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The Dark Tower Cosmology Update

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Para_Pala_Zula

Para_Pala_Zula

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Hello. Some time ago, I created this Cosmology page, and my intention was to make the existing Cosmology page on this wiki more comprehensive with only minimal changes. Therefore, the purpose of this CRT is to transfer the cosmology of The Dark Tower to the wiki as it appears on my blog, without proposing any upgrades or downgrades.
​

(Please write your thoughts here, not in the comments section of the cosmology blog)
  • Some of the changes include:
  1. Removing personal commentary
  2. Adding more detailed explanations on the subject
  3. Rearranging complex and randomly ordered quotes into longer, more comprehensive passages in proper sequence
  4. Editing the page based solely on the novels and The Dark Tower: The Complete Concordance, since the comics contradict the novels
  5. Removing the current transcendence attributed to the Prim
Additionally, I would like to revise the current The Dark Tower page on the wiki. As Jockey also mentioned in a CRT that I cannot fully recall, much of what is written there feels like complete fan speculation. For example, referring to Pennywise as a divine being, even though the series never explicitly describes him as such. This also means that The Dark Tower profiles need to be updated both in terms of tiering and sources. For some reason, the Imgur images are not loading for me; when I am less busy, I may open another CRT to address this issue.

Note: You are free to share your thoughts on the topic, but I did not open this CRT with the intention of suggesting any upgrade or downgrade. Depending on the approval outcome, I will reflect my blog onto the wiki.​
 
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Following. Had quick run up from your cosmology blog.
And please next time make better editing. I can't absolutely get are you trying to argue Infinite layers into Baseline or Infinite Metas

There's night there so I will share my full thoughts tmrw
 
Para_Pala_Zula said:
I guess it's just infinite layers baseline
Click to expand...
I see it is just better rewording of cosmology structure then? Compared it to old one and just saw it has more words and explanations.

Only thing you have to reword is 4 additional layers since we already accepted High 1A Endless + 4 layers into Baseline. by rewording or deleting word of "meta'. cuz it seemed like you are arguing "MMMMQS".

Personally reading both blogs I have very big doubts about scaling ngl and wanted to make a rebuttal there. But since it is just suggestion to reworking bit explanations of accepted blog put me in agreeing. Cuz I see you are not upscaling or downgrading(yet). Whatever doubts I have about accepted scaling can be done later in different topic. So ye looks good, pretty simple to understand. Agree
 
Hecky2222 said:
I see it is just better rewording of cosmology structure then? Compared it to old one and just saw it has more words and explanations.

Only thing you have to reword is 4 additional layers since we already accepted High 1A Endless + 4 layers into Baseline. by rewording or deleting word of "meta'. cuz it seemed like you are arguing "MMMMQS".

Personally reading both blogs I have very big doubts about scaling ngl and wanted to make a rebuttal there. But since it is just suggestion to reworking bit explanations of accepted blog put me in agreeing. Cuz I see you are not upscaling or downgrading(yet).
Click to expand...
To be honest, antvasima told me that the person who updated the The Dark Tower profiles is actually unreliable. (Even though he didn’t specify in what way they were unreliable.) And when I checked that person’s profile, I really did come across some disturbing things.
Anyway, since the comics and the novels contradict each other, I removed the comics. (This indirectly moved the Prim Sea one layer lower.) And the current page mostly consisted of careless, randomly placed quotes.
Hecky2222 said:
Whatever doubts I have about accepted scaling can be done later in different topic. So ye looks good, pretty simple to understand. Agree
Click to expand...
I’m not very knowledgeable about these matters, but in order to implement this idea, I only need the staff members’ approval, right?
 
Para_Pala_Zula said:
I’m not very knowledgeable about these matters, but in order to implement this idea, I only need the staff members’ approval, right?
Click to expand...
Yes + it doesn't matter anyway. You just revised current cosmology without scaling change. Placed in order and it didn't affect scaling.

I would cover scaling of cosmology with @SweetDao later. For now I agree with current justifications and replacing what you said
 
Hecky2222 said:
Yes + it doesn't matter anyway. You just revised current cosmology without scaling change. Placed in order and it didn't affect scaling.

I would cover scaling of cosmology with @SweetDao later. For now I agree with current justifications and replacing what you said
Click to expand...
Okay, thank you very much.
 
Udlmaster said:
Since I was asked, the only major concern I have (on my quick glance through) is the sources don't have the pages listed on them (Personally like that so any double checking is instant)

I'll give it a read over, though it may take a bit since it's not annotated, so I'll post again when I've given it a proper read through.
Click to expand...
Thank you greatly. 🙏
Mr. Bambu said:
I have read books 1-4 of the Dark Tower. My understanding is that all the Crazy Shit occurs in the later books. Not much help here, I'm afraid.
Click to expand...
Okay. No problem. 🙏
 
Udlmaster said:
the only major concern I have (on my quick glance through) is the sources don't have the pages listed on them
Click to expand...
I actually considered doing that, but the page numbers of The Dark Tower can vary depending on the publisher. On top of that, the number and placement of pages can also differ between hardcover and paperback editions, which made it impossible for me to include that in the sources section.
 
Para_Pala_Zula said:
I actually considered doing that, but the page numbers of The Dark Tower can vary depending on the publisher. On top of that, the number and placement of pages can also differ between hardcover and paperback editions, which made it impossible for me to include that in the sources section.
Click to expand...
Super easy fix is an extension for Chrome that can site books for you, there's a few I'm aware of like "Cite this for me" which is useful for refencing in essays btw.
 
I have a small issue with the part about “the other final” because, if I'm correct, the novel IT was released in 1986, well before Gan was introduced into the work, because his first appearance, if I'm not mistaken, was around 2004, so we can safely assume that it is actually Gan in this passage, but mysteriously introduced in 1986 and for good in 2004, especially since there is very little evidence of the other final's existence, because after the IT novel, he is never mentioned or appears in any novel, as if by chance when Gan was introduced.
 
IvarUHQ said:
I have a small issue with the part about “the other final” because, if I'm correct, the novel IT was released in 1986, well before Gan was introduced into the work, because his first appearance, if I'm not mistaken, was around 2004, so we can safely assume that it is actually Gan in this passage, but mysteriously introduced in 1986 and for good in 2004, especially since there is very little evidence of the other final's existence, because after the IT novel, he is never mentioned or appears in any novel, as if by chance when Gan was introduced.
Click to expand...
You’re right. However, when Gan and the Other are examined in depth, they seem like different characters.
  • Gan was born from the Prim and created the worlds, whereas the Other existed before everything.
  • In the comics, Maerlyn is the one who can harm Gan, and in the novels, his counterpart is the Crimson King, but the Other is interpreted as literally the author above everything.
  • In Insomnia, the Crimson King ascends to the higher levels of the Tower through the Deadlights. This indirectly implies that his Deadlights are aware of the Tower and even Gan. However, while almost everyone in the series is aware of Gan, the Deadlights—which encompass the entire cosmology—were unaware of the Other’s existence.
  • Additionally, although the Other’s existence was initially hypothetical, this ambiguity is resolved when, upon Pennywise’s defeat, it personally tells Bill that he did a great job.
 
Would it be possible to get an opinion here, especially regarding Final Other? @Jason_Voorh
Para_Pala_Zula said:
You’re right. However, when Gan and the Other are examined in depth, they seem like different characters.
  • Gan was born from the Prim and created the worlds, whereas the Other existed before everything.
  • In the comics, Maerlyn is the one who can harm Gan, and in the novels, his counterpart is the Crimson King, but the Other is interpreted as literally the author above everything.
  • In Insomnia, the Crimson King ascends to the higher levels of the Tower through the Deadlights. This indirectly implies that his Deadlights are aware of the Tower and even Gan. However, while almost everyone in the series is aware of Gan, the Deadlights—which encompass the entire cosmology—were unaware of the Other’s existence.
  • Additionally, although the Other’s existence was initially hypothetical, this ambiguity is resolved when, upon Pennywise’s defeat, it personally tells Bill that he did a great job.
Click to expand...
I don't know the verse as well as you do, honestly, but I'm just giving my opinion about Final Other. In the meantime, the author could have changed the way he uses Gan. I was just saying that it's strange that it was never mentioned again after Gan was introduced. So, regarding Gan's anti-feats in relation to the comparison of properties that you say are distinct, it seems to me that he shares the same properties except for being “named the author of everything.” Here, the author can be understood either in a literal sense, as a narrative author, or as the creator of everything, regarding Pennywise or Maturin, which implies that he is their creator, I cannot say for sure that it was Gan who created them. However, if Gan is the origin of all things and everything flows from his navel, it goes without saying that he exists within the structure because, as I understand it, Pennywise is beyond the macroverse, that same structure contained within the Dark Tower? So if you can tell me more or dispute certain points where I am wrong, then please do so!
 
IvarUHQ said:
Would it be possible to get an opinion here, especially regarding Final Other? @Jason_Voorh

I don't know the verse as well as you do, honestly, but I'm just giving my opinion about Final Other. In the meantime, the author could have changed the way he uses Gan. I was just saying that it's strange that it was never mentioned again after Gan was introduced. So, regarding Gan's anti-feats in relation to the comparison of properties that you say are distinct, it seems to me that he shares the same properties except for being “named the author of everything.” Here, the author can be understood either in a literal sense, as a narrative author, or as the creator of everything, regarding Pennywise or Maturin, which implies that he is their creator, I cannot say for sure that it was Gan who created them. However, if Gan is the origin of all things and everything flows from his navel, it goes without saying that he exists within the structure because, as I understand it, Pennywise is beyond the macroverse, that same structure contained within the Dark Tower? So if you can tell me more or dispute certain points where I am wrong, then please do so!
Click to expand...
Gladly.
The term “author” comes from being the creator of everything. Even for Gan, he is not described within the series as the creator of absolutely everything; he is only referred to as the creator of universes/worlds. Apart from that, he is not described as the creator of all that exists, unlike the Other. In fact, if beings such as the Guardians are protecting the Beams within his body, how could that make Gan a power above everything?
 
Well, Ultima seems to plan to do so eventually. 🙏
 

Para_Pala_Zula​


I disagree with your proposal / CRT, especially with the "all possible worlds". The verse cannot go beyond 2-A, and even this 2-A is below a "normal" 2-A because it doesn't contain timelines where the Crimson King won. Otherwise, it would destroy the Tower itself.

Seven
Standing outside, Roland had judged the Tower to be roughly six hundred feet high. But as he peered into the hundredth room, and then the two hundredth, he felt sure he must have climbed eight times six hundred. Soon he would be closing in on the mark of distance his friends from America-side had called a mile. That was more floors than there possibly could be—no Tower could be a mile high!—but still he climbed, climbed until he was nearly running, yet never did he tire. It once crossed his mind that he’d never reach the top; that the Dark Tower was infinite in height as it was eternal in time. But after a moment’s consideration he rejected the idea, for it was his life the Tower was telling, and while that life had been long, it had by no means been eternal. And as it had had a beginning (marked by the cedar clip and the bit of blue silk ribbon), so it would have an ending.
Soon now, quite likely.
The light he sensed behind his eyes was brighter now, and did not seem so blue. He passed a room containing Zoltan, the bird from the weed-eater’s hut. He passed a room containing the atomic pump from the Way Station. He climbed more stairs, paused outside a room containing a dead lobstrosity, and by now the light he sensed was much brighter and no longer blue.
It was…
He was quite sure it was…
It was sunlight. Past twilight it might be, with Old Star and Old Mother shining from above the Dark Tower, but Roland was quite sure he was seeing—or sensing—sunlight.
He climbed on without looking into any more of the rooms, without bothering to smell their aromas of the past. The stairwell narrowed until his shoulders nearly touched its curved stone sides. No songs now, unless the wind was a song, for he heard it soughing.
He passed one final open door. Lying on the floor of the tiny room beyond it was a pad from which the face had been erased. All that remained were two red eyes, glaring up.
I have reached the present. I have reached now.
Yes, and there was sunlight, commala sunlight inside his eyes and waiting for him. It was hot and harsh upon his skin. The sound of the wind was louder, and that sound was also harsh. Unforgiving. Roland looked at the stairs curving upward; now his shoulders would touch the walls, for the passage was no wider than the sides of a coffin. Nineteen more stairs, and then the room at the top of the Dark Tower would be his.
“I come!” he called. “If’ee hear me, hear me well! I come!”
He took the stairs one by one, walking with his back straight and his head held up. The other rooms had been open to his eye. The final one was closed off, his way blocked by a ghostwood door with a single word carved upon it. That word was

ROLAND.

He grasped the knob. It was engraved with a wild rose wound around a revolver, one of those great old guns from his father and now lost forever.
Yet it will be yours again, whispered the voice of the Tower and the voice of the roses—these voices were now one.
What do you mean?
To this there was no answer, but the knob turned beneath his hand, and perhaps that was an answer. Roland opened the door at the top of the Dark Tower.
He saw and understood at once, the knowledge falling upon him in a hammerblow, hot as the sun of the desert that was the apotheosis of all deserts. How many times had he climbed these stairs only to find himself peeled back, curved back, turned back? Not to the beginning (when things might have been changed and time’s curse lifted), but to that moment in the Mohaine Desert when he had finally understood that his thoughtless, questionless quest would ultimately succeed? How many times had he traveled a loop like the one in the clip that had once pinched off his navel, his own tet-ka can Gan? How many times would he travel it?
“Oh, no!” he screamed. “Please, not again! Have pity! Have mercy!”
The hands pulled him forward regardless. The hands of the Tower knew no mercy.
They were the hands of Gan, the hands of ka, and they knew no mercy.
He smelled alkali, bitter as tears. The desert beyond the door was white; blinding; waterless; without feature save for the faint, cloudy haze of the mountains which sketched themselves on the horizon. The smell beneath the alkali was that of the devil-grass which brought sweet dreams, nightmares, death.
But not for you, gunslinger. Never for you. You darkle. You tinct. May I be brutally frank? You go on.
And each time you forget the last time. For you, each time is the first time.
He made one final effort to draw back: hopeless. Ka was stronger.
Roland of Gilead walked through the last door, the one he always sought, the one he always found. It closed gently behind him.

Eight
The gunslinger paused for a moment, swaying on his feet. He thought he’d almost passed out. It was the heat, of course; the damned heat. There was a wind, but it was dry and brought no relief. He took his waterskin, judged how much was left by the heft of it, knew he shouldn’t drink—it wasn’t time to drink—and had a swallow, anyway.
For a moment he had felt he was somewhere else. In the Tower itself, mayhap. But of course the desert was tricky, and full of mirages. The Dark Tower still lay thousands of wheels ahead. That sense of having climbed many stairs and looked into many rooms where many faces had looked back at him was already fading.
I will reach it, he thought, squinting up at the pitiless sun. I swear on the name of my father that I will.
And perhaps this time if you get there it will be different, a voice whispered—surely the voice of desert delirium, for what other time had there ever been? He was what he was and where he was, just that, no more than that, no more. He had no sense of humor and little imagination, but he was steadfast. He was a gunslinger. And in his heart, well-hidden, he still felt the bitter romance of the quest.
You’re the one who never changes, Cort had told him once, and in his voice Roland could have sworn he heard fear… although why Cort should have been afraid of him—a boy—Roland couldn’t tell. It’ll be your damnation, boy. You’ll wear out a hundred pairs of boots on your walk to hell.
And Vannay: Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
And his mother: Roland, must you always be so serious? Can you never rest?
Yet the voice whispered it again
(different this time mayhap different)
and Roland did seem to smell something other than alkali and devil-grass. He thought it might be flowers.
He thought it might be roses.
He shifted his gunna from one shoulder to the other, then touched the horn that rode on his belt behind the gun on his right hip. The ancient brass horn had once been blown by Arthur Eld himself, or so the story did say. Roland had given it to Cuthbert Allgood at Jericho Hill, and when Cuthbert fell, Roland had paused just long enough to pick it up again, knocking the deathdust of that place from its throat.
This is your sigul, whispered the fading voice that bore with it the dusk-sweet scent of roses, the scent of home on a summer evening—O lost!—a stone, a rose, an unfound door; a stone, a rose, a door.
This is your promise that things may be different, Roland—that there may yet be rest. Even salvation.
A pause, and then:
If you stand. If you are true.
He shook his head to clear it, thought of taking another sip of water, and dismissed the idea. Tonight. When he built his campfire over the bones of Walter’s fire. Then he would drink. As for now…
As for now, he would resume his journey. Somewhere ahead was the Dark Tower. Closer, however, much closer, was the man (was he a man? was he really?) who could perhaps tell him how to get there. Roland would catch him, and when he did, that man would talk—aye, yes, yar, tell it on the mountain as you’d hear it in the valley: Walter would be caught, and Walter would talk.
Roland touched the horn again, and its reality was oddly comforting, as if he had never touched it before.
Time to get moving.
The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.
- Source: Dark Tower, Book #7

The Tower is a finite structure; different floors of the Tower contain parts of the same timeline (parts of Roland's life).
There is no "Higher dimension > lower dimension" transcendence between floors.
 
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Other stuff:

Different floors are limited to different timelines (whens and wheres). We have different versions of New York, for example.

"Did these people once upon a time use
their doors to vacation in various wheres and whens of their choice? Did they
use the power of the Beams to turn certain levels of the Tower into tourist
attractions?"
- The Dark Tower, book #7.

"Lamla, the stoat-headed taheen, pushed his
way to the forefront and raised one furred fist to his forehead. Flaherty
returned the salute impatiently. “What’s down theah, Lam? Do you know?”

Flaherty himself had never been below the
Pig. When he traveled on business, it was always between New Yorks, which meant
using either the door on Forty-seventh Street between First and Second, the one
in the eternally empty warehouse on Bleecker Street (only in some worlds that
one was an eternally half-completed building), or the one way uptown on
Ninety-fourth Street. (The last was now on the blink much of the time, and of
course nobody knew how to fix it.) There were other doors in the city—New
York was lousy with portals to other wheres and whens—but those were the
only ones that still worked.

And the one to Fedic, of course. The one up
ahead."
- The Dark Tower, book #7.

I think that "The Final Other" is Gan or just a different name or face of Gan:

"He looked at Stephen King’s unnaturally
twisted body beneath the left front wheel of the blue vehicle and thought Good!
with unthinking savagery. Good! If someone has to die here, let it be you!
To hell with Gan’s navel, to hell with the stories that come out of it, to hell
with the Tower, let it be you and not my boy!"
- The Dark Tower, book #7.

Anyway, the Crimson King is in the same weight category with Gan:

"And the Dark Tower? Stephen King’s version of
the Dark Tower? Or Gan’s version, or the Prim’s version? Lost forever,
all of them. And that sound you hear? Why, that must be the Crimson King,
laughing and laughing and laughing from somewhere deep in the Discordia. And
maybe Mordred the Spider-Boy, laughing along with him."
- The Dark Tower, book #7.

More stuff about the Breakers, who were destroying the Beams (so the verse cannot be beyond 2-A):

"There is a Tower, lady and gentlemen, as
you must know. At one time six beams crisscrossed there, both taking
power from it—it’s some kind of unimaginable power-source—and
lending support, the way guy-wires support a radio tower. Four of these Beams
are now gone, the fourth very recently. The only two remaining are the Beam of
the Bear, Way of the Turtle—Shardik’s Beam—and the Beam of the
Elephant, Way of the Wolf—some call that one Gan’s Beam."
- The Dark Tower, book #7.

“Listening to Trampas’s head, I came to see
that they considered me the catch of the century, maybe of all time, the one
truly indispensable Breaker. I’d already helped them to snap one Beam and I was
cutting centuries off their work on Shardik’s Beam. And when Shardik’s
Beam snaps, lady and gentlemen, Gan’s can only last a little while. And when
Gan’s Beam also snaps, the Dark Tower will fall, creation will end, and the
very Eye of Existence will turn blind."
- The Dark Tower, book #7.

Bessa (Gan's wife, a character of the same weight category) is a canon character she was mentioned in the book as well.

"James Cagney—the taheen who was
standing with Gaskie in the foyer of the Feveral Hall dormitory when the
trouble started, remember him?—saw what was going to happen and began
yelling at the guards who were staggering out of Damli’s west wing, red-eyed
and coughing, some with their pants on fire, a few—oh, praise Gan and
Bessa and all the gods—with weapons"
- The Dark Tower, book #7.

Mr. Bambu said:
I have read books 1-4 of the Dark Tower. My understanding is that all the Crazy Shit occurs in the later books. Not much help here, I'm afraid.
Click to expand...

Most of the anti-feats also come from the latest books (the same anti-feats exist in comics as well).
 
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Conclusion​

The Final Other is at the level of Infinite Layered High 1-A with four additional layers, since he is the writer who is the creator of everything, including Maturin and Pennywise, and because he perceives the entire cosmology, including the Deadlights, as a fiction within a part of his mind.

Jason, buddy, is it you?

Ahhhh, the same fanon interpretations of the "Final Other" (who is just another name or face of Gan) appear again. It was already debunked before (2 pages of debates).
 
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