like with Cataclysm, Venom may have different effects when used on different targets, or that the duration of the power is up to the user:
- When Queen Bee used Venom on a human, the effect wore off while she still had a couple of minutes before detransforming.
- When Vesperia used it on a Sentimonster it remained immobile, even when she detransformed, retransformed, and activated the power again.
- When Monarch used it on a person wearing a charged Miraculous, Bunnyx, she remained paralyzed even after Monarch released Pollen and couldn't move again until the Miraculous Ladybug undid all the damage. Although Bunnyx was in the Burrow the whole time and Monarch released Pollen when he was out in the regular world.
- When Monarch used it on Cat Noir in "Illusion", the hero was unparalyzed when the villain detransformed. It could be that unlike Bunnyx, that both were in the same world/plane of existence, or Monarch only wanted the condition to last until he could steal Cat Noir's ring, but thanks to Ladybug he ran out of time.
I'd disagree. Shell-Ter can buy time. Even if it does end up breakable by Lapis. Buying time may be useful for setting up illusions, thinking, checking surroundings for clue from Lucky Charm on how to use the item LC summons.
Also, there may be merit to putting Lapis in a Shell-ter that Ladybug can dispell later, since she may not realize what it is & become disoriented &/or divert some of her water to herself, as well as prevent Lapis relocating her own body. Plus, IIRC, bigger Shell-ters can be made, so it may be able to contain some of the water clones, & if Lapis is working with a finite water supply....
Hopefully what I covered above sated your curiousity.
Since using for a match's conclusion, material not currently accepted & implemented onto the profiles, could cause the invalidation of that match involving such materials, I'm a bit hesitant to bring up the Miraculous that are less documented on our VSBW Wiki, even if that MAY be due to negligence; For all I know, ML is stuck in CRT limbo or something.
Also, there's like, at least a half dozen Miraculous I didn't cover, plus probably another dozen I don't know about because they were introduced in the season I haven't seen yet. According to the Miraculous Wiki:
"There is currently a total of thirty-six known Miraculouses. Nineteen of them belong to the Chinese Miracle Box and are currently in Paris, France. The other seventeen belong to the Native American Miracle Box and are currently in New York, U.S.A..
Because of the existence of a Multiverse made of billions of different universes, there are multiple versions of each Miraculous in each of the many differents universes. Each Miraculous may be used by the counterparts of the same person who may adopt different superhero/supervillain identity or by different holders altogether."
In this thread, I have gone over the Cat, Butterfly, Peacock, Mouse, Rabbit, Fox, Turtle, Bee & Dragon Miraculouses. & probably a little about the Ladybug Miraculous itself, too, lol.
Maybe I could go over the Snake, Horse & Monkey Miraculous since they could be relevant & their users have profiles, & they plausibly could be used by Ladybug.
Sorry for the extremely delayed reply & making such a long post.
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Delusionaltx2
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Yeah but I remember asking as to how he needs to use deconstruction and power null, is it thought based?, is it a projectile? what is it?
personally feel like she should since by all accounts she'd have it if cat noir didn't have it in which I feel like we can just make this a situation in which she has it and he isn't using it for whatever reason. My point being that OP never restricted it and by SBA she should have it as long as its reasonable possible without prep or smth.
Does she use this in character? Also can't lapis just destroy the Akuma?
So its ooc...
If its OOC then i'm pretty sure by wiki standards she wouldn't use it.
By sba she should as long as it follows the rules and can make sense...just say she was given it or smth
Wouldn't that get restrained and potentially crushed?
oh then she can't use it then nvm
this seems haxy
With acrobatics i think she can reach her before water becomes an issue so yea i think she'd win if she had that
obv
how potent is the ED?
Mk
I'm asking how she activates this
hmm mk this looks promising...whats the range.
I agree although
Assuming she can actually do this then thats a genuine wincon then
both pages need work tbh
AAAnd now i'm voting ladybug
Nah its fine
Delusionaltx2
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Anyways as I said before I'm ladybug.
She seems to have solid ways to get to lapis's gem and end the fight
not to mention with the restriction + the fact she doesn't immediately bombard her with waterI think ladybug can pull through with acrobatics .
She seems to have solid ways to get to lapis's gem and end the fight
not to mention with the restriction + the fact she doesn't immediately bombard her with waterI think ladybug can pull through with acrobatics .
Arkansalter2
He/Him- 8,181
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Ummm... an issue..
You're mentioning all of this like she has them? This is ladybug key, not guardian of the miraculous key....
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Oh I'm dumb, I misread the post earlier.
So sorry.
....Crud, sorry for going so wordy about Miraculouses she likely won't use in this key.
So yeah, she'd have to rely on her acrobatics, Stealth Mastery, Supernatural Luck, the Lucky Charm.... Speaking of, doesn't it give her info about how to use the Lucky Charm, or is that all on her own Intelligence?
I'm not finding much on that in her Ladybug Key, but I'd presume it should apply if that's the case.
But if not, it wouldn't tell her she needs to go after the gem, she wouldn't know she needs to go after it. (Though she might be seeking out something like that since she's used to facing foes that have Akumatized objects, & may not realize Lapis isn't one.)
In theory, she can also overcome Lapis's LS with water via the Miraculous Ladybug technique.
I'll answer @Delusionaltx2 's recent questions in another post, even if not relevant.
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Like other Miraculous powers, initiated by Invocation, typically the name of the power.
As in, he says "Cataclysm" & then it's active until used, & as mentioned, activates on contact.
Cataclysm makes bubbling black energy energy appear over a specific hand of the user. For Cat Noir, it tends to be the hand he wears the ring bearing his Miraculous on it. When said hand makes contact with something, it initiates a destruction/Deconstruction effect.
For why it's layered, I'll post this justification.
- Deconstruction and Power Nullification (1 Layer; Negated power of the bee miraculous, a power that can immobilize the opponent, Cataclysm deconstructed and power nullified Shell-Ter, a power that has resistance to Deconstruction and Power Nullification)
Power Nullification is because as the Justification says, it's overcome stuff with resistances to the powers Cataclysm possesses, with said resistances of the affected having been demonstrated by the affected against powers other than Cataclysm.
Well, it's only Standard Equipment in GotM key, which apparently isn't what being used, & I was apparently stupid in that regard. I was distracted. Sorry.
& she has no Optional Equipment section FOR SOME REASON.
There are some occasions where Ladybug &/or Cat Noir have used each other's Miraculouses, though these are very rare, much rarer than the involvement of others, since Ladybug & Cat Noir (& thus, their secret identities.) are the main villain's highest priority due to story-related reasons, unlike the other heroes. They basically never know each others' secret identities & a Miraculous being removed from its user detransforms them.
So there's very few circumstances where the Cat Miraculous is freely available (Ladybug doesn't know the identity of who holds it, & he doesn't know hers.) unless something's gone wrong or they have & need a way to securely & temporarily switch powers without revealing much.
Yeah, I only went over it because I thought it was GotM key being used in this match, & for some reason, GotM Key's P&A tabber lists the Butterfly Miraculous's powers.
Despite that she basically never has it & never uses it, AFAIK; If she has The Butterfly Miraculous, the main villain doesn't have their powers.
OoC may be an understatement since she basically never has it; With all the grief it's caused them, she might hesitate to use it. (Then again, she worked with a user of it who was good & from another reality on a certain occasion.)
Yeah, Sentimonsters can be very durable & whatnot, & many are mobile, so one might be able to evade being restrained/crushed, but it depends a lot on individual & circumstance what the Sentimonster is.
& yeah, for most of the series, she doesn't have access to it, or doesn't have reason to use it; Her Yo-Yo's dimensional storage reaches into the Miracle Box, but IIRC, the Peacock Miraculous is almost always in the villain's holding. IDK why Ladybug would have access to it, even setting aside the risks of using it that are kind of too long-term to matter in a match.
Yes, The Rabbit Miraculous is indeed haxy, there's good reason Ladybug & Cat Noir avoid involving it at all unless necessary.
Fair.
From part of Cat Noir's AP section:
Unknown (His Miraculous has been claimed to be able to destroy anything), At least Mountain level (Broke Pixelator's Dimension. According to Tikki, Plagg's Cataclysm can destroy all of Paris), likely far higher (Equal in power with Ladybug's Miraculous Ladybug, which could put the Earth back into orbit and repair the moon. In Miraculous Adventures, he was able to one-shot Trash Krakken, who'd required the biggest burst of energy ever output on Earth in order to be defeated. Responsible for the extinction of the dinosaurs and the sinking of Atlantis. As well as being said to be the only thing able to destroy an invulnerable Miraculous) with Cataclysm
Excerpt from his Range:
Range: Standard Melee Range | Standard Melee Range, higher with his Staff (Can also be "infinite" in length like Ladybug's Yo-yo), at least Tens of Kilometers with Cataclysm (Destroyed Pixelator dimensions)
Well, not relevant now but from the profile of the usual Fox Miraculous user:
Range: Standard Melee Range | Standard Melee Range, higher with her Flute. Several thousand metres with Illusions.
I may have mispoke BTW, since I obviously meant use Flute & say Mirage is to activate the illusions, not change own costume.
Lol.
Both as in...?
The stuff about Acrobatics & Stealth Mastery still matters, I'd presume, though.
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Delusionaltx2
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Yeah although the clarification helps since if need be she hust deconstructs the water then
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Well not in the key being used apparently, since it's Ladybug Key, not Ladybug, Guardian of the Miraculous Key, so she shouldn't have access to Miraculous other than the Ladybug Miraculous, so, like, not the Cat Miraculous to Deconstruct stuff.
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supernatural luck go brr also may i ask which season ladybug is that if season 5 (end of the season) or season 6 she spams Lucky Charms so which would help very much in combat
edit: also why are we talking about clone stuff Lapis made that once and that was when she took over the ocean of beach city, she doesn't use that in combat in later seasons
edit: also why are we talking about clone stuff Lapis made that once and that was when she took over the ocean of beach city, she doesn't use that in combat in later seasons
Arkansalter2
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We assume their strongest canon form so season 6 I'm assuming.
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The safeguard -In-universe designation of it, IIRC- where a Miraculous user de-transforms 5 minutes after using their signature power is overcome very late into Season 5.
My memory's foggy, but she does spam it in her fight in the season finale of Season 5.
Earlier in Season 5, we're also shown in an episode focusing on the Snake Miraculous (It has the "Second Chance" power, which sets the point in time it was activated as a point the user can reset to, so long as they aren't more than 5 minutes further into the timeline than when Second Chance was activated. Put simply, it's a "time travel back to X point & only X, but only if it's after X & no more than 5 minutes after X".) shows that even when her Lucky Charm is removed, she's willing & able to detransform, then retransform to refresh her Lucky Charm power. (Presumably this isn't a different timeline behavioural difference. Also, she probably fed Tikki since feeding one's Kwami is often necessary, but in that instance, Ladybug de-transformed on purpose & then retransformed while out of sight from the viewers, so we don't know if she fed Tikki.)
In said episode, it's established that the Lucky Charm will differ if circumstances change; We see multiple flashbacks of Monarch attempting to use Second Chance, & these flashbacks are of battles that have already happened in previous episodes; In the Second Chance flashbacks, the "failed" attempts -Which didn't become part of the main timeline, as we know they happened differently from the previous episodes focusing on them- involve different Lucky Charms being summoned. & I say "failed" because Ladybug's victory through her Lucky Charm is only undone by Monarch rewinding via Second Chance.
In said episode, it's established that the Lucky Charm will differ if circumstances change; We see multiple flashbacks of Monarch attempting to use Second Chance, & these flashbacks are of battles that have already happened in previous episodes; In the Second Chance flashbacks, the "failed" attempts -Which didn't become part of the main timeline, as we know they happened differently from the previous episodes focusing on them- involve different Lucky Charms being summoned. & I say "failed" because Ladybug's victory through her Lucky Charm is only undone by Monarch rewinding via Second Chance.
This quote from the episode is elucidating:
"This power of Second Chance is of no use to me against Ladybug's magical luck! Every single time, her Lucky Charm adapts!"
Point is, Lucky Charm gives different results based on different circumstances, so if time is rewound & there's a small difference, the Lucky Charm can produce something different.
Hence, it usually isn't necessary to spam it.
In the finale of Season 5 where Ladybug DOES spam Lucky Charm, besides having no use-power-&-start-detransform-time-limit limitation, it's also against a very significant foe that she hated.
It was also an exceptional case, because it wasn't until later that her foe used the Ox Miraculous's effect, which grants invulnerability to superpowers; Either she didn't know it was a possibility, didn't consider it, or was counting on it not being active.
It's notable because in a fight where the foe could make themselves immune to superpowers, the Lucky Charm still summoned things like a midair piano that fell on the opponent, handcuffs to shackle her foe to her wrist so he couldn't get away, & a giant baker's peel to smash her foe through a wall.
(Notably this raises some question, as a previous episode showed the Ox Miraculous's power, Resistance, causes Lucky Charm objects to disaappear on contact. So either them not disappearing was because Unification of the Ladybug & Cat Miraculous had some influence to prevent Resistance disappearing Lucky Charms, Resistance wasn't activated until she tried Cataclysm, or the Lucky Charms summoned there were somehow more non-magical, since Resistance negates superpowers.)
It was also an exceptional case, because it wasn't until later that her foe used the Ox Miraculous's effect, which grants invulnerability to superpowers; Either she didn't know it was a possibility, didn't consider it, or was counting on it not being active.
It's notable because in a fight where the foe could make themselves immune to superpowers, the Lucky Charm still summoned things like a midair piano that fell on the opponent, handcuffs to shackle her foe to her wrist so he couldn't get away, & a giant baker's peel to smash her foe through a wall.
(Notably this raises some question, as a previous episode showed the Ox Miraculous's power, Resistance, causes Lucky Charm objects to disaappear on contact. So either them not disappearing was because Unification of the Ladybug & Cat Miraculous had some influence to prevent Resistance disappearing Lucky Charms, Resistance wasn't activated until she tried Cataclysm, or the Lucky Charms summoned there were somehow more non-magical, since Resistance negates superpowers.)
It may also be notable that only one Lucky Charm item exists at a time; We see that creating another turns the previous back into energy.
As for if she spams it in Season 6, I don't know, but she'd have the option. However, it's usually used as a problem-solving tool, since most of the time they're trying to find & destroy an Akumatized object, & overcoming the villain's powers can be a factor, too; In most cases, a single Lucky Charm used properly will suffice, & Lucky Vision (As the Miraculous Fandom Wiki calls it.) helps determine what to do with it.
Mind, I say this, but again, I haven't seen S6, though apparently, more is coming in Autumn, so that'll be that much closer to knowing when, where & if I can start watching for chronological order.
No idea.
Sorry for the long, rambling post.
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Kinda lazy to read could you summurize your point? I have read you mentioned about lucky charm affect on second chance but i did not understand what you want to say
It's ok but in the fact Lapis won't use those clones as starter move or after that at all we see she is using water manipulation as turning them into big hands, chains etc... I have no idea what is the LS gap but if LB has better LS than she can't incap Ladybug with those chains
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The point of the Lucky Charm Second Chance stuff is that since the power adapts to different circumstances, it usually doesn't need to be used more than once.
Lucky Charm was spammed in a finale's fight against a villain Ladybug really hated. Notably, even though Ladybug seemingly wasn't made aware of the foe having a "invulnerable to superpowers" superpower (Resistance, Ox Miraculous.), Lucky Charm summoned somewhat offensively with things like a midair piano drop, handcuffs & a giant baker's peel which she smashed her foe through a wall with. Arguably good proof of the power's adaptatin.
Most of the time, Lucky Charm items are used to figure out how to overcome a villain's powers/locate/destroy the Akumatized object or such. Ladybug even has "Lucky Vision", where she'll see things highlighted that are to be used with the item.
Only one Lucky Charm item can exist at a time; Summoning a new one turns the previous to energy.
Anyways, from what I know (Waiting for known chronological order before I start Season 6.), Ladybug usually doesn't spam Lucky Charm -Because the way it works, it usually doesn't need to be-, but she definitely has the option to as of late Season 5 & onwards.
That brief enough?
Brevity isn't really my strong suit, sorry. No offense meant.
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I know but you can use the lucky charm for the items you want like Shadybug she wanted a butterfly tracker from her Lucky charm and she got it and Mari does that very much in season 6 too
She still uses them for that but she also spams them because Lucky charm doesn't give an item based on one solution there are more solutions with different items too
True but you can create a lot of objects at once if you want such as multiple boomerangs that toy Ladybug created
Yeah you need to watch season 6 she does spam them in season 6 she can get what she want from the Lucky charm or she can leave the choice to tikki/lucky charm itself
Nah it's ok i got u np
