• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Rashomon Gates difference between Sakon, Oro, and Hashirama.
Yeah more chakra makes them summon more gates not cause they can summon stronger gates.
Sakon and Ukon specifically note that it's Orochimaru's rashomon that they summoned so this isn't even true.
They could've been for all we know. That or summoners amping summons is something Kishimoto only thought of later
There's a gigantic difference between introducing a new concept and attempting to retcon an old one with inconsistencies.

Imagine if they say space-time ninjutsu isn't actually teleportation but it makes people move at lightspeed from point A to point B. It's blatantly incorrect.
 
I'm not going to vote on the thread because I think the premise is (respectfully) dumb (in the sense that 1 tail Naruto having a rasengan stronger than others' bijuudamas is ridiculous), but me thinking something is dumb isn't the same as me being a solid authority to disagree. That's just bias playing a part. So I will hold my vote, but in me holding my vote I will still respond to things I believe are incorrect.
 
Yeah more chakra makes them summon more gates not cause they can summon stronger gates.
It's both. A gate that falters from P1 Kiba's attack is not doing shit to 4T Naruto's Bijuudama, even if you stack a handful of them in a row. Letalone against MAS Madara's Susanoo Bladed Bijuudama. That's a difference of trillions of times (and no that's not a number I picked for emphasis, it's the literal AP difference), if Madara's attack was really just impeded by five P1 Kiba level+ defenses, it would've plown through as easily as if it were cutting through air and hit Hashirama.
Sakon and Ukon specifically note that it's Orochimaru's rashomon that they summoned so this isn't even true.
This is just referring to it being his jutsu
There's a gigantic difference between introducing a new concept and attempting to retcon an old one with inconsistencies.

Imagine if they say space-time ninjutsu isn't actually teleportation but it makes people move at lightspeed from point A to point B. It's blatantly incorrect.
This is quite far from your analogy, it's not changing the fundamental principle but adding a new component. Besides, a summon being fueled by the user's chakra is an old concept even if it wasn't previously explicitly a strength amp; that's why summons have time limits.
 
It's both. A gate that falters from P1 Kiba's attack is not doing shit to 4T Naruto's Bijuudama, even if you stack a handful of them in a row. Letalone against MAS Madara's Susanoo Bladed Bijuudama. That's a difference of trillions of times (and no that's not a number I picked for emphasis, it's the literal AP difference), if Madara's attack was really just impeded by five P1 Kiba level+ defenses, it would've plown through as easily as if it were cutting through air and hit Hashirama.
Orochimaru's gate didn't even do shit to the bijuudama so your point does not matter. The bijuudama turned them into dust. And the bijuudama had its trajectory changed after knocking them all on their back so this, again, doesn't matter.
On top of that you dangerously fail to understand the point of the gates in the first place.
The first gate takes techniques head on, said again here where the second reduces its power and the third disperses the pressure, and Hashirama isn't noted to be special for "summoning different gates", he's noted for summoning more.
They are the same gates. They're just more of em and the other gates have more purposes.
This is just referring to it being his jutsu
No it is not, it blatantly says it's his gate.

This is quite far from your analogy, it's not changing the fundamental principle but adding a new component. Besides, a summon being fueled by the user's chakra is an old concept even if it wasn't previously explicitly a strength amp; that's why summons have time limits.
It is changing the fundamental principle when the principle of the jutsu is to teleport someone from point A to point B, but now you're treating living breathing pre-existing creatures as beings fueled by your power. This is a fundamental principle change.

Every Naruto thread does this, focusing on a side point. I'm not going to add 4 pages to this simple ass thread because you disagree with the canon.

Someone tackle the OP
 
Ykw, who does this eventually end up scaling to? Damn near all the top tiers?
 
Ykw, who does this eventually end up scaling to? Damn near all the top tiers?
If it is restricted to just "Empowered" Naruto, does it scale to anyone? Or do you mean characters scaling to Boruto?
 
Would you participate in an upgrade that would only be listed as "via Empowerment"?
I'm not sure if it is consistent yet for that version of Naruto to get that powerful via his emotions. Still thinking about it. It partly feels like an excuse for an inconsistency to say "Well, he's not that powerful all the time. He just made himself 187,000 times more powerful than usual because he felt really strong emotions at the time".
 
I'm not sure if it is consistent yet for that version of Naruto to get that powerful via his emotions. Still thinking about it. It partly feels like an excuse for an inconsistency to say "Well, he's not that powerful all the time. He just made himself 187,000 times more powerful than usual because he felt really strong emotions at the time".
This is weak. The whole point of mental amp/nerfs is that they're usually well above/below the character's regular capability. It doesn't need to be consistent with anything. Sakura is a well-established example of this
In the case of this specific version of Naruto, we're told that:
And this is just one example
He could blow up a solar system, and it wouldn't change a thing
 
In the case of this specific version of Naruto, we're told that:
Gaara isn't necessarily being hyper-literal there that the love that Naruto feels literally makes him thousands of times stronger than he would be without that feeling.
 
Besides Gaara's words, there are a few other statements.

The databook states that Sakura grows stronger thinking about Sasuke, and Naruto grows stronger thinking about the idea of becoming Hokage.

Haku told Naruto that you become stronger than usual when protecting someone you love.
 
I don't think some of those are literal. Naruto's not gonna fight someone then sit and say "I love my mom" then multiply his AP. It's just saying his determination grows.
Sakura thought about Sasuke in the beginning middle and end of her fight with Ino and she was the same strength.
Naruto has struggled in fights to people he's relative to even after getting "empowered". This is respectfully a cop out.

On top of that, if his strength was really that much higher with said "empowerment", to the level of where it's so much that he's even outgiving the energy given from more tails, why've we... never seen a strength increase like this before?
 
We kind of did. Naruto in Chapter 1 went from barely genin level to negging a high level chunin with a mental amp.
 
This quite literally wasn't a mental amp he learned a new technique and jumped a dude with it.
This is one of the most textbook mental amps in the series, declaring his resolve to protect someone precious to him and performing a feat far above his regular capabilities. There's a reason Naruto doesn't go around summoning 1000 clones all the time, and why he's not chunin level in the LoW/CE other than w Kurama's chakra.
 
This is one of the most textbook mental amps in the series, declaring his resolve to protect someone precious to him and performing a feat far above his regular capabilities. There's a reason Naruto doesn't go around summoning 1000 clones all the time, and why he's not chunin level in the LoW/CE other than w Kurama's chakra.
Naruto isn't able to perform that jutsu because he got a power boost from his emotions. He's able to perform that technique thanks to his incredible stamina and chakra:

A technique developed from the Shadow Clone, a Ninjutsu that creates clones with actual substance. Countless Shadow Clones… The exact number depends on the amount of chakra used, but in any case the amount of chakra consumed is far too great. For this reason, no ninja below Hokage, save for a limited few, can use this technique without risking their life. For that reason, the First Hokage sealed this technique inside the Scroll of Seals as a forbidden move. The reason Naruto was able to learn this technique was his amazing stamina.
 
This is one of the most textbook mental amps in the series, declaring his resolve to protect someone precious to him and performing a feat far above his regular capabilities.
This is quite literally his first feat in the entire series, it isn't any mental amp, it's literally a showing of how cracked he is
There's a reason Naruto doesn't go around summoning 1000 clones all the time,
Yeah, because it's dumb and it nukes your chakra too much, even if you do have a lot, a thousand clones isn't light work, plus he doesn't always need to do it.
and why he's not chunin level in the LoW/CE other than w Kurama's chakra.
In the exact same arc you mentioned, the "suppressed Haku" was above chunin level and rookie Sasuke with his first day out the house skill was superior to him, and Naruto was on his level in the literal next arc
Half of these guys are "chunin level" they're just young and inexperienced and haven't grown enough.

If we start talking about "mental amps" then we need to re-evaluate quite literally every feat Naruto has. Especially since I just looked on his profile, and every single AP feat he has mentioned in his pt 1 profile is when he was high in emotions.
 
I don't think some of those are literal. Naruto's not gonna fight someone then sit and say "I love my mom" then multiply his AP. It's just saying his determination grows.
Sakura thought about Sasuke in the beginning middle and end of her fight with Ino and she was the same strength.
Naruto has struggled in fights to people he's relative to even after getting "empowered". This is respectfully a cop out.

On top of that, if his strength was really that much higher with said "empowerment", to the level of where it's so much that he's even outgiving the energy given from more tails, why've we... never seen a strength increase like this before?
The closest we have to an example of this is Pain thinking Naruto got a power-up in Sage Mode after Minato fixes the seal again and even then the increase wasn't something that was huge, he still went high diff for the W.
 
The closest we have to an example of this is Pain thinking Naruto got a power-up in Sage Mode after Minato fixes the seal again and even then the increase wasn't something that was huge, he still went high diff for the W.
Wasn't even a power up bro was surprised that he gained some balls and he thought because he quickly swapped out (due to the seal) he thought that he mastered Kurama
First thing he said was "his doubt was erased"
 
The Jutsu was only possible thanks to Cooperation Ninjutsu which we know is far greater than the sum of both parts. Jiraiya specifically states within the arc that Boruto and Naruto have a bond that goes beyond just synchronization. To be specific, the only reason Jiraiya decided to train Naruto and Boruto to learn Cooperation Ninjutsu, is because Naruto's psyche reacted to Boruto grabbing onto him while Naruto was influenced by Kurama. Jiraiya surmised from this interaction that they are highly, highly, compatible and that their chakra signatures are incredibly similar. Jiraiya even states that he has no idea what kind of Ninjutsu they'll end up developing because their circumstance is far from the norm, and different from any normal Cooperation Ninjutsu he's seen.

Against Transformed Urashiki, Naruto goes on a rage and spams ranged Jutsu in his 1 Tailed form, but Boruto is able to once again, tap into Boruto's psyche and connect to Naruto on a deeper level, creating a massive Rasengan which was thanks to the emotional, physical and spiritual/mental bond that they share that is BEYOND the scope of regular Cooperation Jutsu training (which includes similar chakra nature, flow and power).

So yes, this feat falls precisely under the definition of empowerment that exists on the wiki. It being an outlier feat is a poor argument because the circumstances of the Jutsu IS an outlier within the verse.
 
Naruto isn't able to perform that jutsu because he got a power boost from his emotions. He's able to perform that technique thanks to his incredible stamina and chakra:
I never said that. I said the reason he was able to summon SO MANY clones was because of his emotions
This is quite literally his first feat in the entire series, it isn't any mental amp, it's literally a showing of how cracked he is
A level of crackedness that he doesn't display again for a good while
Yeah, because it's dumb and it nukes your chakra too much, even if you do have a lot, a thousand clones isn't light work, plus he doesn't always need to do it.
He doesn't always need to do it, but it's not a case of using his trump card conservatively, he only ever uses it against Mizuki, Gaara (where he has a whole flashback about the power of friendship), and arguably Kimimaro (when he had Kurama's chakra). He gets nowhere close to 1000 in other situations, when it would be quite helpful (e.g. Haku, Neji, Sasuke).
In the exact same arc you mentioned, the "suppressed Haku" was above chunin level and rookie Sasuke with his first day out the house skill was superior to him,
No, suppressed Haku is not above chunin level. The only statements we get about his power are of his FP self being above Zabuza/Kakashi, a level LoW Sasuke isn't even in the same conversation as.
and Naruto was on his level in the literal next arc
Half of these guys are "chunin level" they're just young and inexperienced and haven't grown enough.
It's not as if Mizuki is just vaguely in the chunin tier anyways. He scales to Iruka who's a high level chunin, and is arguably even jonin level. Iruka was assigned to knock out a far stronger than chapter 1 Naruto + Sasuke + Sakura (and Team 7 seems to agree he could've done it), and Naruto doesn't even consider himself surpassing Iruka until P2. Pretty clear Pre-LoW Naruto's not on his level.
If we start talking about "mental amps" then we need to re-evaluate quite literally every feat Naruto has. Especially since I just looked on his profile, and every single AP feat he has mentioned in his pt 1 profile is when he was high in emotions.
No, when mental amps exist there's usually a pretty clear indicator of it from dialogue/context (although some of the feats on his profile are indeed mentally amped situations, but I digress).
 
Last edited:
The Jutsu was only possible thanks to Cooperation Ninjutsu which we know is far greater than the sum of both parts. Jiraiya specifically states within the arc that Boruto and Naruto have a bond that goes beyond just synchronization. To be specific, the only reason Jiraiya decided to train Naruto and Boruto to learn Cooperation Ninjutsu, is because Naruto's psyche reacted to Boruto grabbing onto him while Naruto was influenced by Kurama. Jiraiya surmised from this interaction that they are highly, highly, compatible and that their chakra signatures are incredibly similar. Jiraiya even states that he has no idea what kind of Ninjutsu they'll end up developing because their circumstance is far from the norm, and different from any normal Cooperation Ninjutsu he's seen.

Against Transformed Urashiki, Naruto goes on a rage and spams ranged Jutsu in his 1 Tailed form, but Boruto is able to once again, tap into Boruto's psyche and connect to Naruto on a deeper level, creating a massive Rasengan which was thanks to the emotional, physical and spiritual/mental bond that they share that is BEYOND the scope of regular Cooperation Jutsu training (which includes similar chakra nature, flow and power).

So yes, this feat falls precisely under the definition of empowerment that exists on the wiki. It being an outlier feat is a poor argument because the circumstances of the Jutsu IS an outlier within the verse.
If that's the case, then why would they each get half the rating? Wouldn't it make more sense to give each of them the full rating, but specify it can only be done by combining their powers into this one attack?

Something like: High 6-B (374 Teratons) with Combined Rasengan, Weaknesses: Can only use Combined Rasengan with the help of Boruto/Naruto when amped by emotions

or whatever
 
Correct.

I'd probably go as far as to say it just shouldn't be on the profiles. We don't index Boruto + Kawaki's Karma Rasengan because they need each other to do it and it just clutters the profiles (different case from Majestic Attire Susano'o, since some of our scaling is dependent on it), we can add the calc on the Verse Page though.
 
Correct.

I'd probably go as far as to say it just shouldn't be on the profiles. We don't index Boruto + Kawaki's Karma Rasengan because they need each other to do it and it just clutters the profiles (different case from Majestic Attire Susano'o, since some of our scaling is dependent on it), we can add the calc on the Verse Page though.
I mean it'd be important for a team match
 
This is just not true... at all? Nor has it ever been shown in the main series? Or else those little tiny behind frogs Naruto summoned would've been amped when he summoned them.
It's true boss
Tsunade was amping Katsuyu with byakugo chakra to heal dem folks in the Pain invasion arc. The summon is connected to the summoner's chakra.
 
It's true boss
Tsunade was amping Katsuyu with byakugo chakra to heal dem folks in the Pain invasion arc. The summon is connected to the summoner's chakra.
She was not amping Katsuyu. Katsuyu's mechanic and Katsuyu's mechanic alone is that she takes the user's chakra to heal others, using her body as a wireless conduit so that the user doesn't need to physically be there for her patients.
 
She was not amping Katsuyu. Katsuyu's mechanic and Katsuyu's mechanic alone is that she takes the user's chakra to heal others, using her body as a wireless conduit so that the user doesn't need to physically be there for her patients.
Let's not justify that as only Katsuyu's mechanism. Iirc, there has not been any manga statement to even justify it.
 
Back
Top