Revaluation of SS Ichigo AP

[Saqphire]

got my hopes again :sigh:
I agree on your behalf knowing Kubos way of doing these stuff, but with statements such as "it overwhelms everything in existence" via its Reiatsu it'd be weird to assume it being only on that range of power.

Couldn't that statement simply be hyperbolic, given that, well Ichigo didn't get overwhelmed?

Further on the totally NOT main argument I had regarding the non canon game (which yet again, I repeat: it's only to make a point from the authors intent knowing how they are using the same source material as us) that Arrancar was intending the destroy the entire planet and all with him even beating Yamaji, sooo we can argue something over here?

Exactly what are you referring to here? I am confused

 

[Cipher72]

This is just a non-argument. Chain scaling and destructive feats were never correlative in Bleach and in general (case in point; Ishida having building level DC yet being stronger than Senjumaru who can shake the three realms) and the size of Lanza's explosion is headcanon. Chain scaling is correlative to Bankai amps and "strongest" statements aka AP, please don't derail the thread with nonsense AP = DC arguments

Now ofc AP≠DC but I am suggesting that if Ichigo was truly capable of Planetary AP as early as SS arc then Ulq's feat which focuses on DC makes no sense.

 

[Specterxxxx]

It seems most people here are having issues understanding the scale of the Soul society depending on Context, so I will break it down a bit.

• If the soul society is used in the context where it is in tandem with the other worlds like heuco mondo and world of the living. Then it is referring to the universe. E.G senjumaru feat, Senna feat, reio feat, yhwach destroying statements e.t.c
• If the soul society is referred to on its own, without being joined with the other realms. Then the default assumed is the planet unless we have evidence of the otherwise (which we usually don't). E.G Yamamoto’s Feat
• If the soul society is used in the context, where it is dependents on the lives of people inside it, then its referring to the seretei + rukongai possibly. E.G when Ichigo confronts Yhwach in cour 1 of tybw and asks if he was the one wrecking the soul society.

This is usually how i interprete it, now in this case the planet itself seems most likely due to another version of sokyoku having the capacity to cause serious damage to the Valley of screams dimension, a dimension that houses a star so a weaker one being in planet level range isn't too far fetched.

Now would it work or should it get accepted? I don't know because that is up to the staffs to decide and I myself haven't decided yet till I see further arguments.

 

[Ralp0054]

I still haven't seen a well-founded counter-argument. Although the AP/DC issue might seem like a problem, I don't think it is. I don't want to give an example from another verse, but for instance, Saitama's serious punch, considered 4-A or 3-C, didn't cause 4-A or 3-C level destruction against Boros, even though its effect was immense (for example, splitting the clouds). But please tell me if my perspective is flawed.

 

[Damage3245]

I still haven't seen a well-founded counter-argument. Although the AP/DC issue might seem like a problem, I don't think it is. I don't want to give an example from another verse, but for instance, Saitama's serious punch, considered 4-A or 3-C, didn't cause 4-A or 3-C level destruction against Boros, even though its effect was immense (for example, splitting the clouds). But please tell me if my perspective is flawed.

Saitama can vary the amount of strength he uses in his punches to a ridiculous degree. I don't think there's any indication that the particular Serious Punch he used against Boros was 4-A or 3-C, especially considering Boros actually briefly survived it and 4-A or 3-C is well beyond what would leave Boros' body as intact as it did.

 

[WhixGG]

Exactly what are you referring to here? I am confused

I think he's talking about a game called Shattered Blade, in which an Arrancar uses the shards of sokyoku to destroy the Soul Society planet. What he means by using this argument is that the staff involved in the development of the game were familiar with sokyoku and its abilities, and if I'm not mistaken, the game's creator himself had an interview with Kubo about this.

 

[Ralp0054]

Saitama can vary the amount of strength he uses in his punches to a ridiculous degree. I don't think there's any indication that the particular Serious Punch he used against Boros was 4-A or 3-C, especially considering Boros actually briefly survived it and 4-A or 3-C is well beyond what would leave Boros' body as intact as it did.

That's a nice idea, but it seems like it needs a little support.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Saitama can vary the amount of strength he uses in his punches to a ridiculous degree. I don't think there's any indication that the particular Serious Punch he used against Boros was 4-A or 3-C, especially considering Boros actually briefly survived it and 4-A or 3-C is well beyond what would leave Boros' body as intact as it did.

To be fair, his most powerful punch in the series or at least even 2nd, 3rd and even 4th didn't have 4A or 3C DC.

 

[Saqphire]

It seems most people here are having issues understanding the scale of the Soul society depending on Context, so I will break it down a bit.

• If the soul society is used in the context where it is in tandem with the other worlds like heuco mondo and world of the living. Then it is referring to the universe. E.G senjumaru feat, Senna feat, reio feat, yhwach destroying statements e.t.c
• If the soul society is referred to on its own, without being joined with the other realms. Then the default assumed is the planet unless we have evidence of the otherwise (which we usually don't). E.G Yamamoto’s Feat
• If the soul society is used in the context, where it is dependents on the lives of people inside it, then its referring to the seretei + rukongai possibly. E.G when Ichigo confronts Yhwach in cour 1 of tybw and asks if he was the one wrecking the soul society.
  
  This is usually how i interprete it,

The second interpretation can easily mean solely Seireitei and the Rugonkai though? As it being mentioned solo doesnt necessarily mean it refers to the entire planet, that is overextending the statement. You even provide Ichigo talking to Yhwach about wrecking Soul Society yet Soul Society was mentioned alone in that statement as well, but contextually it was referring to the Seireitei alone.

Yamamoto's statements can thus easily refer to the city-wide range, but could also refer to the Universe actually, as it is far more potent than Gremmy's 4-A - 3-C feat as admitted by Yhwach saying only his power can contain it. This interpretation is iffy however, as AP aint DC and as such he can still have a 4-A bankai with a city level range as a result

This is usually how i interprete it, now in this case the planet itself seems most likely due to another version of sokyoku having the capacity to cause serious damage to the Valley of screams dimension, a dimension that houses a star so a weaker one being in planet level range isn't too far fetched.

This actually makes sense however; it lends credence to Sokyoku's statement referring to a planet bust if anything.

 

[Ralp0054]

So what I'm saying is simple, the Lanza del Relampago DC makes the whole thing look suspicious, but if you look at it that way, the Mugetsu DC just cut a hill, that's all, so using that as a counter-argument is pointless. Arguing that SS is not a planet also leads nowhere, and I agree until someone comes up with something stronger.

 

[Ralp0054]

The second interpretation can easily mean solely Seireitei and the Rugonkai though? As it being mentioned solo doesnt necessarily mean it refers to the entire planet, that is overextending the statement. You even provide Ichigo talking to Yhwach about wrecking Soul Society yet Soul Society was mentioned alone in that statement as well, but contextually it was referring to the Seireitei alone.

Yamamoto's statements can thus easily refer to the city-wide range, but could also refer to the Universe actually, as it is far more potent than Gremmy's 4-A - 3-C feat as admitted by Yhwach saying only his power can contain it. This interpretation is iffy however, as AP aint DC and as such he can still have a 4-A bankai with a city level range as a result

This actually makes sense however; it lends credence to Sokyoku's statement referring to a planet bust if anything.

You interpreted it very well.

 

[Specterxxxx]

The second interpretation can easily mean solely Seireitei and the Rugonkai though? As it being mentioned solo doesnt necessarily mean it refers to the entire planet, that is overextending the statement.

No it doesn't because in yama case, it is stated in EP 6 key card, that prolong use of his bankai will destroy the ENTIRE soul society. Entire encompasses the planet as default.

You even provide Ichigo talking to Yhwach about wrecking Soul Society yet Soul Society was mentioned alone in that statement as well, but contextually it was referring to the Seireitei alone.

I don't think it was only the seretei that was affected in the first invasion but fair.

Yamamoto's statements can thus easily refer to the city-wide range

Nahhh, via the nature of the feat the least possible interpretation is planet level.

, but could also refer to the Universe actually, as it is far more potent than Gremmy's 4-A - 3-C feat as admitted by Yhwach saying only his power can contain it. This interpretation is iffy however, as AP aint DC and as such he can still have a 4-A bankai with a city level range as a result

His reaitsu is more potent, not the heat his reaitsu creates.

This actually makes sense however; it lends credence to Sokyoku's statement referring to a planet bust if anything.

I agree, tho I will wait for others input before finalising my opinion.

 

[Saqphire]

No it doesn't because in yama case, it is stated in EP 6 key card, that prolong use of his bankai will destroy the ENTIRE soul society. Entire encompasses the planet as default.

Nahhh, via the nature of the feat the least possible interpretation is planet level.

I mean unless the Seireitei + Rugonkai was also nuked beforehand, then I don't see how the overtime part cannot refer to S+R part instead of the entire planetary (or universal) structure

His reaitsu is more potent, not the heat his reaitsu creates.

Potency refers to energy, and heat is energy in thermodynamics, and we calculate heat changes via temparature changes of mass (i.e. the joules are derived from X amount of mass with Y temperature from Z temperature, like 10KG of mass being heated up to 100C from 20C).

So Yamamoto's Bankai being more potent than joule values of 4-A despite it merely having 15 million C as it's maximum temperature would require the mass of the object being burnt up to increase, otherwise the calc is incoherent. Since the object is Soul Society, the only object that can possibly contain that much mass in relation to Gremmy's joules is the Universe itself. Unless of course, 15 million C is wrong and it is actually way hotter lol

 

[ItsMeat]

Yeah, I am neutral on this. I mean, I can see it, but it’s something like <=70%, as we cannot be certain what the soul society reffers to in this case, same for what "destroying it" really means. I could agree with a possible or maybe even likely rating if we're being generous, but that's all.

 

[Cipher72]

So what I'm saying is simple, the Lanza del Relampago DC makes the whole thing look suspicious, but if you look at it that way, the Mugetsu DC just cut a hill, that's all, so using that as a counter-argument is pointless. Arguing that SS is not a planet also leads nowhere, and I agree until someone comes up with something stronger.

Alright since I originally brought this up and didn't really clarify because I was busy with something else I apologise.
Let me make myself clear;
Firstly;
AP ≠ DC
Now;
Whereas other characters like Uruyu have a very high AP compared to their DC the same isn't arguable for Ulq. No-one in their correct mind is arguing Uruyu has Galaxy level AP so why isn't he destroying Galaxies with his arrows or well I am not arguing that.
What I am saying is that If the Narrative intent behind Sokyoku's statement was Planetary DC then a character namely Ulquiorra who is far superior to the version of Ichigo that supposedly scales to this Planetary DC and whose resurrección is noted for his offensive abilities. His regeneration is his ace and strongest point but it's still true that he has really good DC added with the Fact that he had to go above the canopy to use his cero and Resurrección because of it's destructive capability and that Lanza is superior to both of those (used in his second Resurrección) I think that his AP to DC proportion should be quite close not as broad as (H6-A vs 5-B ?).
As for the Mon argument I don't believe it was completely written by Kubo although it has his stamp of approval, he introduced several concepts, was the executive director, several concepts from it is very much canon and I do believe in it's canonicity 100%. I believe that the Dimension destroying Kidō canon should be viewed with Skepticism.

TLDR; Assuming the narrative intent of the Sokyoku was Planetary DC it contradicts Kubo's later showings of “impressive DC”. It makes no sense for a Character that can damage a far superior Ichigo to have such a wide discrepancy between AP & DC when one of their notable attributes is DC.
Also again this is my personal opinion, someone else might have a different opinion and I am completely fine with that and I respect their opinion but I personally don't see the Sokyoku referring to Planetary DC. I am willing to have my mind changed on this issue.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Lowkey? I kinda wanna agree with OP, the sheer prospect of 5-B ss arc ichigo is so funny I almost hope this gets accepted unironically

I believe Seireitei and SS being distinguished would be sufficent. Seireitei acts as the society part known as the capital of Rukongai with other branches being on other sides like Reverse London and all, it'd be pretty redundant for Aizen to scale off Sokyoku based on only the people or nations even though we had prior conformation of it.

All this gives you is seretei and rukongai together as a whole structure, as I've shown baseline mentions of this location does not include the planet or stars or whatever else so it wouldn't be redundant it would be internally consistent with the stories referencing of what it entails

yes I'm totally aware of this even beforehand I told Whix we MIGHT f up the entire chainscaling, but eh now we're here I prefer to at least give it a go.

See now if you upgraded them to low-2C, you would not have to give a shit about chainscaling or multipliers cuz everyone would be Tier 2

just be glad I didn't argue Uni+ Ichigo xaxa

I honestly think most bleach scalers would unironically use this to push tier 2 ichigo, the only reason they don't is because it is way too early into the scaling chain and would be seen as controversial, but ofc it is incorrect, sokyoku scaling entirely is incorrect be it 6-B or 5-B

That wouldn't be the case with the likes of Yamaji then?(actually I'm not aware of how we treat "the destruction of Soul Society" statements given to him, I only know him downscaling from Zero Division and upscaling from Gremmy's feats)

No, it won't Yamamoto's destruction isn't planetary and neither is this, none of these remotely satisfy the preponderance of evidence required to touch planet level or even surface of the planet level

using him as evidence for this doesn't work if he's also not taken as that

got my hopes again :sigh:
I agree on your behalf knowing Kubos way of doing these stuff, but with statements such as "it overwhelms everything in existence" via its Reiatsu it'd be weird to assume it being only on that range of power. Further on the totally NOT main argument I had regarding the non canon game (which yet again, I repeat: it's only to make a point from the authors intent knowing how they are using the same source material as us) that Arrancar was intending the destroy the entire planet and all with him even beating Yamaji, sooo we can argue something over here?

"non canon game" "author intent" "Arrancars wanna destroy the planet"


r we deadass

wouldn't also makes sense for the main capital where everyone live within to jump to a "larger" city as whole.

No it would make perfect sense to go from referring a smaller structure to a significantly larger structure, it's not even a city anymore with the way seretei's size is accepted to have a diameter almost half of that of the moon on here

why would Aizen give that much context just for it to be a "city-wide" level feat despite Captains already breaching that state (at least in sense of our powerscaling)
It either have to overpower the entire Gotei 13 to achieve destroying the "society" as meaning of nation (which includes Yama and Unohana) or destroy the planet.

Where the hell are these city level wide powerscaling from the captains coming from? these people do not remotely have any tier 6 or mid end tier 7 feats by the time the story reaches this, they were mountain level before the 6-B sokyoku glaze came in and made every town level character 6-B and high 6-B
I dont see where you are finding this pre established city to country busting powers from the captains where SS's strongest scaling comes from one statement (which is this) and nothing else

Yamamoto doesn't count because he can destroy the soul society in his final endgame suicide attack that he himself doesn't scale to



it can "destroy the society" or habitual section of the soul society by making it unlivable, killing most lives and turning the scene into a barren wasteland is "destroying the soul society"

yhwach's invasion didnt kill the gotei, nor did it destroy everything guess what? ichigo calls it wrecking the soul society when he encounters yhwach and he later says they destroyed the seretei and we can visibly see, it didnt do any explosion to take out the planet, the dimension, hell it did not even destroy the country in the explosion formula interpretation that they currently scale to

It should be said that Soul Society has three different meanings, including seireitei, Soul Society Universe which is low 2-c by itself, and Soul Society planet. So Soul Society can have different meanings in different situations. If we were to proceed with the discussion based on Ichigo's words during the quincies invasion, Soul Society would only mean Seireitei. However, this is not the case. As we have seen and supported in the guidebooks, it is said that it has the ability to destroy not just seireitei but existence and Soul Society as well, Since Soul Society and the world of the living are two sides of the same coin and parallel, it can be said that the planet that the Shinigamies live on is equal to the same Earth. As I said, in the guidebooks, the ability of the sokyoku spiritual pressure power is equal to the destruction of existence, which we can consider equal to everything on Earth, as well as the Earth itself.
On the other hand, we cannot interpret the term "Soul Society" here as meaning the entire dimension or the universe of "Soul Society", because it has no specific context in this case and is also not logical.

nothing burger argument, the guidebooks saying they're two sides of the same coin supports the universal idea, not planetary, that's a weird interpretation limit you're adding for no reason? they live in an earth equivalent planet in a WOL-universe equivalent universe, this doesn't help the planetary arguments, all the same they live in an earth equivalent continent in an earth equivalent country, where randomly cherrypick PLANET specifically when the word planet does not get used even ONCE in any form of bleach canon media be it guidebooks, manga, anime, novels, anything

all of existence includes hueco mundo and the WOL you wanna add them in too for a nice 2-C SS arc ichigo?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the comparison between SS and seireitei, specifically the "not just London, but England" analogy, made sense until I remembered that in the Burn the Witch anime, the reverse of London was written as SS West Coast. I think it wouldn't be wrong to assume that SS is a planet here.

Obviously this doesnt prove by itself the Sokyoku is referencing all branches of the soul society, like with the yhwach example, the yoruichi example scar showed, the databook explanation calling the SS the addition of seretei of rukongai, 3 consistent showings that tell us it is referencing the country letting us know people can address the east branch as soul society, so isolated soul society mentions do not necessitate all branches being referenced

but even if I am charitable, WHY JUMP TO PLANET, this leap in logic does not make sense because you can just have an explosion that covers the surface of the planet originating from east branch to the west branch and that would include the destruction of all possible branches, even if you argue there are more branches then that, a simple surface wipe attack (646 petatons) would get rid of all of them, why does it need to overcome Earth's GBE? why does it need to dig into earths core and destroy even that?

If the soul society is referred to on its own, without being joined with the other realms. Then the default assumed is the planet unless we have evidence of the otherwise (which we usually don't). E.G Yamamoto’s Feat

Soul Society references on their own are NEVER talking about the planet so this is just entirely made up and not shown in any dialogue within any medium within bleach

and no yamamoto's scene is also not in reference to the planet either, both of these are talking about the country in absence of stronger evidence

Nahhh, via the nature of the feat the least possible interpretation is planet level.

No? we just making anything up at this point

 

[NeonTxme]

Hey so mb for disappearing all of the sudden, my wifi is getting a bit difficult to work with hope you guys understand.
I'll try to answer as many as questions possible, thanks everyone for your time!

Couldn't that statement simply be hyperbolic, given that, well Ichigo didn't get overwhelmed?

that's it... something weird to say-
I don't get your point, are you trying to imply that "if Sokyoku overwhelms everything in existence then it would so affect Ichigo"?

Also I'm mentioning a NON CANON game made by Sega.

E.G Yamamoto’s Feat

Ilysm please never get experiment on by Mayuri

To be fair, his most powerful punch in the series or at least even 2nd, 3rd and even 4th didn't have 4A or 3C DC.

can we not?

The second interpretation can easily mean solely Seireitei and the Rugonkai though? As it being mentioned solo doesnt necessarily mean it refers to the entire planet, that is overextending the statement. You even provide Ichigo talking to Yhwach about wrecking Soul Society yet Soul Society was mentioned alone in that statement as well, but contextually it was referring to the Seireitei alone.

Yamamoto's statements can thus easily refer to the city-wide range, but could also refer to the Universe actually, as it is far more potent than Gremmy's 4-A - 3-C feat as admitted by Yhwach saying only his power can contain it. This interpretation is iffy however, as AP aint DC and as such he can still have a 4-A bankai with a city level range as a result

Yet again I pointed out Idrk how we interpretate Yama's feats, but a logical assumption going around was his power were capable of eradicating the entire Soul Society "planet" knowing how a single movement of his blade destroyed near ¼ of the Seireitei no one would've assumed only Rukongai and Seireitei are given to us as context.

Yet again, both the Sokyoku and Yama's feats are treated in such a same way. Both statements use the same language framework. Applying different interpretations to identical phrasing would be a bit of special pleading

If Aizen really wants to imply that a larger area regarding the planet will be blown away it would've been more illogical, since Seireitei is already a specific place within the SS, referring to SS as merely a larger region of the same surface would make the distinction redundant. The statement only carries weight if "Soul Society" denotes the total realm that contains the Seireitei, Saying "not only X, but Y" implies Y is strictly larger than X as you're emphasizing on a much-higher casuality.
If the destruction of a specific area was anyone's concern then we should downgrade all of captains as well knowing they might be incompetent from destroying a specific area or their population.

I really hate circularing around but Aizen explaining how Sokyoku is made-up from 1 million Zapnakutos which can be amplified by 36 times when executing a Shinigami (which also puts it in that planetary ranged discussed) just to say "Yeah it's going to just destroy the next 20 km after Seireitei which Toshiro definitely can" would be unnecessary.

So what I'm saying is simple, the Lanza del Relampago DC makes the whole thing look suspicious, but if you look at it that way, the Mugetsu DC just cut a hill, that's all, so using that as a counter-argument is pointless. Arguing that SS is not a planet also leads nowhere, and I agree until someone comes up with something stronger.

I believe bringing up this subject again knowing the counter-measurements wouldn't be essential-
Still, Yamamato with his statements never shown destruction of the entire Seireitei let alone the planet.

 

[NeonTxme]

Yeah, I am neutral on this. I mean, I can see it, but it’s something like <=70%, as we cannot be certain what the soul society reffers to in this case, same for what "destroying it" really means. I could agree with a possible or maybe even likely rating if we're being generous, but that's all.

I believe a revision in such a range wouldn't be optimal for "Likely" or "Possibly" knowing how it affects the entire in-verse, but still thanks for you opinion!

 

[Specterxxxx]

I mean unless the Seireitei + Rugonkai was also nuked beforehand, then I don't see how the overtime part cannot refer to S+R part instead of the entire planetary (or universal) structure

It doesn't because the entire soul society is bigger than a country with external countries around it.

Potency refers to energy, and heat is energy in thermodynamics, and we calculate heat changes via temparature changes of mass (i.e. the joules are derived from X amount of mass with Y temperature from Z temperature, like 10KG of mass being heated up to 100C from 20C).

By heat I meant temperature, not heat energy.

So Yamamoto's Bankai being more potent than joule values of 4-A despite it merely having 15 million C as it's maximum temperature would require the mass of the object being burnt up to increase, otherwise the calc is incoherent. Since the object is Soul Society, the only object that can possibly contain that much mass in relation to Gremmy's joules is the Universe itself. Unless of course, 15 million C is wrong and it is actually way hotter lol

This is speculation, so I think you don't intend me to take this as an argument right but it is accurate for the most part.

 

[Ralp0054]

Nah man, let's make WoL a Karakura town, SS a country, and HM a multi-continent, and create an eternal H6-A bleach.

 

[ItsMeat]

Nah man, let's make WoL a Karakura town, SS a country, and HM a multi-continent, and create an eternal H6-A bleach.

Let's make the entire Bleach multiverse a hill

 

[Specterxxxx]

No? we just making anything up at this point

Unless you or anyone in this thread can convincingly make an argument that destroying the soul society entirely doesn't at least translate to planet level destruction. Then you are the ones making stuff up. Destroying a section of the soul society isn't destroying it entirely.

The key card proves that my interpretation is the best possible interpretation;

長時間卍解し続ければ刀を操る本人や尸魂界を滅ぼしてしまうほど強力であり
If the Bankai is maintained for a long time/several hours, it's power will destroy the user and Soul Society entirely.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Unless you or anyone in this thread can convincingly make an argument that destroying the soul society entirely doesn't at least translate to planet level destruction. Then you are the ones making stuff up. Destroying a section of the soul society isn't destroying it entirely.

The key card proves that my interpretation is the best possible interpretation;

長時間卍解し続ければ刀を操る本人や尸魂界を滅ぼしてしまうほど強力であり
If the Bankai is maintained for a long time/several hours, it's power will destroy the user and Soul Society entirely.

Burden on proof is on you bud, we default to the lowest interpretation in absence of greater evidence, you're placing this "entire" before Soul Society to justify the planet being referenced even tho neither the episode card nor dialogues mention "entirely"

Obviously this doesnt prove by itself the Sokyoku is referencing all branches of the soul society, like with the yhwach example, the yoruichi example scar showed, the databook explanation calling the SS the addition of seretei of rukongai, 3 consistent showings that tell us it is referencing the country letting us know people can address the east branch as soul society, so isolated soul society mentions do not necessitate all branches being referenced

but even if I am charitable, WHY JUMP TO PLANET, this leap in logic does not make sense because you can just have an explosion that covers the surface of the planet originating from east branch to the west branch and that would include the destruction of all possible branches, even if you argue there are more branches then that, a simple surface wipe attack (646 petatons) would get rid of all of them, why does it need to overcome Earth's GBE? why does it need to dig into earths core and destroy even that?

we wouldn't even account for other branches on an isolated "SS - Nuke" statements but even if we did that would still not come near planetary as I explained here

---

If entirely is the deal breaking word for you, that makes the Sokyoku 3A/2C lmfao (which aye if you wanna go for it, be my guest I won't argue against it lolz)

 

[WhixGG]

nothing burger argument, the guidebooks saying they're two sides of the same coin supports the universal idea, not planetary, that's a weird interpretation limit you're adding for no reason? they live in an earth equivalent planet in a WOL-universe equivalent universe, this doesn't help the planetary arguments, all the same they live in an earth equivalent continent in an earth equivalent country, where randomly cherrypick PLANET specifically when the word planet does not get used even ONCE in any form of bleach canon media be it guidebooks, manga, anime, novels, anything

all of existence includes hueco mundo and the WOL you wanna add them in too for a nice 2-C SS arc ichigo?

I’m not saying that this databook statement doesn’t support the ss being universal. What I’m saying is that when they are described as two sides of the same coin, it essentially means that these two universes can be equal in all aspects, the size of the universe, the stars and galaxies, and even the planet that the Shinigamies live on.
It’s true that Soul Society is not explicitly called “Earth” and is simply referred to as Soul Society, but as I wrote, we need to pay attention to the context and the situation in which the statement is being used. If we were to argue that the statement is not referring to the planet of Soul Society, but rather to the entire universe, that would be an illogical argument given the events that occur throughout the story, and it also lacks a specific contextual basis although we can interpret “existence” in multiple ways, one of which can indeed be the Earth itself.
At the very least, we can consider ichigos AP to be possibly planetary.

 

[WhixGG]

This is just my opinion, and I’m not particularly firm or insistent about it.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Burden on proof is on you bud, we default to the lowest interpretation in absence of greater evidence, you're placing this "entire" before Soul Society to justify the planet being referenced even tho neither the episode card nor dialogues mention "entirely"

The only time the ss+rukongai was referred to as the soul society in the first place, was to show the map of the place which isn't a definitive stamp on its size, this is like saying the map of an island is the size of island they can be used to represent different things.

Secondly, please read the link I said you would see the translate of the key card specifically mention "entirely". So the burden of proof falls on you.

 

[Specterxxxx]

we wouldn't even account for other branches on an isolated "SS - Nuke" statements but even if we did that would still not come near planetary as I explained here

---

If entirely is the deal breaking word for you, that makes the Sokyoku 3A/2C lmfao (which aye if you wanna go for it, be my guest I won't argue against it lolz)

What are you talking about, I literally use the MON higher version of sokyoku to justify a weaker one destroying planet. So this isn't likely at all

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

The only time the ss+rukongai was referred to as the soul society in the first place, was to show the map of the place which isn't a definitive stamp on its size, this is like saying the map of an island is the size of island they can be used to represent different things.

Secondly, please read the link I said you would see the translate of the key card specifically mention "entirely". So the burden of proof falls on you.

none of my arguments frame it as a definite size showing? it shows us that it can and does get referenced as the SS consistently without involving a planet or multiple continents or even a universe


I've checked every scan in your imgur link, I'm not seeing the word entirely anywhere when I check the raws, you'd have to point to me a specific kanji of "entirely" existing in that text or get a translation helper to validate this claim

What are you talking about, I literally use the MON higher version of sokyoku to justify a weaker one destroying planet. So this isn't likely at all

planet busting needs to be necessitated, just because that can be a support doesn't make up for the lack of definitive evidence for this? what you're quoting is directly telling you it's not being necessitated

 

[Specterxxxx]

none of my arguments frame it as a definite size showing? it shows us that it can and does get referenced as the SS consistently without involving a planet or multiple continents or even a universe

Again I said the context matters, the map of a place isn't the size or range of place so and it doesn't get referenced consistently like the other metas, it was used once as a map so it doesn't matter here

I've checked every scan in your imgur link, I'm not seeing the word entirely anywhere when I check the raws, you'd have to point to me a specific kanji of "entirely" existing in that text or get a translation helper to validate this claim

Do it yourself.

planet busting needs to be necessitated, just because that can be a support doesn't make up for the lack of definitive evidence for this? what you're quoting is directly telling you it's not being necessitated

It is necessitated because its the default interpretation of ss destruction.

 

[Saqphire]

I think he's talking about a game called Shattered Blade, in which an Arrancar uses the shards of sokyoku to destroy the Soul Society planet. What he means by using this argument is that the staff involved in the development of the game were familiar with sokyoku and its abilities, and if I'm not mistaken, the game's creator himself had an interview with Kubo about this.

If he has scans showcasing this, then that really enhances his position here as the narrative intent would match his premise at that point. If it's true then I have no problems with the CRT.

It doesn't because the entire soul society is bigger than a country with external countries around it.

Yeah, that's again, another interpretation of Soul Society from Burn the Witch prominently. Soul Society has also been said to be a city in total at times, so we don't know what Kubo means with that (unless the interview stuff above is true)

By heat I meant temperature, not heat energy.

Same difference, Yamamoto's feat involves temperature change from normal temperature to 15 million degrees C

This is speculation, so I think you don't intend me to take this as an argument right but it is accurate for the most part.

It's the conclusion I derived from thermodynamic calculations if we assume that Yamamoto is stronger than Gremmy who is 4-A. Either Gremmy isn't 4-A, Yamamoto's temperature statement is wrong, Yamamoto isn't stronger than Gremmy or all three factors are true. But unless we just completely ignore the laws of physics, the mass of Soul Society is exponentially higher than our planet's if all three are true and unless we are conceding that the mass of the planet is just black hole levels of weight, "Soul Society" refers to the Universe.

For reference, the formula is this: Q = m x c x DeltaT where Q is joules, M is mass, c is specific heat capacity and DeltaT is temperature change. If Q is Gremmy's output, and DeltaT is 15 million C, then the mass has to be way higher in Soul Society than the Earth's.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I’m not saying that this databook statement doesn’t support the ss being universal. What I’m saying is that when they are described as two sides of the same coin, it essentially means that these two universes can be equal in all aspects, the size of the universe, the stars and galaxies, and even the planet that the Shinigamies live on.
It’s true that Soul Society is not explicitly called “Earth” and is simply referred to as Soul Society, but as I wrote, we need to pay attention to the context and the situation in which the statement is being used.

I'm telling you it ONLY supports the universal argument, it doesn't reference the Soul Society as a Planet such a context is nonexistent, it's talking about the realms as a whole so trying to use this to support the idea is just using the wrong key in the wrong lock

If we were to argue that the statement is not referring to the planet of Soul Society, but rather to the entire universe, that would be an illogical argument given the events that occur throughout the story, and it also lacks a specific contextual basis although we can interpret “existence” in multiple ways, one of which can indeed be the Earth itself.
At the very least, we can consider ichigos AP to be possibly planetary.

assuming this is talking about the sokyoku statement, why is it illogical to assume universe? why is it not illogical to assume planet for the same reasons?

why is it logical to assume past the main country? so many leaps in logic and not one of them being supported doesn't ring any alarms in your head?

Yeah it can be interpreted as Earth but that's not enough to get even a possibly rating

---

Again I said the context matters, the map of a place isn't the size or range of place so and it doesn't get referenced consistently like the other metas, it was used once as a map so it doesn't matter here

Not once did I deny context mattering? I said context does not support this one bit, it was referenced like this three different times and it 100% matters here be it once thrice or ten times,

NOTHING in the sokyoku or yamamotos destruction statements imply planetary levels of power, you need to interpret what the soul society could be just to reach that conclusion and if the story's portrayal of what the SS entails shows it can be lower than what you are trying to interpret it as, that would obviously matter and would have to prove it isn't the default low interp

Do it yourself.

huh-

you know what yeah sure, here you go, 0 mentions of "entirely"

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It is necessitated because its the default interpretation of ss destruction.

we (collectively) spent almost this entire CRT going over why it is not the default interpretation at all, what is the point of making a claim refuted throughout the conversation?

 

[NeonTxme]

If he has scans showcasing this, then that really enhances his position here as the narrative intent would match his premise at that point. If it's true then I have no problems with the CRT.

Bleach: Shattered Blade, known as Bleach Wii Hakujin Kirameku Rondo (BLEACH Wii 白刃きらめく輪舞曲ロンド, lit. "Bleach Wii: The Drawn Sword's Glittering Rondo") in Japan, is a video game for Nintendo's Wii that is developed by Sega. It is based off the popular anime and manga series, Bleach. The player is able to swing the characters' swords by using the Wii Remote.

Sega, in conjunction with Bleach creator Tite Kubo, has designed a character specifically for this game, named Arturo Plateado. - Wiki Pedia page

Bleach fans will want to tune in for this little fact. Sega has announced that Bleach Wii will have an all new character whose creation was supervised by series father Tite Kubo himself. The character, Altoro, will be voiced by famous voice actor Tomokazu Seki.

- Wii Bleach

 

[Saqphire]

For some reason the site is bugging out when I try to quote you and you alone OP so I'm just gonna tag you @NeonTxme

If what @WhixGG told me was true about the game, and if we steelman the argument to say that you aren't arguing for the canonicity of the game perse, but rather because Kubo supervised the game and the plot, and the plot involves the shards of Sokyoku being planetary, the actual Sokyoku would have to by Kubo's intent be planetary as a result. If yes, then I fully agree w the CRT

 

[NeonTxme]

For some reason the site is bugging out when I try to quote you and you alone OP so I'm just gonna tag you @NeonTxme

If what @WhixGG told me was true about the game, and if we steelman the argument to say that you aren't arguing for the canonicity of the game perse, but rather because Kubo supervised the game and the plot, and the plot involves the shards of Sokyoku being planetary, the actual Sokyoku would have to by Kubo's intent be planetary as a result. If yes, then I fully agree w the CRT

Very well, thanks for your vote and time!

Just a quick question, am i allowed to add knowledgeable members to the list?

 

[Saqphire]

Very well, thanks for your vote and time!

Just a quick question, am i allowed to add knowledgeable members to the list?

I think so?

Also, since this revision affects pretty much everyone in Soul Society and beyond after Ichigo's training (plus captains and Yamamoto with the exception of Soi Fon who thought blocking it was unfeasable), you have to list who gets affected by this change.

Unrelated but Ark's 4-C GRC calc becomes less and less ridiculous from ts

 

[WhixGG]

plot involves the shards of Sokyoku being planetary, the actual Sokyoku would have to by Kubo's intent be planetary as a result. If yes, then I fully agree w the CRT

The story of the game is mainly about a character who was sealed for certain reasons. After returning, he starts absorbing Sokyoku’s powers to regain his strength. He even fights characters like Yamamoto in his shikai form and defeats him. Once he collects all the shards, he declares that no one in the Soul Society, the living world, or Hueco Mundo can stand against him. You can also see on Wikipedia that in the plot section of the game, it mentions that after collecting Sokyoku’s shards, he intended to destroy the Soul Society.

 

[Cipher72]

The story of the game is mainly about a character who was sealed for certain reasons. After returning, he starts absorbing Sokyoku’s powers to regain his strength. He even fights characters like Yamamoto in his Bankai form and defeats him.

Holy Sokyoku & SS arc Ichigo upscale

 

[SacredDao]

I agree, given the context and all. Like sereitei is freaking big like large country, rukongai would be even bigger so i don't think jump would be that big in that same statement.

 

[Ren_amamya]

After reading through the thread and the comments, I agree because argument for Sokyoku it makes sense to me

Also I’m really looking forward to seeing this kind of chain scaling for the rest of the verse. So following

 

[YmTheSuper]

I think the interpretation that the Soul Society is referring to the Seireitei and Rukongai only makes the most sense considering that not only is the Soul Society introduced within the same arc as being composed of the Sereitei and Rukongai but most of the time when it's mentioned in the arc it's referring to the political entity rather than the planet. In fact I would argue that assuming that statements mentioning the Soul Society without further context should be considered to be referring to the inhabited land of the Soul Society (aka the Seireitei and the Rukongai) as it's what the word is mostly referring to across the series (For example devestating and wrecking the Soul Society in these scans are referring to the destruction of the buildings and cities). There are barely any statements that refer to the "Soul Society" directly as the planet.

Also Ichigo and the other captains being planet level since the Soul Society Arc makes no sense considering Gremmy planned to kill everyone with his meteor (Characters insanely stronger than soul society Ichigo and Byakuya such as the Sternritter who themselves are seen scared for their lives and afraid of his meteor). This meteor has lower yield than the suggested planet level for Soul Society characters and Gremmy himself is shocked that someone has the power to cut the meteor in one slash. This further supports that the destruction of the Soul Society by the Sokyoku isn't referring to the planet but rather the cities/districts as otherwise these characters that are way way stronger than Soul Society Ichigo shouldn't be scared of a weaker meteor and Gremmy would know better than to try to use it to wipe everyone out.