Well, instead of continuing a useless back and forth with long lines of text saying the same thing. I'll just say that the claim of it "Fusionism hax" or some weird type of smurf thing shit that doesn't scale is completely baseless.
It's the only thing we have proof of and it's something we explicitly know he did.
It comes out of nowhere in an attepmt to delegitamize the statements already brought forth.
Your statements are taken out of context, extrapolated, or don't even mean what you're claiming they do to begin with lad, you can call it "delegitimizing it" or whatever you want, but I simply do not feel the evidence needed for this claim has been presented or isn't solid enough.
Zamasu still gains higher dimensional existence, fusionism, and multi location as by products of Zamasu fusing with the time.
That is true, except I'm unsure if he even did beyond standard time now, prove he fused with the hyper timeline.
What needs to be understood is that Zamasu does indeed still have ki. He's literally able to shoot it from himself after the merge. That shouldn't be a contention whatsoever.
Yep he does, prove that grew magnitudes of infinity.
Yet here we are arguing about the basics of ki. It's shown on screen, it's very simple.
You yourself have conceded that the energy they claim to felt simply isn't ki, and that's true, because it isn't, it's also he himself and his ideals in a odd abstract form. This is not part of the UES, his offensive output, and any meaningful manner to scale.
Next, Ki literally effects spacetime. We've seen multiple characters be able to bypass it's boundaries, rip it apart, warp it, etc. This is nothing new.
Ki being able to effect space time doesn't mean ki effected space-time here.
A 4D scale ability needs proof it jumped that high, and given IZ has numerous other ways to go about it, you're picking a single interpretation out of dozens of equally viable stances, and it just so happens to the the oly stance that leads to any degree of scaling.
Why should it be put into question for Zamasu for no reason? Why?
Because space-time on a 4D scale is not space-time on a 5D scale. It'd be like saying someone can break a rock so why do we need proof they can break time itself.
Also because the anime actively makes it a point that the way he does so is similar to a non-power based methodology AS it's happening.
by extension his ki is fused with spacetime,
You'd need to prove that ki grew magnitudes of infinities instead of simply staying the same output it was prior. There's zero reason to believe the ki gets stronger by fusing with anything, especially because the ki isn't even IZ himself anyhow, it's a energy pool he has sure, but to what manner would fusing with anything effect such an esoteric energy source?
and in this case they hypertimeline,
Nope gotta prove that actually.
then it should scale since he does become that construct.
He can scale durability wise (if he even did) and HDE, you still gotta prove he can use that size offensively to gain AP, or that his ki output increased by infinites alongside it.
And like I said, all of Zamasu's essence including Ki would be fused with it.
I'm not even so sure tbh, his abstract form fused with it, but even when he attacked Goku the actual form and output of his ki didn't even remotely change, despite being 4D at that point, his ki still took a 3D form, and he was still at the very least HDE when he did so there to at least on a 4D scale.
If we know that his ki doesn't change when fusing, why are we assuming it did because he might have fused a but more?
So it's an AP thing regardless. Durability would be the same thing. If his body is now a Low 1-C construct, and
you wanted to go the route of it just being durability, that also doesn't work since durability=AP since the whole of Zamasu's ki embodies his very being.
No? Never even. In fact we have rules against that. It's why we somehow get stonewalls. You need to prove your AP scales to durability, this is usually done by like, throwing a punch and not breaking your own arm and stuff, this doesn't happen here. It can't happen even, he can't actually make use of his size in a meaningful way for offense.
But I'm contesting the fact he even fused with the hypertimeline, I'd like some evidence on that front.
Asking if he can "attack with his body" is irrelevant. He doesn't need to attack with his body to have Low 1-C AP. Arguing striking strength however is another thing entirely.
You're right, he doesn't need to attack with his body, but he
DOES need to do that for the "size=AP" argument to be a thing, he doesn't, and can't, so that facet of argumentation falls through entirely.
From there, you need to prove his other means of AP scaled directly too and grew proportionately, but you haven't actually proven that, you just assert it did.
I should reiterate that Zamasu is a being who spreads his essence across the multiverse in a continuous rate. That was his will after all, becoming the sole God. This is Zamasu's choice to do this and his alone.
Which is why your "passive argument" is also flawed. It was a deliberate choice.
We've seen the space between timelines before, we see Zamasu show up in the present after spreading his essence through
the inbetween space of the timelines.
Actually, do we? Again we don't actually know how or why he did it, you're just taking a preconceived notion here, a self fulfilling argument even.
It is range, but it's to also show that this isn't just some portal hax or whatever like what the time ring does.
It's like, almost identical actually, why are we saying it's not?
Krillin simply compares it to when Goku Black did in the sense of just invading the timeline in the same manner.
In the sense? Ok how do you know that? That's rhetorical, you don't know that, because it's vague and how and why it happened could be a dozen different things, you're just choosing the power route, but really you need to prove it's by that method instead of any of the others.
Saying they "look the same" isn't enough when we are shown that it isn't
Idk man it looks pretty similar, even got that funny dark aura.
Also isn't it a bit odd that IZ began breaching
exactly where the time machine took off?
As in, much like Goku Black, who exploited the crossing between times, ie, the time wraps left by the time machine to invade the past, that IZ, might have, by chance, done the same thing, and Krillin saying "yo it's like that time", might be because it's like that time?
Like why there specifically localized entirely in that lil bit of space?
Maybe that's nothing, or maybe it's something and what they want the viewer to think, but the fact this is even a topic tells me it isn't as solid as what your OP needs to be.
And are informed of what Zamasu is doing. Hell, even when Zamasu gets erased, we are shown that this "portal" or whatever people are claiming it to be are also erased.
I mean I would hope so if the dude utilizing it got killed?
This is literally just Zamasu's essence with the same artstyle of when Goku black came through the portal, that's really it.
Which is a bad thing given what Goku Black did, how he did it, and the fact it's there in particular even.
My stance on this is just as, if not moreso, valid than your stance of it being power as the anime directly draws parallels, while your stance is simply "it's power, they didn't mean it that way", but what's the proof they didn't mean it that why?
This is exactly what I mean, extrapolation and assertation but without actual concrete evidence.
We know Beerus said Zamasu's energy is having an effect on time itself,
What time though? Hypertime, local time? And to what degree? You already explicitly said Beerus was ignorant on the details, so much so he rushed over to learn more, why are we assuming that effect was anything but IZ simply fusing with it?
we know that Zamasu's essence and Ki can breach into other timelines without any known specific Hax abilities that allows him to do these things things besides what we already know (his astral form and omnipresence).
We actually
DON'T know that and that's the problem.
We know he has a bunch of hax abilities, the anime even draws parallel to one as he does it, you yourself on record in this very thread said he was gaining new abilities, so why in the world would we assume it's power based and not the far more notable everything-else based?
Speaking of Beerus statement, again, there is no reason not to take his word at face value assuming we literally saw it happening on screen.
Yeah, we saw fusing, and that's literally it. No distortions, alterifications, or what not in any meaningful way.
Merging with spacetime is significantly affecting it, that is a "meaningful way" as some are arguing.
It's effecting it, in so far that you become part of it, but you aren't actually changing it, if anything you're changing yourself, not that spacetime.
And the fact he isn't even doing it through power, is an issue in and of itself.
He's corrupting everything, we literally see some of his affects on earth due to his evil energy and presence.
Any corruption comes from the fact the he is it now, and he's a malicious evil god. He's not doing anything like some FF boss, and no wonder too, IZ doesn't even have corruption listed in his abilities.
Just because you say a word that might be
technically correct on paper by a broad definition, doesn't mean it's how we define it as a power on wiki.
Ong I mentioned clairvoyance the other day and got called out because I sued the dictionary definition to describe it instead of the wiki definition.
It's not conjecture, it's just what we're shown.
We're shown vague visuals that can be interpreted dozens of ways with a bunch of blanks being filled in with generous assumptions that have just as equally valid fills.
That is most certainly some degree of conjecture, extrapolation, and even preconceived notions.
Worry an Angel who can affect time itself,
Bro, so? This is just vibes scaling. Whis having a hyper limited hax ability that can effect time to a marginal degree, is not means to say IZ is doing anything.
Like what is Whis Low 1-C too for rewinding time? That's the type of arguments being presented, conflating hax and unique caveats, ignoring the situation and context in which it happens, extrapolating vague statements, filling in blanks with specific interpretations to reach a specific conclusion.
along with Beerus who has Zero context and already says this energy is affecting time cannot be brushed off.
That's a
BAD thing. If he doesn't know to what extent, (which is just him fusing with it, ie not AP), he's anything but a reliable source yet he's basically the crux of your argument.
Beerus and Whis not having context is GOOD. This means that whatever is going on, it's enough to be affecting the present timeline to an alarming degree.
Yeah except we as the viewer know what that effecting is, and it's him fusing with it, or at least, trying to, that's it, and that isn't AP based in the slightest.
So goddamn pray they'd be alarmed, though you're extrapolating again, why an alarming degree? It could be a miniscule degree, the fact it's happening at all would be cause for worry, why extrapolate the degree at which it is happening?
This is just extra evidence for the claim coming from reliable characters. Their expressions, and statements say enough about it.
Ain't no way we EXPRESSION scaling in the big 25.
They aren't reliable, you yourself confirmed they had a massive lack of info and simply felt something was off, what that something was, to what degree, what exactly it entailed, and more they had zero knowledge on and they don't elaborate on it at all.
Prove it's anything past basic fusionism or attempting to breach, or hell, prove they weren't just talking about the time warp rift actually given that scene is directly, not even 1 second, straight up back to back after the Krillin line and showing IZ in the portal.
Why can't they just mean that? Would make sense, Beerus and Whis both have ki sensing that can reach earth.
Beerus never once says that Zamasu's energy is effecting the present either by the way. He says something happened in the future, and it's effecting the present. He
never says it's Zamasu's energy that you keep conflating as the cause.
Whis does say he feels energy yeah, but the portal is also opened by that point and is in fact the very next scene so of course he'd feel that, he has multiversal sensing, why couldn't he feel, what he describes as
a light tingling from a portal on earth?
I mean honestly, it can't get much better than Zamasu literally fusing with time with his own Ki, corrupting everything around him,
Contesting all of that, even your Beerus claim isn't even saying the words you're claiming it to and is taken just a wee bit out of context that makes it not quite as solid a premise as you'd want it to be for this type of thread.
breaching into other timelines without any special means that we know of,
Time Warps is a good one, especially given they basically indirectly mention that method in that exact scene, in response to said breach.
starting to spread his essence there as well (before he was stopped), worrying other powerful characters and then deducing he's messing with time, and due to his nature, going to do the same thing to others.
First one is unique situational hax.
Worrying Beerus and Whis doesn't conclude your verdict, he can still be a nuisance even without doing what you're suggesting this actual vibe scaling to entail.
They don't even say that, just that something happened, it's effecting the present, how, why, and so forth, is never elaborated upon.
"Due to his nature", is a counter argument to your very stance, it means it isn't AP or power based.
This is a blatant AP feat combined with better HDE, plain and simple. Saying it isn't is just ignoring what Ki has already been shown to do,
It's only blatant if you fill in a multitude of gaps with specific interpretations that
must be true for this conclusion to be reached. Even one off and it falls apart.
But that's a problem, why are we assuming anything? We can't be, hell isn't it a rule actually for tier 1 CRT's to feature explicit evidence and statements?
Showing what ki has been shown to do, means very little when this entire debacle has about a dozen external factors outside of ki going into it and would be completely impossible and never would have happened if it was simply ki.
I want to talk about Jiren scaling a bit here too. And this is only speaking on it for the sake of argument. If only Zamasu's durability were to scale, then this would still give other characters later down the line Low 1-C scaling. Especially a character like Jiren since he's stated to be the strongest foe they've ever faced, never encounter energy like this before, etc etc. Even characters like Beerus who sensed Zamasu
Being the strongest, ironically, only matters if IZ's AP is that high, but that's like... Literally the argument is it not?
in his post PT state was absolutely shook by him even heavily surpressed. He was hyped up as being stronger than a GoD of destruction multiple times, even including promotional material.
That's cool. Being stronger than a GoD means nothing if a GoD isn't Low 1-C, kind of putting your cart before your horse there.
The Broly novel has some things too but that's irrelevant here.
You're right. So...
The point is that it paints the GoDs as goalpost, extremely strong goalpost from what we know. This implies that GoDs>>Zamasu.
My brother in christ we're not upgrading anything off an
implication.
You need a hard statement.
The only reason I can think of for why the GoDs WOULDN'T be able to beat Zamasu is because of range issues.
Good point, why
are we assuming they could if they lack range?
But even then, we aren't sure.
We aren't sure about
any of this. Why is it suddenly an argument for when "we aren't sure" acts against your conclusion, but not when the "we aren't sure" is the effective basis of almost all your points?
But narratively, Zamasu really isn't as big of a threat as Jiren was in terms of power.
Honestly, where is this even coming from? They're completely different types of threats. Jiren was this fighter they had to box and defeat fair and square. IZ was a legit eldritch abomination they had to go full nuclear on.
The context in which both are framed and dealt with aren't even comparable.
Now, this is me talking under the belief of Zamasu's overall energy being sensed at his biggest and most complete state at the time does mean that Jiren would just be above Low 1-C Zamasu period.
The belief? Why belief and not objective proof?
As well as the GoDs. I think it would be quite weired, and even narratively inconsistent to say that these calibers of characters would be inferior to IZ. And depending on what angle you take, it means they are inferior to FZ lol, which is clearly wrong.
Need proof. Saying something is clearly wrong, just because of vibes, isn't an argument. Tbh I kinda think Jiren would mog IZ too, but that doesn't mean a thing if I can't prove it.
And again, "attacking with his own body" would just be an issue because of size, not power.
That's how you
get power via size. If he can't do it, he doesn't get it.
Saying Zamasu is Low 1-C by using his own Body doesn't make sense.
Yep, so we agree that point shouldn't be argued anymore.
It's more like Zamasu attacking with his Low 1-C energy in general;
He never does.
If he did maybe there
would be proof tbh but as it stands there's none.
Which our characters did sense the full extent of it at Zamasu's peak (at the time, and btw overtime feats still don't matter).
You're ignoring the context in which they sensed them. How they sensed them.
You're extrapolating the fact they could sense him via a portal, to mean
And ya know what the WORST part about all this is? We know for a fact, undeniable, that what you're saying happened,
didn't happen because if it did, Zamasu would not have died without having to destroy a bit of the past timeline too, but that wasn't required, so legit, ong, the ONLY thing IZ actually managed to do, was make a portal through some unknown means, and then Whis sensed via via said portal, and Beerus goes ah shit something happening basically but what he don't know because they never elaborate in the slightest and you're presuming it means things never even implied.
Also the point about "why did he suddenly get infinitely stronger" is also weird since it's largely irrelevant. It's like asking why Goku got 4D power after absorbing God ki even though he wasn't stated to have gotten infinitely stronger. It doesn't matter, they have the feats to back it up.
See that's the problem, Goku has a feat to back it up, a bunch of direct showings, hard concrete statements explaining exactly what's happening, etc. So ya know what, makes no sense but it is what it is.
That isn't the case here, IZ's only feat is making a portal, everything else is unknown variables.
Zamasu is no different in this case. After is physical vessel got destroyed, he became something new. I should also mention that
Yeah, something new, something not standard, something that breaks half the rules you're attempting to handwave to make it purely a facet of ki output.
IZ not being any stronger than MZ was already a thing that was put into question and not accepted anymore.
Then damn we REALLY shouldn't be arguing he jumped infinities then right?
It seems people expressed problems with that line of scaling for some reason since it would scale more characters to Low 1-C (lol).
I mean I have no problem with Low 1-C if there's actual concrete proof, it's just this ain't it, I would legit rather this be about Gogeta or something instead of a bunch of filling in the blacks and assumptions for IZ.
But it wouldn't matter either way since this feat still exist and really has no reason to be accepted as some sort of outlier or smurf shit.
Oh there's plenty actually, first and foremost is multiple statements by stronger characters using lower benchmarks as a display of power and fear in a manner that would denote effort, there's also the fact this is almost entirely, if not completely, a hax based feat to begin with, as in, smurf slop.
We've seen characters pull of batshit insane things in dragon ball before. Seems like a copout of a major feat and moment in the series.
Are you really arguing that because Frieza can blow up a planet, or Beerus can blow up a universe, or Hit is Hit, that automatically assuming an abstract evil god's inherent ideals of justice becoming one with the world and spreading through time and space due to a slew of external unique factors should automatically encompass botht he hypertimeline and even him breaching to an alt hypertimeline through unknown methods be a display of power and not anything else?
Lad, this ain't how it works, it don't matter what it is, things need evidence, like I understand a lil bit of extrapolation if it's fair or basic, like **** idk.
Otacon saying Raiden's skull suit uses a lil bit of tech that Solidus' suit does, and then saying Solidus' suit can tank HF blades because it diffuses the impact, and then Raiden can survive being cut with a HF blade as he fights Solidus. Like damn they don't say it DIRECTLY but lil bit of assuming there in what Otacon meant and based on what happens is fine.
This is like that but to a dozen different things at once, all far more egregious and vague like Beerus' line, while having alternative solutions at that too.
As it stands, I want proof he even fused with the hypertimeline, I want proof Whis sensing him isn't just because of the portal, I want proof that portal is explicitly done via power and not the slew of hax he has especially because the anime itself draws parallels with a hax based range method as he does it (not to mention location is a lil sussy too tbh). Those 3 things alone need to be solved before this continues, from there we can go into the other problems.
Infinite Zamasu does not have a time ring
You're right.
and there is no reason to believe he has some special hax to interact with time warps.
What about the fact he did? Like, the dude
does have a slew of hax, and the very reason he's doing this is due to said abstract hax, and in fact, if he fused with time as stated, why in the world wouldn't he be able to interact with a time wrap? Saying he can't means he can't interact with himself?
Or maybe he didn't and it's some other thing, the fact we even have to argue how he did mans there's a huge lapse in concrete evidence going on here.
Time warps which we have limited information on the mechanics of in the first place.
We have enough, given they directly, in that exact instance, as he does it, outright mention the other time that happened, using a time warp, it being depicted in a similar way as they draw that conclusion, and the fact Zamasu himself hell, would even be aware of those types of things, so there's that to think about too, is enough to second guess the claim that it was strictly power based which has even less going for it.
Similar. As in Time Ring being used to go from one timeline to another. Just like Infinite Zamasu traveling from one timeline to another.
I'm saying similar, they, the characters, are far more direct in it's likeness. The very fact they even say it to begin with, means they want the audience to acknowledge that fact.
You just don't write phrasing like that.
And you say travel, yeah sure, but the argument isn't if he did, but how he did, and as it stands, the claim it's done in a way that covers AP is merely presumptuous.
Why did Zamasu begin spreading to other timelines before fully infecting his own? This is covered in the OP.
I don't think I need to explain I disagree with the OP an how it frames a bunch of evidence while ignoring surrounding context.
Lad, I am actively contesting the OP, saying the OP covered it doesn't mean anything if I disagree with the how the OP covered it to begin with...
Actually it does. Please go over it again.
Ok so why in the world did the OP leave out the fact that Whis was simply sensing IZ through said portal? Not because he was fusing with the past? It's framed in a way that could easily be misconstrued unintentionally.
In fact why ignore the fact that IZ absolutely couldn't have gone that far because if he did that facet of the past he fused with would have needed to be destroyed by Zeno too to kill him but that didn't happen thus we know that he never actually got that far into what he was doing, which sheds scrutiny on the framing of Beerus' already vague statement, which doesn't actually elaborate or explain anything past "something is happening"?
