Infinite Zamasu: A dreadful upgrade

[Chariot190]

Again, what does using his entire body have to do with anything?

You're trying to give him AP for something he literally never uses, I shouldn't have to explain this. Again go see Zelda for an actual example.

You can still have attack potency of a high level without doing what you're describing. It just depends on the potency.

No you can't? Your argument hinges on the that's what he is, so he best be using it.

Attack with your body while being a construct, and attacking with your own potency (assuming you can use it via SS) are two different things.

His potency is blatantly inane, your argument hinges on the "he is this thing", well he best be using that thing to attack then no?

I mean, for the sake of argument,

How about for the sake of accuracy and indexing things properly instead?

it would still be Zamasu's overall attack potency rating, but the striking strength would just be worse if you go down this route. Since it relies on Zamasu just not being able to focus all of his energy into an attack, or have his attacks hit as hard as they could.

Zamasu's energy is actively shown to be unaffected.
Zamasu's energy contradicts the scope of what you're suggesting.
Zamasu by your own admission can't even seemingly channel it properly.
the only argument is if he hadn't yet actually fused and suckled up that "timeline energy" if you would, but if he hadn't yet, then we have no reason to assume he did completely.

They would just be comparing later characters to the overall "ki pool".

Prove it. Stop extrapolating and adding conjecture to things, they never say that.
Especially if he's mindless, he could have the biggest ki pool known to man and it would be awful.
It'd be like saying Kid Buu is High 3-A because his energy > 18 who has an infinite energy reserve. Like that don't matter if they can't use it that way.

Multiple characters comment on Jirens strength for example, saying it's the strongest energy they have EVER felt.

And Zamasu's energy is actively shown to be negligible and weaker than even what was before.
The actual showings take precedence over conjecture.

Everybody could sense Zamasu's power, and literally everyone just reaffirms what each other say.

Unfortunately, you've still yet to prove Zamasu's power is even on the scale you're suggesting.

Zamasu fusing with said construct, and said construct becomes him. It's not "just" fusing with it.

That is literally the definition of just fusing with it.
That's all he did, he didn't do anything besides that, they never say he did, so where are you getting it wasn't "just" that from?

It's his very being.
And I guess we do. But to me, it seems pretty clear that becoming that thing is still effecting it. Especially on the level of fusing with the fabric of space and time.

If anything it's more him being effected. In fact where, exactly, do they say he did anything but that?
Like he didn't actually alter it, change it, he simply added himself to it. He didn't actually change the base thing.

I mean Beerus knows it's the energy since his statement is an immediate follow up to what Whis said.

Extrapolation.
Beerus can sense the energy.
But his statement on effecting isn't about the energy, they do not say that.
In fact it wouldn't even make sense because he doesn't know what happened in the future and his line you're trying to frame to be this some sort of low 1-C support, is in fact, him simply stating that something happened in the future (that being, Zamasu's ass wasn't defeated) and now for some reason he can feel it in the past.
That is it.
They don't say anything else, they don't show anything else, you're taking a barebones vague statement, and then adding a bunch of nuance to it that simply doesn't exist, that simply can't exist because Beerus doesn't know what's going on.

You keep saying, "Through the portal" when It's literally just Zamasu invading their timeline, that's the entire point.

Yeah through the portal.
The only reason they can sense him, is because of that portal. they don't sense him before, they don't sense him after, their entire statement is backed around they can suddenly feel him. They don't know why they can feel him, they don't know what he's even doing, just that for some reason they can feel him in the past.
We, the audience, knows why, there's a portal now and they can sense him through it.
And yes, portal, we've already concluded the portal is simply just a range feat, not AP.

And It's already known that he was stopped before he could continue effecting the present.

And yet your argument is he was effecting the present? Because a character, who has zero context, simply sensed him and then says a vague thing that could be interpreted multiple ways?

So what did he do then? You keep saying he effected the present, but how?

I mean it does have merit since the statement literally lines up to what we literally see on screen before Zamasu shows up in the present timeline.

That statement is literally 1 second after they establish the portal being most likely hax based, and that they can sense him and that's it.

Stop putting words in character's mouths, stop putting

Lines up with what we see?
So nothing then? Absolutely nothing happens. The present isn't shown """""corrupted""""", it isn't shown fused with Zamasu, we know it wasn't fused with Zamasu because otherwise Zeno would have had to nuke whatever part he fused with too to kill him (Which he didn't), we know the only thing Zamasu was doing was fusing with it, Whis' statement itself is just saying he can feel an inkling of his ki, which makes sense given the whole funny range portal just opened up, you claim that Beerus' line is about affecting the time itself, but they never say that, we can ascertain that almost certainly isn't the case due to the aforementioned points and even how afterward nothing was altered or even as it was happening, and we know Beerus had zero context or knowledge of what was happening.

You are taking what is effectively a "they can sense him and they dont know why, theyre worried", into "yep he was altering the past hypertimeline in some sort of meaningful way we're never told or shown", when Beerus doesn't even have the information to make that claim to begin with. And like, how the hell could he anyway that would need Low 1-C sensing no? But if he had Low 1-C sensing then it becomes a circular argument. All the same you're extrapolating, this is a perfect example of what extrapolation is, you're taking a vagueline, adding meaning to it that is never said or implied, and then trying to pass that off as evidence. That isn't evidence, it's headcanon even.

Zamasu starts merging with space and time, breaches the space between timelines (yes I know what Qaw said, but I'm still mentioning it since it's part of the process),

Well unfortunately, that isn't a means to AP, that's just range, and because of that, we don't even know if he did fuse with the hypertimeline entirely by that point.

Whis notices the energy, Beerus deduces it's Zamasu, and that it is Immediately having an effect on time.

Yes, they notice his energy, through a portal, and that is it. They have no context on anything else which is why they proceed to go to earth to stop being ignorant to the events that are transpiring. You admitted this yourself, they don't even know what's going on.
He straight up doesn't say that either.
Especially given the context of the line is how Zamasu isn't dead/sealed like he should have been yet he can somehow sense him.

If, the portal is simply range and they say that line because they can, not knowing why, can sense him, for them to say "well damn something must be happening", makes sense, but it also doesn't encompass what you're trying to say it does without additional proof, and when all the proof we have says it was literally nothing, we have an issue with your claim.

I mean it's pretty simple when you look at the concept on what's happening with Zamasu in the first place. I'm using what's told to us to form this conclusion. Stop acting like it's just something that comes from nowhere. That is quite literally not the case whatsoever.

It is the case, it's extrapolation and then ignoring the other pieces of info that we're told.
It's cherry picking even, you build a case off some pieces of evidence sure, but ignore the other pieces of evidence within that same context that suggest alternatives, only arriving at your conclusion through a disconnected string of assumptions. This is both a hasty generalization and even a non-sequitur too.

There's evidence contrary to your claims, or evidence to suggest what you're claiming isn't the true, or only, interpretation, within the same scene, even closer to said things in question.

So no, you aren't "using what's told to us", you're using a few pieces of what's told, ignoring the rest, and then making a claim off that selective information.

What does sensing Zamasu before he arrived in the PT have to do with anything? They sensed him when he start invading the damn timeline and when he tangibly showed up in the present. Why would they sense him before he started to mess with their timeline? That isn't something that needs to happen just because you say it does.

It would actually help your case.
If they could sense him before the portal, you could argue that his whatever you wanna call it was in fact effecting time or the past because in that situation, we wouldn't have a giant open rift where characters can see into the other timeline/world and then be sensing him through that while also being completely ignorant to what's actually happening, so much so they have to haul ass to where he's coming out of jst to figure it out.

This doesn't happen.
As it stands they sensed him, don't know why, they're worried because as far as they know, he should be sealed or dead so something must have happened.

And that last bit, just because I say it does? This entire argument can be boiled down to that, why is anything the way you say it is just because you say it is? I want proof from the actual source material yet time and time again you're not giving it, you're giving a scan, maybe if even, and then adding a whole slew of extra nuance to that doesn't actually exist, and saying that's the proof, hen there's just as many equally, if not moreso, valid interpretations. I don't want your interpretation, I want actual proof, that's how CRT's work, so do it or stop.

We're not even sure if Whis knew the reason Zeno destroyed 6 universes at all.

Whis is completely ignorant on that?
Dude he knows, he says it objectively, they asked a simple question and bro without batting an eye says it flatout.
He has no reason to be lying, he obviously knows why given he was there and like, pretty damn sure he would have asked why the toddler went nuclear and not that it matters but in the manga it's because Beerus fell asleep in a game of hide and seek and he couldn't find him, so it's definitely intended to be trivial.

Like you're doing it again, why is it the instant the most obvious thing possible, not even up for debate, line is given you start throwing out alternatives, but the very much vague and open to interpretation Zamasu slop you're trying to enforce a concrete vision that lacks a bunch o info, has empty blank spaces, some of the stuff we don't even know how or why it happened we just have to pick and guess an option out of like a dozen, etc.

Whis just mentions not to get on his nerves because he can erase shit if he gets pissed at you.

Yes, in direct response to Vegeta asking if he ever deleted chunks of reality and in regards to the 6 universes.

They're speaking from experience sure because it already happened. It's just something we don't have a lot of context on to where it can be applied in any meaningful way here.

We don't need context (even tho we do have it like, they say it was trivial). Because Whis hard confirms that he can and will do it over even trivial things. This isn't something you get to argue.

What was the reason? What was Zeno's expression like? Did he do it instantly? Who ticked him off? Was he lenient for any amount of time?

None of that matters, we're told explicitly he can and will go nuclear over petty reasons.
So, whatever it was, was petty.
And given this is in direct context for why Beerus and Champa are outright scared shitless of him too and suck up to him as to not slightly annoy him and risk being obliterated there's zero argument to be had.

We are told he can and will go nuclear if you annoy him a bit. We are told this is precisely why everyone glazes him and avoids doing anything to piss him off even slightly. Ergo, pissing him off even slightly is grounds for obliteration the vast majority of the time and it doesn't take much.
And they even have a in universe example to draw from, with it being framed that it was done for such a would-be petty reason (and even was in the manga's canon, so take that as you will).

Did he have any consideration before doing what he did? It means very little when the only time we see Zeno seem pretty annoyed is when he snaps at his Guards,

Him giving leniency to his on the clock caretakers who help him constantly (and would probably cause him more annoyance if he did obliterate them given he won't be babied anymore by them). Doesn't detract from explicit statements and showings that he can and will delete someone over basically just about anything if you aren't careful, stated by the most reliable source, explaining why everyone goes to great lengths not to annoy him even slightly so their whole worlds don't get popped, and you're legitimately trying to frame it here as if IZ wouldn't be straight up on sight regardless of his fused status?

and maybe a couple times in the tournament of power when people we're cheating. But like, that's his all out tournament (Which he did have a plan for anyway).

Bro he straight up on sight obliterfucked those dudes who went against the rules...
Yeah he had a plan, and if that plan didn't go through he was going to literally wipe out all of existence. 17 being a chill mf was a blessing, anyone else won everyone would have died, GP says that explicitly.

Like what are you doing dude, give concrete evidence that doesn't rely on conjecture or extrapolation, it's that simple. Not to mention you have to prove he even fused with the timeline as a whole anyway now otherwise there's no reason to even continue arguing because it's just as likely Zeno destroyed him before he completed it. When the feat has a bunch of empty gaps open to interpretation you have to fill in and just assume stuff for, when you have to ignore a blatant contradiction to the stance his ki output changed in a meaningful way and if not got weaker (Unless we assume he hadn't yet fused with the hypertimeline yet which makes it ok his ki attacks weren't that strong, but if that's the case, the portal rift is explicitly not a gauge as it happens simultaneously, and at that point we have no baseline for knowing when we fused completely), when you have to extrapolate barebone vague lines off characters and ignore additional context in which those lines would have been said, when you have to ignore additional context and lines that go against your interpretation or leave it open for alternatives, when you have to start calling direct statements from characters into question because they complicate your claims, and so much more, why in the world would you think this is a solid suggestion? When you have to start arguing that we should list AP anyway despite the fact he can't even use it properly as you yourself acknowledged, it's not even 50/50, about a dozen things have to fall into place in such a way for this to all be true.
And don't get me started on the fact there's lines that essentially flatout say that nobody but Zeno is capable of destroying or effecting all of reality, yet you're trying to suggest everyone can to some degree and are Low 1-C (Like, if IZ did fuse with all of reality which still needs to be proven, this shoots down the fact anyone but Zeno could have killed him), and mind you it's not like they got stronger so it's ok, that line included Beerus, Whis, everyone tbh given Whis is who said it. But that's beside the point that's just another lil contradiction to all this, plenty more if we look.

 

[ItsMeat]

All that zamasu was shown being fused with is the future timeline and the present timeline, which are connected trough the hypertimeline. I think that due to the fact zamasu did not fuse with the entire hypertimeline(all we have seen was him cover the finite gap of what would be the distance between trunks' future and the present, which I think is 27 years) and we do not know if he is able to do so, this isn't infinite 5d, therefore it shouldn’t be L1C.

Hypertimelines are considered baseline L1C due to finite portions of them being uncountably infinite 4d(finite 5d) and baseline L1C due to their entire size being infinite, therefore infinite 5d. Thus, fusing with a finite portion of a hypertimeline should fail to quallify for L1C

@ProfectusInfinity correct me if I am wrong

 

[Shar122]

All that zamasu was shown being fused with is the future timeline and the present timeline, which are connected trough the hypertimeline. I think that due to the fact zamasu did not fuse with the entire hypertimeline(all we have seen was him cover the finite gap of what would be the distance between trunks' future and the present, which I think is 27 years) and we do not know if he is able to do so, this isn't infinite 5d, therefore it shouldn’t be L1C.

Hypertimelines are considered baseline L1C due to finite portions of them being uncountably infinite 4d(finite 5d) and baseline L1C due to their entire size being infinite, therefore infinite 5d. Thus, fusing with a finite portion of a hypertimeline should fail to quallify for L1C

@ProfectusInfinity correct me if I am wrong

Except The past and future timeline are separate hypertimelines rather than parts of a single continuum. This notion is addressed in the hypertimeline thread. An “Infinite 5-D” model is unnecessary (which presents an infinite number of said 5D construct) if a timeline already meets the criteria for a hypertimeline; as it will inevitably supports the that IZ will ultimately fuse with the present hypertimeline.

 

[Qawsedf234]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Damage3245 @Vietthai96 @Dalesean027

So I think the discussion is mostly finished by this point. So to restate the current points we have three positions:

Scenario 1 - Zamasu was killed before merger was completed

• IZ: "2-C, eventually Low 1-C"
• No other character is effected

Scenario 2 - Zamasu completed merger, people upscale from there:

• IZ: "2-C, up to Low 1-C"
• Future anime that scale above Zamasu's max output (like Jiren, SSB Gogeta, etc): "Low 1-C" or "2-C, likely Low 1-C"
• Zeno: Above baseline Low 1-C by an amount larger than any of the cast

Scenario 3 - Zamasu completed merger, range is an indicator of power

• IZ: "2-C, eventually Low 1-C" or "2-C, up to Low 1-C"
• Characters equal to or stronger than SSB Gogeta and Full Powered Super Saiyan Broly: "Low 1-C"
• Zeno: Above baseline Low 1-C by an amount larger than any of the cast

CChario's comments about the merger and Zamasu's power level leads me to believe its the first case, otherwise it woild be case two imo.

What are all of your thoughts so we can finish the CRT.

 

[Chariot190]

What are all of your thoughts so we can finish the CRT.

Wait for the thread that's not so subtly about this thread to finish first ig.
Though definitely going with 1 imo given option 2 then has a bunch of irreconcilable contradictions like the whole blatantly weaker than MZ ki (who couldn't breach anyway so that's def a hax/range thing brought on by the state and his output didn't change so AP being effected at all is brought into question either way), th fact for later options we need explicit proof he managed to complete it which we don't have beyond extrapolating, and if we dig deeper into other parts of the show, anyone but Zeno effecting the structure as a whole is basically stated impossible including by characters who mog Jiren and friends like Whis so...

 

[Hasty12345]

Wait for the thread that's not so subtly about this thread to finish first ig.

Saw this coming

 

[Damage3245]

Scenario 1 - Zamasu was killed before merger was completed

• IZ: "2-C, eventually Low 1-C"
• No other character is effected

CChario's comments about the merger and Zamasu's power level leads me to believe its the first case, otherwise it woild be case two imo.

Based on what I've read so far, Scenario 1 seems like the most fitting option - but I'll reread the thread (and the incredibly long wall of texts) before giving a final vote.

 

[CelestialVortex01]

I'm gonna have to side with scenario two, as it was pretty clear that right before the erasure Zamasu was in a more of stabilized state, indicating that he had successfuly completed his merging, option one would've been the case if zamasu's essence was still spreading but things seemed to be stable indicating that the merging process was successful (time-stamp is 2:35)

 

[Chariot190]

I'm gonna have to side with scenario two, as it was pretty clear that right before the erasure Zamasu was in a more of stabilized state, indicating that he had successfuly completed his merging, option one would've been the case if zamasu's essence was still spreading but things seemed to be stable indicating that the merging process was successful (time-stamp is 2:35)

They literally never say that.
Nothing was given to confirm that.
And all we have is Zeno going nuclear as precedence, which means absolutely nothing because he found Zamasu as a whole disgusting and said screw it (Given hard confirmed to go nuclear and wipe out realities over even mundane stuff, this isn't a good sign either way), and mind you, the plot of the ToP is he was going to destroy all of reality if he found people not nice and altruistic.

In fact, there is no "more stabilized state", where are you even getting that from?
There's no difference shown or said between there and when he was throwing ki blasts and made the portal, but we know for a fact at the time of the latter cases his AP hadn't changed by a meaningful amount, if at all, so it all just cycles back around to the fact he can't and didn't change in AP regardless if you're claiming he fused with it as a whole.

And besides, this is still vibe scaling, "it was pretty clear", what would be clear would be an actual hard statement saying he fused with the hypertimeline, not the local timeline, not even just space or the living world, and more.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Saw this coming

You saw coming that Vietthai was gonna ask something on an unrelated thread that ties into this one? Broken cosmic awareness

 

[Hasty12345]

You saw coming that Vietthai was gonna ask something on an unrelated thread that ties into this one? Broken cosmic awareness

I have been known to not be able to read very good

 

[Gamin_Yoon23]

This has been dragged on long enough. That aside I’m inclined to pick scenario two as it makes the most sense to me.

 

[CelestialVortex01]

I ain't gonna touch the scaling part, but I do have a comment on sth,

They literally never say that.
Nothing was given to confirm that.

Dude, ''They literally never say that.'' isn't even an argument lmfao, when it’s literally shown on screen, Dragon Ball has always explained stuff through visuals without a narrator/character spelling it out every time, that's like saying If X shoots fire but it wasn't said out loud then it didn't happen, We literally see Zamasu’s essence stop expanding once it covered everything, which is the clear sign the merge was complete, anyone with eyes could literally tell that, that has happened, Saying it doesn’t count because no character said the words out loud is like saying Goku never powered up because nobody announced “Oh look, his hair color has changed” ,the visuals themselves are the confirmation. Not everything has to be said outloud.

 

[Dalesean027]

I ain't gonna touch the scaling part, but I do have a comment on sth,

Dude, ''They literally never say that.'' isn't even an argument lmfao, when it’s literally shown on screen, Dragon Ball has always explained stuff through visuals without a narrator/character spelling it out every time, that's like saying If X shoots fire but it wasn't said out loud then it didn't happen, We literally see Zamasu’s essence stop expanding once it covered everything, which is the clear sign the merge was complete, anyone with eyes could literally tell that, that has happened, Saying it doesn’t count because no character said the words out loud is like saying Goku never powered up because nobody announced “Oh look, his hair color has changed” ,the visuals themselves are the confirmation. Not everything has to be said outloud.

That's just vibes then, are there statements for any of what he's asking for at all on any level of any of this? Like what are cooking here if they don't even have implications at worst and only vibes.

 

[supertomioka]

Based on what I've read so far, Scenario 1 seems like the most fitting option - but I'll reread the thread (and the incredibly long wall of texts) before giving a final vote.

I agree with this but scenario 2 doesn't seem too far fetched either

 

[SacredDao]

Scenario 1 seems reasonable to me as well (also because fusion seems to be able to increase thier power tho i don't know if it applies in this case as well).

 

[CelestialVortex01]

That's just vibes then, are there statements for any of what he's asking for at all on any level of any of this? Like what are cooking here if they don't even have implications at worst and only vibes.

So by your logic, unless a character spells everything out in words, nothing on screen counts? Dragon Ball has always relied on visuals to show what’s happening all the way from power-ups, to destructive feats without someone narrating it every time. Zamasu’s essence spreading and then stopping isn’t “vibes,” it’s the direct visual confirmation that the process finished. Pretending that doesn’t count is basically ignoring the actual storytelling.

 

[Dalesean027]

So by your logic, unless a character spells everything out in words, nothing on screen counts? Dragon Ball has always relied on visuals to show what’s happening all the way from power-ups, to destructive feats without someone narrating it every time. Zamasu’s essence spreading and then stopping isn’t “vibes,” it’s the direct visual confirmation that the process finished. Pretending that doesn’t count is basically ignoring the actual storytelling.

So not even implications at worst is what this is telling me? Got it, then count me disagree for now until evidence is actually given to back any claims

 

[Chariot190]

I ain't gonna touch the scaling part, but I do have a comment on sth,

You're gonna have to because it directly effects whether he got stronger at all, and when factoring in his AP changing based on the context (the whole argument is his ki would have grown infinity times because he fused, yet showings dictate the opposite) and your claims at hand, it's directly integral to the argument and would need to be properly rectified and figured out before scenario 2 could ever be accepted on any grounds.

Dude, ''They literally never say that.'' isn't even an argument lmfao,

Yes it it, prove it, extrapolation, conjecture, that's not what is needed here. Why is every argument just presuming things? Like we're not here to index that type of stuff.

when it’s literally shown on screen,

It actively isn't.
They never even show him merged past the mortal world for U7 in the future.

Dragon Ball has always explained stuff through visuals

No it hasn't, the vast majority of the cosmology actively stems from guidebooks and detailed explanations for example. Without it, this entire FEAT wouldn't be past Low 2-C.

without a narrator/character spelling it out every time,

Except the vast majority of things.

This isn't the same as Freeza blows up planet so calc planet being blown up.
A bunch of things require detailed evidence and explanations, take the lights from Broly, without those extra statements explaining the scope of what happened, it would mean literally nothing.
Take the majority of the cosmology, with guides and statements it wouldn't even be past low 2-C, again, the vast majority o anything past big explosion in DB very much has it spelt out, because it's required to.

that's like saying If X shoots fire but it wasn't said out loud then it didn't happen,

False equivalence and a strawman.
By this logic I'd be more inclined to say IZ isn't even tier 7 based purely on the visuals of his attacks, but I'm not doing that am I?

We literally see Zamasu’s essence stop expanding once it covered everything,

We never see him cover everything, the most we see is a space shot, which, happens before the aforementioned points, ie, when he attacked the gang and when he breached (so if we're going by visuals, the visuals you claim is proof, would also occur beforehand).
That is the best we are shown, and it happens before the contradictory notion, which, proves his AP didn;t get stronger by association.

If you're going strictly off visuals? He only fused with the mortal world of future U7, and it didn't effect his statistics at all because that's what we're blatantly shown. So yes, statements, proof, you want visuals only? That doesn't help your case.

which is the clear sign the merge was complete,

\No it isn't, because they never show the scale you're suggesting, they never say he merged completely, and the most extreme shot we get, happens simultaneously with th showings that dictate his AP remained unaffected by any sort of merger so regardless of your claim, we cycle back around to the fact his AP never changed to begin with.

The only argument is that he somehow successfully merged completely after the fact of his blatant misshowings and the evidence that proves he didn't get stronger in output, but there's literally no proof and it most certainly isn't "shown" that he merged with the full cosmology afterward so as I said, there's no evidence, no proof, it's simply vibe scaling and extrapolating off a character who as a plot point was going to destroy all of reality if he didn't find people altruistic and is liable to do so over trivial things, as going nuclear against the eldritch entity he found revolting who just did a mass genocide.

anyone with eyes could literally tell that,

I'm using my eyes and what you're claiming is never shown. Your interpretation, because mind you that's all that is, no statement, no real showing, never shown on the scale you claim, and even has blatant contradictions to it, is not proof enough here.

that has happened, Saying it doesn’t count because no character said the words out loud is like saying Goku never powered up because nobody announced “Oh look, his hair color has changed”

That's a long since established fact, cease with the blatant false equivalencies as if an established fact stated hundreds of times elsewhere is the same as an abstract entity fusing with a hypertimeline that you can only conclude off extrapolating or filling in blanks at multiple spots while also ignoring several lines and statements within the scenes itself that complicate said matters.

,the visuals themselves are the confirmation.

Ok so he only fused with the mortal realm of future U7 because that's all the visuals ever showed.

Not everything has to be said outloud.

They do if here's a dozen interpretations, yes.

So by your logic, unless a character spells everything out in words, nothing on screen counts? Dragon Ball has always relied on visuals to show what’s happening all the way from power-ups, to destructive feats without someone narrating it every time. Zamasu’s essence spreading and then stopping isn’t “vibes,” it’s the direct visual confirmation that the process finished. Pretending that doesn’t count is basically ignoring the actual storytelling.

Given he was attempted to fuse with the past, and yet was killed before he managed, despite having had a portal open for quite some time, shows that he was still in the process actually.
That actually implies he DIDNT finish fusing with the whole future thinking on it, because if he did, why HADN'T he started to fuse into the past directly? Like we know straight up he didn't because if he did fuse, whatever portion of past he became one with would have needed to be nuked to in order to kill IZ yeah? So like, why did he, according to your claims, complete the hypertimeline merger, hae a way to the past, but then just stop.

 

[Dalesean027]

You’re not seeming to get this is an indexing wiki first and you're required to have at least some evidence to back any claims. It only makes sense for this to be the case, saying just "look at the screen bro see low 1-C" like isn't gonna cut it especially with the tiers we're dealing with here. So yeah I can't in good faith agree with any of this when you're failing to provide even just supplementary evidence on the lowest level and are just defaulting to just basically "look at it" as your evidence for the upgrade.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Scenario 2 seems like the most logical.

 

[supertomioka]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Damage3245 @Vietthai96 @Dalesean027

So I think the discussion is mostly finished by this point. So to restate the current points we have three positions:

Scenario 1 - Zamasu was killed before merger was completed

• IZ: "2-C, eventually Low 1-C"
• No other character is effected

Scenario 2 - Zamasu completed merger, people upscale from there:

• IZ: "2-C, up to Low 1-C"
• Future anime that scale above Zamasu's max output (like Jiren, SSB Gogeta, etc): "Low 1-C" or "2-C, likely Low 1-C"
• Zeno: Above baseline Low 1-C by an amount larger than any of the cast

Scenario 3 - Zamasu completed merger, range is an indicator of power

• IZ: "2-C, eventually Low 1-C" or "2-C, up to Low 1-C"
• Characters equal to or stronger than SSB Gogeta and Full Powered Super Saiyan Broly: "Low 1-C"
• Zeno: Above baseline Low 1-C by an amount larger than any of the cast

CChario's comments about the merger and Zamasu's power level leads me to believe its the first case, otherwise it woild be case two imo.

What are all of your thoughts so we can finish the CRT.

I think the op should have explained how this upgrade affects other characters or if it should in the first place, I think at this stage, additional arguments only serve to derail the thread and this should be the topic of discussion,

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

What are all of your thoughts so we can finish the CRT.

I agree with Scenario 1 based on everything I've read.

 

[Vietthai96]

Scenario 2 - Zamasu completed merger, people upscale from there:

• IZ: "2-C, up to Low 1-C"
• Future anime that scale above Zamasu's max output (like Jiren, SSB Gogeta, etc): "Low 1-C" or "2-C, likely Low 1-C"
• Zeno: Above baseline Low 1-C by an amount larger than any of the cast

I go with Scenario 2, since before Zeno erasure, IZ already show to be able to affect Goku's timeline.

 

[Chariot190]

I go with Scenario 2, since before Zeno erasure, IZ already show to be able to affect Goku's timeline.

Which as we've established is but a range feat, not like such a thing is unprecedented in that very same saga.
And which we've also established has blatant contradictions simultaneously based on the fact concurrently his attack output was shown to have not changed in any meaningful way, which takes precedence over any assumptions, thus making the claim his AP somehow grew infinites or in a way due to fusing, is actively contradicted based on the material itself.

If you mean the Beerus' line, that line is made based solely on the context he knows Zamasu isn't dead/sealed in the future like he was supposed to be, and he can feel him in the past somehow so something must be happening, what that is, or why that is, he has no idea, so much so he hauls off to earth to learn what that thing might be. this isn't even remotely grounds for the scope of what you're suggesting.
And we know for a fact he didn't affect the timeline in any meaningful way because not only are we shown zero changes to it, but he most certainly didn't fuse with it (ie, the only thing we're told and shown that he was doing to it, to assume anything else you'd need to effectively make up entirely new things for him to have done, but what those things might be is impossible to tell because they never say or imply anything but) otherwise Zeno would have needed to destroy that too, which, he didn't.
Or do you mean simply the portal? The portal they directly draw parallels with a time warp, and the time ring, things that use not AP but hax and unconventional abilities to travel to the past, and especially in IZ's case where he merely reached the past, localized entirely at Capsule Corp and nowhere else in the entire past hypertimeline, in the same spot the Time Machine and Time Ring were used frequently, which, we know, leaves time warps that can be exploited to reach between those dimensions, because they straight up say as much, and is exactly how Goku Black first came to the past by exploiting the warp left by Trunk's time machine, which, again, IZ's emergence is directly compared to. Vastly complicating any notion that him doing that is somehow based on AP and instead can be, and probably intended to be based on the lines, taken in a vast many other ways.

Like be real now, you want to use the affecting the past as evidence? All you have is he made a portal, in a way that's left actively ambiguous and thus not even remotely solid, doesn't actually implicate power, and would happen simultaneously in a display of power that shows his AP didn't at all change, which takes active precedence over any fanon or non-stated extrapolation people want to make based on something that isn't even explained or the implications of such to begin with.
As such, give actual proof of the claims that don't lead with "I think", "I feel", or "I believe", something the material itself blatantly states.

 

[TiltedFN]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Damage3245 @Vietthai96 @Dalesean027

So I think the discussion is mostly finished by this point. So to restate the current points we have three positions:

Scenario 1 - Zamasu was killed before merger was completed

• IZ: "2-C, eventually Low 1-C"
• No other character is effected

Scenario 2 - Zamasu completed merger, people upscale from there:

• IZ: "2-C, up to Low 1-C"
• Future anime that scale above Zamasu's max output (like Jiren, SSB Gogeta, etc): "Low 1-C" or "2-C, likely Low 1-C"
• Zeno: Above baseline Low 1-C by an amount larger than any of the cast

Scenario 3 - Zamasu completed merger, range is an indicator of power

• IZ: "2-C, eventually Low 1-C" or "2-C, up to Low 1-C"
• Characters equal to or stronger than SSB Gogeta and Full Powered Super Saiyan Broly: "Low 1-C"
• Zeno: Above baseline Low 1-C by an amount larger than any of the cast

CChario's comments about the merger and Zamasu's power level leads me to believe its the first case, otherwise it woild be case two imo.

What are all of your thoughts so we can finish the CRT.

Well, I am still of the opinion that it's option 2. I think that Zamasu did in fact complete the merge. And there is just so many comments flooding the thread that I'll just type this one and I guess be done with it. No use in dragging this on. First off:

Well as originally typed out by me, I am of the opinion that there was any reason for Zamasu to start invading the present timeline and effecting time there before fusing with his own. Especially with Zamasu wanting to be the sole God of everything. I mean that's the reason he killed all the Gods in the first place since nobody believed in his ideals, hence seeing them as a liability. So it does make sense since Zamasu knows about Zeno. Yes he was arrogant, but that doesn't make his goals any less clear, which is what leads me to believe Infinite Zamasu would just fuse with everything. And besides, he was just passively fusing with the time stream more and more anyways before starting to do it in the present, which is where "Eventually Low 1-C" comes from. And like I mentioned, Zamasu effecting time to some degree on even the main present hypertimeline even with a lesser influence is also a pretty big implication that he did it entirely to the future timeline all things considered.

I already mentioned that Manga Zeno and Anime Zeno are completely different. Even future and present Zeno shared some of the same views and weren't just completely blood lusted like the manga was. They both had some of the thoughts about how mortals could change, and had even predicted the outcome of the tournament of power which means they didn't have the intent of just erasing everything as far as we know. It's true Zeno does have a weird temper and can and will destroy things on a whim, but going as far as to destroy literally the entire world even his own home? That implies that Zeno though it was necessary to just erase Zamasu from the world, and by extension the world entirely since he saw all of this as nasty and repulsive, seeing as how Zamasu fused with time and space itself on the level of a hypertimeline. Things like erasing 6 universe is definitely something, but we don't know how mad he actually got in this case, but were talking all of existence here. So it would be the question of "what does it take for Zeno to erase and entire world?" And all we have for that answer is a multiversal entity that was infecting and merging his very essence with time itself. I think considering everything, that this pretty strongly supports the argument.

As for the anti feats thing with IZ. I'll say again that it was never stated that Goku and Vegeta would actually be able to beat IZ. Goku makes the Senzu Bean comment, but doesn't say definitely what he'd be able to do. Not sure if the Raw says something else, but Goku is only talking in context of him being able to try and fight Zamasu at the least. Goku, Trunks, and Vegeta's combined attacks (even though they were fatigued, but still) did nothing and bounced right off of Zamasu without seemingly any difficulty at all speaking in terms of Zamasu's durability. And especially in the context of Dragon Ball, strength outliers do exist, and can be the case for certain things, like Gowasu and Shin using a barrier to block one of Zamasu's beams. Even though barriers can block attacks way stronger than them, this is still an angle that you can argue. Not to mention Goku and Vegeta took attacks from a corrupted Merged Zamasu in base form and were fine afterwards. That doesn't imply any relativity, because we KNOW they would lose due to even Vegito Blue struggle a bit, but it's just some of the wacky shit that happens in Dragon Ball. But to be honest, even if you think it just makes the case a bit weaker, I don't think that's any reason to dismiss it entirely to be honest off of like one wacky scene. Especially when others are willing to accept outliers just to not get characters to scale to things they do on screen.

Someone also brought up the argument that since Zamasu was just mindlessly destroying everything and shooting blast out of himself that his attacks weren't focused at all, which is why they were able to be held off a bit, even if they were overpowered pretty hopelessly. This is also an angle you can go at since we've actually seen it before. You can still have the AP but not the striking strength to release all your powers into hits in certain cases. Cell Max had this issue iirc, Gas did as well, but it was intentional. Regardless, keep this in mind.

Assuming we do go with the "Eventually Low 1-C rating". I don't know why it's being argued that later characters like Jiren can't scale when he's treated just as the biggest threat entirely from any past foes. I'm of the opinion that just narratively it would make sense since it paints the Gods of Destruction as just being a big fking deal and that Jiren surpassing one is just seen as this incomprehensible thing entirely. Would this not place Jiren above the full capabilities of Infinite Zamasu? I mean he's hyped up as transcending time (yes I know, I'm just saying it since it's a good statement of strength) being incomprehensible, being above GoDs, etc. It would be pretty weird to be like, "Oh yeah Jiren is definitely the strongest foe ever, well except for IZ if he finished, then HE would be the strongest". I think it paints Jiren as above the capabilities of Zamasu in general, someone who is not treated as a localized threat by the end, which would include the Low 1-C rating, at least in terms of AP.

So yes, I am of the opinion that Option 2 would be best here, and I disagree with the notion that nobody besides Zamasu would scale going with option 1. All the arguments are laid out, so staff can just look at this and come to a conclusion if they don't change their mind on the current opinions they had. If it's split, wait for more staff, simple. I would appreciate not replying to this with a wall of text because I'll just ignore it since these are conclusions I guess.

 

[Chariot190]

Well as originally typed out by me, I am of the opinion that there was any reason for Zamasu to start invading the present timeline and effecting time there before fusing with his own.

The fact he didn't fuse with the past at all in that timeframe, not even slightly, not even remotely?
This isn't up for debate because we know Zeno didn't need to touch the past to kill, which he would have had to do if Zamasu did, in fact, begin fusing with the past.

Especially with Zamasu wanting to be the sole God of everything. I mean that's the reason he killed all the Gods in the first place since nobody believed in his ideals, hence seeing them as a liability. So it does make sense since Zamasu knows about Zeno. Yes he was arrogant, but that doesn't make his goals any less clear, which is what leads me to believe Infinite Zamasu would just fuse with everything.

Just because he wanted to do it, doesn't mean he completed it in the timeframe we're given,
the very fact he didn't merge at all with the past yet, before Zeno killed him, actively suggests he didn't complete the merger yet. Like yeah he wanted to, and he WAS working on it, but that doesn't mean he finished.

And besides, he was just passively fusing with the time stream more and more anyways before starting to do it in the present, which is where "Eventually Low 1-C" comes from.

Yeah, eventually, eventually is not "he managed to do it successfully before dying".
You say starting to do it in the present, but your argument at the moment is he fused completely with the future and THEN went to the past, so why in the world is it taking him about 20x longer to even BEGIN fusing with the past, then it did for your, by your claims, fuse with the future?
It doesn't make sense.

And like I mentioned, Zamasu effecting time to some degree on even the main present hypertimeline even with a lesser influence is also a pretty big implication that he did it entirely to the future timeline all things considered.

You need to actually prove that still.
And no, "big implication", everything argued thus far has been nothing but implications, you can't just say it's implied to a dozen different things, and all those things need to be interpreted in such and such a way, for you to ultimately arrive at your sole conclusion. When if even one of said things is off, it falls apart completely.

I already mentioned that Manga Zeno and Anime Zeno are completely different.

They act the same way, and the anime is actively worse in that context because the anime is the Zeno who is stated to be willing to destroy all of reality if he ends up finding humanoids mean or whatever or that he can go nuclear if annoyed.

Even future and present Zeno shared some of the same views and weren't just completely blood lusted like the manga was.

This is a bad thing when we have an entire plot that would have ended with the destruction of the whole hypertimeline if Zeno concluded that people didn't deserve to live, in a way IZ would have embodied in every way.

They both had some of the thoughts about how mortals could change, and had even predicted the outcome of the tournament of power which means they didn't have the intent of just erasing everything as far as we know.

The Grand Priest, on god, says that if 17 didn't wish for everyone back, showing his altruistic nature, if ANY other wish was made, Zeno would wiped away all of reality including the winners.
If anything you'd think the fact they went that far and were that close to going nuclear, would be in part due to IZ anyhow, like they KNOW how bad people are, you could easily argue they wanted proof of change and kindness to change their current opinions on life.

It's true Zeno does have a weird temper and can and will destroy things on a whim, but going as far as to destroy literally the entire world even his own home?

I mean, he did it, and we're told by Whis he would, and he was going to in the ToP if people didn't meet a certain kindness standard. So, ya know, yeah actually 100%.

That implies that Zeno though it was necessary to just erase Zamasu from the world, and by extension the world entirely since he saw all of this as nasty and repulsive,

He was going to erase the ENTIRE cosmology if 17 didn't wish for the other worlds back, why not just delete the people instead and start over with newlife? Why wipe out the hypertimeline too?
Don't matter why, that's what he does and is established to do.

He saw this disgusting revolting entity, he looks around and sees nothing but destruction and death, and says **** it, this shit gotta go, you're extrapolating here.

seeing as how Zamasu fused with time and space itself on the level of a hypertimeline.

You're assuming this part, it's just as likely he hadn't yet even if he was going to.

Things like erasing 6 universe is definitely something, but we don't know how mad he actually got in this case, but were talking all of existence here.

Yes we do, Whis says he was simply annoyed. And the manga tells us why, he uh, couldn't find Beerus in a game of hide and seek, got pissed off, and destroyed 6 universes in the process.
You might say "oh that's the manga, not the anime", and you'd be right, but the intent is there, especially because Whis directly says that just annoying him is enough in the context of why he destroyed those 6 universes when Vegeta asked. And thus says it's why Beerus and others glaze him and try everything not to even slightly annoy him if possible lest they risk total annihilation on that scale.

So it would be the question of "what does it take for Zeno to erase and entire world?"

Apparently not much according to Whis.

And all we have for that answer is a multiversal entity that was infecting and merging his very essence with time itself. I think considering everything, that this pretty strongly supports the argument.

Actually we have 3 answers.
A disgusting freak merging with the world to some degree who just laid out genocided everything and all Zeno sees is that monster + death and ruin.
People not being altruistic enough (So, IZ definitely takes the cake there).
Losing a game of hide and seek... Or if anime only context, being slightly annoyed.

As for the anti feats thing with IZ. I'll say again that it was never stated that Goku and Vegeta would actually be able to beat IZ.

They tank his ki attacks, block them even. That's an anti feat, it shows his ki didn't change with the merger, this takes precedence over any assumptions or guesswork that might come with a merger.

Goku makes the Senzu Bean comment, but doesn't say definitely what he'd be able to do.

The fact he even thinks he has a chance is enough ngl.
Like you keep arguing they can sense energy, so either Goku can't sense his full energy so every argument about scaling gets tossed, or his energy output didn't actually change much.

Not sure if the Raw says something else, but Goku is only talking in context of him being able to try and fight Zamasu at the least.

The fact that's even suggested is problematic to the claim.

Goku, Trunks, and Vegeta's combined attacks (even though they were fatigued, but still) did nothing and bounced right off of Zamasu without seemingly any difficulty at all speaking in terms of Zamasu's durability.

Well sure, durability is one thing, but durability due to the structure is not durability due to the UES.
Also... Man you can't in the same sentence say they were actually super weakened, deadass and fatigue, like yeah that's probably why it didn't do much (Not to mention Zamasu is immortal and attacks don't actually do much to him but that's beside the point, so he's always fresh, they aren't, plus the Goku line itself implies they might've done a lil to him on the scale he was at at the time if not deadass so that whole point is moot).

And especially in the context of Dragon Ball, strength outliers do exist, and can be the case for certain things, like Gowasu and Shin using a barrier to block one of Zamasu's beams. Even though barriers can block attacks way stronger than them, this is still an angle that you can argue.

So that's an outlier, but your suggestions aren't?

Not to mention Goku and Vegeta took attacks from a corrupted Merged Zamasu in base form and were fine afterwards. That doesn't imply any relativity, because we KNOW they would lose due to even Vegito Blue struggle a bit, but it's just some of the wacky shit that happens in Dragon Ball.

Doesn't matter, they were still completely floored and there was some zenkais and emotion boosts going on at times there too.
Here they're deadass, fatigued, and yet somehow doing better in fending the attacks off.

But to be honest, even if you think it just makes the case a bit weaker, I don't think that's any reason to dismiss it entirely to be honest off of like one wacky scene. Especially when others are willing to accept outliers just to not get characters to scale to things they do on screen.

Off one wacky scene? It's the only time he does anything.
You want to take a vague portal that could be done in a dozen ways, and a statement that doesn't even mean what you're claiming it does, over the actual scene where he attacks and uses his energy output?

Does what onscreen exactly? He never uses his scope offensively, we don't have proof he even fused with it all and even some evidence to suggest he didn't, the only thing he does on screen is attack characters with ki that isn't even remotely changed and if not argued weaker.
So what did he do exactly? Begin fusing with something via extreme circumstances and that's it because we have nothing else to go on?

Someone also brought up the argument that since Zamasu was just mindlessly destroying everything and shooting blast out of himself that his attacks weren't focused at all, which is why they were able to be held off a bit, even if they were overpowered pretty hopelessly. This is also an angle you can go at since we've actually seen it before. You can still have the AP but not the striking strength to release all your powers into hits in certain cases. Cell Max had this issue iirc, Gas did as well, but it was intentional. Regardless, keep this in mind.

My dude, that's a counterargument, it means IZ had absolutely no way to utilize that energy properly, his ki and energy pool would have been weakened exponentially because one of the major facets of it simply doesn't exist or was in shambles.

You agreeing with this or suggesting it's a possibility is straight up disagreeing with your own OP, if he lacked one of the 3 major facets of ki and because of that couldn't use his energy properly so it was infinites weaker, and mind you this would effect the ki pool as a whole, diminishing it, there's no he's low 1-C in AP here, it's proof he wouldn't be with an established explanation for why he wouldn't be even.

Assuming we do go with the "Eventually Low 1-C rating". I don't know why it's being argued that later characters like Jiren can't scale when he's treated just as the biggest threat entirely from any past foes.

Well you just gave one, he's mindless so his ki is in shambles and can't be used at all in a meaningful way?
We know his ki output was kinda lame too.

So yeah, Jiren IS a way bigger threat based on the sole fact he can actually attack you.

I'm of the opinion that just narratively it would make sense since it paints the Gods of Destruction as just being a big fking deal and that Jiren surpassing one is just seen as this incomprehensible thing entirely.

Opinion, narratively, but not fact?
I'm of the opinion that a character who we haven't proven did half the things you stated and every single one of your points is simply a specific interpretation, is not evidence enough.
I'm of the opinion that if we have a character who's power is shown unchanged, characters infinitely weaker than Jiren can stand ground, his manner of attack relies solely on a energy source that would be gutted now due to his state of mind, that saying that Jiren would scale to a hypothetical eventual perfect version with a clear mind and output that scales to the thing we don't have proof on, is skipping about a dozen steps of proof here.

Would this not place Jiren above the full capabilities of Infinite Zamasu?

No. It would place him above the dogwater version we see that is vague and has compromised everything.

I mean he's hyped up as transcending time (yes I know, I'm just saying it since it's a good statement of strength) being incomprehensible,

Bro, the fact he's hyped up as transcending 4D time because of Hit's Time Cage which he barely can move in mind you, is kind of a anti-feat for everyone before him. Hit's time cage isn't using hypertime.

being above GoDs, etc.

Means nothing, we don't actually know how Gods stack up against IZ let alone a perfected one.

It would be pretty weird to be like, "Oh yeah Jiren is definitely the strongest foe ever, well except for IZ if he finished, then HE would be the strongest".

Yeah? Like, by that logic Jiren isn't the strongest either because FREEZA is actually the strongest IF he trained for a long time? Why would they include things that literally don't happen yet?

I think it paints Jiren as above the capabilities of Zamasu in general,

You think based on maybes based on something you just said one sentence above if it happened, isn't proof.

someone who is not treated as a localized threat by the end, which would include the Low 1-C rating, at least in terms of AP.

You need to actually use that state to have the AP, you've already conceded he cant use his body, kick, punch, use his size in anyway to attack, you've already conceded his ki was likely weakened and in shambles due to lacking the mind aspect of ki, and so much more, why would this ever be AP?
And as way above, not being treated as a localized threat doesn't mean he completed the merge, we basiclaly know for a fact he hadn't yet done so completely, because he didn't actually begin fusing with the past yet, ie, he was still working on the future.

So yes, I am of the opinion that Option 2 would be best here, and I disagree with the notion that nobody besides Zamasu would scale going with option 1.

He would be the only person to scale even if we assume he somehow merged with it all for hypothetical's sake, based on things you claimed in this very post like his ki lacking mind and thus would be infinitely weaker to explain why Goku and pals could contend.

All the arguments are laid out, so staff can just look at this and come to a conclusion if they don't change their mind on the current opinions they had. If it's split, wait for more staff, simple. I would appreciate not replying to this with a wall of text because I'll just ignore it since these are conclusions I guess.

I don't care if you ignore it, it's fine if you want to, but, it's important for other people to see where such points don't hold up to make a proper conclusion. If you say something faulty, it needs to be pointed out as such, leaving it as be would just leave others with info that could lead to a misinformed verdict.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Someone summarise for me what exactly the current argument is.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Okay, unless someone can explain some extra layer of evidence against scaling that I'm unaware of:

Surviving and blocking IZ's lasers

• Unless you want to argue that IZ is weaker than exhausted Base Goku, Base Vegeta, Shin and Gowasu I don't see the rationale. For a character that spent years tormenting Trunks what do you think is more likely? That he's just randomly too weak to kill these people? Or that he's just laughing his head off having fun here? This doesn't work well at all.

Zeno's characterisation

• Did Zeno erase 6 universes? Yes. Did he erase the world before? No. So why did he erase the world here if just erasing U7 would have solved the issue? Zeno being depicted as a child doesn't really hold up when the anime makes a point of him having deeper underlying plans for Goku and co. in the Tournament of Power and giving mortals a chance to make a virtuous wish with Super Shenron. The point on Zeno is simply conjecture. So it can't be considered a concrete argument.

Zamasu merging with the timeline

• Zeno opted to erase the world rather than simply the universe, and even commented on how the world deserved to be erased after seeing Infinite Zamasu
• Zamasu, by becoming Infinite Zamasu, suddenly gained the power to access timelines like the Present Timeline. Something which Chariot actually brought up via his Time Warp argument. Issue is the connection between the Future Timeline and Present Timeline are between two higher temporal dimensions, not U7 to U7. And Zamasu is not a Time Ring or a Time Machine with a built-in ability to hop worlds. When did Zamasu gain the ability to go to another timeline? If it was via the connection between timelines then logically it was when he merged with the Future Timeline, which was already connected to the Present Timeline if you go with the 'Time Machine created a time warp between the timelines' theory.

I, personally, do not see why a Possibly Low 1-C rating for characters scaling above Zamasu would not be an acceptable conclusion. As there does not appear to be any concrete evidence against Zamasu merging with the timeline prior to his erasure whereas I have legitimate reason to think he did.

 

[StekFence]

Unless you want to argue that IZ is weaker than exhausted Base Goku, Base Vegeta, Shin and Gowasu I don't see the rationale. For a character that spent years tormenting Trunks what do you think is more likely? That he's just randomly too weak to kill these people? Or that he's just laughing his head off having fun here? This doesn't work well at all.

Considering the state of his mind? Yeah it’s possible his ap was effectively shot

 

[StekFence]

Did Zeno erase 6 universes? Yes. Did he erase the world before? No. So why did he erase the world here if just erasing U7 would have solved the issue? Zeno being depicted as a child doesn't really hold up when the anime makes a point of him having deeper underlying plans for Goku and co. in the Tournament of Power and giving mortals a chance to make a virtuous wish with Super Shenron. The point on Zeno is simply conjecture. So it can't be considered a concrete argument.

I disagree, it’s not conjecture to claim a petulant child who has previously shown the capacity and willingness to overkill in his destruction may be doing the same in this scenario. Or rather, the scale of the destruction shown isn’t concrete evidence that it was necessary.

Zeno opted to erase the world rather than simply the universe, and even commented on how the world deserved to be erased after seeing Infinite Zamasu

Debatably evidence of the former. Or at least not evidence either way.

 

[GG55HH]

Which as we've established is but a range feat, not like such a thing is unprecedented in that very same saga.
And which we've also established has blatant contradictions simultaneously based on the fact concurrently his attack output was shown to have not changed in any meaningful way, which takes precedence over any assumptions, thus making the claim his AP somehow grew infinites or in a way due to fusing, is actively contradicted based on the material itself.

If you mean the Beerus' line, that line is made based solely on the context he knows Zamasu isn't dead/sealed in the future like he was supposed to be, and he can feel him in the past somehow so something must be happening, what that is, or why that is, he has no idea, so much so he hauls off to earth to learn what that thing might be. this isn't even remotely grounds for the scope of what you're suggesting.
And we know for a fact he didn't affect the timeline in any meaningful way because not only are we shown zero changes to it, but he most certainly didn't fuse with it (ie, the only thing we're told and shown that he was doing to it, to assume anything else you'd need to effectively make up entirely new things for him to have done, but what those things might be is impossible to tell because they never say or imply anything but) otherwise Zeno would have needed to destroy that too, which, he didn't.
Or do you mean simply the portal? The portal they directly draw parallels with a time warp, and the time ring, things that use not AP but hax and unconventional abilities to travel to the past, and especially in IZ's case where he merely reached the past, localized entirely at Capsule Corp and nowhere else in the entire past hypertimeline, in the same spot the Time Machine and Time Ring were used frequently, which, we know, leaves time warps that can be exploited to reach between those dimensions, because they straight up say as much, and is exactly how Goku Black first came to the past by exploiting the warp left by Trunk's time machine, which, again, IZ's emergence is directly compared to. Vastly complicating any notion that him doing that is somehow based on AP and instead can be, and probably intended to be based on the lines, taken in a vast many other ways.

Like be real now, you want to use the affecting the past as evidence? All you have is he made a portal, in a way that's left actively ambiguous and thus not even remotely solid, doesn't actually implicate power, and would happen simultaneously in a display of power that shows his AP didn't at all change, which takes active precedence over any fanon or non-stated extrapolation people want to make based on something that isn't even explained or the implications of such to begin with.
As such, give actual proof of the claims that don't lead with "I think", "I feel", or "I believe", something the material itself blatantly states.

So let me get this straight, you're saying zamasu didn't fully fuse with trunks timeline before he entered Goku's right?

 

[Chariot190]

Okay, unless someone can explain some extra layer of evidence against scaling that I'm unaware of:

Surviving and blocking IZ's lasers

• Unless you want to argue that IZ is weaker than exhausted Base Goku, Base Vegeta, Shin and Gowasu I don't see the rationale.

Sure why not? If that's what's shown, and he lacks a major facet of ki, it is what it is.

• For a character that spent years tormenting Trunks what do you think is more likely? That he's just randomly too weak to kill these people? Or that he's just laughing his head off having fun here? This doesn't work well at all.

That he's gone batshit crazy especially because even as he has them dead to rights he stops attacking completely and just spends an oddly insane amount of time just screaming and laughing and never once follows up to kill them after the initial burst, implicating that yo hey maybe he's no longer sane?
He doesn't even really do anything when Zeno is legit brought in and Goku rats Zamasu out, he just stays there laughing and screaming, like at that point you WOULD think Zamasu would go "oh shit I gotta get out of here!" and then immediately fuse with the past so he uh, isn't killed if Zeno goes nuclear?

Also technically not true, this isn't Goku Black, Goku Black actually died.

It works well because that's what we actually see, are flatout shown, and character lines suggest as much like Goku obviously not sensing his power increase by infinite times as to even contemplate boxing him if he had a senzu, zamasu's actual on screen feats, and of course, an actual established facet in how ki actually works, which correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't most of the arguments "well that's how ki works!", why we suddenly ignoring how ki works?

Zeno's characterisation

• Did Zeno erase 6 universes? Yes.

Yep, willing to go nuclear over mundane things, manga even says it was over hide and seek.

• Did he erase the world before? No.

Whis actually says you gotta be careful with him so he doesn't do that. I would wgaer money on the fact that Zeno being brought in forcefully by people he doesn't know, seeing this disgusting freak trying to merge with reality, as he scans around and sees nothing but death and destruction (Don't forget that btw, he actively looks around first before deciding and sees no life and ruin), I would say that this is well beyond the scope for him to go nuclear, especially given the plot of the ToP.

• So why did he erase the world here if just erasing U7 would have solved the issue?

Idk why was he going to annihilate the whole hypertimeline if people he was friends with like Goku didn't uh, prove they were nice people? Why not just delete life and start over, why destroy the whole cosmology because 17, the dude with a family, who's adopted orphans, and spends his free time protecting nature, maybe would have wished for a boat?

• Zeno being depicted as a child doesn't really hold up when the anime makes a point of him having deeper underlying plans for Goku and co. in the Tournament of Power and giving mortals a chance to make a virtuous wish with Super Shenron.

Yes, a chance, and if they didn't prove that, the Grand Priest explicitly, flat out, not up for debate says he would have wiped out the entire hypertimeline, friends, allies, people who did nothing wrong, the spae-time itself, all gone.
The lil baby toddler gave them a chance to prove themselves.
IZ on the other hand, was very much proof that yeah that shit gotta go.

Future Zeno coming to long talks and becoming friendly with Goku and then them deciding yo maybe we should give them a chance? If they're uh, infinitely not as bad as that mf Zamasu, we let them live, but if they don't do this EXACT thing we kill everyone and everything?

Like you see the issue yeah?
The very reason we're told he was going to nuke the main timeline, is something that IZ embodied in spades.
Saying he didn't need to nuke the whole future don't work when he was going to do that to the past for an even LESS integrated problem in that "wow people can be a lil selfish wtf".

• The point on Zeno is simply conjecture. So it can't be considered a concrete argument.

It isn't conjecture.
Whis straight up says on screen this is the case. Unlike the entire arguments proposed by the opps here, his is stated clear as day, you don't get to argue this stance, it's the single most clear thing in this entire thread.

The fact you think THIS is vague but not the numerous assumptions you need to take to arrive at your conclusion is baffling.

This isn't up for debate, Whis flatout says if he's unknown he can and will destroy all of existence which is why Beerus and others go to great lengths not to annoy him.

Zamasu merging with the timeline

• Zeno opted to erase the world rather than simply the universe, and even commented on how the world deserved to be erased after seeing Infinite Zamasu

Yes. He also said the world deserved to be erased if people didn't show altruism and kindness in the ToP.
He also said that after looking around the area and seeing nothing but scorched ruins and death.
You're ignoring a slew of context.

• Zamasu, by becoming Infinite Zamasu, suddenly gained the power to access timelines like the Present Timeline.

Yep, means nothing on its own though, is it hax, power, is it simply because of his new state of being? We don't know, you need to prove it for a fact.

• Something which Chariot actually brought up via his Time Warp argument. Issue is the connection between the Future Timeline and Present Timeline are between two higher temporal dimensions, not U7 to U7. And Zamasu is not a Time Ring or a Time Machine with a built-in ability to hop worlds. When did Zamasu gain the ability to go to another timeline?

When he became this abstract entity that's capable of fusing with the world I would presume.
Why is this even a question?

When did Zamasu gain the ability to fuse with hypertimelines too? When did he gain the ability to become abstract? He just kind of did out of nowhere.

Why are you assuming the character who is in an extreme unprecedented state who is quite literally, onscreen, pulling new abilities out his ass in real time just because, can't have gained the ability to do this too? It's a far more reasonable assumption than assuming it's power based, ESPECIALLY because they directly mention how it's like when Goku Black did it with a Time Ring, and we know he exploited a pre-existing time warp, and we KNOW you don't need to be Low 1-C to exploit a time warp.

This isn't an argument.

• If it was via the connection between timelines then logically it was when he merged with the Future Timeline, which was already connected to the Present Timeline if you go with the 'Time Machine created a time warp between the timelines' theory.

You don't need to be Low 1-C to exploit a time warp, they explain this, actually hell pretty sure Whis is the person who explains this all iirc.
The Time Machine isn't Low 1-C, the Time Ring isn't Low 1-C.
They simply have range.
The Time Ring itself simply makes use of the pre-established time warp left by the time machine o do so too.
This, is notable, because IZ's methodology is directly compared to the Time Warp method (looks like it too tbh), and the fact he just so happens to breach in the exact spot where we know a time warp exists because they say as much, and it's also where the time rings and time machine were used off and on all throughout, and NOWHERE else, pretty much confirms it. They wouldn't write in lines saying it's like the way that happened 17ep ago and have it be in the same place time warps exist if it wasn't.

So at that point you have to acknowledge that hey, it's probably a hax thing, not AP.

But you seem to want to argue that him doing it at all means he completed the merger fully (never said btw), yet this also cycles back around to if he was fully fused by that point, that means, no matter what, his AP didn't change.
Because we see his AP in that state, and it's arguably even weaker than it was before, which makes sense given his state of mind has worsened, and he lost Goku Black so his ki would have reverted back to base Zamasu's.
Thus, like it or not, what's actually shown and the only method of AP and energy output he has takes far more precedence over a bunch of assumptions that need to fall into place perfectly just to arrive at your conclusion based not even on anything established in the material itself, but just outside meta reasoning like "idk I feel like fusing with this would make him stronger ig?".

This also calls into question that, why did he, according to you in this situation, somehow fuse with the whole hypertimeline of the future in about legit 30 seconds or less, but then spend like 3 minutes laughing while having a portal opened to the past yet not start fusing with it? Kind of implies he didn't quite finish with the future no?

I, personally, do not see why a Possibly Low 1-C rating for characters scaling above Zamasu would not be an acceptable conclusion. As there does not appear to be any concrete evidence against Zamasu merging with the timeline prior to his erasure whereas I have legitimate reason to think he did.

Other way around. Burden of proof is on you.
Like I can not stress this enough, honestly speaking, nobody has to argue a thing, nobody has to even give you reasons or alternatives that are equally if not more valid, the fact people have is enough as it is, fact is it's on you to prove your claim without a doubt to be true.
That's how CRT's work, it's not on others to prove the claims wrong, it's on the OP to prove them right, and when we've reached the point where even you are like "well it can't be proven so how about a possibly?", and even OP is throwing out things like ki mind stuff that guts the whole premise as a whole to where not even that is possible, we've reached a stage where there's no such thing as a possibly, you give undeniable explicit proof or it can't happen. This again ignores how tier 1 requires explicit evidence but let's be super generous and just treat this like a normal tier change.

 

[Chariot190]

So let me get this straight, you're saying zamasu didn't fully fuse with trunks timeline before he entered Goku's right?

I'm saying it's open to interpretation, and whether he did or not doesn't matter because if he did.
1. We're shown his ki is unchanged and thus his AP is unchanged so him fusing didn't effect his attack output.So if he fused before going there, he isn't Low 1-C in AP, actual evidence takes precedence.
2. Or he didn't, and then the whole argument is bunk because he didn't complete the merger. So his AP don't scale.
3. Or maybe he did and his ki was just compromised which would still mean his AP don't scale.
4. Or maybe he didn't and Zeno killed him first.
5. Or maybe a bunch of things, burden of proof isn't on me here it's on people claiming the suggestions as fact. The fact there's a bunch of interpretations (and even moreso leading up to this and afterward that also effects the conclusion), makes even arguing this a bit of a stretch to begin with.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Sure why not? If that's what's shown, and he lacks a major facet of ki, it is what it is.

In other words it's pure conjecture on your part.

That he's gone batshit crazy especially because even as he has them dead to rights he stops attacking completely and just spends and oddly insane amount of time just screaming and laughing and never once follows up to kill them after the initial burst, implicating that yo hey maybe he's no longer sane?
He doesn't even really do anything when Zeno is legit brought in and Goku rats Zamasu out, he just stays there laughing and screaming, like at that point you WOULD think Zamasu would go "oh shit I gotta get out of here!" and then immediately fuse with the past so he uh, isn't killed if Zeno goes nuclear?

Flee where? You say the Present Timeline but he was already trying to go there and was erased. What's your point?

Alo technically not true, this isn't Goku Black, Goku Black actually died.

Zamasu has the exact same tendencies of playing with his food.

It works well because that's what we actually see, are flatout shown, and character lines suggest as much like Goku obviously not sensing his power increase by infinite times as to even contemplate boxing him if he had a senzu, zamasu's actual on screen feats, and of course, an actual established facet in how ki actually works, with correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't most of the arguments "well that's how ki works!", why we suddenly ignoring how ki works?

A character desperately wishing he was in a better condition to try doing something is not remotely equivalent to a debunk. That is, once again, conjecture. Zamasu's actual on screen feats? Being able to suddenly access another timeline when he had no inherent ability to do so prior.

And you keep harping on about 'how Ki works' but there is zero evidence that IZ grew infinitely weaker or whatever in AP because he was laughing a lot.

Yep, willing to go nuclear over mundane things, manga even says it was over hide and seek.

Because Beerus fell asleep for 50 years and an event Zeno was enjoying got cancelled. Not equivalent to Zeno showing up and erasing the entire world within seconds.

Whis actually says you gotta be careful with him so he doesn't do that. I would wgaer money on the fact that Zeno being brought in forcefully by people he doesn't know, seeing this disgusting freak trying to merge with reality, as he scans around and sees nothing but death and destruction (Don't forget that btw, he actively looks around first before deciding and sees no life and ruin), I would say that this is well beyond the scope for him to go nuclear, especially given the plot of the ToP.

The threat with Zeno is that no one wants to screw with him because no one knows what will set him off. That's the entire 'joke' of Goku interacting with him so casually.

Idk why was he going to annihilate the whole hypertimeline if people he was friends with like Goku didn't uh, prove they were nice people? Why not just delete life and start over, why destroy the whole cosmology because 17, the dude with a family, who's adopted orphans, and spends his free time protecting nature, maybe would have wished for a boat?

Ah yes. And why would Zeno erase the entire world if he didn't do so in the past when he got pissed off? It's a mystery.

Yes, a chance, and if they didn't prove that, the Grand Priest explicitly, flat out, not up for debate says he would have wiped out the entire hypertimeline, friends, allies, people who did nothing wrong, the spae-time itself, all gone.

And Zeno had no immediate plans to do this. Goku was the one who brought it up and Zeno decided to give people a chance. Future Zeno, from what we do know, had no clear desire to erase the world. That was an idea Zeno gained because of the Tournament of Power.

The lil baby toddler gave them a chance to prove themselves.

Wow. Lil Baby Toddlers give ultimatums and can conjure up cosmic plans to test the morality and ethics of people? He's a God. Who has lived for countless millions of years. Who has demonstrated deeper levels of cognition than any ordinary child.

IZ on the other hand, was very much proof that yeah that shit gotta go.

Oh? Why's that? Zeno didn't erase anything when Black was running rampant. Why would Infinite Zamasu elevate things?

It isn't conjecture.
Whis straight up says on screen this is the case. Unlike the entire arguments proposed by the opps here, his is stated clear as day, you don't get to argue this stance, it's the single most clear thing in this entire thread.

Crazy. How did Infinite Zamasu access the Present Timeline?

Yes. He also said the world deserved to be erased if people didn't show altruism and kindness in the ToP.

Like Trunks? Or Goku and co.? Who were right there fighting for survival and to protect everyone?

Yep, means nothing on its own though, is it hax, power, is it simply because of his new state of being? We don't know, you need to prove it for a fact.

Actually, no. Provide a justification for why Zamasu has that ability. I'm waiting. If you cannot why would anyone think my point is wrong?

When did Zamasu gain the ability to fuse with hypertimelines too? When did he gain the ability to become abstract? He just kind of did out of nowhere.

Because his immortal body was obliterated. His immortal soul infected the universe. As stated by Gowasu. Him going to another timeline is not, on the other hand, clearly explained.

You don't need to be Low 1-C to exploit a time warp, they explain this, actually hell pretty sure Whis is the person who explains this all iirc.
The Time Machine isn't Low 1-C, the Time Ring isn't Low 1-C.

The Time Machine is designed to go between timelines. The Time Ring is a literal representation of timelines created when they form and destroyed when they are erased. Shared Worldview. This is shown and stated. Where did Zamasu gain the ability to access the time warp?

So at that point you have to acknowledge that hey, it's probably a hax thing, not AP.

Via what power system?

Because we see his AP in that state, and it's arguably even weaker than it was before, which makes sense given his state of mind has worsened, and he lost Goku Black so his ki would have reverted back to base Zamasu's.
Thus, like it or not, what's actually shown and the only method of AP and energy output he has takes far more precedence over a bunch of assumptions that need to fall into place perfectly just to arrive at your conclusion based not even on anything established in the material itself, but just outside meta reasoning like "idk I feel like fusing with this would make him stronger ig?".

Beyond the fact that the entire cosmology has Ki as demonstrated by the Spirit Bomb and Moro and the fact you can absorb celestial bodies to have their Ki? Oh wait, you just assume Zamasu can't do that. Even though he merged with the cosmology itself.

This also calls into question that, why did he, according to you in this situation, somehow fuse with the whole hypertimeline of the future in about legit 30 seconds or less, but then spend like 3 minutes laughing while having a portal opened to the past yet not start fusing with it? Kind of implies he didn't quite finish with the future no?

How long should it take him to do it?

Other way around. Burden of proof is on you.
Like I can not stress this enough, honestly speaking, nobody has to argue a thing, nobody has to even give you reasons or alternatives that are equally if not more valid, the fact people have is enough as it is, fact is it's on you to prove your claim without a doubt to be true.
That's how CRT's work, it's not on others to prove the claims wrong, it's on the OP to prove them right, and when we've reached the point where even you are like "well it can't be proven so how about a possibly?", and even OP is throwing out things like ki mind stuff that guts the whole premise as a whole to where not even that is possible, we've reached a stage where there's no such thing as a possibly, you give undeniable explicit proof or it can't happen. This again ignores how tier 1 requires explicit evidence but let's be super generous and just treat this like a normal tier change.

You can keep on saying this all you please. You came into this CRT to debate this revision. You can't provide concrete evidence for any of your arguments. You can't provide reasonable alternatives to anything. You have continually made wild leaps of judgement continually. Anyone can enter a CRT and say anything they please then go 'Burden of proof!' It doesn't accomplish anything.

If you cannot provide an alternative explanation then what is even the point of your arguments? Keep in mind I'm arguing for Possibly Low 1-C. Not outright Low 1-C. If you want to debunk that then you have to provide something beyond conjecture and lazily going 'It's hax! Burden of proof! Infinite Zamasu became infinitely weaker!' like that means anything.

 

[Jaynic1]

Celestial bodies is one thing, is there any indication time and space also has ki?

 

[StekFence]

conjure up cosmic plans to test the morality and ethics of people?

I mean, hardly. It was essentially just a test for one person which decides the fate of all people.

If you want to debunk that then you have to provide something beyond conjecture and lazily going 'It's hax! Burden of proof!

I feel like burden of proof is a bit more important then you are letting on. He’s not even saying it’s 100% hax. Your position is a possibility, but isn’t more likely than any other under the evidence provided. So if you are arguing that position, you do kinda have the burden of providing better proof

 

[Chariot190]

In other words it's pure conjecture on your part.

No, it's the only thing with actual proof. Look I know I said the word conjecture a lot here but that doesn't mean you can just use it as a buzzword when it doesn't apply, this is one of the few pieces of solid proof we do have.

If it's shown, and yes, it is shown, that's not conjecture, it's the only thing here that isn't.

Flee where? You say the Present Timeline but he was already trying to go there and was erased. What's your point?

Are we losing the plot? He had already, in your own words, breached it, like 3 minutes prior to when that happened. Why'd he just sit on his ass doing nothing if, according to you, he had already completed the merge? I shouldn't have to explain this, again.

Zamasu has the exact same tendencies of playing with his food.

This isn't playing with his food, this is doing nothing and screeching and acting insane. He never did that, before this, I'm not humoring this grasping.

And Black is merged into Zamasu.

No Black is dead dude, this is simply the immortal facet of him.

A character desperately wishing he was in a better condition to try doing something is not remotely equivalent to a debunk.

He says he might be able to. If Goku can, in your own words, sense Zamasu's power (which is what enables future scaling too ig), there would be no "might", he would know it's hopeless even if he did.
And I never said it was a debunk, but thinking on it, it kind of is? That's far more concrete then the assumptions going on elsewhere.

That is, once again, conjecture.

How ki works isn't conjecture, in fact it's even written and sourced with citations on or ki page, like how most of your claims should be, yet aren't.
Unless you mean Goku wanting to box him? Hate to break it to you but Goku saying he might be able to do something if he was at full power, isn't conjecture, it's what he says explicitly.
Or do you mean Zamasu attacking and it not doing anything or being shown different? That isn't conjecture either my dude, it's the only attacking feat he even has, it takes precedence over everything you have and can say here.

Zamasu's actual on screen feats? Being able to suddenly access another timeline when he had no inherent ability to do so prior.

Yep, ability, but is that due to AP?
Nope, you have to prove it, and when everything suggests otherwise and his actual on screen feats show a stagnation if not drop in power, it is very much on you to prove your claim here and it's getting very tiresome that you've been told as much to do so not only by me, but by multiple mods.

And you keep harping on about 'how Ki works' but there is zero evidence that IZ grew infinitely weaker or whatever in AP because he was laughing a lot.

Yes there is, unless Ki suddenly started working differently here for some reason, in which case throw this entire premise out because the only thing you have to argue here is that his ki grew with the merger, but if ki suddenly working on new rules, well that's out the window, we have no idea how ki works now here.

And what do you mean zero evidence? In fact on our very wiki
"Shōki (正しょう気き"Right-mindedness") is implied to be one's mental state, meaning that by maintaining self-control, balance and staying true to yourself, it is possible to increase your capability in battle."

We already accept one of the pillars of ki to being in one's right mind and Zamasu very much wasn't.
We know if one of these pillars becomes imbalanced, it can cause a massive drop in ki, energy and even output. I could go grab the daizenshuu scan explaining it too but I think someone already posted an excerpt from it earlier?

This is an established fact stated flat out in numerous guides.
And "grew infinitely weaker", not how this works, I'm saying he didn't grow at all, not that he grew weaker. Just that this would, in fact, compromise your claim even if he did grow stronger, but fact of the matter is you haven't even proven he got stronger at all to begin with.

You're putting your cart before your horse, using your preconceived conclusion as evidence, I don't want your claims, I don't even want your opinion here, I want what the material itself says, and you have failed to give it every time you've been asked.

Because Beerus fell asleep for 50 years and an event Zeno was enjoying got cancelled. Not equivalent to Zeno showing up and erasing the entire world within seconds.

Yeah he fell asleep, he went nuclear WAY before he woke up tho i thought it was 58 years tbh.
Yeah an event he was enjoying got cancelled, so he wiped out 6 universes because he was annoyed...
Not even Beerus' world, dude's got hit with the "why you saying **** me for" meme, people got COLLATERALLED over the game.

Even IF ong, Zeno waited till Beerus woke up and waited that whole timeframe instead of "shit we cant find him grrr", that would still be magnitudes less than what IZ was doing. I can't even believe this is a conversation we have to be having, are you actually trying to justify that Zeno wiping out multiple realities over a game is even comparable to him wiping out reality because an eldritch freak who turned the world into a wasteland and he finds revolting and proves his later notion of living beings being selfish true so shit gotta go to somehow be less reason?

The threat with Zeno is that no one wants to screw with him because no one knows what will set him off. That's the entire 'joke' of Goku interacting with him so casually.

Exactly, nobody knows, because even a slight annoyance can set him off so nobody wants to risk it. Whis flatout says this, this isn't up for debate here, stop trying to argue the only concrete non-debatable notion in this entire thread.

Ah yes. And why would Zeno erase the entire world if he didn't do so in the past when he got pissed off? It's a mystery.

He... He literally destroyed almost half of reality over something Whis called him just getting annoyed?
What?
Entire universes gone, over 1/3rd of the hypertimeline gone, over something Whis, straight up, says was him just getting annoyed. It isn't a mystery, we are explicitly told what it was over, and it's because of this everyone does everything not to set him off so that doesn't happen.
Like yeah it hasn't happened, it's also why Beerus would lick the dirt off his shoes and let him ride him like a donkey (this legit happens) just to keep him appeased.

Everyone is constantly babying him so yeah, obviously, it didn't happen. But what would happen if they didn't baby him, keep him happy, or proved his suspicions correct? Yeah he would have because that's what we're told would happen.

And Zeno had no immediate plans to do this. Goku was the one who brought it up and Zeno decided to give people a chance. Future Zeno, from what we do know, had no clear desire to erase the world. That was an idea Zeno gained because of the Tournament of Power.

Oxymoron. You can't say he had no plans to do it, and then say he was giving them a chance. A chance for what? If he never planned to do it why was he giving anyone a chance to begin with?

Also it again doesn't matter, it blatantly tells us, like this part is flatout stated, that he was contemplating it, and if anything but was made.
"If a selfish wish was made, he would have erased everything" - GP.
Like, really? Someone having fought for their lives, because of him no less, making a wish that might not be virtuous, would have had him go nuclear and wipe out the entire hypertimeline no questions asked.

And you're arguing that IZ wouldn't have been enough?

Wow. Lil Baby Toddlers give ultimatums and can conjure up cosmic plans to test the morality and ethics of people? He's a God. Who has lived for countless millions of years. Who has demonstrated deeper levels of cognition than any ordinary child.

Yes lil baby toddler is a lil baby toddler who's stated he might wipe out reality if annoyed so don't risk it, who will also wipe out reality if people didn't prove to be virtuous, and that he wiped out reality when faced with an eldritch entity fusing with the world and is so far up his own ass he became an abstract idea of his own ideals who was stated to give off a wicked aura alone and as Zeno looks around seeing that this monster killed everything and ruined the world, as Goku himself rats Zamasu out for, Zeno decides to take the nuclear option.

This... Is so far beyond just a selfish wish or being annoyed that we shouldn't even be discussing this.

Oh? Why's that? Zeno didn't erase anything when Black was running rampant. Why would Infinite Zamasu elevate things?

Did he even know?
Like legitimately, Zeno didn't know what was going on, Goku had to actually explain it to him, Zeno even ASKS Goku if he was the person who caused all that death and destruction, and Goku has to point out Zeno to him, and say "no, that bad person did all this".

Zeno, explicitly, had not a clue what was going on, didn't even seem to know wtf a Zamasu was either. The better question would be why GP didn't do anything, or the angels, but thinking on it, isn't that literally why Merus lost his powers? Probably why. They just watch, if shit happens, it happens. ansd Zeno evidently was never informed because well he straight up didn't know what was going on because he himself asks.

So yeah, that's PROBABLY why.
And thinking on it. isn't that also proof? If IZ merged with the whole hypertimeline, why IS Zeno even asking, would he have not seen him in his palace given that's also part of the hyper timeline? Kind of implies IZ didn't merge that far yet.

Crazy. How did Infinite Zamasu access the Present Timeline?

That's a very good question (via time warp), I'm waiting on you to prove that.

Like Trunks? Or Goku and co.? Who were right there fighting for survival and to protect everyone?

He didn't know that though? He even asks if Goku is the person who destroyed everything and Goku has to go nuh uh it was him. Zeno never once saw them do anything to prove themselves virtuous.
Also, why's that matter?

The entire ToP was people fighting to save the lives of people they care about for the most part, that did not stop Zeno from nuking them, nor was it going to stop him if anyone made a selfish wish, even though we would have known by that point there's heroes, people who fight for others, and more, like the megucas, some of the pride troopers, Gohan, and hell even Vegeta given he was going to wish back U6.

Actually, no. Provide a justification for why Zamasu has that ability. I'm waiting. If you cannot why would anyone think my point is wrong?

Burden of proof is on you.
He has that ability because he's this weird abstract embodiment that just pulled a shit ton of abilities out of nowhere as it is.
I don't care why he has it, did he simply exploit an existing time warp (yeah probably that's basically what they say), did he gain that ability with the rest of the dozen other abilities he just got because because? Or hell maybe you're right but if you're right you're also wrong because we know his ki didn't change by that point so his AP wouldn't have grown to begin with and thus is just a range feat.

It doesn't matter you need to prove this, that's how CRT's work, I don't need to disprove your conjecture, extrapolation, or assumptions, it's on you to prove what you're saying isn't conjecture, extrapolation, or assumptions, yet you've on record in this thread multiple times admitted that it is for that most part, so why are we even arguing still? The very fact you want a possibly is because you admit you can't prove some things.

Why would anyone think your point is wrong? The point in and of itself isn't even confirmed, that's probably why.

Because his immortal body was obliterated. His immortal soul infected the universe. As stated by Gowasu. Him going to another timeline is not, on the other hand, clearly explained.

So? Why would his immortal soul be able to fuse with hypertime? That isn't explained. All they say is that's what he is now, it doesn't say why it enables him to do what he does. why can a soul do that? OTHER souls can't do that in DB? Why is his special? Is it because it's immortal? Well so are most souls so why his? In fact why can he become abstract from it? That makes no sense and isn't explained, like if you killed Freeza his soul wouldn't pop out and begin fusing with stuff? Even his soul in heaven wouldn't? It can't do that, it isn't possible, is it because Zamasu became abstract? Ok but why did his soul become abstract other souls can't do that, that isn't explained either?
That isn't actually explained, they just say it happened, but why? It isn't like he has that ability inherently, so why here, why now? In fact Goku Black's soul didn't and that's just a diff Zamasu.
He does all this extremely situational specific things, and yet the sole thing we're given a parallel for, you're trying to argue it's power based? Or proof he merged with the whole hyertimeline? The Time Machine didn't fuse with the whole timeline either yet it can exploit that stuff too, it's hard confirmed not a prerequisite to occur or to do it, so again, burden is on you.
Yet he does it anyway, and "clearly explained", my brother in christ, I pray I don't need to point out the irony in that sentence there right?

A character actually says something, which yep, so that's cool.
But everything that matters for your point, isn't explained or said or anything of the sort, yet you're acting as if it has even more merit?

The Time Machine is designed to go between timelines. The Time Ring is a literal representation of timelines created when they form and destroyed when they are erased. Shared Worldview. This is shown and stated. Where did Zamasu gain the ability to access the time warp?

Via his funny abstract stuff like the rest of his newfound abilities evidently.
And you're blatantly ignoring the point. Is the time machine low 1-C? Is the ring low 1-C? Are TIME WARPS low 1-C?
Nope for all that.
Do they need to be fused with the whole hypertimeline to access them? Nope.
Is IZ's example directly compared to Goku Black's usage and exploitation of a time warp with IZ being shown through a time warp? Yep.
Is that a pre-existing time warp even? Yep.

So already that's an issue, IZ didn't even make the time wrap himself, it's already, which is to say, he isn't even BREACHING the past by his own capability, he's basically just finding a pre-existing "wound" or "door" and going through that.

We know you don't need to be fused with a whole hypertimeline, have low 1-C AP, or to even be 4D and simply 3D to access them, so with all that in mind, why are you making a bunch of extra assumptions as to how he "must" be this or that to do it?

Fact is we don't know how he did it exactly, but we also know you don't need to be any of the things you said to do it, so it's on you, again, given you're suggesting the change, for it to be because of your reason, not anything else.

Via what power system?

The whatever power system let him do this shit to begin with? Why are you even asking questions you know the answer to.
Also why it gotta be a power system? Half of his abilities and the very nature of this feat stems not from his or the UES, but specific features unique to him.

Beyond the fact that the entire cosmology has Ki as demonstrated by the Spirit Bomb and Moro and the fact you can absorb celestial bodies to have their Ki?
Oh wait, you just assume Zamasu can't do that. Even though he merged with the cosmology itself.

Yes actually, two very specific fringe cases who are designed to do that, doing that, is not Zamasu. In fact aren't you in this very post arguing that because IZ isn't designed to travel to the past that it don't count, so why are you assuming he has the ability of a spirit bomb or Moro built in?

Also no stop that right now, the entire cosmology doesn't have ki. Least of all the hypertimeline. Living things? Yep. Planets and stars? Yep. Annnnnd that's it actually. Anything past that is never stated, in fact we can be pretty damn sure it doesn't, like why doesn't Goku or Moro draw ki from empty space why does it have to be living planets or stars? If everything has ki why don't space got ki?
We know it doesn't all have ki anyway, things like the Rosat or WoV are noted to be completely empty, so they evidently don't got ki.
Thinking on it, I'm sure I can find dozens of statements where a character says they can't sense any ki anywhere nearby or there's no signs of ki, or etc.

Why are you extrapolating? Prove the hypertimeline has ki first.

How long should it take him to do it?

Why are you asking me?
You're the person saying he managed to fuse with the entire future hypertimeline in less than 30 seconds.
So pray tell why with an extra 3 minutes and an opened portal to the past, he managed to make zero progress with fusing with it?

By your logic it should take the same, or less time.

You can keep on saying this all you please.

And I will continue to do so, every single time until the thread is closed, or you post sufficient evidence of your claims.

You came into this CRT to debate this revision.

Not why actually but yep here we are.

You can't provide concrete evidence for any of your arguments.

I posted direct scans saying Zeno is a lil baby who will wipe out all of reality when annoyed (yet we're arguing he isn't for some reason...).
I posted the full clip where the Beerus line, the ki attacks, and the "breach" happen to show how Zamasu's energy absolutely did not change and when you're arguing he grew infinites (never stated) and even the sequence in which they happen and the context in which they occur yet you say he got more powerful because of it (never stated, shown the opposite), that the breach must be via power or something (never stated, they compare it to a hax ability even and exploiting an existing phenomena, something I also showed), and more, why in the world do I need to prove a thing past that? It's on you now to prove without a sliver of doubt your claims are fact.

You can't provide reasonable alternatives to anything.

Hey you do you but lots of people seem to disagree, and alternatives?
I shouldn't even be able to give a BAD alternative let alone the multiple that the source material basically says is the case anyway.

It should be undeniable, solid, no room for argumentation, yet here we are.

You have continually made wild leaps of judgement continually.

"Hey bro that's just like when Goku black did the thing"
"hey it's probably like when Goku black did the thing"

"I have no idea whats going on but i sense zamasu here in the past"
"hey beerus just means he can sense zamasu in the past and beyond that has no idea by his own admission whats actually going on"

"zeno is a baby"
"hey bros the show says and shows like 20 times zeno is a baby"

"he never uses his size for anything"
"bros he never uses his size for anything..."

"i could probably box zamasu if i was at full power, also we just deflected and tanked multiple attacks from him"
"hey bros i dont think zamasu got any stronger from merging based on the fact Goku seems to think his ass still got a chance at peak power and also the fact the only time we see him doing something he very much isnt stronger, and might even be weaker"

"ki gets weaker, unstable, and unable to be properly controlled and outputted depending on mental state"
"bros zamasu is literally going insane..."
And there's your claims. He fully merged with the timeline, based on nothing stated or shown, most we get to see is future U7's mortal world, so it's not like they show it.
You claim it must be power or full merging that enabled him to breach the past, but it's basically certain he used a time warp so that wouldn't even BE his feat to begin with.
You try to shift the burden that I have to prove how he accessed a time warp, as if everything else in that scene isn't evidence enough that he's pulling powers out his ass, not like it'd matter, it's still an unknown variable you need to prove as fact, not guess or assert you equally unknown stance.
You keep trying to argue Zeno is actually this tempered stoic 2deep4u entity when we're shown and lat out told by multiple characters that he isn't, and would go nuclear over far less.
You even tried to mply Zeno somehow had knowledge of this, yet we know for a fact he didn't.

Anyone can enter a CRT and say anything they please then go 'Burden of proof!' It doesn't accomplish anything.

Yes they can, and should.
It accomplishes plenty, it either forces the OP to give sufficient evidence, or shows that it might not actually be as solid as claimed.

If you cannot provide an alternative explanation then what is even the point of your arguments?

To show how your arguments lack in solid foundation and are based on conjecture or assumptions or needing a bunch of variables to fit perfectly together to conclude your verdict, which you have admitted to so not sure why we're backpedaling here, and there's a slew of unknown variables/suggestions that implicate your claim isn't even the case, and in some cases flat out contradictions to the entire premise at hand like Zamasu's ONLY time using ki attacks, not being any stronger at all, which takes precedence over you trying to proclaim he got stronger for merging when they never say he got stronger, never showed he got stronger and the only reason we assume this is due to meta vsbw memes not anything in the actual material.

I have provided alternative explanations, you might not like them, I don't care if you like them, of course you wouldn't like them, you want this other thing, that is fine, you can have your opinion, but what matters is what other people think.

Keep in mind I'm arguing for Possibly Low 1-C. Not outright Low 1-C. If you want to debunk that then you have to provide something beyond conjecture and lazily going 'It's hax! Burden of proof! Infinite Zamasu became infinitely weaker!' like that means anything.

Debunk... Dude you haven't even proven it yet.
The entire reason why you're arguing for a possibly is because you can't actually prove it as fact.
There's nothing to debunk, you're uggetsing a compromise as if we have to take a middle ground, no we don't, you either prove it, or nothing happens.
It means everything because the burden of proof IS on you. Why even settle for Low 1-C at that point argue for 1-A or something, if we're just saying "well maybe it's that high", why stop at low 1-C?

Hax? Yes, they compare it to a hax ability, show it via a hax exploitation, and IZ most certainly wouldn't be lacking in that department either. It's just as likely, if not more so, than the alternative claim.
Burden of proof? Yes welcome to VSBW were you must give proof if you make a CRT or want something changed.
And that last bit again, became infinitely weaker? You haven't even proven he became infinitely stronger, if you did there wouldn't even be a debate here. I'm arguing he didn't really change, based on the fact his ki output didn't really change. That's not even guesswork, like my dude, that straight up happens and even has a backing statement. That bit alone is enough proof to shut this whole CRT down as it is, because at that point you need explicit statements like he got stronger, and we know he can't use the cosmology or size itself to attack, which you even conceded to.

I don't understand, have we lost the meaning of what making a CRT entails? I don't need to give proof to debunk your self-admitted conjecture, the fact there's other options is enough. The fact I have given some concrete proof is beyond enough. Like why are we acting like the victim here, this is just how the wiki works, prove it, don't say "I explained it", don't say "I think", either it is, or it isn't, you haven't even gotten past that point yet.

 

[StekFence]

or the angels, but thinking on it, isn't that literally why Merus lost his powers?

I believe angels become inactive when someone kills the supreme kai and by extension, GoDs.

If you cannot why would anyone think my point is wrong?

If neither side had sufficient proof, why would such a crt even pass?? It’s not like just because someone else hypothetically makes a baseless claim, a different hypothetically baseless claim is correct.

And you keep harping on about 'how Ki works' but there is zero evidence that IZ grew infinitely weaker or whatever in AP because he was laughing a lot.

Infinitely weaker? Dunno. But we do have feats of far weaker characters working together to block his strikes. And let’s see, a full power goku has a chance to do something to him. And this is pretty solid evidence the gap isn’t that large. You think goku would go, “damn, if only I had a senzu I might be able to box black freiza”? No. Because the gap is too large. Like, it’s pretty probable that within the context of super, IZ is not all that powerful considering this. And then if he acts like he lacks a critical facet of ki manip, then the conclusion becomes pretty straight forward.
For instance, if Goku got sliced in half and his ki output dropped immensely, it would be pretty fair to say it’s because he just got ******* sliced in half, and not, “Oh it’s a coincidence.” “IZ performs significantly worse and acts as if he lacks critical ki facets, but there’s no correlation”. Wouldn’t that sound weird?

 

[Chariot190]

I believe angels become inactive when someone kills the supreme kai and by extension, GoDs.

I'm aware, but that wouldn't apply to GP, and I don't recall him killing every kai, but hell maybe he did, GP still wouldve been there. But even if they were or weren't that rule still applies.
Point is, Zeno very clearly didn't know what Black was doing, or even who Zamasu was, nor was he watching it unfold, because he's legit clueless and even asks Goku if he's the person responsible for the destruction and death.