SM Universe Revision

[Iamunanimousinthat]

And sorry to triple post but here's another neutral example:





The author doesn't own the translation nor the translator's commentary.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Here is evidence. These earlier translations are not owned by Naoko. They're copyrighted by a different company.

Sp those examples don't work for the following:

1. In your first example the book states that the license lf the translation is held by the company
2. The second picture is 404'ed
3. The third image is a Canadian copyright. In Canada they have different copyright laws where the translator or the translation copy owns the words:

Authorized Translations
Authorized translations occur when the copyright owner of a work allows another person to translate their work into another language. Copyright ownership in an authorized translation of an underlying work is clear: the translator will be the first owner of the copyright in the translation. However, ss. 13(3) of the Act provides for an exception if the translation was made during the course of employment: the copyright will be owned by the employer. Where the translator is engaged as an independent contractor, the services agreement between the copyright owner of the underlying work and the translator should govern who owns the copyright in the translation. In some cases, the translator will be permitted to retain copyright ownership in the translation, and in others, the copyright will be assigned to the copyright owner of the original work.

Like, none of this actually disputes my points. She owns the translaiton copyright because the country it was released it states that she has the copyright over derived works. Its why in Canada the translation copy just owns the English words and the law is slightly different.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Snip

Are you fine with my latest post detailing the things that would have to be changed as a result of this downgrade, and could you tag Reiner and Planck, and ask them if they're fine with it too?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

That's pretty normal. You see Naoko Takeuchi is still the IP owner of that work, meaning an authorized translation is still under her IP and therefore copyright. For example, the official Spanish translation for Game of Thrones has this exact same thing (don't ask why I have this):


While not Japanese copyright, to quote the US legal example of this:

It's why Viz Media doesn't have the copyright to say, One Piece, despite translating it. Oda authorized the translation of his work in the US to Viz, who is then authorized to translate it and sell it to get a percentage of the profits, but because it is a derivative work, Oda owns the copyright to those translations. It's why theoretically if Oda were to sell those rights to like, Dark Horse, Viz would not be able to legally sell English translations of One Piece anymore.

So her owning the translation does not mean that she translated it herself or that the translation is correct, it's just legally all derivative works (that are official) are held by her under copyright law. The only time the disruptor owns the copyright is in a case like Warner Brothers with Harry Potter, who owns the visual media for that series but not the literary media for that series.

Fair enough then

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Like, none of this actually disputes my points. She owns the translaiton copyright because the country it was released it states that she has the copyright over derived works. Its why in Canada the translation copy just owns the English words and the law is slightly different.

'I posted an american book where the translator owns their translated words and their commentary.



Mixxed Entertainment is american.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Nobody has brought up an actual argument for why we shouldn't use the translation notes. It really just seems like "we dismiss this because we can"

And the whole debate seems overly semantical, she alone owns the volume and its contents, including the notes and English Translation. Not the company and not the translators. If there was a problem with the contents she would've intervened in the production.

The easiest conclusion is that the contents of the Volume is accepted by the Original Creator. Why is this an issue, again?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Mixxed Entertainment is american

I saw printed in Canada and went with that.

But in America the IP owner still has trademark on the work, to my understanding the most the copyright does for the translator is give them ownership over the specific wording used in their translation, but the source material is still owned by the IP owner.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Nobody has brought up an actual argument for why we shouldn't use the translation notes. It really just seems like "we dismiss this because we can"

Yeah. Rules don't allow it. That's genuinely it, lol.

Like, if you want to posit that because of the details the translation adds (which I will note again, it's debatable on its applicability anyways, so not a total slamdunk here even with that), to treat the verse as having infinite space and infinite time outside the wiki, more power to you. But to add this to our profiles, needs to conform to the rules. If the rules don't allow for it, tough luck

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I saw printed in Canada and went with that.

But in America the IP owner still has trademark on the work, to my understanding the most the copyright does for the translator is give them ownership over the specific wording used in their translation, but the source material is still owned by the IP owner.

The point of me bringing it up, is that the translation notes was being dismissed as a tertiary canon and that we couldn't use it to clarify the main canon. But the fact that, Naoko out right owns the translation, including the notes, shows that it should be considered secondary canon, like a guidebook.

You could only call this tertiary, if the commentary added was added by the editor and publisher, hence the example i provided which such a case, the addition did not belong to the original author. And I have shown that, authors don't automatically own the translation or the edition being published (but they still own the work, and obviously some licensing thing goes on in the background). This has been true for Naoki's previous English works. This is not the case for the eternal edition. Naoko owns these translation notes out right in the same legal way she owns the actually story.

And the page you posted here: https://copyright.uslegal.com/enumerated-categories-of-copyrightable-works/translation/

clearly states the author, is the one who authorizes the translation. Naoko owns the translation notes, so that means we can clearly say she authorized their creation and publishing. It was not something authorized by the editor or publishing company. They're not just random commentary of a third party. There is a direct involvement. And that ownership should be proof enough.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

The point of me bringing it up, is that the translation notes was being dismissed as a tertiary canon and that we couldn't use it to clarify the main canon. But the fact that, Naoko out right owns the translation, including the notes, shows that it should be considered secondary canon, like a guidebook.

You could only call this tertiary, if the commentary added was added by the editor and publisher, hence the example i provided which such a case, the addition did not belong to the original author. And I have shown that, authors don't automatically own the translation or the edition being published (but they still own the work, and obviously some licensing thing goes on in the background). This has been true for Naoki's previous English works. This is not the case for the eternal edition. Naoko owns these translation notes out right in the same legal way she owns the actually story.

And the page you posted here: https://copyright.uslegal.com/enumerated-categories-of-copyrightable-works/translation/

clearly states the author, is the one who authorizes the translation. Naoko owns the translation notes, so that means we can clearly say she authorized their creation and publishing. It was not something authorized by the editor or publishing company. They're not just random commentary of a third party. There is a direct involvement. And that ownership should be proof enough.

Keep in mind, I called it tertiary as it's not the original work (that would be the straight japanese version), and didn't fit as secondary because it wasn't an addition coming from a guidebook or an additional line coming from an anime series, yet was still official. Among those options, I figured the direct equivalent would be tertiary.

Even if you want to not treat it as literally tertiary for our rules, the original issues Armor brought would apply anyways.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Like, if you want to posit that because of the details the translation adds (which I will note again, it's debatable on its applicability anyways, so not a total slamdunk here even with that), to treat the verse as having infinite space and infinite time outside the wiki, more power to you. But to add this to our profiles, needs to conform to the rules. If the rules don't allow for it, tough luck

Keep in mind, I called it tertiary as it's not the original work (that would be the straight japanese version), and didn't fit as secondary because it wasn't an addition coming from a guidebook or an additional line coming from an anime series, yet was still official. Among those options, I figured the direct equivalent would be tertiary.

The rules have no precedent here if we are being honest. What is the difference between a guidebook, put together by the editors and publishing company and slapped with the Author's approval via trademark, and the translation notes? Its' almost the same thing. Why would Naoko outright owning these words not be proof enough of their legitimacy? Guidebooks are created to give clarity and expansion on the series. This is the same purpose as the translation notes.

Allowing guidebooks but not these notes is arbitrary.

 

[Reiner04]

I think this particular case should warrant a staff thread imo. What happens when a translation is directly confirmed as being copyrighted by the og creator of the work.

What do you think? @Armorchompy

I can see the opposition's point here. We don't currently have a clear rule or guideline regarding official translations that expand on the original material without contradicting it. At the end of the day, these sources are official, if they were overseen or authorized by the author, then ig a strong arguement can be made.

Regardless of the conclusion of this thread i think a section is needed to deal with this case since currently as it is, i think its pretty much acceptable isn't it?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I can see the opposition's point here. We don't currently have a clear rule or guideline regarding official translations that expand on the original material without contradicting it. At the end of the day, these sources are official, if they were overseen or authorized by the author, then ig a strong arguement can be made.

Regardless of the conclusion of this thread i think a section is needed to deal with this case since currently as it is, i think its pretty much acceptable isn't it?

I agree with that, but seeing as my fellow staff don't seem to agree, meh

 

[Reiner04]

I agree with that, but seeing as my fellow staff don't seem to agree, meh

Never fear to speak your mind. At worst, we lose a few charisma points, but who cares?

Anyways, idk what should be done here then, given our standard currently, TL notes are pretty much acceptable if official, unless i missed something.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Never fear to speak your mind. At worst, we lose a few charisma points, but who cares?

Anyways, idk what should be done here then, given our standard currently, TL notes are pretty much acceptable if official, unless i missed something.

Read the thread bucko, my agreement with the thread is exclusively hinging on our standards, which I've had now 2 staff giving me some sort of clarification opposing what I believed initially, what I personally believe is we should indeed make use of any official statement as long as they don't contradict established things

Armor currently disagrees with that, and seemingly also Qawsedf. So seems the staff thread should be done after all.

 

[TiltedFN]

Never fear to speak your mind. At worst, we lose a few charisma points, but who cares?

Anyways, idk what should be done here then, given our standard currently, TL notes are pretty much acceptable if official, unless i missed something.

Well, as it's already been pointed out, the translation note isn't relevant anyway since the cosmos isn't actually a static cosmos currently. As profectus provided, the translation says, "turn into", not "restore". Something Planck and Vietthai actually agreed with already.

Regardless on what the consensus is, the universe is not infinite and the changes Profectus proposed will still have to be looked over.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Well, as it's already been pointed out, the translation note isn't relevant anyway since the cosmos isn't actually a static cosmos currently. As profectus provided, the translation says, "turn into", not "restore". Something Planck and Vietthai actually agreed with already.

Regardless on what the consensus is, the universe is not infinite and the changes Profectus proposed will still have to be looked over.

Lets let the staff first clear up the TL issue before throwing around arguments.

And lephyr agreed with my explanation, and you're leaving out the other scan that uses restore as a translation. So it's not a done deal

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Well, as it's already been pointed out, the translation note isn't relevant anyway since the cosmos isn't actually a static cosmos currently. As profectus provided, the translation say, "turn into", not "restore". Something Planck and Vietthai actually agreed with already.

Regardless on what the consensus is, the universe is not infinite and the changes Profectus proposed will still have to be looked over.

Without the standards shenanigans, it's actually 2-1, as I agreed more with Iam, actually. So would need at least an extra vote if we determine the standards currently wouldn't disallow the usage of translations providing extra info.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Lets let the staff first clear up the TL issue before throwing around arguments.

I don't see the point in it. Make a staff thread, but as of now I don't see it as being official material.

actually 2-1, as I agreed more with Iam, actually. So would need at least an extra vote if we determine the standards currently wouldn't disallow the usage of translations providing extra

Unless the franchise is big, 2 Admin votes are enough. But I guess we can wait temporarily for someone else.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I don't see the point in it. Make a staff thread, but as of now I don't see it as being official material.



Unless the franchise is big, 2 Admin votes are enough. But I guess we can wait temporarily for someone else.

One admin, one thread mod in favor; 1 admin against

Edit: Unless of course, you are giving your approval through this comment

 

[TiltedFN]

Lets let the staff first clear up the TL issue before throwing around arguments.

We've been throwing around arguments for multiple pages at this point.
The the translator note is but one of many things that have been discussed and countered in this thread.
So yes, it really does need to be discussed because your argument hinges on it heavily.

And lephyr agreed with my explanation, and you're leaving out the other scan that uses restore as a translation. So it's not a done deal

No we didn't leave it out, have you just been ignoring everything that's been said in this thread?
We already told you how using two different translations is I'll advised because they can say two different things that change context.
And it's no different in this case. You've done this before on previous threads which has also lead to issues.
"Restore" and "turn into" are two different things, but in some way are adjacent.
Here's the difference though, "restore" doesn't actually matter because we don't care what previously was, only is. That's the point after all.
So despite either translation you use, the cosmos currently is NOT static, therefore, it is not infinite.
This breaks your entire argument because there is nothing infinite to be had here.
So no matter what the consensus is on the TL note, your cosmology still doesn't qualify on the basis that it isn't that thing right now.

Yeah, ngl here, the side against the Infinite Universe Sailor Moon makes more sense here to me. The translator's note literally said it is Lambda - Einstein’s cosmological constant. You can't somehow both use it and then discard it at the same time, pick the spatial infinity part but disregard the Einstein’s cosmological constant part. This is literally the practice of using what benefit you while discard what do not benefit you.

Also please pick 1 translation; you are using two translations at the same time and there is a huge discrepancy between those two scans

In fact, you we're already told to pick a single translation, why are you arguing still arguing both?
You aren't listening to the arguments, you need to start addressing some stuff here. Don't do the same thing you did before which causes more confusion. It's easy to just use one.

• You can't use both translations, only one.
• Profectus got a more accurate translation by a Wiki helper, so that one can be used.
• The TL note regardless doesn't help you either way, so there's no use stretching it out unless it's relevant.
• Absolutely nothing changes here.

 

[SailorRanger64]

I don't see the point in it. Make a staff thread, but as of now I don't see it as being official material.



Unless the franchise is big, 2 Admin votes are enough. But I guess we can wait temporarily for someone else.

I don't wanna come of as rude, but Sailor Moon isn't considered big enough?

 

[RoninSlayer200]

I don't wanna come of as rude, but Sailor Moon isn't considered big enough?

I mean, it's extremely unpopular in powerscaling and in this forum, not about the franchise's general popularity. Also it is not on this list

 

[Qawsedf234]

I don't wanna come of as rude, but Sailor Moon isn't considered big enough?

IRL vs on site are different things. Sailor Moon isn't on the big franchise list I think.

 

[TiltedFN]

IRL vs on site are different things. Sailor Moon isn't on the big franchise list I think.

Just to clarify, were you including yourself in the 2 admin votes you mentioned?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Just to clarify, were you including yourself in the 2 admin votes you mentioned?

Edit: Unless of course, you are giving your approval through this comment

Yeah, I agree with the OP for the downgrade. If Iam wants to make a staff thread for the comments they can however.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Then I'll make the staff thread.

 

[TiltedFN]

Yeah, I agree with the OP for the downgrade. If Iam wants to make a staff thread for the comments they can however.

Well just so we are clear, the staff thread doesn't change anything here, as we have pointed out multiple times. And on the basis of having enough staff agree with the downgrade.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Yeah, I agree with the OP for the downgrade. If Iam wants to make a staff thread for the comments they can however.

Fair enough.

Now then, while the staff thread gets cooking, I would like to advance with the other stuff so as to not waste even more time later on, so my thoughts on Profectus' stuff, focusing on the corridor stuff first:

"Size..." your own scan here, as well as the ones in the blog that even include raw text, determine that the statement was "no concept of distance or direction," don't editorialize the scans. Ultima_Reality mentioned this a while ago, so I will never stop bringing it up, but the rift isn't even transcendent of time, as it's consistently characterized as a feature of space-time, being stated to exist between times among the other anti-feats he mentioned.

I disagree with the chain of logic that "no concept of distance or direction" indicates an unknowingly large number. The only default conclusion you can draw from the realm lacking aspects of measurement like that, is that size is undefined since elements of it are inapplicable. So, I think the number of dimensions should just be the number shown to exist without any extrapolation.




There's nothing here that axiomatically suggests that the number of routes is some kind of 'incalculably' large value like the tone here suggests.

Before anything else, you use the term "alternate universe" when your own scan as well as the raws only say alternate dimension (again with the random editorializing). Same goes for the "Shadow of the New Moon" tidbit, your own scan calls it an alternate dimension, not an alternate universe. I don't see how "routes" are automatically different dimensions (much less universes) anyways when they can lead to different points in time.

Anyways, it is never stated that there are "so many interdimensional routes, they can't check them all." They confirm that they can't check the interdimensional routes plural, yes, but this inability is not attributed to some kind of sheer/overwhelming quantity or some other element, you're just assuming.

As a matter of fact, knowing how Japanese tends to avoid direct plurals, your translation: "The only other possible routes are the interdimensional ones, and we can't possibly check all of them" is realistically just as valid as "All that remains is the route through a different dimension, which is impossible to confirm." Although I got that last translation from an MTL, I sent the context to a wiki translation helper, a Japanese speaker with a bachelor's in the langauge, and a native speaker, and the former 2 said that it was ambiguous whether route is singular or plural, while the latter said it was singular in context and gave a brief explanation as to why.

So yeah, I don't think any extrapolation is necessary. The corridor should only encompass the spatial extent it is explicitly proven to encompass.

I don't think you two disagree on the base premise, but more so on the idea of extrapolation and the"it's likely higher than what we see, but honestly unknown" (which Iam posits should be taken as a "higher but unquantifiable"). Overall, I also dislike relying on extrapolation, so limiting us to just what's clearly presented is fine.

I shall await what stuff Iam brings for the graveyard thingy, but as I also said earlier, currently the blog saying it's infinite is not supported after the current conclusions, so it, indeed, has to go.

 

[Qawsedf234]

, the staff thread doesn't change anything here, as we have pointed out multiple times.

It doesn't, but it's still something important to ask about for possible future reference.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Secondary Canon Clarification: Official Translator Notes

In a recent, thread, there was a debate as if translation notes included in an official medium could be considered as secondary canon, ala a databook. I was given permission to make this thread. The Translation notes in question, are notes written to give context to the meaning of words...

vsbattles.com

I will post about the graveyard shortly.

 

[Hasty12345]

I don't wanna come of as rude, but Sailor Moon isn't considered big enough?

It’s a good thing on this site, means less staff are required for CRTs.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

So despite either translation you use, the cosmos currently is NOT static, therefore, it is not infinite.

Before I get into this, I just want to get into this for a bit, and state that this is demonstrably false. Sailor Moon universe doesn't have a big bang as matter and its creation is done by the Galaxy Cauldron which sends out star seeds which become stars and planets across the cosmos.

If you want to argue that the universe isn't infinite, fine, but you need more evidence to claim it's not static.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The graveyard I think will now have a significant change:

Essentially during the last arc, while traveling to Galaxia's Palace, the cast enter Sagittarius Alpha Star, which is like a pocket dimension at the center of the milky way. One of its locations is the Graveyard of dead stars.



Essentially, whenever a person, planet, star etc. dies, it gets a grave in this graveyard, and from the grave, a butterfly representing the dying soul, emerges from the grave and joins an endless procession. And I want to be clear, before someone pulls the "galaxy only" argument, the first introduction states these are dead beings from across the cosmos, which would include the alternate universes as well.

Because the procession is endless and the butterflies are dying embers, meaning they will disappear, there has to be an unending supply of dead things to keep the procession going forever. And because the butterflies emerge from the graves, there must be an endless amount of graves as well. The Sailor Moon Cosmos Movie Visual Book also doubly confirms grave as having uncountable/innumerable number of graves. (hope this counts as its a confirmation, not a modification or even clarification).

Whether the universe is infinite or not, the graveyard itself would have to be infinite to hold this never ending amount of graves. And there is an argument to be made, that a finite universes, couldn't hold a never ending amount of stars and planets from which this funeral procession is supplied from.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Once again, I will wait for the opposition before making an official vote.

 

[Killerdrone123]

The graveyard I think will now have a significant change:

Essentially during the last arc, while traveling to Galaxia's Palace, the cast enter Sagittarius Alpha Star, which is like a pocket dimension at the center of the milky way. One of its locations is the Graveyard of dead stars.



Essentially, whenever a person, planet, star etc. dies, it gets a grave in this graveyard, and from the grave, a butterfly representing the dying soul, emerges from the grave and joins an endless procession. And I want to be clear, before someone pulls the "galaxy only" argument, the first introduction states these are dead beings from across the cosmos, which would include the alternate universes as well.

Because the procession is endless and the butterflies are dying embers, meaning they will disappear, there has to be an unending supply of dead things to keep the procession going forever. And because the butterflies emerge from the graves, there must be an endless amount of graves as well. The Sailor Moon Cosmos Movie Visual Book also doubly confirms grave as having uncountable/innumerable number of graves. (hope this counts as its a confirmation, not a modification or even clarification).

Whether the universe is infinite or not, the graveyard itself would have to be infinite to hold this never ending amount of graves. And there is an argument to be made, that a finite universes, couldn't hold a never ending amount of stars and planets from which this funeral procession is supplied from.

An endless procession does not mean the place itself is infinite. It only describes a continuous or repeating process, not the size of the location. A procession can be endless because things keep dying and new creations continue to appear and eventually reach the end of their lives. This says nothing about the spatial size of the area.Similarly uncountable/innumerable graves doesn't mean infinite it can just mean there are large number of graves not infinite

The argument also contradicts itself by claiming the graves come from other dimensions. That would make this a graveyard that collects graves from multiple dimensions, which only increases the total number present. However, a large number of graves especially when sourced from different dimensions does not prove that the universe is infinite, nor that the graveyard itself is infinite.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

An endless procession does not mean the place itself is infinite. It only describes a continuous or repeating process, not the size of the location. A procession can be endless because things keep dying and new creations continue to appear and eventually reach the end of their lives. This says nothing about the spatial size of the area.Similarly uncountable/innumerable graves doesn't mean infinite it can just mean there are large number of graves not infinite

The argument isn't the procession makes the place infinite. If the butterflies that fuel the process emerge from the graves, then the graves must be endless. THe graves are a permanent feature in the landscape and the butterflies are not.

The argument also contradicts itself by claiming the graves come from other dimensions. That would make this a graveyard that collects graves from multiple dimensions, which only increases the total number present. However, a large number of graves especially when sourced from different dimensions does not prove that the universe is infinite, nor that the graveyard itself is infinite.

This is not a contradiction. multiple finite spaces is still finite. For there to be an endless amount of cosmological objects, there needs to be endless amount of space to hold them.

 

[Mbpoops]

what was this thread suppossed to change again? kinda just turned into a staff discussion lol

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

The graveyard I think will now have a significant change:

Essentially during the last arc, while traveling to Galaxia's Palace, the cast enter Sagittarius Alpha Star, which is like a pocket dimension at the center of the milky way. One of its locations is the Graveyard of dead stars.

"Which is like a pocket dimension"

I would prefer to see strong evidence that it's a separate dimension (rather than just an assumption with no statements to back it in the scans provided) after considering how your proposal results in infinitely large galaxy, and also considering how Sagittarius Alpha Star is a reference to Sagittarius A, a well-known astronomical body that's just a black hole at the center of the Milky Way Galaxy. The scans explicitly show that the center of the galaxy where the graveyard is within is a finite region of light.

Essentially, whenever a person, planet, star etc. dies, it gets a grave in this graveyard, and from the grave, a butterfly representing the dying soul, emerges from the grave and joins an endless procession. And I want to be clear, before someone pulls the "galaxy only" argument, the first introduction states these are dead beings from across the cosmos, which would include the alternate universes as well.

First off, "cosmos" under a basic generous interpretation should only encompass the entire universe, so I have no clue where "it would include the alternate universes" came from.

And secondly, we once again run into the issue of Sailor Moon english translations being unreliable.

• "This is the final destination, where fragments of dead stars and planets come to rest after drifting across the cosmos."

The raw text does not contain the "across the cosmos" part, which is consistent with the translation I received from a Japanese speaker.

Because the procession is endless and the butterflies are dying embers, meaning they will disappear, there has to be an unending supply of dead things to keep the procession going forever. And because the butterflies emerge from the graves, there must be an endless amount of graves as well.

Even granting this argument the most leeway possible, this would just mean that the graveyard is infinitely-expanding, which to my knowledge, we don't grant a quantifiable tier to, for values involving universe size on this wiki.

The Sailor Moon Cosmos Movie Visual Book also doubly confirms grave as having uncountable/innumerable number of graves. (hope this counts as its a confirmation, not a modification or even clarification).

The term used was 無数 (Musu), which isn't the same as 無限 (Mugen). According to this dictionary blog, the latter indicates direct infinity while the former indicates a value to large for someone to count (countless/innumerable). The answers from this Q&A post also indicate that Mugen is literal infinity, while Musu is a very casual term used to describe a large, often finite value. I don't doubt that there are cases where it can indicate literal infinity (same with countless/innumerable in English), but that's clearly not the default assumption.

Also, point me to the CRT where Sailor Moon Crystal was accepted as canon on this wiki.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Even granting this argument the most leeway possible, this would just mean that the graveyard is infinitely-expanding, which to my knowledge, we don't grant a quantifiable tier to, for values involving universe size on this wiki.

It would be notable enough to add to the blog, even if not technically having a particular tiering, and can be used on Versus Threads specifically.