Naruto : speed of light removal

[Syncornize]

HI
first of all, I intend to remove Kirin being lightspeed. Its current justification is based on the multiple statements claiming it to be SOL in the Databook, which tends to make exaggerated statements, like this. This is a case of cherry-picking, just as it is repeatedly stated to be SOL, it is also said many times to be lightning. Raiton, which Kirin falls under, is accepted as lightning and moves at the same speed (there’s even a calc. on the page). The ninjutsu databook page calls it lightning, without mentioning light.

From the fight between Sasuke and Itachi (and from the jutsu profile linked), we know that the technique wasn't directly created by Sasuke but by his fire jutsu, which heated the air in the sky and generated a thundercloud. Zetsu explains that the technique doesn't require chakra to be created, but rather requires control over lightning and the atmosphere. He also directly gives us a specific timeframe. But aside from that, Zetsu applies this reasoning by referring to Kirin as natural lightning. In the manga which I recall being the primary source of information it is repeatedly referred to as lightning, or lightning descending from the clouds.
Kirin is based on a natural meteorological phenomenon; the Databook statements in this case are mere exaggerations.

Spoiler: POSSIBLE DOWNGRADE

Kirin is stated by Zetsu and Sasuke to be impossible to dodge or block, on par with Amaterasu. This should cause downscaling to PT1 (I’ll only mention these to avoid too much confusion). Considering this Sasuke’s speed, in the same time frame he can cover 20m. Other characters like Kiba, Temari, and others shinobi cover 20 m, 8 m and 34 m respectively. To prevent spam, I’ll clarify this right here. The comparison to Amaterasu is not about destructive range for several reasons:

1) Amaterasu is a technique known for its casting speed, not its area of effect.I tachi can't manipulate him
2)Sasuke is near to Itachi (Zetus too). My calc. gives an estimate idea of about 41 m. Sasuke emerges unharmed from the impact. The reference is therefore to speed, focusing the damage on the lightning strike itself, not the explosion. Anyone with durability similar to Itachi’s would have no issues with the technique unless hit directly.That is also explained on the databook page
3)Zetsu talks about a time-frame, he explicitly refers to speed.

For now, I can accept that some characters might be above this level. But a ninjutsu that Sasuke uses to defeat a ninja who’s already a top-tier since the first arc, when compared to Amaterasu, has to be something he considers at least extremely fast. The Part 1 ninjas shouldn’t stand a chance against this.The evaluations of PT1 are largely supported by calculations

This wasn’t mentioned in the previous threads, and the calculation is still present on the page, but the profiles have scaling chains that lead nowhere, and it’s not listed on Madara’s page.

Spoiler: Light fang

I think this should be removed, as it doesn’t meet the current standards.

• The beam behaves in a reasonably realistic way, such as reflecting off non-magical mirrors or refracting and diffusing through liquids and materials.
• The beam is stated to move at the speed of light by reliable sources.
• The beam is stated to be composed/consisting of photons or light itself, again by reliable sources.
• The beam originates from a real source of light, such as the Sun or the flash of a camera

1. None of this is actually shown.
2. The statement comes from the databook, which is secondary canon ,often contradictory or filled with exaggerations. like this
3. No statements regarding this. The term “light,” besides often being used figuratively, can also refer to something luminous or shining.
4. . The technique doesn’t originate from a natural light source, but from the user’s mouth.

Some standard's that are used to show a beam doesn't behave like real light include:

• The beam primarily deals damage by means other than heating materials that absorb it.
• The beam is tangible and can be physically interacted with by normal humans, as if it were a solid, liquid, or gas. It shouldn’t disperse when struck like a substance would, and it shouldn’t be redirected without a mechanism such as refraction.

1. The Light Fang cuts Naruto’s staff in half and was clearly intended to cause damage. The databook itself states that it can cut things.
2. Since it’s an attack technique, it’s reasonable to assume that it’s tangible and can damage regular shinobi or physical beings.
3. Justifications such as “it travels in a straight line” are not valid evidence in support, according to the standards page, which states:
   
   

   “Please note that the opposite of these criteria do not prove a beam is at lightspeed, merely that it could be.”

   There are two standards against it versus one that doesn’t seem valid to me.
   It should still be removed, as Madara moves it with his head.
   The characters are currently accepted as being ten times faster; for anyone at his level, this is a ridiculous attack. It wouldn’t be a problem for anyone, and it’s hard to believe that Naruto would just stand still and watch such a slow attack until the last moment

agree with all proposals : @Zefra3011, @Saqphire, @AyOgUyS

agree with Kirin and neutral on light fang : @Damage3245, @BeTheWay1rst, @Qawsedf234, @CryoTheMayo, @M3X_2.0

agree with light fang and neutral on Kirin

disagree : @Testarossa002, @DavidTPPM, @HelloThere1089, @Godernet, @AlternativePrinciple

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Look another one. It was already weird so much time without a Kirin/Light fang thread.

 

[Zefra3011]

Seems straightforward enough

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

Looking good, I agree about Kirin being lightning speed but neutral about Light Fang downgrade

 

[Testarossa002]

I understand the kirin point but why is light fang catching strays? Especially for the reasons highlighted by the OP?
that it moves or doesn't move in accordance to the light standards is irrelevant as those standards are for things that have no explicit statements of moving at the speed of light. If an attack has that statement, it doesn’t matter if it curves like an R2 or does a zigzag.
To point 2

The statement comes from the databook, which is secondary canon ,often contradictory or filled with exaggerations. like this

This is an Hasty Generalization
1. I'm fairly certain the anbu scan is a mistranslation and doesn't actually say that
2. Even if it wasn't, the statement was obviously not meant to be taken hyperliterally. It's in regards to how they are quick at performing tasks given to them and not a specific action sequence.
3. Disregarding the first 2, that this is wrong doesn't mean the entire thing should be disregarded. That's where nuance and case by case application comes in. Both of which you've skipped. The Manga (chapter 1 or so) also says naruto can move at Mach speed. I guess we should discard the manga too.

Anyway, i don't think LF should be used in calcs the way it's currently used but that's a discussion beyond the scope of this thread.

If it wasn't clear enough, i disagree with the light fang section
I'll tackle the kirin section if someone doesn't do a good job on that in the next twelve hours

 

[Syncornize]

This is an Hasty Generalization

It would be so only if I hadn’t enforced canonical standards in the first place. What was needed for the example was to make it clear that the databook tends to give exaggerated descriptions, and that therefore, in case of contradictions, the manga logically takes priority, it’s simple statistics. Every statement must be evaluated; your accusation doesn’t have the same foundation as your point. We’re saying two different things

2. Even if it wasn't, the statement was obviously not meant to be taken hyperliterally. It's in regards to how they are quick at performing tasks given to them and not a specific action sequence.

Exactly, just as you said databook descriptions are often embellished with figurative language.

3. Disregarding the first 2, that this is wrong doesn't mean the entire thing should be disregarded. That's where nuance and case by case application comes in. Both of which you've skipped. The Manga (chapter 1 or so) also says naruto can move at Mach speed. I guess we should discard the manga too.

They’re two different cases. Statements like these tend to be less frequent as figures of speech, unlike phrases or claims that involve light. The statement you mentioned has supporting evidence from negation ,obviously, a single scan doesn’t invalidate the entire chapter; I never said anything like that. As I said before, you took a small point that needs to be considered together with others to provide context and build a broader argument ,that too is a form of cherry-picking or strawman ,but that doesn’t really matter.. I’m not talking about the databook as a standalone argument or something that’s invalid by default

 

[DavidTPPM]

Omfg someone make a discussion rule against this already .

HI
first of all, I intend to remove Kirin being lightspeed. Its current justification is based on the multiple statements claiming it to be SOL in the Databook, which tends to make exaggerated statements, like this.

Exaggerations or "hyperboles" are often made with flowery wording and tend to be a one-off thing.
Not only do these statements not sound flowery but are repeated several times.

This is a case of cherry-picking, just as it is repeatedly stated to be SOL, it is also said many times to be lightning. Raiton, which Kirin falls under, is accepted as lightning and moves at the same speed (there’s even a calc. on the page). The ninjutsu databook page calls it lightning, without mentioning light.

It can be lightning and move at the speed of light, this is fiction. What's important is that it's said to be lightning and not as fast as lightning.
Raiton, assuming it's strong enough, is accepted to move AT LEAST as fast as real lightning. It's not a cap because the characters can very clearly make their Raiton stronger than regular lighting and it's painfully obvious that Kakuzus lightning style is slower than TBV Borutos lightning style.

As for the calc that really doesn't help your case because it's blatantly faster than even the wikis accepted upper limits of real lightning by almost 2x. It's only even listed there because the verse page is outdated and supporters are currently remaking it in private.

From the fight between Sasuke and Itachi (and from the jutsu profile linked), we know that the technique wasn't directly created by Sasuke but by his fire jutsu, which heated the air in the sky and generated a thundercloud. Zetsu explains that the technique doesn't require chakra to be created, but rather requires control over lightning and the atmosphere. He also directly gives us a specific timeframe. But aside from that, Zetsu applies this reasoning by referring to Kirin as natural lightning. In the manga which I recall being the primary source of information it is repeatedly referred to as lightning, or lightning descending from the clouds.

This has all been addressed by the thread that got this rating accepted. It's fine if you want to debunk it but you should address the arguments that have been previously made so we don't repeat the same conversation over and over again.

It becomes a little frustrating when people have to repeat the same arguments over and over again.

Kirin is based on a natural meteorological phenomenon; the Databook statements in this case are mere exaggerations.

Kirins power surpasses that of real lightning by a frankly absurd amount. 5 billion Joules vs 46 QUINTILLION Joules or around 9.2 billion times difference. And that's just looking at the calc differences. The way lightning works makes it so most of its power just goes through stuff without damaging it, meaning even a human can survive it. While the Kirin value is based on pure destruction.

The idea that it resembles natural lightning in stats is beyond absurd.

Spoiler: POSSIBLE DOWNGRADE

Kirin is stated by Zetsu and Sasuke to be impossible to dodge or block, on par with Amaterasu. This should cause downscaling to PT1 (I’ll only mention these to avoid too much confusion). Considering this Sasuke’s speed, in the same time frame he can cover 20m. Other characters like Kiba, Temari, and others shinobi cover 20 m, 8 m and 34 m respectively. To prevent spam, I’ll clarify this right here. The comparison to Amaterasu is not about destructive range for several reasons:

1) Amaterasu is a technique known for its casting speed, not its area of effect.I tachi can't manipulate him
2)Sasuke is near to Itachi (Zetus too). My calc. gives an estimate idea of about 41 m. Sasuke emerges unharmed from the impact. The reference is therefore to speed, focusing the damage on the lightning strike itself, not the explosion. Anyone with durability similar to Itachi’s would have no issues with the technique unless hit directly.That is also explained on the databook page
3)Zetsu talks about a time-frame, he explicitly refers to speed.

For now, I can accept that some characters might be above this level. But a ninjutsu that Sasuke uses to defeat a ninja who’s already a top-tier since the first arc, when compared to Amaterasu, has to be something he considers at least extremely fast. The Part 1 ninjas shouldn’t stand a chance against this.The evaluations of PT1 are largely supported by calculations

Literally all this proves is that Kirin CAN'T be only lightning level fast. All you've proven is that we have countless feats that'd make lightning speed Kirin very much avoidable not only for Itachi but even for low tier fodders like Temari, strengthening the SoL argument.

To this we can also add the fact that Kakashi is narratively proven to be a lightning timer as it's repeatedly said his signature move got it's name because he reacted to lightning. Given Kakashi is so utterly below Itachi that characters weaker than Itachi (Orochimaru) straight up make him suicidal with their sheer presence, it becomes even more clear that

This wasn’t mentioned in the previous threads, and the calculation is still present on the page, but the profiles have scaling chains that lead nowhere, and it’s not listed on Madara’s page.

Spoiler: Light fang

I think this should be removed, as it doesn’t meet the current standards.

1. None of this is actually shown.

Not necessary.
(also addressing both LF and Kirin is going to make the thread a lot more difficult to follow, I would recommend splitting the 2 downgrade attempts into individual CRTs)

1. The statement comes from the databook, which is secondary canon ,often contradictory or filled with exaggerations. like this

This is a non-argument. EVERY and ALL fictional media whether it's a databook, a manga, or a novel contain hyperboles.

My point here is, just because something contains hyperboles doesn't mean you can just blindly dismiss any statement you don't like. Otherwise literally no statement ever could be usable.

1. No statements regarding this. The term “light,” besides often being used figuratively, can also refer to something luminous or shining.

So, there is a statement calling it light then.

Yeah there is a different way to interpret it but there's no reason to do so. It looks like a beam of light, travels in a straight line, and is said to be moving at light speed. To interpret it as just something luminous would be completely baseless and illogical given its literally said to move at the SoL, called "light fang", and countless other jutsus are luminous and aren't described like as light in this fashion.

If it swims like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably a duck.

1. . The technique doesn’t originate from a natural light source, but from the user’s mouth.

Not necessary and debatable.

Some standard's that are used to show a beam doesn't behave like real light include:

1. The Light Fang cuts Naruto’s staff in half and was clearly intended to cause damage. The databook itself states that it can cut things.

Yes it cuts things but nothing implies it's through power rather than heat. The way it cuts Naruto very much does fit heat based damage.

1. Since it’s an attack technique, it’s reasonable to assume that it’s tangible and can damage regular shinobi or physical beings.

So, an assumption? It being able to damage regular shinobi can be achieved through heat, it doesn't have to be tangible...

1. Justifications such as “it travels in a straight line” are not valid evidence in support, according to the standards page, which states:

It's not a justification it's a requirement. A requirement which LF fulfills.

1. There are two standards against it versus one that doesn’t seem valid to me.

There are 0 standards against it and 2 in favor of

 

[Damage3245]

No opinion on the Light Fang proposal, but as far as Kirin goes I do agree that it should not be considered lightspeed.

 

[HelloThere1089]

The statement comes from the databook, which is secondary canon ,often contradictory or filled with exaggerations. like this

If it is accepted as secondary canon, and the LF having SoL isn't directly contradicted by the primary canon, then you can't just dismiss the secondary canon statements. That's the entire purpose of having it. You linking a completely different and irrelevant statement from the databook has no bearing on how LF should be treated. If you think databooks should be removed as secondary canon then you have to make a separate CRT first. I am not sure what your logic is here.

 

[Syncornize]

If you think databooks should be removed as secondary canon then you have to make a separate CRT first. I am not sure what your logic is here.

I never said that...

 

[HelloThere1089]

I never said that...

I never said that you did. That's the entire point of "if you think". And if you do consider the databooks as valid secondary canon, and there is nothing contradicting SoL LF in the primary canon, then your argument is even weaker than if you just said databooks should be removed.

 

[Saqphire]

I agree with both. Kirin being SOL was never established or implied in the original manga (in fact, the only args for it being SOL in manga is that "it doesnt look like lightning" and "Sasuke guides it", which are weak arguments imo.) and the debate on it only exists because of the databooks, which frankly I believe shouldn't be used, at least not in the case where they assert "speed of light". That's because there have been several statements of characters being lightspeed despite them by necessity having to be slower or faster (e.g. Haku being SOL, Sasuke being able to react, Sasuke getting blitzed by Lee who got blitzed by sound, or Kirin being lightspeed and Itachi reacting to it, and Itachi being able to fight KCM1 Naruto who is slower than Juubidara who used lightfang, another lightspeed technique)

This not only makes the databook's SOL statements irreconcilable, it also isn't a reliable source for this genre of statements (to be clear, I'm not saying ban them entirely, just that the SOL statements in them are unusable).

 

[Syncornize]

Kirins power surpasses that of real lightning by a frankly absurd amount. 5 billion Joules vs 46 QUINTILLION Joules or around 9.2 billion times difference. And that's just looking at the calc differences. The way lightning works makes it so most of its power just goes through stuff without damaging it, meaning even a human can survive it. While the Kirin value is based on pure destruction.

I'm not saying that it is a lightning bolt in every single property of reality (no standard is like that, not even light). I'm saying that it naturally has that speed, scaling accordingly. Characters in the verse increase the AP of techniques without increasing their speed accordingly. You've debunked many verses this way

, called "light fang", and countless other jutsus are luminous and aren't described like as light in this fashion.

If my dog's name is Rocky, I doubt it can perform a combination like a hook and an uppercut. Giving something a name doesn't describe it; it's just a simple name fallacy

 

[HelloThere1089]

Did bro just ignore the entire paragraph stating why it has numerous support for it to be treated as SoL? The point wasn't to use JUST the name as enough evidence. The point was that all the given information indicate strongly towards it being SoL.

 

[Syncornize]

Did bro just ignore the entire paragraph stating why it has numerous support for it to be treated as SoL? The point wasn't to use JUST the name as enough evidence. The point was that all the given information indicate strongly towards it being SoL.

Of course, I don't consider them valid, but fortunately I'm not obliged to respond to everything, only to what I consider necessary or want to address. I don't respond to things I feel I've already answered.

It doesn't change the fact that I pointed out that it’a LIGHT in the name, using it practically as support, which is wrong

 

[HelloThere1089]

You still didn't get it. There is a difference between using just the name as the only piece of evidence, and using the name as a corroborative evidence. Nominal fallacy applies to the former. Arguing that the name Fire Release: Great Fireball Jutsu can't be used as corroborative evidence to support that it has properties of fire seems needlessly pedantic. Again nobody is arguing LF is SoL just because of its name.

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

HI
first of all, I intend to remove Kirin being lightspeed. Its current justification is based on the multiple statements claiming it to be SOL in the Databook, which tends to make exaggerated statements, like this. This is a case of cherry-picking,

Like test said, the databooks are plaque with mistranslation

just as it is repeatedly stated to be SOL, it is also said many times to be lightning. Raiton, which Kirin falls under, is accepted as lightning and moves at the same speed (there’s even a calc. on the page). The ninjutsu databook page calls it lightning, without mentioning light.

Yes it is made from lightning and as such would be classified as a lightning ninjutsu, that doesn’t mean it would act like natural lightning as at the end of the day this is a supernatural series’s and not a scientific one.

More over the cal speed is more than 2X that of the one accepted by the wiki for natural lightning so it’s also not exactly helping your case of “its looks like lightning so it should be that speed)

From the fight between Sasuke and Itachi (and from the jutsu profile linked), we know that the technique wasn't directly created by Sasuke but by his fire jutsu, which heated the air in the sky and generated a thundercloud. Zetsu explains that the technique doesn't require chakra to be created, but rather requires control over lightning and the atmosphere. He also directly gives us a specific timeframe.

Did he specifically say that Kirin takes that much time to attack or was it a generalization of all lightning speed in the verse? Which is btw higher than normal natural lightning in real life.

The fact that it’s not created via chakra doesn’t have any bearing

But aside from that, Zetsu applies this reasoning by referring to Kirin as natural lightning. In the manga which I recall being the primary source of information it is repeatedly referred to as lightning, or lightning descending from the clouds.
Kirin is based on a natural meteorological phenomenon; the Databook statements in this case are mere exaggerations.

This is the same Zetsu who was looking at the fight from an outsider’s perspective and was portrayed to be an extension of the reader, so he would eco the thoughts of the readers as well. This is logical cuz we had no idea about Kirin until that very moment and with the information we could gather via visual evidence is that

“it’s made of lightning and hence should move at lightning speed”

And wouldn’t you know it zetsu also infers the same thought. I want to emphasize that Zetsu has never seen this jutsu and was only giving out general knowledge about stuff not the intricate details of the jutsu it self. Also this is the same dude that said lightning and can’t be dodge while we have kid kakashi being able to do so and many more so by your logic we should disregard all zetsu statements due to contradictions. He also said amatarasu is undodgable

Spoiler: POSSIBLE DOWNGRADE

Kirin is stated by Zetsu and Sasuke to be impossible to dodge or block, on par with Amaterasu. This should cause downscaling to PT1 (I’ll only mention these to avoid too much confusion). Considering this Sasuke’s speed, in the same time frame he can cover 20m. Other characters like Kiba, Temari, and others shinobi cover 20 m, 8 m and 34 m respectively. To prevent spam, I’ll clarify this right here. The comparison to Amaterasu is not about destructive range for several reasons:

1) Amaterasu is a technique known for its casting speed, not its area of effect.I tachi can't manipulate him
2)Sasuke is near to Itachi (Zetus too). My calc. gives an estimate idea of about 41 m. Sasuke emerges unharmed from the impact. The reference is therefore to speed, focusing the damage on the lightning strike itself, not the explosion. Anyone with durability similar to Itachi’s would have no issues with the technique unless hit directly.That is also explained on the databook page
3)Zetsu talks about a time-frame, he explicitly refers to speed.

For now, I can accept that some characters might be above this level. But a ninjutsu that Sasuke uses to defeat a ninja who’s already a top-tier since the first arc, when compared to Amaterasu, has to be something he considers at least extremely fast. The Part 1 ninjas shouldn’t stand a chance against this.The evaluations of PT1 are largely supported by calculations

All this just strengthens the claim of Kirin being faster than lightning speed

 

[Damage3245]

More over the cal speed is more than 2X that of the one accepted by the wiki for natural lightning so it’s also not exactly helping your case of “its looks like lightning so it should be that speed)

Just wanted to note that we use an average figure for lightning speed for the purpose of standardization but authors aren't necessarily using the same standards as us, not to mention that the calc is inherently fallible because it requires us to make assumptions. So there being some variance like the calced speed of the jutsu not lining up perfectly with a figure that we happen to use for lightning speed isn't a strong counter-evidence.

 

[Samlex1234]

HI
first of all, I intend to remove Kirin being lightspeed. Its current justification is based on the multiple statements claiming it to be SOL in the Databook, which tends to make exaggerated statements, like this. This is a case of cherry-picking, just as it is repeatedly stated to be SOL, it is also said many times to be lightning. Raiton, which Kirin falls under, is accepted as lightning and moves at the same speed (there’s even a calc. on the page). The ninjutsu databook page calls it lightning, without mentioning light.

From the fight between Sasuke and Itachi (and from the jutsu profile linked), we know that the technique wasn't directly created by Sasuke but by his fire jutsu, which heated the air in the sky and generated a thundercloud. Zetsu explains that the technique doesn't require chakra to be created, but rather requires control over lightning and the atmosphere. He also directly gives us a specific timeframe. But aside from that, Zetsu applies this reasoning by referring to Kirin as natural lightning. In the manga which I recall being the primary source of information it is repeatedly referred to as lightning, or lightning descending from the clouds.
Kirin is based on a natural meteorological phenomenon; the Databook statements in this case are mere exaggerations.

Spoiler: POSSIBLE DOWNGRADE

Kirin is stated by Zetsu and Sasuke to be impossible to dodge or block, on par with Amaterasu. This should cause downscaling to PT1 (I’ll only mention these to avoid too much confusion). Considering this Sasuke’s speed, in the same time frame he can cover 20m. Other characters like Kiba, Temari, and others shinobi cover 20 m, 8 m and 34 m respectively. To prevent spam, I’ll clarify this right here. The comparison to Amaterasu is not about destructive range for several reasons:

1) Amaterasu is a technique known for its casting speed, not its area of effect.I tachi can't manipulate him
2)Sasuke is near to Itachi (Zetus too). My calc. gives an estimate idea of about 41 m. Sasuke emerges unharmed from the impact. The reference is therefore to speed, focusing the damage on the lightning strike itself, not the explosion. Anyone with durability similar to Itachi’s would have no issues with the technique unless hit directly.That is also explained on the databook page
3)Zetsu talks about a time-frame, he explicitly refers to speed.

For now, I can accept that some characters might be above this level. But a ninjutsu that Sasuke uses to defeat a ninja who’s already a top-tier since the first arc, when compared to Amaterasu, has to be something he considers at least extremely fast. The Part 1 ninjas shouldn’t stand a chance against this.The evaluations of PT1 are largely supported by calculations

This wasn’t mentioned in the previous threads, and the calculation is still present on the page, but the profiles have scaling chains that lead nowhere, and it’s not listed on Madara’s page.

Spoiler: Light fang

I think this should be removed, as it doesn’t meet the current standards.

1. None of this is actually shown.
2. The statement comes from the databook, which is secondary canon ,often contradictory or filled with exaggerations. like this
3. No statements regarding this. The term “light,” besides often being used figuratively, can also refer to something luminous or shining.
4. . The technique doesn’t originate from a natural light source, but from the user’s mouth.

Some standard's that are used to show a beam doesn't behave like real light include:

1. The Light Fang cuts Naruto’s staff in half and was clearly intended to cause damage. The databook itself states that it can cut things.
2. Since it’s an attack technique, it’s reasonable to assume that it’s tangible and can damage regular shinobi or physical beings.
3. Justifications such as “it travels in a straight line” are not valid evidence in support, according to the standards page, which states:
   
   
   There are two standards against it versus one that doesn’t seem valid to me.
   It should still be removed, as Madara moves it with his head.
   The characters are currently accepted as being ten times faster; for anyone at his level, this is a ridiculous attack. It wouldn’t be a problem for anyone, and it’s hard to believe that Naruto would just stand still and watch such a slow attack until the last moment

agree with all proposals : @Zefra3011, @Saqphire

agree with Kirin and neutral on light fang : @Damage3245, @BeTheWay1rst

agree with light fang and neutral on Kirin

disagree : @Testarossa002, @DavidTPPM

We just tackled all this Kirin arguments not quite long and you brought absolutely nothing new to the table, so your argument is if a justu is called lightning it has to move at lightning speed even if it can be controlled by chakra? Did you even read through the thread that got Kirin accepted as lightspeed in the first place?… I vehemently disagree with both downgrades… enough is enough

 

[Syncornize]

More over the cal speed is more than 2X that of the one accepted by the wiki for natural lightning so it’s also not exactly helping your case of “its looks like lightning so it should be that speed)

In fact, I don't see any arguments against this, having mentioned it. For me, it can be used in this case. The speed of lightning is variable. What the wiki uses is a standard average. The calc. is within the “realm” of possibility.

 

[Syncornize]

We just tackled all this Kirin arguments not quite long and you brought absolutely nothing new to the table, so your argument is if a justu is called lightning it has to move at lightning speed even if it can be controlled by chakra? Did you even read through the thread that got Kirin accepted as lightspeed in the first place?… I vehemently disagree with both downgrades… enough is enough

You only mentioned one of my many points, so no, that's not all I said.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I'm not saying that it is a lightning bolt in every single property of reality (no standard is like that, not even light). I'm saying that it naturally has that speed, scaling accordingly.

And I'm saying it doesn't for countless reasons which you have ignored

Characters in the verse increase the AP of techniques without increasing their speed accordingly.

This doesn't matter. I'm not saying every AP increase must have a proportional speed increase, I'm saying it's very possible and common for speed of a technique to be increased same as with power.

If my dog's name is Rocky, I doubt it can perform a combination like a hook and an uppercut. Giving something a name doesn't describe it; it's just a simple name fallacy

It's not a nominal fallacy if you actually read the entire Bible worth of arguments I listed out instead of cherry picking one

 

[DavidTPPM]

You only mentioned one of my many points, so no, that's not all I said.

Not a nice feeling is it?

 

[Samlex1234]

You only mentioned one of my many points, so no, that's not all I said.

There is nothing new you mentioned man… Just go look at the past CRTs.. I’m not going to be wasting energy on repeated points over and over again.. and the only thing that “looks new” is the Anbu stuff which has also been debunked.

Light Speed in Naruto

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[HelloThere1089]

You only mentioned one of my many points, so no, that's not all I said.

but fortunately I'm not obliged to respond to everything, only to what I consider necessary or want to address.

Very cool

 

[Syncornize]

There is nothing new you mentioned man… Just go look at the past CRTs.. I’m not going to be wasting energy on repeated points over and over again.. and the only thing that looks new is the Anbu stuff which has also been debunked.

Light Speed in Naruto

vsbattles.fandom.com

The example is related to another concept. namely that hyperbole exists, especially in databooks. The correction does not change what I said

Considered by the OP to be an intelligent source with extensive deductive abilities, this is supporting evidence so far. It is part of something that is accepted as EG in understanding the chakra…, is that Zetsu's explanation is reported in the jutsu databook, so no, it is not a perception or deduction.
I mentioned the fact that it is reported by external sources (the same ones used as support)...

 

[Syncornize]

Very cool

Yes, it's a fair and democratic concept, unlike how you want to portray it. Apart from reversing simple concepts, if you left messages that are not useful to the thread alone, you would be doing the users a favor. If you disagree with something, don't nitpick, but argue your point.

 

[HelloThere1089]

How ironic. In any case, my disagreements are primarily with LF scaling. Frankly the OP remains unimpressive in their argumentation against it. I don't see that changing either to it's better to put me in disagree..

 

[Syncornize]

This doesn't matter. I'm not saying every AP increase must have a proportional speed increase,

It's not a nominal fallacy if you actually read the entire Bible worth of arguments I listed out instead of cherry picking one

I never said you claimed that.

Regardless of how many things you mention, saying X is called that, so the name is a support is fundamentally wrong.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I never said you claimed that.

That was literally your argument.

Regardless of how many things you mention, saying X is called that, so the name is a support is fundamentally wrong.

That's just objectively wrong. If an ability looks like a ball of fire and burns stuff then it being called "fireball jutsu" does absolutely support the idea that it's a fireball.
A nominal fallacy is the assumption that a name is automatically a description of that thing, but I'm assuming it. I'm saying concluding it based on the databook saying it's a beam of light traveling at the speed of light. I'm doing the logical opposite of a nominal fallacy here, instead of assuming a description from the name I'm connecting the name with the description.


Anyway can you actually please address the arguments in my original comment instead of cherrypicking the most unimportant parts of it? Because so far you haven't addressed anything in the CRT that passed the rating nor any of the actually important arguments raised against your thread

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

In fact, I don't see any arguments against this, having mentioned it. For me, it can be used in this case. The speed of lightning is variable. What the wiki uses is a standard average. The calc. is within the “realm” of possibility.

The “natural lightning” was initially natural but was than processed into a supernatural attack.

This is visually shown by a big ass Chinese dragon that even roars in the anime. Why do I bring this up? Because the shape of a jutsu has a big significance to its overall strength, speed and use case. This most commonly is seen in the rasengan where a higher rotation causes more destruction and a more compressed version has higher penetration power like rasengDan. There is no “natural” with Kirin, it’s controlled, shaped and used offensively by a supernatural energy made form metaphysical energies by a supernatural human.

 

[Syncornize]

That's.

In the message, it seems to be phrased differently (prob. MB) But regardless, it’s not proof, as it may refer to other characteristics, it remains as such.

I have already explained the reasons, and moreover, creating threads of this kind leads to spam (as you can see). I will leave things as they are. Rather than approving my proposal, I prefer to explain briefly and let others speak so that the moderators can reach quick conclusions. I am not “imposing” my idea; I readily accept that all of this may be wrong.

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Also i disagree with the thread

 

[Kaydee1648]

Atp Kirin revision threads might just rival the ETSO revision threads

At a glance, the OP didn’t bring up any new arguments that hasn’t been brought up (and rejected) before. No substantial new piece of evidence, just the same old rejected proposals.

Also why is the OP using light speed requirements for a technique that’s already stated to be light speed.
From the same page it literally says;

• The beam is stated to move at the speed of light by reliable sources.

The burden of proof is on OP to prove why the Databooks shouldn’t be a reliable source. Showing an instance of flowery language being used in a page doesn’t disregard the entire book without proper proof.

For clearance, I totally disagree with this thread for David’s reasons

 

[AyOgUyS]

Agree with all proposals lowkey

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I disagree with the thread FRA, might comment later if it still has traction

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I agree with Kirin but am neutral on Light Fang.

 

[Qawsedf234]

No opinion on the Light Fang proposal, but as far as Kirin goes I do agree that it should not be considered lightspeed.

Kirin being "only" lightning speed is fine with me. Light Fang I don't entirely agree with the OP.

• The Light Fang is created from Senjutsu or nature energy, meaning that the source can be debated as being infused with natural energy
• Lasers can indeed cut things so it cutting Naruto's staff isn't an anti-feat. An anti-feat is the laser imparting physical force like causing things to move
• We already accept weaker characters like KCM1 Naruto as being 14% lightspeed, and characters on So6P levels are accepted as having higher speed anways

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Yeaaaaaa add me to the disagree pile as well

first of all, I intend to remove Kirin being lightspeed. Its current justification is based on the multiple statements claiming it to be SOL in the Databook, which tends to make exaggerated statements, like this. This is a case of cherry-picking, just as it is repeatedly stated to be SOL, it is also said many times to be lightning. Raiton, which Kirin falls under, is accepted as lightning and moves at the same speed (there’s even a calc. on the page). The ninjutsu databook page calls it lightning, without mentioning light.

This is a classic case of Fallacy of Composition, it's the idea that one thing being invalid means everything else must be invalid without any exceptions which isn't true

This issue isn't exclusive to Naruto Databooks​

You can see these types of statements exist in the manga and it will exist in other Battle Shonen media as well as non Japanese media, that's honestly kinda how literature in general works, it's not a case where "hey this one thing is an isolated case of hyperboles and contain nothing but hyperboles" that's just not true, but when we do deal these things that's where human critical thinking comes in, we use discretion to separate literal from non literal instead of generalizing the whole thing to be invalid, surely you don't think the height statements from the databooks that we use for our calcs also need to go? if the answer is no that is cherrypicking

Now let's talk about the scan you sent, It's not hard to see how you just cherrypicked an old, blurry and poorly translated scan, that gets passed around online for the sake of wank

The Translation isn't even correct​

• 敵情也阻擋去路的敵忍消滅！
  → “Eliminate enemy ninja who block the path or threaten the mission!”
• 快如電光的殺人技，
  → “With killing techniques as swift as lightning,”
  (literally: “as fast as electric light” — a metaphor for extreme speed, not literal light speed)
• 正是暗部的真功夫。
  → “this is the true skill of the Anbu.”

A quick scan from chatgpt and DeepL reveals to us that the one beside the character's say 快如電光 (kuài rú diàn guāng) literally means “as fast as electric light” or “fast like lightning”, this is a common Chinese idiom meaning “extremely fast.”
To make matters worse the scan is in Chinese, you should try to find the Japanese versions of them to get the most accurate raws, otherwise it is to be dismissed.

The official translations (first fanbook pg50) reflect the raws to be much better by using the simile-esque speech patterns instead of saying the Anbu are legit light speed, it would be an issue if they were but if it says "hey these people are so fast just like light / lightninng" it simply becomes a tool to hype up the anbu because lightning speeds are considered insanely fast (to a non powerscaler) it becomes a commonly used phrase in their language resulting in it making an appearance here, that's it.

Discussion Rule​

• Take care to evaluate Naruto databook descriptions on a case-by-case basis when using them for scaling, as these sources vary from consistent with the manga to questionable hyperbole.

You are violating our discussion rules by lumping them all in together when it is explicitly stated not to lump em together and to treat them in a case by case basis. (See my point regarding discretion again) You can argue that you only wanna generalize a particular set of statements but that's circling back and doing the same thing in a disguised manner

it is also said many times to be lightning. Raiton, which Kirin falls under, is accepted as lightning and moves at the same speed (there’s even a calc. on the page). The ninjutsu databook page calls it lightning, without mentioning light.

A lightning styled attack that is light speed, not sure what you think is confusing here but composition is separate from statistics, we don't cap every shinobi to the speed of IRL Ninjas so we won't cap Kirin under the same basis, the argument only stands if Kirin is let's say a natural lightning instead of the supernatural kind and we have had this discussion many times in the last thread, those arguments got consistently rejected by staff you are free to check them out here

The CRT to end all CRTs: Naruto Revision (Kir-in)

Doodoo

vsbattles.com

Naturally the "erm this is literally just lightning" point is dismissed solely based on the fact that OP has not brought up new points in regards to this specific sub topic, we are not going to have this same discussion over and over again, especially for the same rehashed arguments from last time

It would be so only if I hadn’t enforced canonical standards in the first place. What was needed for the example was to make it clear that the databook tends to give exaggerated descriptions, and that therefore, in case of contradictions, the manga logically takes priority

The manga isn't contradicted simple, you think it is because you see lightning speed statements but you don't look deeper or care to acknowledge that "hey theyre not talking about kirin, theyre talking about what they think is gonna come out for a jutsu he has never seen simply based on deductions he made using in-the-moment observations and that he's making a general statement towards lightning", let's say in a battle shonen, a planet is to be formed someone can infer that'll be earth sized because typically planets would be in this size ballpark, that would not mean this planet can not go beyond this (as long as explicit statements exist), so this argument does not work unless A) it cannot be extraordinary (debunked) B) you have a direct statement in reference to said extraordinary object instead of the general thing of the same nature (which as we can clearly read does not happen here)

I think this should be removed, as it doesn’t meet the current standards.

None of these deadass matter

Light Fang does not rely on "hey its a light beam and acts like one" it's accepted as light speed because it stated to be at that speed, you don't need all that mental gymnastics when something is confirmed to be at a specific speed
If it was a tornado attack stated to be light speed it would be light speed outright, no buts or ifs

"but it's secondary canon" doesn't matter, it's accepted as usable as long as the source material isn't contradicted and the arguments regarding exaggeration were already thrashed so I won't bother repeat on that

You only mentioned one of my many points, so no, that's not all I said.

chuckled to this one

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

No opinion on the Light Fang proposal, but as far as Kirin goes I do agree that it should not be considered lightspeed.

Kirin being "only" lightning speed is fine with me. Light Fang I don't entirely agree with the OP.

Please counter the arguments against the OP before announcing agreement (They haven't addressed even 1/10th of it)

Either do that or go neutral, I don't want us to write essays for you to just gloss over them and hit em with a greenlight