Sailor Moon AP Upgrade: Low 1-C

[Killerdrone123]

How is time a spatial dimension? Just asking

What I mean here the extra spatial dimension that he is attributing mercury world here could simply just be time axis let me just correct that fyi the scan doesn't call it spatial dimension

 

[Hasty12345]

I disagree FRA

 

[Random-Helper323]

Okay, so we have what seems to be a higher dimensional space. Can anyone tell me what indications there are of its size, or whether its higher dimensional status is questionable? That seems to be the crux of this thread.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Okay, so we have what seems to be a higher dimensional space. Can anyone tell me what indications there are of its size, or whether its higher dimensional status is questionable? That seems to be the crux of this thread.

There is no indication of its size. However, it exists within the greater cosmology which, holds it and the rest of the universes. So it’s a question of if the greater cosmology has significant size.

Qaws mentioned that, containing the higher dimensional space, gives it a slightly bigger 5th dimension (bigger than insignificant I guess) but not significant.

I am also arguing that the universes itself are 5D.

Time periods are different dimensional structures within them, and are separated by rifts, meaning they are not continuous. The text says these sections each have their own space and time, meaning their 4D.

However there is a overarching history that connects all the dimensions and changes them.

Opposition is trying to argue that the timelines are just singular linear structures. But this explicitly false and requires denial of evidence:

1. There are multiple future dimensions
2. The dimensions are not continuous

No one has come up with an explanation that includes these facts other than to wave away these facts.

I am waiting for Qaws response, asking for a clarification of his comment and also to address new scans I have added to help further prove the case.

Also waiting on Reiner to comment what are the requirements for timeline to be considered to be broken into sections.

 

[Random-Helper323]

There is no indication of its size. However, it exists within the greater cosmology which, holds it and the rest of the universes. So it’s a question of if the greater cosmology has significant size.

Qaws mentioned that, containing the higher dimensional space, gives it a slightly bigger 5th dimension (bigger than insignificant I guess) but not significant.

Yeah, so far this sounds like an insignificant 5-D structure. However, someone raised the idea that it was just time travel along the fourth axis, namely time. If so it'd be a 4-D timeline.

I am also arguing that the universes itself are 5D.

Time periods are different dimensional structures within them, and are separated by rifts, meaning they are not continuous. The text says these sections each have their own space and time, meaning their 4D.

However there is a overarching history that connects all the dimensions and changes them.

Opposition is trying to argue that the timelines are just singular linear structures. But this explicitly false and requires denial of evidence:

1. There are multiple future dimensions
2. The dimensions are not continuous

No one has come up with an explanation that includes these facts other than to wave away these facts.

Yeah, I've read the back and forth on this. Can you show me the scans that demonstrate the future and past and whatnot are explicitly separate space-time continuums? Dragon Ball got this for the fact that Trunks dramatically changed the past into a nice world only to come back and discover his own future still unchanged and still a hellhole, to put it simply. This revealed two separate space-time continuums.

I am waiting for Qaws response, asking for a clarification of his comment and also to address new scans I have added to help further prove the case.

Also waiting on Reiner to comment what are the requirements for timeline to be considered to be broken into sections.

There's a problem with timelines broken into sections. The whole point to a timeline is that it's infinite or close to it as it contains infinite snapshots of the 3-D space. If each moment in time or even each stretch of a certain amount of time were somehow a separate space-time continuum, that might ironically be a lot of insignificant temporal axes. That'd be a really weird cosmology.

I must ask. My knowledge of Sailor Moon is limited to a little trivia from someone I know IRL loving the show, and seeing the first episode. Still, I do know that Usagi's future daughter appears as a result of time travel. How does that time travel function in regards to the future? Does she risk negating her own existence if she were to cause Usagi and Tuxedo Mask to never conceive her?

 

[Killerdrone123]

Snip

Well this is going to be a long one

Okay, there are a few problems with this.
First, the scans only say that they traveled to a world that is different from, or does not exist in, their three dimensional world. This does NOT automatically mean that the place itself is a higher spatial dimension. Saying that they went “beyond space-time” (of their normal world) simply means they left their own space-time and entered another one. It does not prove that the new place has a higher spatial dimension. You would need a clear statement that confirms it is higher dimensional.

Second, even if I assume that this place has a fourth spatial axis, there is still no proof that this extra axis is meaningful or significant in any way. Just having an additional axis mentioned is not enough. There must be clear evidence showing that it actually functions as a higher dimension and is important, not just something that exists without any demonstrated impact.


This statement perfectly shows what is wrong with this interpretation. This could easily be explained by them traveling to a world that is beyond or simply different from their normal three dimensional reality. There is no need to assume that this automatically means the place has four spatial axes. Saying that it has four spatial dimensions is a logical leap, because nothing directly confirms the existence of an extra spatial axis.

And this right here proves it. If it does not exist within their normal three dimensional world, then it obviously exists somewhere outside or beyond it. That is the most direct and safest interpretation. Claiming that this automatically means it has four spatial dimensions is a complete non sequitur, and it is not an honest or logically supported interpretation.

I hope you understand that this is completely possible with a world that is simply a different space-time beyond their normal reality. A different space-time would also have its own separate time axis. In fact, it can be argued that she established a time axis specifically to travel between these worlds.
If that is the case, then the “3 dimensional” statement does not help your argument. The so-called fourth dimension you are referring to could just be time itself. In other words, they would be moving along the time axis to reach another world or space-time. That alone would qualify as going “beyond” their normal three spatial dimensions.

So this would not be an example of four spatial dimensions plus time (4D + 1T). Instead, it would simply be the standard model of three spatial dimensions plus one time dimension (3D + 1T).

No, this is simply incorrect. You have been repeating this argument for years, and every time it has been rejected.
The term “super-dimensional” does not automatically mean higher dimensional. That is a naming fallacy, and in most cases it is not interpreted that way. Terms like that can just mean “beyond” or “outside” in a general sense, not literally referring to a higher spatial dimension.

Likewise, “transcending space and time” does not necessarily mean higher dimensional existence. As explained earlier, it can simply mean moving beyond the space-time of their current reality and entering a different one. This interpretation is directly supported by the statement you provided.

Because of that, the argument that “it must be higher dimensional because you need super-dimensional space to access it” is not logically sound. Adding more wording or details does not fix the core problem, since there is still no clear or direct statement confirming higher spatial dimensionality.

This is almost a word-for-word repetition of what was already said in the blog, but there is something important to point out here. The term “設定” can have multiple meanings, and it does not always imply literal creation. It can also mean “setting,” “establishing,” or “defining,” depending on the context. Because of that, you cannot automatically assume that it means she created the entire world or its space-time from nothing. This weakens your argument.

Also, the claim that “it doesn’t state that the new world lacks space and time” is questionable. If a character had to establish or create a time axis for that world, then the safer conclusion would be that it did not originally have one, at least not in an accessible or functional sense.

Another reasonable interpretation is that the time axis was established specifically to allow travel to or across that world, rather than to create the entire structure itself. This would also be consistent with the earlier statement describing it as a three-dimensional world, since the additional axis being referenced could simply be time, not an extra spatial dimension.

Yes, this looks like a misinterpretation.
The first scan is not saying that the future is a completely different space-time. It is simply stating that the same person cannot exist more than once in the same time and space. The future is just a different point in time, a different era. That is why the same individual cannot exist there twice at once, because it would create a well-known time paradox. This does not mean the future is a separate space-time; it is still part of the same timeline, just at a later point.

The second scan includes an important detail that was missed. It specifically says that two Silver Crystals cannot exist in the same time. The reason is the same: having two identical versions existing at the same time would cause a paradox. This again relates to temporal overlap, not separate space-times.
None of this proves the existence of different or higher space-times. It only establishes that duplicates cannot coexist at the same temporal point within the same continuum. And since it has already been established that branching timelines do not exist here, there is no basis to argue that these are separate space-times rather than different points along the same timeline.

This is the classic Grandfather's Paradox I was talking about. Let me make this clear, the only reason you're extrapolating that this means they're separate space-times is because it says they can't exist in the same time and space. However what it ACTUALLY means is that two Sailor Moons can NOT exist in the same physical space AND the same time-era simultaneously, since that is what causes this paradox that I had already referred to earlier. Such a paradox however is SOLVED by having different space-times/branching timelines but it isn't here because they're still talking about Sailor Moon being erased because of it. How do you not see this working against you argument?

Okay, no. This is just misleading. Executor_NO has stated on multiple different occasions that the term jigen in Japanese has as much nuance as its English counterpart. It does not always necessarily refer to the mathematical dimensions all the time, but only in cases where context would suggest so

No, this is simply an example of causality immunity granted by their Sailor Crystals. It does not prove that the future and the past are separate space-times.

Also, remember the Silver Crystal scan you mentioned earlier. It clearly states that two Silver Crystals existing in the same time and in close proximity will interfere with each other and stop functioning properly. That is exactly what is happening here. This directly implies that the future is not a separate space-time, because the interaction is still occurring within the same temporal continuum.

It is even explicitly stated that the past Silver Crystal only works in the past. This further confirms that these crystals are tied to their specific point in time, not to separate space-times or higher-dimensional structures.

Overall, everything here points to the past and future being different points along the same time axis, not separate dimensional axes or separate space-times.

The Kanji point is mostly irrelevant here. What actually matters is that these dimensions are accessed through time travel. That strongly suggests they exist along the same temporal axis, rather than being completely separate space-times. You would first need clear proof that they are independent space-times before making that claim.

Even if you could prove they are separate space-times, it would not really support your argument about the future being a different space-time. At best, it would only apply to those specific dimensions, not the future itself.
Dimensional travel and time travel are fundamentally different concepts. Dimensional travel involves moving to a completely separate space-time or reality, while time travel involves moving to a different point along the same time axis. If what is happening here is clearly time travel, then there is no valid reason to claim that it involves separate space-times or higher dimensions.

In any case, this point is mostly irrelevant, because even if you draw conclusions about those dimensions, it would not automatically apply to the future.

No, it only means that time travel was required to access that world. This completely undermines the main foundation of your argument, which is the “3-dimensional world” statement.

Going beyond that world and moving along the fourth dimension—time—can already be explained by standard time travel. There is no need to assume the existence of an extra spatial axis for this to work.

There is no indication of any extra spatial dimension or axis here. The entire situation can be fully explained through movement along the time axis alone. As I have been saying, this argument ends up contradicting and weakening your own position rather than supporting it.

Again, same thing with the Kanji. It doesn't mean a different mathematical dimension. This is a highly misleading argument and I don't understand why you keep doing this here.

I don’t see how this really differentiates anything. Also, being a different dimension (meaning separated from the main world) does not automatically mean it exists on a different spatial or temporal axis like you are claiming.

This is why we don’t automatically assume that every separate dimension is its own space-time. We usually need clear evidence to prove that first.

It is not. It's a severe misinterpretation of the given statements. Given your statements about time traveling to these dimensions, it is entirely more reasonable to state that Mercury simply used a form of time travel (aka accessing the fourth dimension) to travel to a world beyond their 3-dimensional reality. Her accessing this 4th dimension of time adequately satisfies this condition and the world being a different space from their normal reality satisfies the condition of it being transcendent of their world. Nothing here suggests a fourth spatial axis or anything of that nature whatsoever.

Also I wanna bring up something that's very interesting that directly contradicts everything you establish here. On various Sailor Moon profiles, we have immeasurable speed granted to characters who scale to Usagi lighting up the space-time of her entire universe. Now, the only reason something like this can be immeasurable speed is if you state that various eras of time were also reached with this. However, the statement only talks about a single space-time still and yet still includes (presumably) said future as well. So which is it then? Are they different space-times or are they a single space-time, but merely different eras?

This right here supports this. Lighting up and transcending "all of space time" still only refers to a single space-time, and because it still grants it immeasurable speed, that means the future is also the same space-time. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Also I would like to bring up the fact that this has been rejected atleast twice already and there was even going to be a discussion rule about it.The arguments didn't change whatsoever nor is there any new information here besides the novelization which only provides a different translation nothing new

Sailor Moon! Tier One! The Ultimate Panacea!

I first want to make a big shoutout to former user HenshinIntervention who found the novelization and provided translation! This was the last needed puzzle piece to finally get this going! This is brand new, never before seen information! This CRT will have three parts: 1. To accept the Sailor...

vsbattles.com

Sailor Moon Tier 1 Upgrade (Reformatted)

Reformatting this arguments to be more streamlined. I have dropped some arguments as they did not work out. But the remaining two I believe work: 4Dimensional Space exists within the Sailor Moon Universe. 1. Sailor Mercury in the 1ast arc uses in-world math, to create a super dimensional...

vsbattles.com

Referring to this comment specifically

So yeah I think implementing a discussion rule shoud be up there for discussion

This is preety much the counter arguments for the thread

 

[Killerdrone123]

Actually, it's not even that it has four spatial axes. You see, Mercury uses a "time axis" (that she allegedly establishes) to leave their normal 3-dimensional world to go to this other space. Now OP thinks that this implies that Mercury went to a world with 4 spatial axes. Not only is this flawed on its own because merely "going beyond their 3-dimensional reality" doesn't necessarily imply entering a higher dimensional one, but that even if we grant this; the argument is still flawed. As I said earlier, she used a time axis to go to it, which itself would work as this "fourth dimension" instead of any spatial dimension. If anything, it just means she used the "fourth dimension" (the time axis) to go beyond their normal 3-dimensional reality, which doesn't leave any room for her dimension to have any extra-spatial axis. The reason I saw this is due to the time-axis part and the fact that "transcendence/going beyond" doesn't always (or even most of the time) refer to literal dimensional transcendence

I think the Mercury dimension just ends up being a 3D + 1T construct

Like this statement from MGQ sums it all up

Also the comment which I think is important for the thread

 

[Vietthai96]

Somehow the link is dead when i get back to my PC but anyway, the third scan is what you mentioned.

And the Japanese uses Jigen, the same kanji that King Endymion uses to say that a person can't exist in the same space, time, and dimension

Now come to the third scan

同じ時間と空間に一人の人間が複数存在することはありえない

This is the original japanese texts

It is impossible for more than one person to exist in the same time and space.

This is the english translation

The issue is, you said King Endymion use Jigen kanji but no, the kanji in the text is

空間 (Kūkan)

Jigen is this

次元

So yeah, you are completely wrong

Next, 空間 (Kūkan) also mean region of space, and we have the next orginal japanese texts

それが同時にしかもこんな近くに存在したから歪みが生じたんだ

English translation

The distortion occurred because they existed so close together at the same time.

With contexts, we know that Neo-Queen Serenity was starting to fade away cause Sailor Moon was her past-self. So the texts mean that due to existing too close together, one version was fading away, thus the "space" in statement

It is impossible for more than one person to exist in the same time and space.

didn't even mean space as in dimension or realm but rather place instead; the whole context is pretty much meaning that due to Sailor Moon and Neo-Queen Serenity being in close proximity, one was starting to fade away. Not because they are in the same literal dimension

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

So yeah, you are completely wrong

Why are you blatantly lying?

The first scan I posted uses jigen, it's there for everyone to see.

 

[Vietthai96]

Why are you blatantly lying?

The first scan I posted uses jigen, it's there for everyone to see.

I'm talking about the third scan. Which is literally this

the same kanji that King Endymion uses to say that a person can't exist in the same space, time, and dimension

From your own comment. the bolded text come from the 3rd scan

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I'm talking about the third scan. Which is literally this

From your own comment. the bolded text come from the 3rd scan

Viet you need to backtrack what you're saying because if you look at my OP, I link to this:



and the raw scan I posted of that same scene uses jigen. You purposefully only translated the other scan, and not the first one. That is being deceitful.

 

[Vietthai96]

Viet you need to backtrack what you're saying because if you look at my OP, I link to this:



and the raw scan I posted of that same scene uses jigen. You purposefully only translated the other scan, and not the first one. That is being deceitful.

the same kanji that King Endymion uses to say that a person can't exist in the same space, time, and dimension

The issue is the bolded text here, where you were claiming that King Endymion used the same Kanji which is Jigen, and my comment was to point out that it isn't; they use different kanji. The 1st scan do use Jigen, but the 3rd one

that a person can't exist in the same space, time, and dimension

which this text comes from, didn't use the same Jigen kanji, but use a completely different one

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The issue is the bolded text here, where you were claiming that King Endymion used the same Kanji which is Jigen, and my comment was to point out that it isn't; they use different kanji. The 1st scan do use Jigen, but the 3rd one

which this text comes from, didn't use the same Jigen kanji, but use a completely different one

No, Viet. The issue is that you went out of your way to try to make me seem like I was lying about the scans by purposefully occluding information and only translating one scan and leaving the other scan untranslated.

The OP says this:

"Sailor Moon and Neo Queen Serenity cannot exist in the same space and time, as doing so would cause a paradox and erase Sailor Moon. This establishes that the past and future are separate space-times, which is standard for many series. However, the series goes further by explicitly stating that they cannot exist in the same dimension.

The kanji used is not the term for pocket spaces or alternate realms (異空間), but rather the term for a mathematical dimension (次元). So when King Endymion refers to “dimension,” he is not simply referring to space in a general sense, but to a dimensional axis."

King Endymion is speaking in both scans. In later messages, I paraphrased them both together. He does say that same being cannot exist in the same dimension. He also says the same being cannot exist in the same time and space. There is nothing wrong with me combining all three together in subsequent messages to save time and space.

Admit you were mistaken and retract your post saying I was wrong.

 

[Random-Helper323]

If her future self started fading because they were present at the same time and place, wouldn't that basically be the grandfather paradox? It implies that her present self's changes can negate the future self, which is literally what the grandfather paradox is about.

I also have to raise this again. Someone said something about Usagi and Tuxedo Mask's future daughter fading if Tuxedo Mask dies before conceiving her. That would seem to support a shared timeline as well.

 

[Da3ggman]

Honestly, to me, it seems fairly obvious that the series itself implies only 1 timeline with all the paradox’s and such, and the OP is attempting to conjure up a non-existent Low 1-C rating using various scans and translations that just…aren’t meant to support that. Idk, feels like a classic case of Occam’s Razor.

Anyway, I think most of the arguing is done, so most of what’s left is to call a staff vote.

 

[Killerdrone123]

If her future self started fading because they were present at the same time and place, wouldn't that basically be the grandfather paradox? It implies that her present self's changes can negate the future self, which is literally what the grandfather paradox is about.

I also have to raise this again. Someone said something about Usagi and Tuxedo Mask's future daughter fading if Tuxedo Mask dies before conceiving her. That would seem to support a shared timeline as well.

Yeah When kamen got erased after falling into cauldron it caused him and his daughter in another time period to be erased to even straight out get vanished from photos

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

I also have to raise this again. Someone said something about Usagi and Tuxedo Mask's future daughter fading if Tuxedo Mask dies before conceiving her. That would seem to support a shared timeline as well.

Indeed, the SM supporters made a pretty big deal in a previous thread about how without the limited resistance to causality manipulation provided by star seeds, the future counterparts of the main cast get erased when their present versions are erased. I'm gonna copy-paste their exact argument:

When Tuxedo Kamen was erased in the past, his future self was still alive in the future and his daughter, Chibi-Usa, was unaffected by her father dying in the past. When Tuxedo Kamen was pushed into the galaxy cauldron and his star seed was destroyed. Chibi-Usa, his daughter from the future, was immediately erased from history.

Then I'll bring up how the same applied to the other Sailor Guardians, as their counterparts from the 30th century started to fade from existence after they'd been erased by Galaxia for some time.

 

[Mbpoops]

Yea its just a paradox theres too many anti feats in the series to say they are are undoubtably separate dimensions

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

If her future self started fading because they were present at the same time and place, wouldn't that basically be the grandfather paradox? It implies that her present self's changes can negate the future self, which is literally what the grandfather paradox is about.

The grandfather paradox is when you go back to the past and kill your grandfather before he meets your grandmother, preventing yourself from being born, which would then prevent you from being born, which would then prevent you from traveling back into time to kill your grandfather.

This doesn't apply here, because:

1. Sailor Moon is in the future, changing your future, won't result in changing your past to somehow prevent yourself from being born.

2. Sailor Moon was the one being erased, not her future self. The one in the wrong dimension was being erased. Not the future version. If it was Grandfather paradox, the future self would be the one that is getting erased.

3. The paradox isn't caused by changes to the timeline, it is caused by the same person existing in the same time, space, and dimension. (Sailor Moon becomes immune to this paradox after an upgrade from Neo Queen Serenity)

I also have to raise this again. Someone said something about Usagi and Tuxedo Mask's future daughter fading if Tuxedo Mask dies before conceiving her. That would seem to support a shared timeline as well.

Yes and no.

Tuxedo mask has been killed and both his future self and daughter were unaffected. Later on, his future self began to be erased but his daughter was also unaffected.

Only when the cauldron erased Tuxedo Mask from the timeline, past, present, and future, did ChibiUsa disappear.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Honestly, to me, it seems fairly obvious that the series itself implies only 1 timeline with all the paradox’s and such, and the OP is attempting to conjure up a non-existent Low 1-C rating using various scans and translations that just…aren’t meant to support that. Idk, feels like a classic case of Occam’s Razor.

How many times do I have to show there are multiple future dimensions? Are we just purposefully ignoring that. Occam's Razor also requires, taking into consideration all the evidence. Not throwing evidence out.

 

[Vietthai96]

No, Viet. The issue is that you went out of your way to try to make me seem like I was lying about the scans by purposefully occluding information and only translating one scan and leaving the other scan untranslated.

?????

The kanji used is not the term for pocket spaces or alternate realms (異空間), but rather the term for a mathematical dimension (次元). So when King Endymion refers to “dimension,” he is not simply referring to space in a general sense, but to a dimensional axis."

異空間 is just "ikukan," where the "i" before "kukan" means "different." It is a term usually used for isekai which means different world (Sekei is World), That term is completely irrelevant, the issue is you claim 空間 (Kūkan) as alternate realm or pocket space, which again is a complete misinterpretation of Japanese text. 空間 (Kūkan) simply means "space" in a very vague and broad sense; it was rarely used as a "pocket dimension".

The second misinterpretation of japanese text is claiming 次元 Jigen is only mathematic dimension; it mean dimension in a very vague way, which again entirely depending on context

King Endymion is speaking in both scans. In later messages, I paraphrased them both together. He does say that same being cannot exist in the same dimension. He also says the same being cannot exist in the same time and space. There is nothing wrong with me combining all three together in subsequent messages to save time and space.

Just no, the first scan use Jigen but the 3rd one was using Kukan, use was literally claimed that Jigen =! Kukan and now you slammed them together like they have the same meaning??

Admit you were mistaken and retract your post saying I was wrong.

????. Sorry but I'm keeping my opinion that you were wrong and what the hell with that commanding tone that tell me to admit thing???

Yes and no.

Tuxedo mask has been killed and both his future self and daughter were unaffected. Later on, his future self began to be erased but his daughter was also unaffected.

Only when the cauldron erased Tuxedo Mask from the timeline, past, present, and future, did ChibiUsa disappear.

No, just no, please not this again, Tuxedo Mask was killed, but not his starseed, latter when the Cauldron erase his starseed, thus totally erasing his existence, Chibiusa started to disappear. In this verse, a starseed was literally everyone's essence of existence, like a soul; if the starseed still exists, that means said person is still alive.

 

[Mbpoops]

The grandfather paradox is when you go back to the past and kill your grandfather before he meets your grandmother, preventing yourself from being born, which would then prevent you from being born, which would then prevent you from traveling back into time to kill your grandfather.

You seem to be taking this in the most literal way. Grandfather paradox is just the name but it is used to describe whats going on here. Sailor moon’s present actions changed her future thus making her future self vanish that is UNDOUBTABLY a grandfather paradox.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

You seem to be taking this in the most literal way. Grandfather paradox is just the name but it is used to describe whats going on here. Sailor moon’s present actions changed her future thus making her future self vanish that is UNDOUBTABLY a grandfather paradox.

Her future self was not the one vanishing.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

No, just no, please not this again, Tuxedo Mask was killed, but not his starseed, latter when the Cauldron erase his starseed, thus totally erasing his existence, Chibiusa started to disappear. In this verse, a starseed was literally everyone's essence of existence, like a soul; if the starseed still exists, that means said person is still alive.

Viett can you stop? You literally just repeated the same thing I just said. What part of what I said was wrong?

 

[Random-Helper323]

The grandfather paradox is when you go back to the past and kill your grandfather before he meets your grandmother, preventing yourself from being born, which would then prevent you from being born, which would then prevent you from traveling back into time to kill your grandfather.

This doesn't apply here, because:

1. Sailor Moon is in the future, changing your future, won't result in changing your past to somehow prevent yourself from being born.

If something happening to the present self erases the future self that's the same principle as the grandfather paradox, the erasure of the past. It's not that her being in the future changes the future, it seems more like her presence in the future affecting the past of the future self. Of course it's also just a generic time paradox. Some verses treat two of the same person in the same time as a paradox that does some great harm even as other verses don't.

2. Sailor Moon was the one being erased, not her future self. The one in the wrong dimension was being erased. Not the future version. If it was Grandfather paradox, the future self would be the one that is getting erased.

Wait, other people said it was the future version being erased. If it was the past version that's significant. Especially if the past one was being erased but not the future one, which would suggest at least acausality.

Yes and no.

Tuxedo mask has been killed and both his future self and daughter were unaffected. Later on, his future self began to be erased but his daughter was also unaffected.

Only when the cauldron erased Tuxedo Mask from the timeline, past, present, and future, did ChibiUsa disappear.

Others are saying it's the StarSeed, some kind of core essence I presume. Can you explain the StarSeed to me, and/or explain what tells us the cauldron erased him from time?

 

[AsterReal]

Others are saying it's the StarSeed, some kind of core essence I presume. Can you explain the StarSeed to me, and/or explain what tells us the cauldron erased him from time?

They are essentially fundamental metaphysical aspects of verse accepted as Type 1 Concepts and Type 2 Information.

Star Seeds

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Wait, other people said it was the future version being erased. If it was the past version that's significant. Especially if the past one was being erased but not the future one, which would suggest at least acausality.

Yes. It was Sailor Moon who was being erased:



And she also couldn't use her powers in the future, because the silver crystal of the past and the silver crystal of the future were cancelling each other out.

However after an upgrade from Neo Queen Serenity. She became immune to this paradox, to the point where Neo Queen Serenity can possess her.

Others are saying it's the StarSeed, some kind of core essence I presume. Can you explain the StarSeed to me, and/or explain what tells us the cauldron erased him from time?

Sailor Galaxia killed Tuxedo Mask in the past, by taking his star seed, which is the core essence. However, Chibi-usa and King Endymion (tuxedo mask's future self were unaffected). But some time after, Tuxedo Mask's future self started to erase away, and Chibi-Usa was still unaffected. It's only when Galaxia pushed him into the cauldron, erasing his star seed, was he erased across time: past, present, and future. Chibi-usa was erased as well in that moment.

Star seeds are the most fundamental aspect in the series, and the cauldron is the source of everything and where everything returns. I didn't bring them up because they have nothing to do with this CRT.

But the point is, with regards to the actual grandfather paradox situation chibi-usa wasn't affected by her father dying in the past, wasn't affected when her father in the future was fading out of existence, but only was affected by the cauldron which erased things from the timeline.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Yes. It was Sailor Moon who was being erased:


And she also couldn't use her powers in the future, because the silver crystal of the past and the silver crystal of the future were cancelling each other out.

However after an upgrade from Neo Queen Serenity. She became immune to this paradox, to the point where Neo Queen Serenity can possess her.

Sounds like a time paradox.

Sailor Galaxia killed Tuxedo Mask in the past, by taking his star seed, which is the core essence. However, Chibi-usa and King Endymion (tuxedo mask's future self were unaffected). But some time after, Tuxedo Mask's future self started to erase away, and Chibi-Usa was still unaffected. It's only when Galaxia pushed him into the cauldron, erasing his star seed, was he erased across time: past, present, and future. Chibi-usa was erased as well in that moment.

Star seeds are the most fundamental aspect in the series, and the cauldron is the source of everything and where everything returns. I didn't bring them up because they have nothing to do with this CRT.

But the point is, with regards to the actual grandfather paradox situation chibi-usa wasn't affected by her father dying in the past, wasn't affected when her father in the future was fading out of existence, but only was affected by the cauldron which erased things from the timeline.

Someone else said something about how they only die if the star seed is destroyed. Also, you said Tuxedo Mask was erased from the past as well. I see the future being changed in the scans, but can someone confirm whether he got erased in the past as well?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Someone else said something about how they only die if the star seed is destroyed. Also, you said Tuxedo Mask was erased from the past as well. I see the future being changed in the scans, but can someone confirm whether he got erased in the past as well?

No. Tuxedo mask was killed and the other people were killed as well. That person was wrong. Erasing your star seed means your concept is being erased too.

Here he and chibi usa are being erased from a picture taken in the past

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Sounds like a time paradox.

It’s not the grandfather paradox. Which the opposition tried to argue.

Not being able to exist in the same time dimension, as your own self, doesn’t negate the fact these time periods have their own dimension and aren’t continuous.

 

[Random-Helper323]

It’s not the grandfather paradox. Which the opposition tried to argue.

Not being able to exist in the same time dimension, as your own self, doesn’t negate the fact these time periods have their own dimension and aren’t continuous.

I didn't say anything about the grandfather paradox. I said it seems like one of those time paradoxes where two of the same person from two different times existing together causes issues.

No. Tuxedo mask was killed and the other people were killed as well. That person was wrong. Erasing your star seed means your concept is being erased too.
Here he and chibi usa are being erased from a picture taken in the past

Is it the past for current Usagi and Tuxedo Mask, or is it their future and the time traveling daughter's past?

Or simply put, had she been born in their time, reached that age, and had they already taken that picture? The fact that the one next to her vanishing is barely older than the one in the picture stands out to me.

Simpler again, was it:

Picture taken > current day > time chibi travelled from

Or:

Current day > picture taken > time chibi travelled from

 

[AsterReal]

I didn't say anything about the grandfather paradox. I said it seems like one of those time paradoxes where two of the same person from two different times existing together causes issues.

Is it the past for current Usagi and Tuxedo Mask, or is it their future and the time traveling daughter's past?

Or simply put, had she been born in their time, reached that age, and had they already taken that picture? The fact that the one next to her vanishing is barely older than the one in the picture stands out to me.

Simpler again, was it:

Picture taken > current day > time chibi travelled from

Or:

Current day > picture taken > time chibi travelled from

The photo is from the 20th century. Chibiusa is with Usagi and Mamoru, not with Neo Queen Serenity and King Endymion (versions from the 30th century).

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Is it the past for current Usagi and Tuxedo Mask, or is it their future and the time traveling daughter's past?

Or simply put, had she been born in their time, reached that age, and had they already taken that picture? The fact that the one next to her vanishing is barely older than the one in the picture stands out to me.

Simpler again, was it:

Picture taken > current day > time chibi travelled from

Or:

Current day > picture taken > time chibi travelled from

Chibi-usa was born in the 30th Century, and traveled to the past to live and train with current Sailor Moon and Tuxedo Mask.

It would be the first option. The picture was taken sometime in all three of their past while Chibi-usa lived in the past.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Chibi-usa was born in the 30th Century, and traveled to the past to live and train with current Sailor Moon and Tuxedo Mask.

It would be the first option. The picture was taken sometime in all three of their past while Chibi-usa lived in the past.

So it was the time traveling chibi vanishing, not the version of herself from their future?

This seemingly makes her disappearance a time paradox. If Tuxedo dies in the present, Chibi is never born, never exists to time travel, the picture is never taken of her. It's literally the same as Marty and his siblings vanishing from the photograph as his intervention in the past makes it look like his father won't get with his mother.

The part about Tuxedo vanishing is more interesting. But if his concept is erased, that can often impact time, especially if it erases him from the past. We also have to talk about an issue surrounding his deaths not erasing her. If he died the same with or without her time traveling and if he came back to life, that wouldn't erase her, as he would still have been alive to conceive her. The key isn't him being dead in the present but him being unable to conceive her at the time when that happens in the future.

Honestly, the concept erasure is very notable, but this scene actually strongly supports the notion of a single timeline to me. If his erasure from the future prevents her existence, that demonstrates a time that flows from his present to his future and eventually to her future. The only way that could point to separate timelines is if he was erased from all timelines at once, or at least two. For this to work we'd need proof of parallel or divergent timelines, and proof the star seed transcended those timelines to effect them in multiple timelines.

I'm sorry, and I'm open to being convinced otherwise, but I currently must lean towards disagreeing.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Honestly, the concept erasure is very notable, but this scene actually strongly supports the notion of a single timeline to me. I'm sorry, and I'm open to being convinced otherwise, but I currently must lean towards disagreeing.

Just to be clear, my argument in the OP isn't that a timeline doesn't exist. There is a timeline.

The argument is that, the past and future are separate time dimensions and there is a higher timeline that exists to hold and connect them. The opposition have been trying to argue there is no hypertimeline and it is just a regular timeline line but that doesn't work when you consider all the evidence.

The work calls the the time periods dimensions, and it's stated that they are physically separated by rifts in spacetime. There exists an alternate future, which is also called a dimension.

In a normal timeline when, changes in time occur, two things happen:

A. a branching timeline is made
B. the time line is changed from the direction of past to future

There are no branching timelines in Sailor Moon. And changes to the timeline, occur in both directions, from past to future, and from future to past. For example:

Neo Queen Serenity gave Sailor Moon a brand new transformation to use in the past.
Sailor Pluto died in the future and was reincarnated into the past, so the Sailor Pluto in the past is the future version of the Sailor Pluto in the future.

There are also significant changes between the two time dimensions:

Neo Queen Serenity used and has a different Holy Grail. But current Sailor Moon's Holy Grail was created in an art project with Chibi-usa, and then transformed into the real thing.

Hotaru was never supposed to awaken as Sailor Saturn and was supposed to die as a civilian.

The idea that Sailor Moon just has a regular timeline doesn't fit the work and makes no sense given all of these things. What does make sense, is what the work already has stated to be the truth: that the time periods are all each separate time dimensions with their own time and space, embedded in spacetime.

There is an overarching history that connects them, so major events like star seed erasure or chaos (the big bad) warping all of spacetime, will cause history to change, affecting all the time periods; but small changes and even big changes like Hotaru not dying, change local time dimensions, but doesn't cause massive change across all time dimensions. It also explains why the future can change the past without erasing itself.

Chibi-usa also even states, "what could be big enough to change history" meaning that changing history is abnormal, despite the current present being so different from Neo Queen serenity's past.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Just to be clear, my argument in the OP isn't that a timeline doesn't exist. There is a timeline.
The argument is that, the past and future are separate time dimensions and there is a higher timeline that exists to hold and connect them. The opposition have been trying to argue there is no hypertimeline and it is just a regular timeline line but that doesn't work when you consider all the evidence.

I'm aware this is the case. I'm saying that Tuxedo vanishing clearly causes future Chibi to vanish, thus demonstrating that his present flows to the future where he conceived her and then to the future where she traveled back through time, this demonstrating that each of those points in time is directly caused by the previous one, its past. That indicates one timeline, not multiple.

The work calls the the time periods dimensions, and it's stated that they are physically separated by rifts in spacetime. There exists an alternate future, which is also called a dimension.

Two different futures could indicate either two possible futures or two timelines.

In a normal timeline when, changes in time occur, two things happen:

A. a branching timeline is made
B. the time line is changed from the direction of past to future

There are no branching timelines in Sailor Moon. And changes to the timeline, occur in both directions, from past to future, and from future to past. For example:

Neo Queen Serenity gave Sailor Moon a brand new transformation to use in the past.
Sailor Pluto died in the future and was reincarnated into the past, so the Sailor Pluto in the past is the future version of the Sailor Pluto in the future.

This still sounds like a single timeline with lots of time travel so far. Chibi vanishing when Tuxedo does strongly indicate that his inability to ever conceive her leads to her non-existence, literally a typical cause and effect system of a normal timeline.

There are also significant changes between the two time dimensions:

Neo Queen Serenity used and has a different Holy Grail. But current Sailor Moon's Holy Grail was created in an art project with Chibi-usa, and then transformed into the real thing.

Hotaru was never supposed to awaken as Sailor Saturn and was supposed to die as a civilian.

This sounds like maybe two parallel timelines. If this change was caused by Chibi's time travel but also doesn't change the future that at least sounds acausal.

The idea that Sailor Moon just has a regular timeline doesn't fit the work and makes no sense given all of these things. What does make sense, is what the work already has stated to be the truth: that the time periods are all each separate time dimensions with their own time and space, embedded in spacetime.

There is an overarching history that connects them, so major events like star seed erasure or chaos (the big bad) warping all of spacetime, will cause history to change, affecting all the time periods; but small changes and even big changes like Hotaru not dying, change local time dimensions, but doesn't cause massive change across all time dimensions. It also explains why the future can change the past without erasing itself.

If Hotaru is alive and a sailor in the present but explicitly never became one in the future, that indicates parallel timelines, although some types of acausality could also allow for that. Can people elaborate on this?

 

[Killerdrone123]

I'm aware this is the case. I'm saying that Tuxedo vanishing clearly causes future Chibi to vanish, thus demonstrating that his present flows to the future where he conceived her and then to the future where she traveled back through time, this demonstrating that each of those points in time is directly caused by the previous one, its past. That indicates one timeline, not multiple.

Two different futures could indicate either two possible futures or two timelines.

This still sounds like a single timeline with lots of time travel so far. Chibi vanishing when Tuxedo does strongly indicate that his inability to ever conceive her leads to her non-existence, literally a typical cause and effect system of a normal timeline.

This sounds like maybe two parallel timelines. If this change was caused by Chibi's time travel but also doesn't change the future that at least sounds acausal.

If Hotaru is alive and a sailor in the present but explicitly never became one in the future, that indicates parallel timelines, although some types of acausality could also allow for that. Can people elaborate on this?

I want to point out that even though Chibiusa possesses her own Star Seed which, by definition, means she should not cease to exist unless her own Star Seed is destroyed she is still erased immediately after her father and his Star Seed are destroyed. This directly implies a clear causal link between the two

The destruction of her father and his Star Seed should not have affected her at all. However, her instant erasure establishes a blatant causal link between the two, which only makes sense if they share the same timeline rather than existing as completely separate or branching entities.

Also you are correct they do have accausality that's why it takes Kamen's starseeds to get destroyed for him to follow a normal causality and be unable to conceive chibi usa which leads to her erasure

Not to mention Sailor Pluto is also guardian of time corridor herself making her immune to many time based shenenigans so overall it just haxs

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I'm aware this is the case. I'm saying that Tuxedo vanishing clearly causes future Chibi to vanish, thus demonstrating that his present flows to the future where he conceived her and then to the future where she traveled back through time, this demonstrating that each of those points in time is directly caused by the previous one, its past. That indicates one timeline, not multiple.

Chibi usa was erased because her star seed, which is a type 1 concept, is dependent on the existence of her dad's star seed. It's not simply a matter of just causality as per conceptual manipulation page: "Each concept is linked with its respective "object". In this way, altering the concept will change every object linked to it in the same way the concept itself was changed."

She was fine when he died in the past. Him dying in the past means that he wouldn't have her in the future, so the timeline would have to erase her at that moment, but it didn't. Her father in the future then later began to disappear but that didn't affect her.

This isn't a Back to the Future scenario, because she was only erased, but all the things that she caused still remained. The present timeline didn't change. Sailor Moon's Eternal Transformation required her, Sailor Moon's Super Transformation required her.

If Tuxedo mask star seed erasure, caused her to be erased because his erasure means she would never be born, then that would extremely change the entire timeline. It would rewrite everything.

So its' not just a matter of causality.

This still sounds like a single timeline with lots of time travel so far. Chibi vanishing when Tuxedo does strongly indicate that his inability to ever conceive her leads to her non-existence, literally a typical cause and effect system of a normal timeline.

This sounds like maybe two parallel timelines. If this change was caused by Chibi's time travel but also doesn't change the future that at least sounds acausal.

It would have to be that the entire future is acausal, not just a few characters.

If Hotaru is alive and a sailor in the present but explicitly never became one in the future, that indicates parallel timelines, although some types of acausality could also allow for that. Can people elaborate on this?

Sailor Saturn and Hotaru are absent from Chibi-Usa's future.

 

[Vietthai96]

Sailor Saturn and Hotaru are absent from Chibi-Usa's future.

No, almost the entire Outer Senshi except Sailor Pluto are absent from Chibi-Usa's future because they were not introduced until the 3rd Arc, the Infinity Arc. Sailor Pluto was introduced first because she is involved with time and is the Keeper of the Door leading to the Corridor of Space-Time. Your argument makes no sense because the retroactive introduction of characters is a thing. Based on your logic, DBZ and DBS are different timelines because Beerus and God of Destruction were not introduced in DBZ

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

almost the entire Outer Senshi except Sailor Pluto are absent from Chibi-Usa's future

Thank you for agreeing with me Viett. Also, we see the future after the 3rd arc and they are still missing.