Garou vs Reinhard (15-5-1)

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

People saying Reinhard out skills but won't bring up actual skill feats. Dodging rain is not a quantifiable thing.

It's like me saying I'm the most skilled guy in the world because I can "fit a cubic meter inside of a cubic centimeter." It's a completely stupid notion because such a thing is not possible or logically sound whatsoever. Actually insane how wanked Re: Zero is on this website NGL. I hate interacting with it sometimes despite the series being one of my absolute favorites.

Reinhard's passive auto dodge also only works against ranged attacks and it is still not a 100% thing. It is possible for characters to hit Reinhard in combat on many occasions. Especially if we're talking about close combat.

If you want to say Reinhard wins because of bit AoE space slash or existence erasure then say that, but don't be disingenuous.

Gifted As one of the founding members of Overwatch and the vanguard of the original strike team, Reinhardt is a veteran of hundreds of battles throughout the omnic crisis and other Overwatch missions.

Like the knights of old, he fights in melee combat, deftly wielding his hammer with enough finesse to ward enough several opponents at once but with enough force to casually total a motorcycle or humanoid Omnic

Reinhardt has also learnt how to figh despite one almost killing him and lethally wounded Balderich the first time he encountered one

In addition, he is especially skilled at defending his allies from harm thanks to his energy shield but remains audacious enough to barrel into foes to crush them with his armour's weight

 

[Arkansalter2]

Gifted As one of the founding members of Overwatch and the vanguard of the original strike team, Reinhardt is a veteran of hundreds of battles throughout the omnic crisis and other Overwatch missions.

Like the knights of old, he fights in melee combat, deftly wielding his hammer with enough finesse to ward enough several opponents at once but with enough force to casually total a motorcycle or humanoid Omnic

Reinhardt has also learnt how to figh despite one almost killing him and lethally wounded Balderich the first time he encountered one

In addition, he is especially skilled at defending his allies from harm thanks to his energy shield but remains audacious enough to barrel into foes to crush them with his armour's weight

 

[Epiccheev]

As one of the founding members of Overwatch

 

[Zabazab]

The application of it in a martial arts fight becomes nebulous when you consider that factor because it tells me this is an ability which is limited by his talent.

It's limited by his physical ability, he doesn't need to think about how to respond, he just has to be capable of responding. It informs him instinctively, and his body just needs to be able to keep up. Hence why the divine protection isn't so useful against attacks that have too much speed or AoE for him to handle. As described, he is functionally seeing what his opponent will do before they do it, allowing him to respond appropriately. It gets even more effective with the Second Coming as that one allows him to respond with vastly greater speed.

And it depends on what you mean by countering. The divine protection doesn't allow him to see through plans, nor does it detail him with the ins-and-outs of opposing abilities— it just lets him respond appropriately if such a thing is possible. I can't really think of anything Garou would pull out that would be impossible for Reinhard to avoid, counter, or block.

 

[Phoenks]

It's limited by his physical ability, he doesn't need to think about how to respond, he just has to be capable of responding. It informs him instinctively, and his body just needs to be able to keep up. Hence why the divine protection isn't so useful against attacks that have too much speed or AoE for him to handle. As described, he is functionally seeing what his opponent will do before they do it, allowing him to respond appropriately. It gets even more effective with the Second Coming as that one allows him to respond with vastly greater speed.

And it depends on what you mean by countering. The divine protection doesn't allow him to see through plans, nor does it detail him with the ins-and-outs of opposing abilities— it just lets him respond appropriately if such a thing is possible. I can't really think of anything Garou would pull out that would be impossible for Reinhard to avoid, counter, or block.

Couple of things.

Again, assuming he can do this 100% of the time without actually measuring his quantifiable skill against Garou's is a no limits fallacy because of what I described above. Waiting on Re Zero supporters for that.

"Plans" is similarly nebulous because what constitutes a plan in the first place?

Garou becomes blitz worthy in speed equal after moments of fighting. So even if your argument is that he only needs to counter if someone is faster, then Garou would indeed be faster after a very small amount of time.

 

[Zabazab]

Again, assuming he can do this 100% of the time without actually measuring his quantifiable skill against Garou's is a no limits fallacy because of what I described above. Waiting on Re Zero supporters for that.

How would First Sight result in a matchup of skill when his instincts are automatically telling him what's happening and how to deal with it? It'd just become a match of physical ability. Strength vs strength, speed vs speed, dexterity vs dexterity. Knowing what to expect and automatically responding kind of neutralizes a large amount of the skill involved since there's no real need to read his opponent and respond based on observation. Although Reinhard would probably bother with observation anyway.

"Plans" is similarly nebulous because what constitutes a plan in the first place?

If you shot a fireball at him with the intent of melting the ground under his feet to get him stuck in place, he'd know how to respond to the fireball but not about the melted ground. That sort of thing. (Ignore the Divine Protections of Fireplay and Fire Avoidance with neutralize fire, and Sandplay which neutralizes changes in the terrain, it's just an example)

Garou becomes blitz worthy in speed equal after moments of fighting. So even if your argument is that he only needs to counter if someone is faster, then Garou would indeed be faster after a very small amount of time.

He doesn't only counter if dodging is impossible, he chooses to counter fodder just as often as he dodges. He can do whatever. The point is that most incoming attacks will be Dealt With. I felt the explanations given on his profile were pretty clear about their mechanics

• Divine Protection of First Sight: He will instinctively know how to counter or dodge attacks that he is experiencing for the first time, akin to precognition. This includes surprise attacks, and he will be awakened should he be sleeping. But if he is unable to physically avoid or counter the attack, the Divine Protection will not activate.

• Divine Protection of the Second Coming: He will intuitively respond to attacks that he experiences twice or more with a vastly greater speed, including surprise attacks, and he will be awakened should he be sleeping. This effectively causes attacks to not land on him, making it an effective ability against formidable opponents.

 

[Phoenks]

Are you just not reading what I'm saying? Assuming Reinhard can perfectly dodge and counter because he has the ability to "perfectly dodge and counter everything" is a no limits fallacy. And based on scans and reasons provided is inherently limited by his talents. The very fact that there are scenarios where countering makes more sense than evasion to him tells me this.

This is getting tedious.

 

[MrTayman616]

What can Reinhard do against Garou, mostly against his RE?

 

[Zabazab]

Assuming Reinhard can perfectly dodge and counter because he has the ability to "perfectly dodge and counter everything" is a no limits fallacy.

It's not "everything" though is it? Who said he can dodge everything? He can avoid what he is physically able to avoid, and counter what he is physically able to counter. It's functionally precognition + instinctive action rolled into one. Yes it works on attacks he's never seen before or couldn't otherwise expect because That's The Ability, as shown when he perfectly countered a bunch of Insect Cage Clansmen's secret abilities with ease. That's the "First Sight" in the name. Genuinely, what is upsetting you here?

 

[Phoenks]

It's not "everything" though is it? Who said he can dodge everything? He can avoid what he is physically able to avoid, and counter what he is physically able to counter.

This is limited by the scope of what his talents allow for. If you insist that it isn't, then it's a NLF.

It's functionally precognition + instinctive action rolled into one. Yes it works on attacks he's never seen before or couldn't otherwise expect because That's The Ability, as shown when he perfectly countered a bunch of Insect Cage Clansmen's secret abilities with ease. That's the "First Sight" in the name. Genuinely, what is upsetting you here?

Then go into what his prediction and instinctive actions are shown to work against so we can have a debate.

 

[Kachon123]

Olbart has a technique which is literally the fist of water (you attack him and he reflects all the damage back to you with his own force added) however this specific technique is a different version and is more on the negation of damage spectrum instead of reflecting it back, I dont recall Garou having a feat of dealing with that.

Bang literally did that in the scan I sent.

 

[Zabazab]

This is limited by the scope of what his talents allow for. If you insist that it isn't, then it's a NLF.

If something is too fast or covers too much AoE, or if it automatically homes in on him, he couldn't avoid it. First Sight's effect is incredibly simple, skill is not really a factor when you're seeing through and automatically responding intuitively to first-time attacks. I highly doubt Garou can punch with such skill that it negates Reinhard's ability to evade, or block, or counterstrike.

Then go into what his prediction and instinctive actions are shown to work against so we can have a debate.

Reinhard van Astrea

Reinhard van Astrea (ラインハルト・ヴァン・アストレア, Rainharuto van Asutorea?) is the current Sword Saint (剣聖, Kensei?) and a member of the Lugunican Royal Guard, currently acting as Felt's knight, supporting her in her bid to become the 42nd king of the Dragon Kingdom of Lugunica. He is not only the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[MrTayman616]

I highly doubt Garou can punch with such skill that it negates Reinhard's ability to evade, or block, or counterstrike.

Garou knocks himself out so he can attack subconsciously, ignoring his instincts (joking btw, though it can happen if Reinhard were to knock him out or something :d)

 

[Phoenks]

First Sight's effect is incredibly simple, skill is not really a factor when you're seeing through and automatically responding intuitively to first-time attacks.

It is because it is limited by his own capacity for analytical prediction and instincts. Reinhard does not see the literal future. He does not have precognition accepted on the page.

Insisting that it is not a factor is NLF, like I've continued to say like a broken record at this point. It's a real shame that re zero is like this on the wiki. It's so disingenuous.

The moment you admit that there are levels of skill that surpass what Reinhard can just automatically counter is the moment we can actually move forward with this discussion.

You're basically saying that Reinhard just no diffs every skilled character on the wiki because he has a DP that counters everything in Re: Zero.

I hope we can be more reasonable about this.

 

[MrTayman616]

What we know about it is that it is limited to his physical ability and things he can understand. If Reinhard understands the ability (even if he sees it for the first time), and physically capable of dodging it, he will dodge.

 

[Phoenks]

What we know about it is that it is limited to his physical ability and things he can understand. If Reinhard understands the ability (even if he sees it for the first time), and physically capable of dodging it, he will dodge.

Then we must delve into the limits of what Reinhard can understand by analyzing what he's shown to understand in Re: Zero. This goes back into the skill debate that I've been waiting for the Re: zero supporters to participate in.

 

[Zabazab]

Garou knocks himself out so he can attack subconsciously, ignoring his instincts (joking btw)

No no this would lowkey bypass the Divine Protection of the Sword Saint (Just Skill). Reinhard's saving grace would be First Sight and the Second Coming which don't have that weird stipulation.

It is because it is limited by his own capacity analytical prediction and instincts. Reinhard does not see the literal future. He does not have precognition accepted on the page.

It's not normal analytical prediction since he doesn't need to analyze. The response is just beamed into his nerves from either nowhere (superhuman guesswork) or Od Lagna itself, however the DP gets the info.

The moment you admit that there are levels of skill that surpass what Reinhard can just automatically counter is the moment we can actually move forward with this discussion.

You cannot punch or kick in such a way that an ability like First Sight would be ineffective, without just using a supernatural ability that obfuscates its effects. It's not like the Sword Saint DP which maximizes his battle skills, it's an ability which informs his instincts with how to avoid or counter, or even diminish attacks that he's experiencing for the first time.

You're basically saying that Reinhard just no diffs every skilled character on the wiki because he has a DP that counters everything in Re: Zero.

You are putting words in my mouth. When did I ever say this? He also doesn't have a DP to counter everything in Re:Zero.

 

[Phoenks]

You cannot punch or kick in such a way that an ability like First Sight would be ineffective, without just using a supernatural ability that obfuscates its effects.

You are putting words in my mouth. When did I ever say this? He also doesn't have a DP to counter everything in Re:Zero.

These two statements contradict. You are effectively saying that no matter how skilled someone is at martial arts that it doesn't matter because Reinhard DP will always counter it the same.


Anyway, Garou also has more supernatural abilities attached to some martial arts like deconstruction and air Manipulations

Btw just to be sure this conversation isn't irrelevant. Can Reinhard perform kilometers EE and space slash in this fight? If so, this is a stomp

 

[MrTayman616]

Btw just to be sure this conversation isn't irrelevant. Can Reinhard perform kilometers EE and space slash in this fight? If so, this is a stomp

He can't. He's unable to use the Dragon Sword Reid, nor has any sword with him.

 

[GodzillavsRayquaza]

The arguments for Reinhard are genuinely sounding like “well he’s Reinhard and Garou isn’t Reinhard, therefore Garou loses”.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

The arguments for Reinhard are genuinely sounding like “well he’s Reinhard and Garou isn’t Reinhard, therefore Garou loses”.

That's how every Re:Zero matchup sounds honestly with how stupid the "skill" scaling is.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Bang literally did that in the scan I sent.

ah then sure, he scales to the dude who is infinite amounts of training below Reinhard

 

[Epiccheev]

well he’s Reinhard and Garou isn’t Reinhard, therefore Garou loses

He can also dodge rain. Rainhard.

 

[Gamecooob]

justdodgerainbro

 

[MrTayman616]

ah then sure, he scales to the dude who is infinite amounts of training below Reinhard

What kind of logic is that :d

If Reinhard does the same feat, will he scale below himself that much?

 

[Zabazab]

These two statements contradict. You are effectively saying that no matter how skilled someone is at martial arts that it doesn't matter because Reinhard DP will always counter it the same.

They do not. It's a matter of a genius solving an equation vs someone who already knew the answer, or can always correctly guess the answer. The limit is not Reinhard's mind, it's his body. That's it.

Anyway, Garou also has more supernatural abilities attached to some martial arts like deconstruction and air Manipulations

A punch that can turn your atoms into a cloud of screaming quarks is still a punch that can be avoided.

Btw just to be sure this conversation isn't irrelevant. Can Reinhard perform kilometers EE and space slash in this fight? If so, this is a stomp

No EE. He can slice space if he picks up some weapon.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

What kind of logic is that :d

idk, ask the writer.

On a serious note, though, there are 2 main things that have not been fully brought up.

First of all, Reinhard's 100x perception amp grows with time.

Second, from previous matches, Reinhard has been basically capable of using anything as his sword, including a random stick, no? (Or i that just Reid Astrea?)

(My knowledge of Re:Zero is limited and mainly comes from other debates for the verse.)

 

[Kachon123]

ah then sure, he scales to the dude who is infinite amounts of training below Reinhard

You guys keep shifting the goalpost lmao.

So Reinhard has no answers to pressure points

 

[Phoenks]

They do not. It's a matter of a genius solving an equation vs someone who already knew the answer, or can always correctly guess the answer. The limit is not Reinhard's mind, it's his body. That's it.

How many different times are you going to respond with the same NLF. Do you want to have a conversation or not?

 

[MasterOwOgay]

So far, The win conditions are. Reinhard can avoid Garou’s attacks, since Rain Dodge lets him evade even strikes that should be impossible to dodge. His protections like First Sight, Second Attack, and Forthcoming allow him to instinctively counter martial arts techniques without needing prior knowledge. The setting also works in his favor, as almost any weapon lying around, whether a knife, a piece of metal, or even a spoon—could be used by him for spatial severing to end the battle instantly. Garou, by contrast, depends on AD and RE to push his stats high enough to blitz Reinhard’s perception, but this is complicated by the fact that even an untrained child like Emilia could still react to perception-blitzing danmaku. While Garou’s growth rate is faster, Reinhard also grows during battle...

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

You guys keep shifting the goalpost lmao.

So Reinhard has no answers to pressure points

Olbart would get hard countered if he uses any technique against Reinhard. There isnt any shifting of the goal posts here, its still hard for Garou to land a hit at all and even if he does Reinhard will just counter it.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

So far, The win conditions are. Reinhard can avoid Garou’s attacks, since Rain Dodge lets him evade even strikes that should be impossible to dodge. His protections like First Sight, Second Attack, and Forthcoming allow him to instinctively counter martial arts techniques without needing prior knowledge. The setting also works in his favor, as almost any weapon lying around, whether a knife, a piece of metal, or even a spoon—could be used by him for spatial severing to end the battle instantly. Garou, by contrast, depends on AD and RE to push his stats high enough to blitz Reinhard’s perception, but this is complicated by the fact that even an untrained child like Emilia could still react to perception-blitzing danmaku. While Garou’s growth rate is faster, Reinhard also grows during battle...

Actually considering Reinhard can beat Reid with a chopstick, its reasonable to assume even a stick lying on the ground would work

 

[MrTayman616]

Second, from previous matches, Reinhard has been basically capable of using anything as his sword, including a random stick, no? (Or i that just Reid Astrea?)

It's Reid Astrea.

Reinhard can do something similar as well though since they're that skilled, but he has a capacity limit unlike Reid Astrea with heavenly sword.

Though he's capable of beating Reid Astrea in a battle of sticks, but it's conditional based on author's word (Probably divine protection related?)

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

It's Reid Astrea.

Reinhard can do something similar as well though since they're that skilled, but he has a capacity limit unlike Reid Astrea with heavenly sword.

Though he's capable of beating Reid Astrea in a battle of sticks, but it's conditional based on author's word (Probably divine protection related?)

it isnt conditional, its just an extreme diff for Reinhard to win iirc

 

[Kachon123]

First of all, Reinhard's 100x perception amp grows with time.

Garou in a previous (far inferior) key already passively grew faster "at an stagering rate" in combat, and at an even greater rate when given stimulus by something faster. In this key, his grown is exponentially greater and he accelerates infinitely if prompted. This will just end in Garou violently blitzing Reinhard and exploding him to dust or disabling his body functions.

 

[MrTayman616]

So far, The win conditions are. Reinhard can avoid Garou’s attacks, since Rain Dodge lets him evade even strikes that should be impossible to dodge. His protections like First Sight, Second Attack, and Forthcoming allow him to instinctively counter martial arts techniques without needing prior knowledge. The setting also works in his favor, as almost any weapon lying around, whether a knife, a piece of metal, or even a spoon—could be used by him for spatial severing to end the battle instantly. Garou, by contrast, depends on AD and RE to push his stats high enough to blitz Reinhard’s perception, but this is complicated by the fact that even an untrained child like Emilia could still react to perception-blitzing danmaku. While Garou’s growth rate is faster, Reinhard also grows during battle...

You can't react to perception blitz. If you mean the arrow feat, it's basically aim dodge via reading intent. The arrow doesn't blitz Emilia within it's entire travel time.

Garou's growth rate is incomparably higher.

 

[Kachon123]

Olbart would get hard countered if he uses any technique against Reinhard. There isnt any shifting of the goal posts here, its still hard for Garou to land a hit at all and even if he does Reinhard will just counter it.

Yeah, no. Bang casually did the same feat and this version of Garou is in a different stratosphere of mastery than Bang.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Garou in a previous (far inferior) key already passively grew faster "at an stagering rate" in combat, and at an even greater rate when given stimulus by something faster. In this key, his grown is exponentially greater and he accelerates infinitely if prompted. This will just end in Garou violently blitzing Reinhard and exploding him to dust or disabling his body functions.

Again, I am asking if he has any instant amp that doesn't rely on his adaptation or RE.

Also, I don't see how Garou RE, or adaptation, will work when he gets one tapped with Reinhard's spatial cut.

 

[Zabazab]

How many different times are you going to respond with the same NLF. Do you want to have a conversation or not?

Calling it a NLF to say Reinhard's "I avoid the first attack if I physically can" ability lets him avoid the first attack if he physically can will not make it a NLF. I don't really understand what you're struggling to grasp about the fact that knowing how to respond and instinctively doing so nullifies a large amount of the skill matchup when it comes to countering and avoiding stuff. Skill will not make your attacks home in. It's just punchkick man it's not gonna bypass First Sight + Second Coming without blitzing his reactions. You can just say things you think will get around these DPs instead of posing a hypothetical "Punch So Skilled It Negates The Advantage Of Seeing It In Advance And Intuitively Responding" and calling First Sight an NLF because of that.

 

[MrTayman616]

it isnt conditional, its just an extreme diff for Reinhard to win iirc

He's mostly stronger than Reid.

Reid is more skilled than him, Reinhard's victory in chopsticks isn't based on that.