Sailor Moon AP Upgrade: Low 1-C

[Vietthai96]

Thank you for agreeing with me Viett. Also, we see the future after the 3rd arc and they are still missing.

What future? Some glimpse of it where it was extremely minor and not even the point of the entire arc?. Absence of evidence isn't always the evidence itself

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

What future? Some glimpse of it where it was extremely minor and not even the point of the entire arc?

Viet post evidence that they exist in future or stop derailing.

I posted a literal scan where Sailor Saturn says that Hotaru was supposed to die and never awaken, but events went of course.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Chibi usa was erased because her star seed, which is a type 1 concept, is dependent on the existence of her dad's star seed. It's not simply a matter of just causality as per conceptual manipulation page: "Each concept is linked with its respective "object". In this way, altering the concept will change every object linked to it in the same way the concept itself was changed."

No that's just a copout. Every concept is linked with its respective object. For Kamen, that's his starseed, for Chibi Usa, that's her starseed. There's no such thing as Chibi Usa's starseed being dependent on Kamen, that's something you just made up to explain away that which is a very clear-cut causal link between father and child. Starseeds are made individually.

She was fine when he died in the past. Him dying in the past means that he wouldn't have her in the future, so the timeline would have to erase her at that moment, but it didn't. Her father in the future then later began to disappear but that didn't affect her.

Right, because he wasn't fundamentally erased at that time, but despite that this argument shoots you in the foot. The fact that Kamen began to disappear in the future already proves that this is a time paradox, the fact that Chibi Usa didn't also start disappearing is most likely because he was being erased in the future after Chibi Usa was already conceived. HOWEVER, when he gets erased along with his starseed, the fact that this is a more fundamental erasure implies that every version of him across the timeline even leading up to the moment of Chibi Usa's conception (and not just the versions after) would also be erased, thereby preventing her conception and erasing her as well. The starseeds grant them a form of acausality clearly, but once that gets destroyed a normal causal chain follows as all versions of Kamen across time will be erased, even those before Chibi Usa's conception. This is what you don't get. This is what defeats your entire argument.

This isn't a Back to the Future scenario, because she was only erased, but all the things that she caused still remained. The present timeline didn't change. Sailor Moon's Eternal Transformation required her, Sailor Moon's Super Transformation required her.

If Tuxedo mask star seed erasure, caused her to be erased because his erasure means she would never be born, then that would extremely change the entire timeline. It would rewrite everything.

That's not how fiction treats these thing. It doesn't always show everything change even right down to overturning the stone that this erased person would've overturned initially. The fact that Kamen's starseed's erasure erases him across time right up until the moment Chibi Usa is conceived, but this doesn't happen when only his body is erased, proves that this is a normal timeline and that the starseed is the only thing granting the characters an extra layer of protection due to being a fundamental aspect. This isn't complicated.

It would have to be that the entire future is acausal, not just a few characters.

The relevant ones are. Also the fact that everything and their dogs seem to have starseeds already proves that

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I'm aware this is the case. I'm saying that Tuxedo vanishing clearly causes future Chibi to vanish, thus demonstrating that his present flows to the future where he conceived her and then to the future where she traveled back through time, this demonstrating that each of those points in time is directly caused by the previous one, its past. That indicates one timeline, not multiple.

another thing I want to mention:



The Amazoness Quartet time traveled with Chibi-Usa. Yet were unaffected by her erasure:



Considering their existence in the past is causally dependent on Chibi-Usa, this is not a case of simple causality. This has to do with the effects of conceptual manipulation and reality warping, not just timeywimey stuff.

Right, because he wasn't fundamentally erased at that time, but despite that this argument shoots you in the foot. The fact that Kamen began to disappear in the future already proves that this is a time paradox, the fact that Chibi Usa didn't also start disappearing is most likely because he was being erased in the future after Chibi Usa was already conceived. HOWEVER, when he gets erased along with his starseed, the fact that this is a more fundamental erasure implies that every version of him across the timeline even leading up to the moment of Chibi Usa's conception (and not just the versions after) would also be erased, thereby preventing her conception and erasing her as well. The starseeds grant them a form of acausality clearly, but once that gets destroyed a normal causal chain follows as all versions of Kamen across time will be erased, even those before Chibi Usa's conception. This is what you don't get. This is what defeats your entire argument.

This doesn't defeat my entire argument. In fact, it's just another strawman and non-sequitur.

The argument is that the future and past are separate time dimensions serviced by a higher timeline. If the cauldron deletes things from all of reality, it would also delete Tuxedo Kamen from each time dimension and across the higher timeline. If Chibi-usa's father is deleted from her time dimension, then she would be erased. My argument still stands intact.

This has become stonewalling now.

You have yet to disprove any of these facts:

1. The story calls the different time periods, dimensions.
2. The story states the time periods are physically separated by timeless rifts and spacetime voids
3. The time dimensions have differing local history and major changes, like how Sailor Moon gets the Holy Grail, or the awakening of Sailor Saturn.

In order to claim there is a single continuous timeline, and not separate time dimensions in a higher timeline, you need to disprove all three. You haven't disproved any.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Okay, let's try to focus on these core things from here.

1. The story calls the different time periods, dimensions.

It seemed there was some discussion about the wording used, so this warrants discussion. When it all hangs on different translations with different wording and we need to know which is accurate that's usually when the raws come out.

2. The story states the time periods are physically separated by timeless rifts and spacetime voids

Same as above.

3. The time dimensions have differing local history and major changes, like how Sailor Moon gets the Holy Grail, or the awakening of Sailor Saturn.

This could be explained by certain acausality or by two timelines without a hypertimeline, but this still warrants talking about.

From what Viet said it seems Saturn's presence or absence in the future isn't confirmed or denied. If true that part at least isn't telling us much.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

It seemed there was some discussion about the wording used, so this warrants discussion. When it all hangs on different translations with different wording and we need to know which is accurate that's usually when the raws come out.

I've only used one translation for this crt, and it translates jigen (次元) from the raws as dimension, through out the entire series. This is an official translation.



Jigen is translated as dimension here:

Jisho.org: Japanese Dictionary

jisho.org

次元 - Wikipedia

ja.wikipedia.org

What does 次元 (Jigen) mean in Japanese?

English words for 次元 include dimension and dimensionality. Find more Japanese words at wordhippo.com!

www.wordhippo.com

How to say 'Dimension' in Japanese | 次元

The Japanese Word 次元 means 'Dimension'. Learn all its meanings, readings and kanji with a detailed explanation, example sentences and an interactive lesson on NihongoClassroom.

nihongoclassroom.com

Same as above.

Also same as the above



The same phrase is used:

時間と時間の狭間

With 時間 meaning time

and 狭間 meaning space, interval, gap, gorge

狭間 - Jisho.org

jisho.org

狭間 - Wikipedia

ja.wikipedia.org

WordHippo

'狭間' in English

www.wordhippo.com

This could be explained by certain acausality or by two timelines without a hypertimeline, but this still warrants talking about.

The point of a hypertimeline is that a single snapshot shows the entire timeline. And when you go forward and backwards throughout the hypertimeline, you can see how the entire timeline changed overall. Each snapshot will be a different version of the entire timeline. Even with acausality and two timelines, a hypertimeline will exist by necessity.

Snapshot one:
Original Past -> Original Future

Snapshot two:
Original Past -> Chibi-usa time travels back and forth to the past -> new present
Original Past -> Original Future -> sailor moon travels back and forth to the future -> new future

snapshot three:
Original Past -> Chibi-usa time travels back and forth to the past -> new present -> Galaxia messes with the star seeds
Original Past -> Original Future -> sailor moon travels back and forth to the future -> new future

snapshot four:
Original Past -> Chibi-usa time travels back and forth to the past -> new present -> Galaxia messes with the star seeds -> people/futures get erased
Original Past -> Original Future -> sailor moon travels back and forth to the future -> new future -> erased

snapshot five:
Original Past -> Chibi-usa time travels back and forth to the past -> new present -> Galaxia messes with the star seeds -> people/futures get erased -> Sailor Moon restores everything

snapshot six:
Original Past -> Chibi-usa time travels back and forth to the past -> new present -> Galaxia messes with the star seeds -> people/futures get erased -> Sailor Moon restores everything -> current present
Original Past -> Original Future -> sailor moon travels back and forth to the future -> new future -> erased -> restored -> chibiusa returns permanently to her future


Regardless of whether you apply acausality and or two timelines, a hypertimeline still exists by necessity. Because there are both differing local histories, and overaching history changes, resulting in multiple versions of the same history.

In this case, we have evidence these timelines, are their own dimensions, and are embedded in a spacetime.

From what Viet said it seems Saturn's presence or absence in the future isn't confirmed or denied. If true that part at least isn't telling us much.

The scan I posted has Saturn clearly state that what was supposed to happen was Hotaru was to die in the accident and never awaken, but events shifted and the timeline changed. Yes, of course, Naoko only came up with the outer senshi in arc three. But she provided an in-universe reason why we don't see them in the future.

 

[TiltedFN]

This doesn't defeat my entire argument. In fact, it's just another strawman and non-sequitur.

It isn't either of those since you have yet to give proper evidence.
It'd only be a strawman if you didn't have a dozen scans going against your claims.
Do you know what a non-sequitur is?
No, seriously. All the conclusions being formed from our side has directly followed what the claim was; that being that the past, present, and future are not separate time dimensions.
Along with the fact that there's still only a single timeline with a classic case of a Grandfathers Paradox.
You need to stop trying claim logical fallacies over and over again just because you don't like the implications.

The argument is that the future and past are separate time dimensions serviced by a higher timeline.

Which directly gets debunked by many scans.
It's just a regular singular timeline and nothing more.
All you have done so far is argue the kanji without looking at what your series tells you multiple times.
Do I even have to bring up some of the mistranslations that have been used as well that directly contradict your argument while at the same time proving ours?
Literally talking about going back in time and changing history
SM meeting her future self and changing history. Along with them not being able to be in the same time period.
I mean come on, this literally screams time paradox of any sort.
This has never once given the vibe of them being different spacetime continuums with their own separate time dimensions not once.
You look at something like this and think of a class case of complicated time slop just like other countless series have done.
And this all hinges on the argument..of arguing Kanji?
Yeah no, this ain't enough chief, especially when arguing a hypertimeline.
You already know this, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That's just how it is.

If the cauldron deletes things from all of reality, it would also delete Tuxedo Kamen from each time dimension and across the higher timeline.

What higher timeline?
You can't just act like this somehow helps your argument by claiming there's a hypertimeline that doesn't exist.
The point is that all evidence goes against you, and you haven't given sufficient proof that this hypertimeline with uncountably infinite snapshots even exist.
Wait a second, didn't you even claim there wasn't that many snapshots across the timeline in this thread? If that's the case, then you aren't even arguing a hypertimeline at all and your argument is dead.
The logic you're going for here is trying to counter said defeater by saying it's not a contradiction using the end result of your argument..which is still being argued in the first place.
Huh?
That doesn't make sense since you have directly contradicted your OWN argument multiple times and have given insuffiecient proof for every single claim you made while not giving any feeling that it can be interpreted as just as valid as the other.
You're shooting yourself in he foot here.

Where did I claim that?

You said that Iam. That is what you are directly claiming by trying to argue a hypertimeline.
So if you aren't arguing that, what are you arguing?
You didn't prove the "transcends space and time" argument. So you have no proof of some sort of 4th spatial dimension argument.
Now you're stuck on this time paradox thing trying to prove it's not when you already claimed you aren't arguing a hypertimeline?
I seriously don't get what the point is here.
You already admitted you can't directly prove this 4th spatial axis which you haven't proved exist yet has a significant size.

If Chibi-usa's father is deleted from her time dimension, then she would be erased. My argument still stands intact.

Address the original arguments.
Arguing it can work with separate time dimensions doesn't mean there actually is.
This is a classic "well if it DID exist, it wouldn't contradict anything"
But here's the thing..where does it exist? You haven't shown that.

This has become stonewalling now.

Stonewalling? You mean the opposition pressing you on your claims and you basically just giving up when presented with an argument?
That isn't stonewalling.
Supporters aren't just going to let you say anything you want and declare yourself right without any pushback. That isn't how debates work.
At the very least, that isn't how this debate will go.

You have yet to disprove any of these facts:

1. The story calls the different time periods, dimensions.

Which is debunked by like a dozen scans.

2. The story states the time periods are physically separated by timeless rifts and spacetime voids

Which was brought up can easily refer to the corridor.
Why does a rift existing mean separate spacetimes for the past, present, and future (which doesn't even make sense since they can still lead to different points in time. that's what a rift is)
Not to mention, this rift doesn't give any indication that it's supposed to be some rift between separate time dimensions like you're claiming.
It's literally referenced as some timeless void that they can get lost and wander in.
"Void of spacetime"
"Timeless rift"
"Rift between times"
"Farthest reaches of spacetime"
"Edge of spacetime"
"Another space"
I mean come on, what does this have to do with the past, present, and future being separate spacetimes?
This is crazy extrapolation for something that is described in a multitude of ways.

3. The time dimensions have differing local history and major changes, like how Sailor Moon gets the Holy Grail, or the awakening of Sailor Saturn.

They don't.
Whatever the case may be, you still haven't proven there is a hypertimeline that actually exist here at all.
Absolutely none of what you typed needs a hypertimeline, which you indirectly claimed doesn't exist.
As killer pointed out:

HOWEVER, when he gets erased along with his starseed, the fact that this is a more fundamental erasure implies that every version of him across the timeline even leading up to the moment of Chibi Usa's conception (and not just the versions after) would also be erased, thereby preventing her conception and erasing her as well. The starseeds grant them a form of acausality clearly, but once that gets destroyed a normal causal chain follows as all versions of Kamen across time will be erased, even those before Chibi Usa's conception.

This defeats your entire argument completely.
Classic grandfathers paradox
Once the seed is destroyed it just follows normal timeline logic with all versions of Kamen being erased.
And as I pointed out earlier, you still haven't given sufficient evidence for any of what your argument needs to stand on.
You tried to refute a contradiction and took that as positive evidence when that is absolutely not how that works.
What you're essentially doing is burden shifting at every chance you get and avoiding giving positive evidence or sufficient counter arguments besides "yeah you're just wrong, admit it"
You can't claim we are committing logical fallacies when that's all you've been doing the entire time along with extreme extrapolation.

So from what I've seen.
We've seen characters such as Kamen get their star seed destroyed, his daughter Chibi-usa was erased across history.
And this applies to other Sailor Guardians so that's just more proof rather than separate spacetimes for the future.
Star seeds give limited resistance to causality manip so that explains the cases of characters being unaffected at times.
Along with acausality slop which is why he can follow normal causality after the seed was gone.


Iam I hope you realizes this sort of destroys your argument.
You didn't even respond to all of Killers comment going into the mechanics of starseeds and how they aren't actually linked.
Chibi's star seed is not dependent on Kamen's.

I think Vietthai already touched up upon the Sailor Saturn stuff, so I'll just talk about the Holy Grail.

First of all, who says they are different?
You mentioned that it was originally created into an art project and then transformed into the real thing.
So?
Why can't that just be how it happened in the past?
IUnless we are told how Neo Queen Serenity got it in the past, then that's just the way events unfolded.
I mean seriously, they look identical.
This isn't some kind of contradiction for there being one timeline, nor is it proof for there being multiple time dimensions.
So this is completely moot. So actually, we can forget about the whole multiple timelines thing. Not even that holds up.

In order to claim there is a single continuous timeline, and not separate time dimensions in a higher timeline, you need to disprove all three. You haven't disproved any.

All three have been disprove even though you didn't give positive evidence a single time and tried to use the disproval of a contradiction to try and prove your claim.

The point of a hypertimeline is that a single snapshot shows the entire timeline. And when you go forward and backwards throughout the hypertimeline, you can see how the entire timeline changed overall. Each snapshot will be a different version of the entire timeline. Even with acausality and two timelines, a hypertimeline will exist by necessity.

"a hypertimeline will exist by necessity"

You haven't given the reason why it HAS to exist.
Is it the rifts? If so, umm no? Rifts existing doesn't mean past, present, and future are somehow separate dimensions with their time axis as I've explained. You can't extrapolate that without concrete evidence. There is none.
Also, for the sake of argument, multiple timelines existing doesn't mean they have to share some kind of higher time axis to somehow both be effected by changes in history.
A "casual link" =/= hypertimeline.
There is no overarching flow here.
Just like the SM takes it's own approach on time paradoxes, it also does on time travel slop and how it affects different realities (not saying there are any but even if there were it doesn't prove Low 1-C anything. And I'm not leaving out the fact that you completely abandoned your other claims for it while simultaneously disproving your own argument)

Snapshot one:
Original Past -> Original Future

Snapshot two:
Original Past -> Chibi-usa time travels back and forth to the past -> new present
Original Past -> Original Future -> sailor moon travels back and forth to the future -> new future

snapshot three:
Original Past -> Chibi-usa time travels back and forth to the past -> new present -> Galaxia messes with the star seeds
Original Past -> Original Future -> sailor moon travels back and forth to the future -> new future

snapshot four:
Original Past -> Chibi-usa time travels back and forth to the past -> new present -> Galaxia messes with the star seeds -> people/futures get erased
Original Past -> Original Future -> sailor moon travels back and forth to the future -> new future -> erased

snapshot five:
Original Past -> Chibi-usa time travels back and forth to the past -> new present -> Galaxia messes with the star seeds -> people/futures get erased -> Sailor Moon restores everything

snapshot six:
Original Past -> Chibi-usa time travels back and forth to the past -> new present -> Galaxia messes with the star seeds -> people/futures get erased -> Sailor Moon restores everything -> current present
Original Past -> Original Future -> sailor moon travels back and forth to the future -> new future -> erased -> restored -> chibiusa returns permanently to her future

Your whole yap about the snapshots doesn't even make any sense.
Why are you numbering snapshots when from your own admission, there should be uncountably infinite snapshots? Which by your own admission isn't true lol.
You keep talking about new futures and new presents..when that's not actually the case? Well at least in terms of your argument assuming that the different time periods are different spacetimes.
History can be rewritten as we've seen for the millionth time.
New futures, original futures, original and new past are all results of time travel.
So sure it'll become "new" but it's actually the new original timeline.

And how would this even work anyways?
Are you saying that specific points in the future are different time dimensions? As well as the past?
Which points?
Wouldn't that also mean that these different weird snapshot dimensions aren't uncountably infinite?
You talked about having their own local history or whatever, but to what extent is the future even different dimensions here?
Is it uncountably infinite or not? If not, then you know what you have here? A weird ass Low 2-C timeline that shares a time axis, not independent time axis.

I really don't get what the plan was here for this argument.
Unless you're just following up on what new snapshots would look like if you progress across this hypothetical hypertimeline? Which, I guess?
But still, each snapshot is every infinitesimal point in time, so it's still unclear dude.
Unless you are just talking about the snapshots to where Chibi DOES use time travel, and just..nothing else? Which still doesn't make any sense and here's why:

Snapshot one:
Original Past -> Original Future

Are you trying to say that one snapshot has the past ALL the way to the future? Huh?
A snapshot is just that, a static capture of whatever the cosmology is at any given moment.
Unless you think a single snapshot of the "hypertimeline" is just past to future of whatevers contained in it, which..prove that? This whole thing makes no sense.

Snapshot two:
Original Past -> Chibi-usa time travels back and forth to the past -> new present
Original Past -> Original Future -> sailor moon travels back and forth to the future -> new future

This makes even less sense.
Sure, Chibi travels back to the past and technically creates a new present, yes and no.
Yes because the present is being influenced by the past, sure.
No, because how it works in SM is that past and future affect everything. Could be like a loop.
I've seen some media that used this sort of logic before in a general sense.
Anyways, how is this all in one snapshot? You're using it wrong and making it extremely convoluted.
This is long passed the borders of headcanon dude.
This "new future" was influenced by the past.

Regardless of whether you apply acausality and or two timelines, a hypertimeline still exists by necessity. Because there are both differing local histories, and overaching history changes, resulting in multiple versions of the same history.

Or better yet, there is no overarching history and there's only a single timeline that can be changed by time traveling!

In this case, we have evidence these timelines, are their own dimensions, and are embedded in a spacetime.

I don't remember anything being embedded in a spacetime.
I only remember a rift that acts as it's own thing independent from anything else.
Therefore, it's irrelevant.
"We" don't have anything.

 

[Da3ggman]

Can we start getting an official vote from staff now? I know a few have been like “I’m leaning” or “I’m feeling” but I want their positions to be clearer before adding them.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Can we start getting an official vote from staff now? I know a few have been like “I’m leaning” or “I’m feeling” but I want their positions to be clearer before adding them.

Vieth,reiner disagreed with the thread
Qaw also seems to disagree with low 1c
Random helper also voted leaning towards disagree

Honestly threads can be closed as there are sufficient disagrees

 

[Huesito88]

Vieth,reiner disagreed with the thread
Qaw also seems to disagree with low 1c
Random helper also voted leaning towards disagree

Honestly threads can be closed as there are sufficient disagrees

Atleast have the vote tally updated on the OP before closing

 

[Random-Helper323]

Random helper also voted leaning towards disagree

I said earlier that I had to vote disagree, but that I was open to being convinced otherwise. Currently the stated ability to change the present by changing the past including the erasure of Chibi via paradox have made it harder to agree.

The fact that the holy grails look the same is interesting. The current one was made by Usagi and Chibi and transformed into its current form. The future one looks the same. Did this future grail appear in the series before or after Usagi and Chibi made theirs?

 

[TiltedFN]

The fact that the holy grails look the same is interesting. The current one was made by Usagi and Chibi and transformed into its current form. The future one looks the same. Did this future grail appear in the series before or after Usagi and Chibi made theirs?

I'm not entirely sure, but that kind of kills the argument since events can unfold just fine by Usagi making it.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I'm not entirely sure, but that kind of kills the argument since events can unfold just fine by Usagi making it.

If it's afterwards it further supports the past flowing to the future and would suggest they're the same grail. If it's before they still could be the same since the cup transformed into that form.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Tilted you didn’t debunk anything. My original argument includes an overarching history that connects the time dimensions.

Pointing out that there is a history doesn’t negate anything I said. You are still just stonewalling and hiding behind smoke and mirrors.

You haven’t disproved that the time periods are called dimensions and you haven’t disproved that they seperated by timeless rifts.

Are they or they not called dimensions? You haven’t provided evidence that the translation or raw scans are wrong.

Are they or are they not separated?

Which was brought up can easily refer to the corridor.
Why does a rift existing mean separate spacetimes for the past, present, and future (which doesn't even make sense since they can still lead to different points in time. that's what a rift is)
Not to mention, this rift doesn't give any indication that it's supposed to be some rift between separate time dimensions like you're claiming.
It's literally referenced as some timeless void that they can get lost and wander in.
"Void of spacetime"
"Timeless rift"
"Rift between times"
"Farthest reaches of spacetime"
"Edge of spacetime"
"Another space"
I mean come on, what does this have to do with the past, present, and future being separate spacetimes?
This is crazy extrapolation for something that is described in a multitude of ways.

You have no argument but to pretend the corridor isn’t anything special.

you defeat your own self by mentioning the rift exists between times.

You refuse to actually engage with the argument because you know you have nothing to go against.

Your whole yap about the snapshots doesn't even make any sense.
Why are you numbering snapshots when from your own admission, there should be uncountably infinite snapshots? Which by your own admission isn't true lol.

We’re you expecting me to write out an infinite number of snapshots? That cannot be your argument.

Under your very own argument the timeline changes multiple times due to timeline changes.

Are you saying there are no timeline changes?

Also you conveniently didn’t address my Saturn argument because it defeats your argument entirely.

I said earlier that I had to vote disagree, but that I was open to being convinced otherwise. Currently the stated ability to change the present by changing the past including the erasure of Chibi via paradox have made it harder to agree.

Helper, I already explained that doesn’t negate my argument. The samething would be possible with a hypertimeline. And chibiusa was erased via the paradox of conceptual erasure. that’s something that’s supposed to affect all of reality, not just individual timelines.

My three main arguments haven’t been addressed at all, just hand waved away.

The fact that the holy grails look the same is interesting. The current one was made by Usagi and Chibi and transformed into its current form.

I am confused because they look different. One has wings and the other doesn’t.

Did this future grail appear in the series before or after Usagi and Chibi made theirs?

It was shown before. And chibi-usa based it off of her memory of what it looked like from the future.

I'm not entirely sure, but that kind of kills the argument since events can unfold just fine by Usagi making it.

It doesn’t kill any argument. The entire arc didn’t happen to Neo Queen Serenity.

Hotaru died in the original timeline and never awakened as Saturn, the Death busters nevr invaded earth.

This point kills the entire opposition’s argument and they refuse to engage with it because they know they have no counter for it.

 

[TiltedFN]

Again, you've given up on giving counter arguments so there's no point going on in a pointless back and forth. We clearly aren't going to agree with each other so leave it at that.
It's been over 48 hrs so this threads seems to have been firmly rejected and can be closed.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Again, you've given up on giving counter arguments so there's no point going on in a pointless back and forth. We clearly aren't going to agree with each other so leave it at that.
It's been over 48 hrs so this threads seems to have been firmly rejected and can be closed.

I did not give up on counter arguments. Address my questions:

Does the series call the time periods dimensions? Is the translation and raw scans accurate?

Does the timeline not change overtime?

Is there not a stated rift between time?

Address the fact that Saturn did not awaken in the original timeline.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Every sailor moon thread is like this. You guys post walls and walls of nonsense, and never actually address my actual arguments.

It’s become a weaponized tactic at this point. The same people over and over again.

 

[Nissa_Ushiromiya]

Every sailor moon thread is like this. You guys post walls and walls of nonsense, and never actually address my actual arguments.

It’s become a weaponized tactic at this point. The same people over and over again.

Don't take it personally, Hoyoverse is also hated a lot.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Every sailor moon thread is like this. You guys post walls and walls of nonsense, and never actually address my actual arguments.

It’s become a weaponized tactic at this point. The same people over and over again.

You never seem open to reconsidering your position or viewing the arguments from a different perspective. Different people can interpret the scans and logic in different ways, and it’s important to explain clearly why your interpretation is more consistent or coherent than the alternatives. In this thread, that hasn’t really been demonstrated. The thread has already been rejected by the majority, including the staff, and at this point, you appear to be the only one who still disagrees with that conclusion.

Also what's with this baseless accusations We are completely within our rights to question, object, and respond to the arguments you’ve presented. That’s a normal and essential part of any discussion. Disagreement or criticism shouldn’t be treated as dishonesty or bad faith, especially when people are providing reasoning and explanations for their positions.

 

[TiltedFN]

Tilted you didn’t debunk anything. My original argument includes an overarching history that connects the time dimensions.

Pointing out that there is a history doesn’t negate anything I said. You are still just stonewalling and hiding behind smoke and mirrors.

You haven’t disproved that the time periods are called dimensions and you haven’t disproved that they seperated by timeless rifts.

Are they or they not called dimensions? You haven’t provided evidence that the translation or raw scans are wrong.

Are they or are they not separated?

That means nothing. Let me tell you what you're really arguing, since apparently you have no idea and seem to have just been throwing stuff at the wall. What you're really trying to argue is that the time periods are separate space-times/universes, and they are then being serviced by a higher temporal axis that embeds them to create uncountably infinite snapshots of them giving you Low 1-C. That's your argument, please at least know what it is before you try to convince others of it. Also, you keep stating that they're separate dimensions but this doesn't matter. Dimensions aren't necessarily spatio-temporally separated, they can still share the same temporal dimension and that's what we clearly see happen with them. I don't have to "disprove" that because you never proved anything in the firsts place. All of your proof is just random scans you took out of context and tried to pass of as "proof", we gave you their actual meaning. That's all. They're not spatio-temporally separated, they're not separated space-times. That's all you need to know for the purpose of this thread.

You have no argument but to pretend the corridor isn’t anything special.

you defeat your own self by mentioning the rift exists between times.

You refuse to actually engage with the argument because you know you have nothing to go against.

This is just a non-sequitur. The corridor is just a weird dimension, that's all.

We’re you expecting me to write out an infinite number of snapshots? That cannot be your argument.

Under your very own argument the timeline changes multiple times due to timeline changes.

Are you saying there are no timeline changes?

Also you conveniently didn’t address my Saturn argument because it defeats your argument entirely.

No, the changes in time prove that they share the same space-time, which is why changes in one influence changes in the other and why characters cannot exist for too long in the other time periods and also why upon the destruction of the starseed, all of their acausality gets negated and their children die off too because they're erased across the entire time-stream leading up to the conception of the child. The saturn point is moot because her saying that Hotaru was supposed to die, doesn't mean that the future remained unchanged and she did actually die because the Outer Senshi wouldn't have been revealed in that arc anyway. Saturn is just saying what would have happened normally, she didn't say what has actually happened. This is a useless point.

Helper, I already explained that doesn’t negate my argument. The samething would be possible with a hypertimeline. And chibiusa was erased via the paradox of conceptual erasure. that’s something that’s supposed to affect all of reality, not just individual timelines.

My three main arguments haven’t been addressed at all, just hand waved away.

It might be, yeah, if you could prove that the cast could travel back to a version of the multiverse before this happens without restoring or making changes to the timeline itself. Also, this is possible in a normal timeline as well and since you don't have proof for the former or, indeed, for the hypertimeline itself, we're going to say it's a normal timeline and nothing more.

It doesn’t kill any argument. The entire arc didn’t happen to Neo Queen Serenity.

Hotaru died in the original timeline and never awakened as Saturn, the Death busters nevr invaded earth.

This point kills the entire opposition’s argument and they refuse to engage with it because they know they have no counter for it.

We countered it about 10 messages ago. Read it yourself. This is getting tiring.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

This is just a non-sequitur. The corridor is just a weird dimension, that's all.

Dude that’s not an counter argument.

the weird dimension is stated multiple times to separate time periods.

To travel from one time period to another you need to travel through it.

The corridor also separates alternate universes and you need to travel through it to reach them.

Explain how the corridor can separate universes but can’t separate time periods, despite treating both the same.

We countered it about 10 messages ago. Read it yourself. This is getting tiring.

No you didn’t. I posted a scan that literally states Hotaru was supposed to die but events shifted and caused a change in destiny.

You and no one has countered that scan.

That’s definitive proof the present dimension has a different history than the future dimension.

It might be, yeah, if you could prove that the cast could travel back to a version of the multiverse before this happens without restoring or making changes to the timeline itself. Also, this is possible in a normal timeline as well and since you don't have proof for the former or, indeed, for the hypertimeline itself, we're going to say it's a normal timeline and nothing more.

Sailor Moon restored the timeline to its original version. And the spacetime that holds the time dimensions would be the hypertimeline.

Dimensions aren't necessarily spatio-temporally separated, they can still share the same temporal dimension and that's what we clearly see happen with them

The scans literally states they have their own dimension.

Which is why I asked you if the scans and raws are accurate? Are they? If not, why? Provide evidence of inaccuracy

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The saturn point is moot because her saying that Hotaru was supposed to die, doesn't mean that the future remained unchanged and she did actually die because the Outer Senshi wouldn't have been revealed in that arc anyway. Saturn is just saying what would have happened normally, she didn't say what has actually happened. This is a useless point.

This is what happens when you don’t know the story.

Hotaru’s fsther created an explosion that was was supposed to killer and her mother.

Hotaru survived and her fsther turned her into a cyborg. She then became possessed by mistress 9, then the story plays out.

Sailor Saturn literally says, “History has been thrown off course”

Hotaru was supposed to die in the original explosion. It is because she didn’t die, that Death busters invaded earth. Saturn again states, that Hotaru’s father was the one who summoned the death busters.

 

[Random-Helper323]

It is strange that the scans referencing two of the same person both seem to reference the two of them being so close physically. Close can be interpreted a few ways, but honestly, the comment about being in the same time and space could be interpreted as just the same time and place, nothing dimensional needed. The part about being in a different dimension is definitely more notable, although same dimension at the same time is still a possible way to interpret it.

In context, the scans say that two of the same person can't exist in the same time and space, and that two of the same crystal in the same dimension interfere with each other. Both make references afterwards to proximity.

These both seem to refer to being physically close at the same time. Time and space in context seems to refer to them occupying the same place and time, rather than proof of two separate timelines. The part about dimensions is more interesting, but in context it's talking about two of the same crystal resonating at the same time and interfering with each other, which still sounds like it could refer to the same time again.

 

[TiltedFN]

It is strange that the scans referencing two of the same person both seem to reference the two of them being so close physically. Close can be interpreted a few ways, but honestly, the comment about being in the same time and space could be interpreted as just the same time and place, nothing dimensional needed. The part about being in a different dimension is definitely more notable, although same dimension at the same time is still a possible way to interpret it.

Well regardless, this should be enough to be closed right?
Yourself, Reiner, Viet disagree with the thread. Not to mention Qawsedf who seemed unconvinced as well and even admitted he wasn't seeing the argument even after going on a bit of a back and forth with Iam.
I don't see much reason to keep this open to be honest.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Well regardless, this should be enough to be closed right?
Yourself, Reiner, Viet disagree with the thread. Not to mention Qawsedf who seemed unconvinced as well and even admitted he wasn't seeing the argument even after going on a bit of a back and forth with Iam.

It does seem to have a lot of votes against it.

I don't see much reason to keep this open to be honest.

We don't generally want to silence Iam. I also have to say I've found a couple of arguments from the other side a little questionable too.

@Qawsedf234 what do you think?

 

[Killerdrone123]

Dude that’s not an counter argument.

the weird dimension is stated multiple times to separate time periods.

To travel from one time period to another you need to travel through it.

The corridor also separates alternate universes and you need to travel through it to reach them.

Explain how the corridor can separate universes but can’t separate time periods, despite treating both the same.

Easy. By not separating them in the first place. What you’re doing here is cherry-picking a very specific scan where the corridor is referred to as a “rift” (while completely ignoring the fact that it has numerous other equally valid names that directly contradict your interpretation) and using that single instance to argue that it functions as some kind of container that both holds and separates everything in parallel. That reasoning doesn’t hold up. This exact line of argument has already been brought up and rejected multiple times on the wiki, in threads going as far back as 2023.

More importantly, the logic itself is fundamentally flawed. Simply because something contains pathways that lead to different time periods or even alternate dimensions does not automatically mean it contains those timelines or dimensions themselves. A connection is not the same thing as containment, and treating those two concepts as interchangeable is where your interpretation falls apart. The corridor linking different points does not make it a higher-dimensional container, nor does it qualify it as Low 1-C. This was already explained to you earlier by Qawsedf, so reiterating the same claim without addressing that core distinction doesn’t strengthen your position.

No you didn’t. I posted a scan that literally states Hotaru was supposed to die but events shifted and caused a change in destiny.

You and no one has countered that scan.

That’s definitive proof the present dimension has a different history than the future dimension.

No, the fact that “history” itself changed automatically means the future would change too. We already explained this to you. Your counter was that this isn’t true because Saturn was never shown in the future, but that point makes no sense. In one case, the Outer Senshi hadn’t even been introduced yet, so obviously they wouldn’t appear. In another case, the future is only briefly shown, and it isn’t even the main focus, so the absence of something there doesn’t prove anything.

Right now, you’re basically using non- existent evidence to prove that the future remain unchanged, which doesn’t work. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If you want to argue that the future remained unchanged, then the burden is on you to actually prove that it did, instead of assuming it based on incomplete or irrelevant scenes

Sailor Moon restored the timeline to its original version. And the spacetime that holds the time dimensions would be the hypertimeline.

That's it. That kills it. Not only do you not have evidence of them being able to travel back to a previous version of the multiverse (or even a "different version" which is technically the same anyway), you "countered" that by arguing literally what you weren't supposed to say. Do you understand what a hypertimeline is dude? Real quick, what's the different between a "time dimension" as you call them here and a "space-time" as you called them previously?

The scans literally states they have their own dimension.

Which is why I asked you if the scans and raws are accurate? Are they? If not, why? Provide evidence of inaccuracy

And dimensions aren't usually spatio-temporally separate structures unless proven explicitly. Your hypertimeline argument only works if they are separate Low 2-C space-times. If not, they're just 3-A dimensions that share the same temporal dimension, nothing more. And that temporal dimension would end up being Low 2-C instead of Low 1-C. In fact this is literally what the story screams at you is happening but you choose to ignore all instances of it to focus on a single

This is what happens when you don’t know the story.

Hotaru’s fsther created an explosion that was was supposed to killer and her mother.

Hotaru survived and her fsther turned her into a cyborg. She then became possessed by mistress 9, then the story plays out.

Sailor Saturn literally says, “History has been thrown off course”

Hotaru was supposed to die in the original explosion. It is because she didn’t die, that Death busters invaded earth. Saturn again states, that Hotaru’s father was the one who summoned the death busters.

Same problem as before, you still haven’t proven that the future remained unchanged. I don’t think you understand how weak that point is. You’re basically saying, “nothing changed, now prove that it did,” which is not how this works. The burden isn’t on us to disprove your assumption, it’s on you to prove your claim.

Our argument already established the precedent. The scans we posted clearly show Sailor Moon and Neo-Queen Serenity directly interacting, and they explicitly state multiple times that their actions would change history. It’s even said verbatim that she would see her again because the past flows directly into the future. That makes the causal link clear.

So you can’t just ignore those direct statements and then rely on the absence of future scenes to claim nothing changed. The series itself already confirms that changes in the past affect the future.

Honestly my final reply to you we are just going in circles now the thread is at it's conclusion both sides have presented there arguments

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

These both seem to refer to being physically close at the same time. Time and space in context seems to refer to them occupying the same place and time, rather than proof of two separate timelines. The part about dimensions is more interesting, but in context it's talking about two of the same crystal resonating at the same time and interfering with each other, which still sounds like it could refer to the same time again.

in conjunction with the other evidence, also take into consideration:

That the time and space of the past and the time and space of the future are physically separated by the corridor. To travel from one time to another, requires physically traveling through the corridor

The past has different local history than the future, and changed events, so they literally do have different time.

 

[Random-Helper323]

That the time and space of the past and the time and space of the future are physically separated by the corridor. To travel from one time to another, requires physically traveling through the corridor

The corridor can be one of many things. It can be simply a means to travel through time. It can also be an insignificant 5-D structure.

The past has different local history than the future, and changed events, so they literally do have different time.

Can you show proof of this, please? I need more than just Saturn not appearing and a lack of references to events. That's an absence of proof, not proof of absence. I need actual evidence that the two clearly can't follow the same timeline.

 

[RoninSlayer200]

We don't generally want to silence Iam. I also have to say I've found a couple of arguments from the other side a little questionable too.

I mean respectfully both sides have argued for days since the first day and they have showed their arguments exrensively, I wouldn't say this is 'silencing'. It's been almost 200 comments.

 

[TiltedFN]

Can you show proof of this, please? I need more than just Saturn not appearing and a lack of references to events. That's an absence of proof, not proof of absence. I need actual evidence that the two clearly can't follow the same timeline.

Yeah we had pointed this out as well, and it's honestly a big flaw in the argument, along with it not really being sufficient proof that they are separate dimensions with their own contained time.
Even if they were, as it's been pointed out, it can still flow under 1 timeline.

That the time and space of the past and the time and space of the future are physically separated by the corridor. To travel from one time to another, requires physically traveling through the corridor

Nope, you never actually proved they had "different time and space". You're once again just asking us to assume that it does based on nothing but a single out-of-context scan. You then later abandoned that line of reasoning and are only arguing that they're just "different dimensions" but you fail you realize that this is an even worse argument because dimensions need not necessarily be separate space-times/spatio-temporally separate. Iam, either you can prove definitively that the past and future are separate space-times, or you concede that this argument is flawed.

 

[TiltedFN]

It is strange that the scans referencing two of the same person both seem to reference the two of them being so close physically. Close can be interpreted a few ways, but honestly, the comment about being in the same time and space could be interpreted as just the same time and place, nothing dimensional needed. The part about being in a different dimension is definitely more notable, although same dimension at the same time is still a possible way to interpret it.

In context, the scans say that two of the same person can't exist in the same time and space, and that two of the same crystal in the same dimension interfere with each other. Both make references afterwards to proximity.

These both seem to refer to being physically close at the same time. Time and space in context seems to refer to them occupying the same place and time, rather than proof of two separate timelines. The part about dimensions is more interesting, but in context it's talking about two of the same crystal resonating at the same time and interfering with each other, which still sounds like it could refer to the same time again.

I also wanted to say you are correct about the scan mentioning time and space referring to them being in the same place at the same time. Not the weird argument of the past and future being separate spacetimes.
There is definitely not enough evidence to come to that conclusion.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Can you show proof of this, please? I need more than just Saturn not appearing and a lack of references to events. That's an absence of proof, not proof of absence. I need actual evidence that the two clearly can't follow the same timeline.

But it’s not a lack of proof? It’s an actual statement and explains why we don’t see Hotaru in the future. I am not saying, the future is different because Hotaru is missing from it. I am saying that future is different because Sailor Saturn says it is.

Saturn says in the original timeline, Hotaru died. Because she died, the death busters never came. Since the death busters never came, Neo Queen Serenity gained her holy grail in a different manner and that would explain why it looks different from Sailor Moon’s.

Hotaru in Sailor Moon’s time survived, and her father’s cruel experiments on her attracted the death busters and brought them to earth. And because the death busters came to earth, Uranus and Neptune awakened.

Neo Queen Serenity never fought the death busters, and Sailor Moon did, that would be differing history.

This explains why we don't see Sailor Saturn in the future. And mind you, the opposition are purposefully downplaying this fact. We have a scene where everyone is basically collapsed, and are being erased from time. By their logic, Sailor Saturn, and Uranus and Neptune, have collapsed and are being erased from existence, and Neo Queen Serenity left them where ever they are to suffer and didn't gather them with he rest? Pluto is outside of time and space, and Queen Serenity went to get here, but she left rest of the outers to die on their own?

Also Saturn is Chibi-usa's best friend. If she existed in the future, why wouldn't chibi-usa recognize Hotaru as Sailor Saturn? Why was the moment in the past, the first time Chibi-usa met Hotaru and then Sailor Saturn?

"They exist in the future but are never shown" creates too many plot holes. The author literally clears this all up, by saying the events of third arc are unique to the past dimension.

But if that’s not enough then I’ll bring out the big guns: Sailor Cosmos.



Sailor Cosmos is the ultimate version of Sailor Moon from a future so far away, its impossible to comprehend.

She came to Sailor Moon and disguised herself as Chibi Chibi, and helped Sailor Moon fight Galaxia and Chaos.

During Cosmos's time as Sailor Moon, she fought these battles alone.

Our main Usagi has a completely different history than the Ultimate Sailor Moon. She also refers to Sailor Moon as an entirely different person despite them being the same. This is why her profile is separate from Sailor Moon on the wiki.

And if that's not enough: Let me remind everyone, there exists another alternate future, that is also called a dimension:



In this future, Sailor Moon has two daughters instead of one and is a civilian. This is a direct future based off of the past dimension, and completely different from the Neo Queen Serenity's future. Notice Hotaru exists and is Chibi-Usa's best friend, so the history here is different from Neo Queen Serenity's

That's four examples of differing local histories in four different places. Three of them are explicitly referred to as separate dimensions.

 

[Random-Helper323]

If several alternative futures exist simultaneously that does seemingly prove separate space-time continuums. I must say that doesn't prove Low 1-C though. Parallel timelines have to exist in a 5-D structure, but it can be insignificant. It doesn't have to be a hypertimeline.

Also, is there any way these are possible futures rather than parallel timelines?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

If several alternative futures exist simultaneously that does seemingly prove separate space-time continuums. I must say that doesn't prove Low 1-C though. Parallel timelines have to exist in a 5-D structure, but it can be insignificant. It doesn't have to be a hypertimeline.

Also, is there any way these are possible futures rather than parallel timelines?

By themselves no, but as I have been arguing, there is still an overarching history that connects these separate time dimensions and allow change to happen across a perpendicular axis while they still retain their unique temporal history.

This would also be the same spacetime, that can hold Mercury’s dimension which both you and Qaws has said is, 5D but not of tierable size.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Ok I saw this responses very peculiar so sorry to break my stance cause i have to clear things out

But it’s not a lack of proof? It’s an actual statement and explains why we don’t see Hotaru in the future. I am not saying, the future is different because Hotaru is missing from it. I am saying that future is different because Sailor Saturn says it is.

Saturn’s statement is that history has changed, not that the future is different, and those are not the same claim. The term “history” refers to events that have already occurred relative to a given point in time. If you try to argue that “history” here means the entire timeline including the future then that actually undermines your own position, because it would directly imply that altering the past necessarily results in changes to the future as well.

Furthermore, your argument assumes that the future remains unchanged specifically, that Hotaru never awakens there despite Saturn existing in the past but you have no way to demonstrate that. Before her introduction, there would have been no reason or opportunity for the narrative to show her awakening in the future anyway. As Random_Helper already explained, this line of reasoning doesn’t support your position and ultimately works against it rather than in your favor.

Saturn says in the original timeline, Hotaru died. Because she died, the death busters never came. Since the death busters never came, Neo Queen Serenity gained her holy grail in a different manner and that would explain why it looks different from Sailor Moon’s.

Hotaru in Sailor Moon’s time survived, and her father’s cruel experiments on her attracted the death busters and brought them to earth. And because the death busters came to earth, Uranus and Neptune awakened.

Neo Queen Serenity never fought the death busters, and Sailor Moon did, that would be differing history.

This explains why we don't see Sailor Saturn in the future. And mind you, the opposition are purposefully downplaying this fact. We have a scene where everyone is basically collapsed, and are being erased from time. By their logic, Sailor Saturn, and Uranus and Neptune, have collapsed and are being erased from existence, and Neo Queen Serenity left them where ever they are to suffer and didn't gather them with he rest? Pluto is outside of time and space, and Queen Serenity went to get here, but she left rest of the outers to die on their own?

Also Saturn is Chibi-usa's best friend. If she existed in the future, why wouldn't chibi-usa recognize Hotaru as Sailor Saturn? Why was the moment in the past, the first time Chibi-usa met Hotaru and then Sailor Saturn?

"They exist in the future but are never shown" creates too many plot holes. The author literally clears this all up, by saying the events of third arc are unique to the past dimension.

Your own scan ends up contradicting your argument in multiple ways. For example, it explicitly mentions “investigating abnormalities in space-time,” and then directly connects those abnormalities to events in the past. It also refers to “all the strange things happening across space-time,” again in the context of the Guardians’ actions in the past, while simultaneously including “our world” within that same scope. This clearly places both the past and their present under the same overarching space-time framework.

Over and over again, the narrative consistently treats the past and future as part of a single, continuous space-time, rather than separate, independent space-times. At no point do they distinguish their present world and the past world as two completely detached space-time structures. Instead, both are described as existing within the same space-time continuum, merely at different temporal points or, at most, different dimensions that do not require full spatio-temporal separation.

Given this consistent framing, it becomes difficult to justify the claim that these are separate space-times. If anything, the wording reinforces the opposite conclusion that changes and events are occurring within one unified space-time. I genuinely don’t see how this supports your position, because the language used repeatedly works against that interpretation rather than in favor of it.

But if that’s not enough then I’ll bring out the big guns: Sailor Cosmos.



Sailor Cosmos is the ultimate version of Sailor Moon from a future so far away, its impossible to comprehend.

She came to Sailor Moon and disguised herself as Chibi Chibi, and helped Sailor Moon fight Galaxia and Chaos.

During Cosmos's time as Sailor Moon, she fought these battles alone.

Our main Usagi has a completely different history than the Ultimate Sailor Moon. She also refers to Sailor Moon as an entirely different person despite them being the same. This is why her profile is separate from Sailor Moon on the wiki.

Cosmos' own dialogue here debunks you. She refers to a "future too distance to contemplate", again never referring it to as a different world (or more accurately, a different space-time since even if she had said "world" it wouldn't have proven your point). Whenever characters talk about either the future or the past they always, always refer to it in a temporal context (like how we often say the near or distant future), not as them being separate space-times. You simply don't have this key piece of evidence to prove this. And as Random_Helper also correctly said, that one scan that you did have it that stated this, just refers to them being in the same place at the same time and also their proximity to one another too (hence the "place" part). Cosmos going back to the past to try and alter history with past Sailor Moon doesn't change anything nor does it change the fact the past still flows into the future. Also, let's not forget that Sailor Moon constantly refers to changing history whenever she interacted with Neo-Queen Serenity. Again, this can only happen if the past flows into the future, if her actions or interactions with NQ Serenity which normally shouldn't happen, will affect a "future" that is already seemingly pre-determined. All this to say that this isn't an unprecedented thing in this manga and is NOT evidence of different space-times proper.

And if that's not enough: Let me remind everyone, there exists another alternate future, that is also called a dimension:



In this future, Sailor Moon has two daughters instead of one and is a civilian. This is a direct future based off of the past dimension, and completely different from the Neo Queen Serenity's future. Notice Hotaru exists and is Chibi-Usa's best friend, so the history here is different from Neo Queen Serenity's

That's four examples of differing local histories in four different places. Three of them are explicitly referred to as separate dimensions.

This is irrelevant because the material you’re citing comes from a completely separate one-shot manga published in 1999, well after the original Sailor Moon had already concluded. It is not part of the main continuity and therefore cannot be used as evidence for the original storyline.

In fact, there are clear contradictions that immediately demonstrate it doesn’t align with the core canon. For example, Rei Hino has consistently been portrayed as someone who rejects the idea of romance and has explicitly expressed a preference for remaining independent. Yet in this one-shot, she is depicted as married and even having a child, which directly conflicts with her established characterization in the main manga.

So while this setting may be described as an “alternate dimension,” that alone does not make it canon to the original narrative. It is far more accurately understood as an alternate or parallel work essentially a standalone scenario rather than something that exists within or governs the continuity of the primary manga.

If several alternative futures exist simultaneously that does seemingly prove separate space-time continuums. I must say that doesn't prove Low 1-C though. Parallel timelines have to exist in a 5-D structure, but it can be insignificant. It doesn't have to be a hypertimeline.

Also, is there any way these are possible futures rather than parallel timelines?

It could, yes. The Galaxy Cauldron is stated to be able to birth possibilities so it could simply just be that, but regardless, there's no real reason to believe that the one shot exists in the mainline story given that it's never even acknowledged as such. The only 'dimensions' in the main storyline are ones that it states exist

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Following.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Furthermore, your argument assumes that the future remains unchanged specifically, that Hotaru never awakens there despite Saturn existing in the past but you have no way to demonstrate that. Before her introduction, there would have been no reason or opportunity for the narrative to show her awakening in the future anyway. As Random_Helper already explained, this line of reasoning doesn’t support your position and ultimately works against it rather than in your favor.

Did you not read anything I said? We visit the future multiple times after the third arc. She’s still not shown to be there.

I literally gave in universe evidence as to why we don’t see Saturn in the future during the last arc, after she is already introduced.

Your reasoning is “just because”.

Your own scan ends up contradicting your argument in multiple ways. For example, it explicitly mentions “investigating abnormalities in space-time,” and then directly connects those abnormalities to events in the past. It also refers to “all the strange things happening across space-time,” again in the context of the Guardians’ actions in the past, while simultaneously including “our world” within that same scope. This clearly places both the past and their present under the same overarching space-time framework.

Over and over again, the narrative consistently treats the past and future as part of a single, continuous space-time, rather than separate, independent space-times. At no point do they distinguish their present world and the past world as two completely detached space-time structures. Instead, both are described as existing within the same space-time continuum, merely at different temporal points or, at most, different dimensions that do not require full spatio-temporal separation.

Given this consistent framing, it becomes difficult to justify the claim that these are separate space-times. If anything, the wording reinforces the opposite conclusion that changes and events are occurring within one unified space-time. I genuinely don’t see how this supports your position, because the language used repeatedly works against that interpretation rather than in favor of it.

Not this again. This is actually cherry picking.

The work does both. You’re entire argument requires one or the other to be true.

My argument requires both to be true.

There is evidence for both. They are not exclusive

There can be separated time dimensions with their own unique history, and an overarching history that connects them.

This is irrelevant because the material you’re citing comes from a completely separate one-shot manga published in 1999, well after the original Sailor Moon had already concluded. It is not part of the main continuity and therefore cannot be used as evidence for the original storyline.

In fact, there are clear contradictions that immediately demonstrate it doesn’t align with the core canon. For example, Rei Hino has consistently been portrayed as someone who rejects the idea of romance and has explicitly expressed a preference for remaining independent. Yet in this one-shot, she is depicted as married and even having a child, which directly conflicts with her established characterization in the main manga.

So while this setting may be described as an “alternate dimension,” that alone does not make it canon to the original narrative. It is far more accurately understood as an alternate or parallel work essentially a standalone scenario rather than something that exists within or governs the continuity of the primary manga.

it’s included in the manga with the rest of the stars arc. It is not standalone. The manga includes side stories Naoko has written for each arc. They are all canon.

Cosmos' own dialogue here debunks you. She refers to a "future too distance to contemplate", again never referring it to as a different world (or more accurately, a different space-time since even if she had said "world" it wouldn't have proven your point). Whenever characters talk about either the future or the past they always, always refer to it in a temporal context (like how we often say the near or distant future), not as them being separate space-times. You simply don't have this key piece of evidence to prove this. And as Random_Helper also correctly said, that one scan that you did have it that stated this, just refers to them being in the same place at the same time and also their proximity to one another too (hence the "place" part). Cosmos going back to the past to try and alter history with past Sailor Moon doesn't change anything nor does it change the fact the past still flows into the future. Also, let's not forget that Sailor Moon constantly refers to changing history whenever she interacted with Neo-Queen Serenity. Again, this can only happen if the past flows into the future, if her actions or interactions with NQ Serenity which normally shouldn't happen, will affect a "future" that is already seemingly pre-determined. All this to say that this isn't an unprecedented thing in this manga and is NOT evidence of different space-times proper.

The argument was that Cosmos faced Chaos by herself, and Sailor Moon had Cosmos’s help, making there be another instance of diverging local history.

It could, yes. The Galaxy Cauldron is stated to be able to birth possibilities so it could simply just be that, but regardless, there's no real reason to believe that the one shot exists in the mainline story given that it's never even acknowledged as such. The only 'dimensions' in the main storyline are ones that it states exist

This also reminds me that the cauldron also is stated to give birth to futures as well.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

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This has become longer and I grow weary so I am putting down my final arguments and then asking the mods to who commented to reaffirm their votes:

Mercury's dimension was creating by establishing a new time axis and is a space that is not like anything in the third dimension. This would suggest that it is 5D. Four dimensions of space, and one dimension of time. Random Helper and Qaws agreed but stated it was not of significant size. The OP has all the information here.

I have the current tally for this as this:

Mercury's Dimension being 5D:
Agree:
Agree, but it's insignificant (not tierable): @Qawsedf234, @Random-Helper323 @Planck69
Disagree: @Reiner04, @Vietthai96
Neutral:

Next we have the hypertimeline argument:

The work itself states that the past and future are their own dimensions. And consistently throughout the entire series, the work calls other time periods, dimensions. These time dimensions are stated to have fits, or separations between them. This corroborated with the fact that the past and future have differing timelines:

In the main timeline, Sailor Saturn states plainly that history went of course, and events changed. Hotaru was supposed to die in her father's lab explosion, but instead died. Her father's madness to turn her into a cyborg, attracted the Death Busters and they invaded earth: This led to a chain reaction which awakened Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune, and had Sailor Pluto (who died in the future dimension) be reincarnated to the past dimension.

This canon statement, explains why we do not see Sailor Saturn, Sailor Neptune, or Sailor Uranus in the future, after they were introduced in the third arc. It also explains why Neo Queen Serenity's Holy Grail, looks different from Sailor Moon's. Sailor Moon's Holy Grail was created as an art project between Sailor Moon, Tuxedo Mask, and Chibi-usa for Chibi-usa's class. Their love as a family, transformed it into Sailor Moon's Holy Grail.

Also right before the third arc, Sailor Moon and Neo Queen Serenity purposefully met each other, and they knew that meeting would change history.

It is not a coincidence that right after the two changed history by meeting, we had an entire arc that is called "history going off course". It's called story writing.

There are other examples such, Cosmos's history having her facing Chaos alone, but Sailor Moon's history has her facing Chaos with Cosmos by her side.
There is another future dimension with an alternate future, that seems to be an offshoot of main sailor moon's history. The Cauldron, which is the source of everything, and all the star seeds that make up everything, is stated to give birth to these futures, create these histories, and possibilities.

Consideration of the source material needs to take in consideration all the canon information. The opposition has been arguing to throw these things away or not take them seriously, rather than to prove that they are incorrect. (They can't. It's right there on the paper) Or that my interpretation is wrong, which is a matter of taste, as they have no actual evidence to back that opinion on. They tried to argue that because there is overarching history, their can only be one timeline, but an overarching history and multiple timelines are not mutually exclusive concepts on this wiki. Both can exist or the concept of a hypertimeline wouldn't be a thing on this wiki at all.

By the wiki standards, that would mean the past dimension and the future dimension have their own unique set of snapshots. (The opposition argues that star seeds grant acausality so the changes wouldn't affect the characters of future dimension. Sure why not? But everything in sailor moon has star seeds, the planet, stars, people etc., so that would logically mean that everything wouldn't be affected by the changes and remain the same in the future dimension, meaning their unique snapshots would remain in place no matter what changes happen in the past dimension)

However, there is still an overarching history that connects these two dimensions (the pasts changes the future's present, and the future changes the past's present) and extreme changes (like messing with star seeds) can cause changes to occur in both dimensions simultaneously, and within the greater spacetime holding them. This would dictate that the spacetime holding these dimensions, is a hypertimeline.

This hypertimeline would signify the insignificant 5D that exists because of Mercury's Dimension.

Here is the tally. I didn't place Helper of Qaws yet, as they seemed to be open to arguments. But they can finally give their ratings now.

Spacetime of the universe is a hypertimeline that holds individual time dimensions:
Agree:
Disagree: @Reiner04, @Vietthai96, @Planck69
Neutral:

If you can a call other mods that would be great.

 

[Vietthai96]

@Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Planck69 @Theglassman12 @ActuallySpaceMan42

Anyway, in case people asking, i'm still keeping my vote

 

[Planck69]

I hold more or less the same opinion as Qawsedf on Mercury's dimension. It's just insignificantly 5-dimensional like most other spaces holding multiple space-time continuums.

Completely disagree with the hypertimeline argument though.