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Garou vs Reinhard (15-5-1)

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MrTayman616 said:
While he does make the right choices, Reinhard is shown to be caught unguarded by attacks and methods he's not aware of. (Or maybe it's air related lol)
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To quote his page
  • Superhuman Intuition: Reinhard has an incredible intuition which alerts him of danger and distinguishes all attacks in advance, even if invisible or in large numbers, akin to precognition. He will win games of luck because he "knows the right answer", and it has been said he would get full marks on a test just by following his intuition, even if it isn't multiple-choice. Advanced intuition is a common trait among the transcendent beings of the world, leading them to consistently "guess" the right decision or correct answer in many situations, especially in combat. However this skill is not omniscient, and there are times where he makes mistakes or can't find a solution, particularly if the solution is rather convoluted.
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CastoriceTheFifth said:
Perfect way to summarize Reinhard’s situation
the-gojo-sukuna-fight-wasnt-3v1-v0-lzqiiedmrhec1.jpeg
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Oh god, considering the new manga the "lost little alien boy" might just have been foreshadowing.
 
Garou's Instinctive Reactions at the very worst are an equivalent ability to Reinhard's intuition because they allow him to fight people like Bang, a martial artist with decades of experience, similar analytical and instinctive abilities, while he's sleeping. I would actually say his instincts outshine Reinhard in this category because it is specifically geared towards fighting and has been honed into his body through combat experience. Unlike Reinhard who is just kinda blessed by the world and has no real reason or experience tied to his intuition.

And on that note, Reinhard is not skilled; Reinhard is talented. His abilities come from his Sword Saint Inscription, not from hard work. Most of what he has is saint abilities that grant him talents placing him above other skilled people.
 
Phoenks said:
Garou's Instinctive Reactions at the very worst are an equivalent ability to Reinhard's intuition because they allow him to fight people like Bang, a martial artist with decades of experience, similar analytical and instinctive abilities, while he's sleeping. I would actually say his instincts outshine Reinhard in this category because it is specifically geared towards fighting and has been honed into his body through combat experience. Unlike Reinhard who is just kinda blessed by the world and has no real reason or experience tied to his intuition.

And on that note, Reinhard is not skilled; Reinhard is talented. His abilities come from his Sword Saint Inscription, not from hard work. Most of what he has is saint abilities that grant him talents placing him above other skilled people.
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Allat and still below Kai

Does Garou have a counter to this?
Vector Manipulation & Homing Attack (Due to his Divine Protection of Arrow Evasion, ranged attacks cannot reach Reinhard, as they automatically change their trajectory to miss him. Reinhard's Divine Protection of Arrow Striking makes his ranged attacks always hit their target)
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CastoriceTheFifth said:
How does Garou land a hit on Reinhard again
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At worst, Reactive evolution.

His martial arts can arguably help at the start as well.

He has his own perception amp and increase in physical abilities as well.

Not to mention, Reinhard has to finish Garou accurately, since Garou would have an overwhelming stats advantage via overcoming death
Phoenks said:
Reinhard is not skilled
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I'd disagree with this, since even characters like theresia call him extremely skilled (or maybe she said talent? don't remember it rn :d) which would be before his divine protection era :d
Lloydblitzed said:
Allat and still below Kai

Does Garou have a counter to this?
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Garou doesn't have that type of ranged attack, Reinhard isn't that type of fighter as well. If you mean that Reinhard would still do it, It's not that it can't be stopped or deflected, it just goes to the opponent perfectly.

Aka the reason why both divine protections counter each other :d
 
Phoenks said:
Garou's Instinctive Reactions at the very worst are an equivalent ability to Reinhard's intuition because they allow him to fight people like Bang, a martial artist with decades of experience, similar analytical and instinctive abilities, while he's sleeping. I would actually say his instincts outshine Reinhard in this category because it is specifically geared towards fighting and has been honed into his body through combat experience. Unlike Reinhard who is just kinda blessed by the world and has no real reason or experience tied to his intuition.

And on that note, Reinhard is not skilled; Reinhard is talented. His abilities come from his Sword Saint Inscription, not from hard work. Most of what he has is saint abilities that grant him talents placing him above other skilled people.
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This is a bit....

Reinhard's instinctive reactions allow him to dodge rain... Also to say Reinhard isn't skilled, like what? Dude is a natural genius sure, but Reinhard isn't op because he is the Sword Saint, Reinhard is op because he is Reinhard, even without that, and any other blessings, he would still be just as strong, just wouldn't be able to beat the cheaters. Like idk where this is coming from just cause he has a bunch of blessings doesn't mean he isn't skilled, he is equally as skilled as the most skilled people in the world, Ceci literally copies his space cutting, because he is just as skilled Reinhard.

And experience only gets you so far, when up against people who no amount of experience can reach.
 
Celestial_Pegasus said:
Reinhard's instinctive reactions allow him to dodge rain...
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Unquantifiable because it is physically impossible and has no explanation to make it otherwise. The volume between rain drops in an average rain storm is always less than the volume of a human body.

Means nothing in a debate of skill as a result.


Celestial_Pegasus said:
Also to say Reinhard isn't skilled, like what? Dude is a natural genius sure, but Reinhard isn't Reinhard because he is the Sword Saint, even without that, and any blessings, he would still be just as strong, just wouldn't be able to beat the cheaters.
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Without his sword saint blessings I have a hard time believing he'd be anywhere near that level of skill. He's mainly talented is what I'm saying.


Celestial_Pegasus said:
And experience only gets you so far, when up against people who no amount of experience can reach.
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Exactly. Because in re zero, Talent matters infinitely more than skill. :))
 
Phoenks said:
Unquantifiable because it is physically impossible and has no explanation to make it otherwise. The volume between rain drops in an average rain storm is always less than the volume of a human body.

Means nothing in a debate of skill as a result.
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Literally skill, Kurgan vs Garfiel was battle where there wasn't even the slightest delay between thought and action, transcendent's are just on steroids, they did it due to "instinctive intuition". Yes this feat is literally impossible irl, but it happens multiple times, we can't just ignore it, you can think it's just some bs intangibility or something, but the feat still exist and is relevant in a skill argument. This is the same verse where cutting concepts is considered the pinnacle of skill.


Phoenks said:
Without his sword saint blessings I have a hard time believing he'd be anywhere near that level of skill. He's mainly talented is what I'm saying.
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The blessing of the sword saint draws out your sword skills to their limit, hence why if Julius got it he wouldn't be any different than now, because he is already at his limit. The blessing isn't some magical stuff, it draws out your innate skill and gives you great info analysis to see your opponents weak points. Reinhard always had the skill to reach this level, the sword saint blessing was just a short cut.

Phoenks said:
Exactly. Because in re zero, Talent matters infinitely more than skill. :))
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So Wilhelm isn't skilled because his talent him reach Theresea? I don't see the point, and I can't see how you can really argue Reinhard isn't skilled, Wilhelm literally said he could never reach his level of skill.
 
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Celestial_Pegasus said:
there wasn't even the slightest delay between thought and action, transcendent's are just on steroids, they did it due to "instinctive intuition". Yes this feat is literally impossible irl, but it happens multiple times, we can't just ignore it, you can think it's just some bs intangibility or something, but the feat still exist and is relevant in a skill argument. This is the same verse where cutting concepts is considered the pinnacle of skill.
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If your argument is that he has transmutation or shapeshifting then that feat matters. If it's that he's somehow stupidly crazy skilled even more than Garou is, then no that isn't a supporting feat. It's not measurable or applicable in any way because it doesn't make any physical or logical sense. It's just a flowery sentence that was written to sound cool. And it fulfills that purpose.

Let's use actual, quantifiable feats from now on please. So we can actually compare people.


Celestial_Pegasus said:
The blessing of the sword saint draws out your sword skills to their limit, hence why if Julius got it he wouldn't be any different than now, because he is already at his limit. The blessing isn't some magical stuff, it draws out your innate skill and gives you great info analysis to see your opponents weak points. Reinhard always had the skill to reach this level, the sword saint blessing
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Ok. Again, this is not skill. As you said, it's a shortcut. He was blessed with all of that information. He never earned it himself. And it's all still failable too.

Not that it matters. I'm just saying I don't consider Reinhard to be skilled whatsoever. I don't even consider him to be smart whatsoever. He is just a lucky guy blessed by the world to be the best at things. His whole intuition thing is more of an ability than it is a skill too.
 
This conversation is just very silly. Whether you want to call what Reinhard had "skill" or "talent" makes no tangible difference. He's the exact same as he would be if he had been in thousands of difficult battles, fighting against every possible ability. There is no difference whatsoever between the him now and the version of him with abundant experience.
 
Zabazab said:
Can you define what you mean by "talented", "skilled", the difference between them, and why Reinhard is one but not the other? I think Reinhard is just both talented and skilled.
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Talent = intrinsic capacity to do something.
Skill = ability gained through work, experience, and understanding.

Reinhard explicitly lacks a lot of the latter. Reinhard has traits that allow him to intrinsically know the answers to things, but he doesn't actually understand the factors that go into said answers.

Reinhard is blessed with the capacity to simply be good at things.

It's crazy y'all act like this isn't true when half of his Divine Protections are blessings that make him intrinsically good at various tasks without actually understanding them.
 
VortechsTG said:
This conversation is just very silly. Whether you want to call what Reinhard had "skill" or "talent" makes no tangible difference. He's the exact same as he would be if he had been in thousands of difficult battles, fighting against every possible ability. There is no difference whatsoever between the him now and the version of him with abundant experience.
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Phoenks said:
Not that it matters. I'm just saying I don't consider Reinhard to be skilled whatsoever.
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I think the issue here is that you're placing a lot of emphasis on Reinhard's blessings, while discrediting Reinhard himself, when Reinhard would be just as strong as he is now without them, yes he has cool stuff like deflecting projectiles, being a great cook, never mistaking salt for sugar etc but lots of the other stuff are fundament stuff everyone of a certain level has ie dodging stuff on instinct, being good at using weapons.

Reinhard has monstrous talent, to where even as just a baby his grandmother already sensed it, and things come easy to him them others, but I don't think that makes him any less "skilled".

Reid got as "skilled" as he is, that being the pinnacle of skill in verse in 3 months, meanwhile Cecilus who has the potential to reach Reid, hasn't gotten to that level despite spending his whole life trying to reach Reid. Both have the same talent, but Cecilus has had to work harder to reach that level, does that mean once Cecilus does get to that level, he is more skilled than Reid? As for Reinhard, he didn't just instantly get as strong as he is now, it took a little time.

Reinhard's capacity to instantly know the answer to stuff isn't due to his blessings, but a common thing among transcendents.

But any this is all semantics imo, whether you think he is talented or skilled, he is beyond people who can't be reached by the most veteran of soldiers and martial artist even in a lifetime, experience doesn't matter too much, and whether you think his feats of rain dodging are illogical, it still happened, so we should actually focus on the what each character can do here to win.
 
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Even if we assume Reinhard could not be tagged by Garou ( The same dude who has control of his body on a macro-quantuum scale, can perceive and copy people on that level of precision, and has verbatim reached the level of precision to split atoms with his fists, surpassing even Nichirin who can cut with enough power to cleave mountains while phasing through everything else in his path since he's precise enough to bypass the gap between cells) he still has a lot of abilities that don't even rely on needing to hit conventionally, like:
  • Small moon sized AOE nuclear explosions.
  • Black holes that can instantly absorb said explosions and can be spawned at will.
  • The ability to spawn both of those through portals in multiple locations at once.
  • Passive radiation and the very radiation that would come out from almost every attack he has. ( Not only would it be a lot harder to dodge than rain, but he legit could get stunlocked in a death loop given Blast did mention his presence alone was eventually going to kill the planet) [Though Reinhard could probably just ask for an Anti-radiation Blessing of the nuclear fallout)
  • RE that affects his speed and even skill/technique leading to a blitz scenario ( Garou surprisingly scales to a higher speed than Reinhard in this key )

Hell, A lot of Garou's power comes from understanding "the flow of energy in the universe" and if we consider mana in Re:zero is similar to life force ( a.k.a KI, wich exists in OPM) and things could get interesting.
 
Celestial_Pegasus said:
and whether you think his feats of rain dodging are illogical
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It's not a matter of what I think in this case; it's a matter of it being objectively illogical because the measurements don't add up. Which is why it shouldn't be used. It is practically magic.

If you want real feats for Garou, just off the top of my head.

He scales immensely above people like Iaian, who can predict thousands of attacks simultaneously with his eyes closed by just sensing their murderous intent. He's able to predict multiple attacks into the future even against opponents like Saitama, whose speed is such that he'd effortlessly blitz Garou otherwise. He explicitly reads things like line of sight, center of gravity, posture, etc in order to simulate and anticipate a multitude of potential movements.

He is obviously known for his copying ability. He's able to copy the techniques of other martial arts masters like Bang & Bomb instantaneously, including secret arts that not even they could master, in an instant. He's so proficient that he can do such a thing in his sleep. His copied techniques surpass their originals pretty much instantly and are also absorbed into his composited martial art.

And yeah again his instinctive reactions is such that his body can fight against master martial artists in the OPM verse on autopilot while he's unconscious. With said martial artist possessing similar degrees of analytical prediction to himself.
 
Epiccheev said:
Even if we assume Reinhard could not be tagged by Garou ( The same dude who has control of his body on a macro-quantuum scale, can perceive and copy people on that level of precision, and has verbatim reached the level of precision to split atoms with his fists, surpassing even Nichirin who can cut with enough power to cleave mountains while phasing through everything else in his path since he's precise enough to bypass the gap between cells) he still has a lot of abilities that don't even rely on needing to hit conventionally, like:
  • Small moon sized AOE nuclear explosions.
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Forgot to mention this but rz characters can dodge rooms blowing up without exiting said room..so AoE is useless
Epiccheev said:
  • Black holes that can instantly absorb said explosions and can be spawned at will.
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He resists black holes iirc
Epiccheev said:
  • The ability to spawn both of those through portals in multiple locations at once.
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Roy was confirmed to not be on the level of transcendents in arc 9
Oh and he resists portals
Epiccheev said:
  • Passive radiation and the very radiation that would come out from almost every attack he has. ( Not only would it be a lot harder to dodge than rain, but he legit could get stunlocked in a death loop given Blast did mention his presence alone was eventually going to kill the planet) [Though Reinhard could probably just ask for an Anti-radiation Blessing of the nuclear fallout)
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This could become problematic but he can dodge rain of light and with difficulty mist of light as well

Though there is also that one blessing which makes nukes useless
Epiccheev said:
  • RE that affects his speed and even skill/technique leading to a blitz scenario ( Garou surprisingly scales to a higher speed than Reinhard in this key )

Hell, A lot of Garou's power comes from understanding "the flow of energy in the universe" and if we consider mana in Re:zero is similar to life force ( a.k.a KI, wich exists in OPM) and things could get interesting.
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Btw aren't you talking about cosmic fear mode?
 
@CastoriceTheFifth "He auto-dodges" is not an answer either. I'm asking if Reinhard is capable of doing anything after Garou attacks him with pressure points. Whether Garou can actually hit Reinhard in the first place is a different question which has already been answered by Phoenks.
 
Kachon123 said:
@CastoriceTheFifth "He auto-dodges" is not an answer either. I'm asking if Reinhard is capable of doing anything after Garou attacks him with pressure points. Whether Garou can actually hit Reinhard in the first place is a different question which has already been answered by Phoenks.
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Attack reflection and deflection, if you actually hit him he would send the force of the attack into the ground or surroundings essentially negating all damage done to him
 
Kachon123 said:
That would not necessarily work, as Garou in this key scales above Bang, whose godlike martial arts mastery surpasses supernatural attack reflection and deflection techniques.
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Olbart has a technique which is literally the fist of water (you attack him and he reflects all the damage back to you with his own force added) however this specific technique is a different version and is more on the negation of damage spectrum instead of reflecting it back, I dont recall Garou having a feat of dealing with that.
 
Btw if i am not wrong, since Reinhard's divine protections are constraints of the world, then just like fire is hot, water is cold and an apple falls to the ground. You cannot hit Reinhard as long as his DPs are working as the world itself wont allow it
 
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