Regarding Abstract Existence (as a whole) and HDE.

[SweetDao]

The Abstract Concept, unless it's like the Abstract Concept of space or distance, wouldn't have a size. It's a thing that stuff participates in. So yeah, the HDE is talking about the size of him while AE is his nature.

That's straightforward, thank you, sir.

Since you're here, however, I'd like to ask, what about the case of Ghost/incorporeal or intangible entities, can we give them HDE if they can exist in a 4D space, for example? Or would it be a very peculiar case/give nothing at all?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Being a Ghost or incorporeal ultimately does not impact HDE. HDE just means it takes four+ vectors to plot your physical presence in a geometric space. Having no matter wouldn't effect it as long as the creature itself has some "form" that can be plotted within that space.

So you can have a 6D Ghost if the Ghost extends into six spatial dimensions, even if it has no matter or doesn't interact with matter normally.

 

[SweetDao]

Being a Ghost or incorporeal ultimately does not impact HDE. HDE just means it takes four+ vectors to plot your physical presence in a geometric space. Having no matter wouldn't effect it as long as the creature itself has some "form" that can be plotted within that space.

So you can have a 6D Ghost if the Ghost extends into six spatial dimensions, even if it has no matter or doesn't interact with matter normally.

So Ghosts or Incorporeal beings are "still somewhat physical" (an excess of language) but just not the same as regular beings, hence why they can have HDE?

So stuff that are 100% abstract, like a soul or the mind wouldn't fall into HDE (unless specific cases were such concepts are dimensioned ig), if I got it right.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So Ghosts or Incorporeal beings are "still somewhat physical" (an excess of language) but just not the same as regular beings, hence why they can have HDE?

So stuff that are 100% abstract, like a soul or the mind wouldn't fall into HDE (unless specific cases were such concepts are dimensioned ig), if I got it right.

HDE is ultimately occupying a space with more than three spatial dimensions, like the page says:

or in layman's terms, if they possess more than three dimensions.

Following this same principle, a 4-dimensional being would be capable of moving through an additional, perpendicular direction incomprehensible to lower-dimensional beings, and this can be generalized unto any higher number of dimensions.

You can have souls be higher-dimensional as well, but they're required to occupy a space of some kind. The thing that excludes something from HDE is if they occupy no space at all.

 

[SweetDao]

You can have souls be higher-dimensional as well, but they're required to occupy a space of some kind. The thing that excludes something from HDE is if they occupy no space at all.

Yeah, but if a soul actively occupies some space, it means it has some sort of physicality? Because if not, any character with HDE right now would also have an HDE soul/Mind by default, which makes little sense imo.

Also, when you use the term "space", do you mean, strictly speaking, "taking up physical space"? Because if so, Ghost/Mind/Soul or whatever that actively takes up such "space" would be dimensioned as a result (which can happen in a specific verse) even if that's weird ig.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah, but if a soul actively occupies some space, it means it has some sort of physicality?

Yes. An incorporeal being still has a physical outline to it, even if said outline is generally uninteractable. Like a Soul from Bleach would have HDE is Bleach qualified for it. Even if they're incorporeal generally, they still occupy a defined area in space.

do you mean, strictly speaking, "taking up physical space"?

It means having a defined outline that extends into higher mathematical dimensions. The thing itself doesn't need to be tangible for it to count, it just has to have dimensions that can be measured in 4+ spatial axis.

 

[SweetDao]

Yes. An incorporeal being still has a physical outline to it, even if said outline is generally uninteractable. Like a Soul from Bleach would have HDE is Bleach qualified for it. Even if they're incorporeal generally, they still occupy a defined area in space.

It means having a defined outline that extends into higher mathematical dimensions. The thing itself doesn't need to be tangible for it to count, it just has to have dimensions that can be measured in 4+ spatial axis.

Alright, so all in all, we seem to agree that even if they don't have the same "physicality", anything that has HDE needs to have some sort of "physical outline" (even if different from what normal physicality may look like). If that's what you mean, then we're good sir.

 

[Hecky2222]

Yes. An incorporeal being still has a physical outline to it, even if said outline is generally uninteractable. Like a Soul from Bleach would have HDE is Bleach qualified for it. Even if they're incorporeal generally, they still occupy a defined area in space.

It means having a defined outline that extends into higher mathematical dimensions. The thing itself doesn't need to be tangible for it to count, it just has to have dimensions that can be measured in 4+ spatial axis.

Regarding that Reiner opened staff thread could you share your thoughts there also(since mods seem to have different opinions) and if thats possible give @SweetDao permission to write?

 

[Reiner04]

The Abstract Concept, unless it's like the Abstract Concept of space or distance, wouldn't have a size.

I don't think Abstract concept of spacetime will be any different than, lets say, Abstract concept of love, circle, sqare, will, etc. All of them are concepts, fundamentally same. Space, time, circle, love, they do not exist inside concepts but merely dependent on it, or interdependent (depending on the type of it).

 

[Hecky2222]

Ye no, I wasted almost my whole day discussing it with @SweetDao. AE having HDE makes no sense, debatable about incorpeal stuff

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Now that I think about it actually, aren't you guys basically arguing all AE/Incorporeal characters have BDE1? AE/Incorporeal characters don't lack spatiotemporal features, they still possess them. Something the BDE page literally goes over, so wouldn't it make more sense why they can, in fact have HDE with this in mind?

 

[SweetDao]

Now that I think about it actually, aren't you guys basically arguing all AE/Incorporeal characters have BDE1? AE/Incorporeal characters don't lack spatiotemporal features, they still possess them. Something the BDE page literally goes over, so wouldn't it make more sense why they can, in fact have HDE with this in mind?

That's because, as Qawsedf said, we assume that those incorporeal beings still have a "physical outline" even if I don't think it makes much sense.

Regarding AE1 tho, I think it's not explicitly stated, but it wouldn't be that idiotic to assume that those characters do have BDE 1 by default, yeah (or at least, something similar to it, something that comes with the package of AE1, you could say). I doubt it makes sense to say that a concept can "wither away with time" or "get twist away by space".

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Regarding AE1 tho, I think it's not explicitly stated, but it wouldn't be that idiotic to assume that those characters do have BDE 1 by default, yeah (or at least, something similar to it, something that comes with the package of AE1, you could say)

I mean, idk how you could have something similar to BDE1 since it's a pretty unique ability, but I can get behind what you're saying ig

 

[SweetDao]

I mean, idk how you could have something similar to BDE1 since it's a pretty unique ability, but I can get behind what you're saying ig

Well, for example, if somehow, there was a profile of a rock character (as in, an entity that is a rock) on the wiki, they wouldn't have "soul manip immunity/mind manip immunity" even if that's obvious (due to their nature) that's how I see it, but in any case, we'll see what how the staff thread will conclude.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Yeah I see what you mean

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

That's because, as Qawsedf said, we assume that those incorporeal beings still have a "physical outline" even if I don't think it makes much sense.

Regarding AE1 tho, I think it's not explicitly stated, but it wouldn't be that idiotic to assume that those characters do have BDE 1 by default, yeah (or at least, something similar to it, something that comes with the package of AE1, you could say). I doubt it makes sense to say that a concept can "wither away with time" or "get twist away by space".

I think at least type 1 concepts would have some form of BDE1 at least, but well, becuase we currently give practically any mention of "concept of X" type 1 as long as they're independent, it causes a lot of problems with BDE1. This ultimately leads to many things that actually shouldn't be the more realistic definition of "concepts" (one that Ultima likes to use), such as conceptual energies and similar thing.

And this in the end also has cases where those same "conceptual energies of X concept" can "fill up" some space, even though that is nonsense when we talk about BDE1 things, and perhaps even an anti feat.

So giving all type 1 concepts BDE1 would include these, which isn't the best thing we can do (tbh I'm wondering when these kinds of things will start getting removed from CM1 ratings, I remember Ultima saying they want to change the definition of concepts a long time ago).

Type 2 tho, are dependent on space-time (reality) they govern, and sometimes they're also just "the set of all those particulars itself" given a name "concept" (this ultimately leads to the same problem as with type 1), so type 2 have less reason to have any form of BDE at all.