• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Deactivating Anti-Space-Time attack mechanism limiter... | Sonic Cosmology Downgrade Part 2

Status
Not open for further replies.
"Dimension" has different meanings in English as well. It being translated as "fourth dimension" is still vague and not remotely the same as the translation saying "geometrically four-dimensional space." I am not arguing that the translation is wrong, but rather that it is too vague.
Genuinely feels like nitpicking, like what else could it mean. Fourth dimension is obviously not referring to time because it has never been referred to as the timestream, it’s not referring to parallel worlds because there would be no reason to single out the 4th of infinite parallel universes, literally the only thing it can be is geometric dimensions.
 
It is in fact, uncountably infinitely smaller because it has to be. Maginaryworld stores EVERY dream across the ENTIRE multiverse within 4th dimension space, said multiverse already being infinite cuz of TailsTube (and maybe crossworlds) and the multiverse also working off many worlds theory to add even more worlds, all those worlds creating new dreamworlds, and even those dream worlds having dream worlds offshooting from them via evidence from Dream Team and Shuffle.
In fact, here is direct proof of dreams within dreams to add even more proof to the idea of uncountable infinity
 
No, I don't, because your debunk is half-baked because you completely ignored the Egg-Field that would still keep everything at 5-D even if you were right.
So the tesseract, the fourth dimension space, and the egg field being described as "super other-dimensional" right? That's what it comes down to?
 
Extra temporal dimensions are typically quantitatively superior by default, not always the case for spatial dimensions. And there was a misunderstanding; I never voiced a full on disapproval of the rating per say, I simply mentioned how I didn't entirely understand how it justified the full 6-D thing. Neon did however elaborate in detail; though he mostly did explain portent gravity, spatial, and vector manipulations. Though the best supporting evidence was 4th dimension from Maginary World "Possibly Infinite."

While I was originally going to give an agreement leaning, I am once again neutral but agreement leaning this time. Though the Maginary World thing could still warrant a "Possibly" thing for 6D; and easily justifies range on that level.
 
Fair enough, cyberspace is primarily getting its higher status from upscaling the dimensionality of Eggman’s constructsz
 
Extra temporal dimensions are typically quantitatively superior by default, not always the case for spatial dimensions. And there was a misunderstanding; I never voiced a full on disapproval of the rating per say, I simply mentioned how I didn't entirely understand how it justified the full 6-D thing. Neon did however elaborate in detail; though he mostly did explain portent gravity, spatial, and vector manipulations. Though the best supporting evidence was 4th dimension from Maginary World "Possibly Infinite."
From my understanding as long as dimensions contained the requisite amount of spatial dimensions and also was universal size minimum, it would be eligible for the tiering system, that’s why I singled out the Tesseract stuff. There is also the alternative option of bulkspace being 5-D, which I do feel like Maginaryworld and white space can qualify for, but then I’d be fine downgrading cyberspace and Otherworld.
 
From my understanding as long as dimensions contained the requisite amount of spatial dimensions and also was universal size minimum, it would be eligible for the tiering system, that’s why I singled out the Tesseract stuff. There is also the alternative option of bulkspace being 5-D, which I do feel like Maginaryworld and white space can qualify for, but then I’d be fine downgrading cyberspace and Otherworld.
That's not how it works at all. Multiverses, in our tiering system, can be assumed to have a 5th dimensional axis by default, and 2-A structures are obviously "universal size minimum." To qualify for Low 1-C, it has to be proven that the 5th dimensional axis specifically has a "non-insignificant" extent
 
Honestly there is some wank in Sonic that deserves to be downgraded (Hypertimelines are ******* bullshit in general tbh) but this ain’t, chief. Disagree FRA
 
Thread isn't big enough for a summary; most of the main points are in the OP and Neon's response to it, together with Shake's.
Why does it matter? We've already reached the point where back-and-forths aren't that productive anymore don't you think?
 
That's not how it works at all. Multiverses, in our tiering system, can be assumed to have a 5th dimensional axis by default, and 2-A structures are obviously "universal size minimum." To qualify for Low 1-C, it has to be proven that the 5th dimensional axis specifically has a "non-insignificant" extent
Okay, then Otherworld might be fine, as the infinite modifier for the realm is centered on the super-dimensional space aspect. Cyberspace though, is a realm that is unquantifiably or likely infinitely large that also happens to likely encompass 4 spatial dimensions via Eggman’s hype statements about how it surpasses the complexity of any digital dimension he’s constructed, which at that point would include the Tesseract space. I’d be fine downgrading Cyberspace in this instance.
 
Why does it matter? We've already reached the point where back-and-forths aren't that productive anymore don't you think?
Because summaries are made for staff to catch up. There's nothing to catch up on as everything is on the first page.
 
We had 16 whole pages on this you could have commented there 💀
Nah, it ain’t Sonic’s fault in this case, it does probably meet the requirements to have a Hypertimeline as we define it. It’s just that Hypertimelines are stupid and almost never actually exist in verses and are just used to wank it higher; but that’s another thread for another time. For now, let’s focus on the topic at hand.
 
At absolute most I’d be fine downgrading Otherworld and cyberspace. Maginaryworld I think would still be 5-D off bulkspace elements.
 
We had 16 whole pages on this you could have commented there 💀
I believe his problems have less to do with Sonic the Hedgehog specifically and more to do with Hypertimeline standards in general, but disagreed with downgrading based on a "Lined up with general practice thus far"
 
I believe his problems have less to do with Sonic the Hedgehog specifically and more to do with Hypertimeline standards in general, but disagreed with downgrading based on a "Lined up with general practice thus far"
cousin-eddie-bingo.gif
 
imension" has different meanings in English as well. It being translated as "fourth dimension space" is still vague
Fourth-dimensional space is the opposite of vague. It clearly tells you what it is and the context of X-dimensional refers to coordinate planes. Being vague is like "Higher" or "Other" dimensional space.
I am not arguing that the translation is wrong,
But you are, because the thread you linked is saying the kanji can mean "higher level" in addition to "higher dimensional (mathematics)". You're saying it should be the former without explaining the context on why it should be like that.
 
I know my vote doesn’t count, but put me as neutral-disagree regarding downgrade of Otherworld and cyberspace and disagree on Maginaryworld above.
 
I had my disagreements with the whole hypertimeline stuff in Generations (because it’s a wank), but honestly, this seems fine to me.

When it comes to pop culture, the term '4th dimension' is usually used to refer to pocket dimensions or “Hammer Space”-type stuff, but that clearly doesn’t seem to be the case here.

The only way I could possibly see this as contradictory is if the wiki’s standards for higher dimensions became stricter, but I seriously doubt anyone with the knowledge, time, and willingness would push for such a massive overhaul (I'm not doing it anytime soon).

The standards of the wiki are what they are.
 
Fourth-dimensional space is the opposite of vague. It clearly tells you what it is and the context of X-dimensional refers to coordinate planes. Being vague is like "Higher" or "Other" dimensional space.
It can also mean fourth dimension as in "fourth universe" (like in Phineas and Ferb or Doom). That's actually what is hinted by this translation here. The "4th dimension" is a "world."

The "fourth-dimensional space" translation comes solely from a DeepL MTL.

Also, even if it did have a fifth dimensional axis there is no proof that its extent is "non-insignificant."
 
For the record this downgrade is also applying to cyberspace and Otherworld so, give votes on that too.
 
When it comes to pop culture, the term '4th dimension' is usually used to refer to pocket dimensions or “Hammer Space”-type stuff, but that clearly doesn’t seem to be the case here.
This statement: "This is the 4th dimension, the world Illumina dreamed of"

as well as it being called "fourth dimension space" is basically the only thing we have on it that isn't MTL. There isn't anything suggesting it goes further than that.
 
Calling it the fourth universe doesn’t make sense either because it’s not the fourth universe explored in the series. Sonic’s world, aqua planet’s dimension, sleeping egg zone, the special stage zone, and the flicky dimension all were established concepts by this point.
 
This statement: "This is the 4th dimension, the world Illumina dreamed of"

as well as it being called "fourth dimension space" is basically the only thing we have on it that isn't MTL. There isn't anything suggesting it goes further than that.

I'm neutral so far. I’m gonna wait for a few more arguments before giving my input.

It does seem a bit shady, yeah but kind of legit, considering it supposedly separates universes (at least based on what I understood from the scans).

Haven’t played Sonic Shuffle, though.
 
But you are, because the thread you linked is saying the kanji can mean "higher level" in addition to "higher dimensional (mathematics)". You're saying it should be the former without explaining the context on why it should be like that.
If there are two potential equally-likely meanings, and a form of scaling would only apply if the second meaning were true, shouldn't that scaling only be "possibly" at best?
Fourth-dimensional space is the opposite of vague. It clearly tells you what it is and the context of X-dimensional refers to coordinate planes.
And also, it's still vague in terms of whether "fourth-dimensional" refers to all of the dimensions in total or just the spatial dimensions. "Fourth dimensional" can be used to refer to a 3+1 dimensional space.
 
If there are two potential equally-likely meanings, and a form of scaling would only apply if the second meaning were true, shouldn't that scaling only be "possibly" at best?
Because having different meanings doesn't mean one is more likely than the other.
 
Because having different meanings doesn't mean one is more likely than the other.
Okay? That doesn't answer my question. If a "scaling meta" only applies if one equally possible interpretation out of two is true, then that should only be treated as "possibly" true at best.
 
Okay? That doesn't answer my question. If a "scaling meta" only applies if one equally possible interpretation out of two is true, then that should only be treated as "possibly" true at best.
Because it's not equally possible. You made that claim up because you've been nitpicking the meaning of "dimension" for an entire page.

Edit: Also, add Dale to the disagree list as well.
 
Because it's not equally possible. You made that claim up because you've been nitpicking the meaning of "dimension" for an entire page.

Edit: Also, add Dale to the disagree list as well.
Why not? What hints towards one rather than the other?
 
The Japanese text says, on that part :

ここは4次元宇宙
イルミナが見た夢の世界

Did you guys get this translated? Because the wording seems to imply a matter of perspective rather than cosmology here. Admittedly I lack the full context here so...yeah.

As for the rest, I'm in agreement with User.
 
I told Telo I won't engage in this thread because I don't care, but some stuff here is just hard to ignore.
This is objectively has nothing to do with higher dimensions or higher infinities, everything described here is entirely possible within a 3D space and, frankly, there are already 3D realms on the wiki with more complex feats than this.
Even a "starry sky"
Can you please stop putting irrelevent stuff just to make it mucho texto?
A tesseract, also called a 4-cube / hypercube is the four-dimensional analog of a cube. Just as a cube is built by extruding a square through a third spatial dimension, a tesseract is formed by extruding a cube into a fourth spatial axis; one that is orthogonal to the x, y, and z axes. This fourth axis cannot be visualized directly but can be mathematically modeled using four-dimensional coordinate systems.

A tesseract has each 16 vertices, 32 edges, 24 square faces, and 8 cubic cells, one of these cubic cells being a normal 3D cube, the same way a cube has 6 square faces.
Ok, this paragraph is somehow suspicious, and I'm not talking about it's accuracy, but rather why it's here.
While we only ever see a 3D projection of a tesseract (which may look like a cube inside a cube connected by lines), that DOESN'T invalidate the object's dimensionality any more than a 2D drawing of a cube makes it non-3D. As such, the existence of a projected tesseract in a comical space (especially one tied to space-bending effects, non-Euclidean layouts, and internal looping geometries) is AT LEAST indicative of an attempt at higher-dimensional conceptualization, and not just an aesthetic coincidence.
What in the actual chaos?
That actually proves the opposite of what you're trying to argue, and btw, looping, or warped gravity can exist entirely within 3D spaces.
Eggman's space warps proportion, gravity, and geometry, which inherently breaks 3D limitations.
No it objectively doesn't.
Every 4D object is projected into lower dimensions. The fact that it appears as a cube-inside-cube is exactly what a 3D tesseract projection looks like. That's not invalidation FYI, that's confirmation of how a tesseract should appear.
Yeah and that’s kind of the issue of your argument dude, also fancy wording doesn't mean much.
behavioral and structural evidence can support dimensional claims.
That's very funny because behavioral evidence is just not on your side, the cast jump into it normally and then it materializes into a 3D room. The comic arc doesn't seem to show anything 4D remarkable
Projection ≠ Denial
Correction, Projection = Denial.
A projection does by default lacks the full structure and properties of the original object.
I really don't want to bring this up but the whole scene takes place inside a VR machine, and we can model tesseracts with current computers irl that doesn't make them truly extradimensional.

Ok this a bad arguement because that’s more likely due to the settings of "Crystal-orb"/portal projection, even saying they aren't such, it matches the numurous representations of a multiverse (Which what maginary world is). but also seeing them as flat has nothing to do with higher spatial dimensions.
First: a 4D being inside a 4D space wouldn’t see things as flat, he actually will be able to see all three angles at once, a 3D object would literally appear fully solid and volumetric to a 4D being at once, including the insides cuz they have access to the extra spatial direction,
Second:We 3D beings perceive Stuff 2-dimensionally whatever it's a 3D space or 4D space, the whole projected in screen is because they are insde orbs,
Third:The dream worlds themselves exist inside that 4D space (the background is literally the 4th dimension space, and we see the worlds are within spheres/orbs), and we never see characters interact with them as if they were "flat" or infinitely lesser in dimension, the cast doesn't even see each other as "projected on screen" as well, and a 3D being's perspective doesn't suddendly change whatever sptial dimension is, if anything it would be much dimensioned rather than less.
The time component is just wrong, every mini-game takes place within dream worlds, not 4th dimensional space, it's literally in your own scan.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top