TenSura LN Revision - Cosmology Section Addition

[Bahaha]

Also this should be NEP2, it is already a non-existent void so naturally it's NOT-existent but it's also seemingly beyond traditional nothingness so it's also NOT-non-existent. NOT(existence & non-existence) is NOT-existence OR NOT-non-existence which Hell is.

 

[Hecky2222]

I overall share view with @Cipher72. Personally I think layers(Either countless or infinite) makes sense.

Got the idea from here.

Graham's NEP is way different case. Normal NEP is bound by Logic/Reason. You can ask about it MGK knowledgeable members. I don't think his case would help you in this matter

 

[Eikichi_Sensei]

I'm pretty sure those are above Hell and not the other way around, since Hell is just treated as a "world" inside the Otherworld.
Those that materialize in the cardinal world need bodies of the same nature as the substance in the cardinal world, so I don't think their bodies would still be of the same nature as the Otherworld once they manifest

If information has existence and nonexistence, if this "void" contains no information because it erases it, then it makes no sense for it to be superior in nonexistence; I only see it as a container for that world.

And why do you mention bodies?

I thought hell was going to be just Nep 1 or 2 and not its inhabitants.

 

[Bahaha]

Then that by in itself isn't much in terms of layers, only what's shown so far i.e. at least 1 layer.

So I don't see how infinite layers work here unless shown that there's actual layers of hell that correspond with its depth i.e. infinite layers of hell, and that each layer is more nonexistent than the previous one.

The scan already shows that going down one depth causes it go become more non-existent which you agree with. However the depths of Hell is bottomless so no matter how much you go down it would never end meaning it has infinite depth.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Then that by in itself isn't much in terms of layers, only what's shown so far i.e. at least 1 layer.

So I don't see how infinite layers work here unless shown that there's actual layers of hell that correspond with its depth i.e. infinite layers of hell, and that each layer is more nonexistent than the previous one.

if you go from the base level of hell to deeper, and that becomes one layer, you can conclude that by going deeper there's an addition of one layer

now if you can go deeper without limit, deeper and deeper infinitely, the layers keep increasing. The base of the argument is that the reason for a layer between baseline and the depth of hell is, well, X doing deeper.

 

[Bahaha]

Could we get some staff to review this? They could help clear things out

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I overall share view with @Cipher72. Personally I think layers(Either countless or infinite) makes sense.

Graham's NEP is way different case. Normal NEP is bound by Logic/Reason. You can ask about it MGK knowledgeable members. I don't think his case would help you in this matter

I'm pretty sure that's an aspect, not nature, no? Graham's page writes Reason/Logic in aspects.

The only possible thing I found which could be used to argue NEP2 is that their NEP2 is based on their lacking of a conceptual NEP1 source (?)
But that would be the same for tensura as well since heart core is accepted as conceptual aspect for beings.

Could we get some staff to review this? They could help clear things out

Already pinged like 7 staff. Will prolly take time before they come tho

 

[Nonynho]

Insane good work, agree with everything

 

[RM97]

The scan already shows that going down one depth causes it go become more non-existent which you agree with. However the depths of Hell is bottomless so no matter how much you go down it would never end meaning it has infinite depth.

It doesn't say anything about "One Depth". In fact there is no such thing as "One Depth". It says "got down to the depths". So a general statement of going deeper into hell which would only be 1 layer.

It was a true void of nothingness, a Hell only the higher spiritual life-forms could endure…and once you got down to the depths, even those beings couldn’t survive.

if you go from the base level of hell to deeper, and that becomes one layer, you can conclude that by going deeper there's an addition of one layer

now if you can go deeper without limit, deeper and deeper infinitely, the layers keep increasing. The base of the argument is that the reason for a layer between baseline and the depth of hell is, well, X doing deeper.

But that's not how it works though. Unless its ad-verbatim stated that going deeper and deeper makes it more nonexistent or that there's levels/layers of depths of hell each more nonexistent than the other, then it won't work.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I'm pretty sure that's an aspect, not nature, no? Graham's page writes Reason/Logic in aspects.

The only possible thing I found which could be used to argue NEP2 is that their NEP2 is based on their lacking of a conceptual NEP1 source (?)
But that would be the same for tensura as well since heart core is accepted as conceptual aspect for beings.

If I remember correctly, Graham is the concept of nothingness, and "becomes emptier", thus they gained their NEP 2.

 

[Cipher72]

Would lacking 0 be just deeper into 0?

Lacking "0" in the sense you aren't "non-existent" (0) but rather more fundamentally non-existent (2) that can't be achieved by merely reducing one's non-existent (layers into 0) nature then yes.

Fam can you provide an example i still have no idea how that shit works until now.

Ok so think of it like this,
There's a character "A" said character becomes non-existent (0) and then someone managed to erase that character deepening his Non-existent nature or making him more Non-existent. That would be layers into NEP-1. Whereas if that character somehow managed to achieve a state of non existence that's fundamentally different from non-existence (0) then that character would be NEP-2.
I will give a really bad analogy to explain.
You know how Dimensional scaling works right ? Like you can use higher degrees of Infinity to get Higher Dimensional AP well layers into NEP-1 is like that. The NEP itself is more non-existent but NEP-2 is like 1-A which you can't reach via simply adding more Infinities or in this case "becoming more Non-existent" but this is just my interpretation so best to wait for a knowledgeable mod to explain better ig.

 

[Hecky2222]

I'm pretty sure that's an aspect, not nature, no? Graham's page writes Reason/Logic in aspects.

The only possible thing I found which could be used to argue NEP2 is that their NEP2 is based on their lacking of a conceptual NEP1 source (?)
But that would be the same for tensura as well since heart core is accepted as conceptual aspect for beings.

Ehhh everything in MGK is bound by Reason. And Graham That's very long topic. I remember discussing how they got NEP 2 in cord and asked why their case without further elaboration won't work for others. You could tag Dereck(He probably helps since he knows NEP lot) or other MGK supporters who knows about NEP there. But with arguments you gave right now I don't see NEP 2 right now.

Probably better arguments and reasoning might work

 

[Eikichi_Sensei]

If information has both existence and non-existence, if this "void" contains no information because it erases it, then it makes no sense that it is not superior to non-existence type 1.

It must be nep 2.

And if it isn't, then the 0 mentioned after the collision between negative and positive energy is nep 2.

 

[Cipher72]

If information has both existence and non-existence, if this "void" contains no information because it erases it, then it makes no sense that it is not superior to non-existence type 1.

I can somewhat get behind this but it would still be layers into NEP-1 which well "superior to non-existence type 1." just not more fundamentally different.
If

Existence = 1
Non-existence = 0
Information = 0&1
Somehow this Void erases that (0&1) and makes it into a different type of non-existence that's ¬{(0),(1),(0&1)}

Then yes

And if it isn't, then the 0 mentioned after the collision between negative and positive energy is nep 2.

Yes I agree with this, I think that should be nep-2 as the non-existence is different from the non-existence of the Void (0)

 

[Eikichi_Sensei]

I can somewhat get behind this but it would still be layers into NEP-1 which well "superior to non-existence type 1." just not more fundamentally different.

Are there any examples of this?

By the way, isn't existence and non-existence related to non-duality, or is it only relevant when it is neither?

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Lacking "0" in the sense you aren't "non-existent" (0) but rather more fundamentally non-existent (2) that can't be achieved by merely reducing one's non-existent (layers into 0) nature then yes.

How do we distinguish layers of 0 from 2 tho? Like both are still just more nonexistent, but supposedly in different ways.

But then, how do you achieve "NEP2" in example? I mean you said it's by somehow achieving a state of nonexistence that's fundamentally different, but how fundamentally different?

If I remember correctly, Graham is the concept of nothingness, and "becomes emptier", thus they gained their NEP 2.

Aren't Heart Core accepted as conceptual stuff too? And that aspect of Demons (already NEP1) is erased when they go down the depths.

Ehhh everything in MGK is bound by Reason. And Graham That's very long topic. I remember discussing how they got NEP 2 in cord and asked why their case without further elaboration won't work for others. You could tag Dereck(He probably helps since he knows NEP lot) or other MGK supporters who knows about NEP there. But with arguments you gave right now I don't see NEP 2 right now.

Probably better arguments and reasoning might work

I'll look into it more when I have the time

If information has both existence and non-existence, if this "void" contains no information because it erases it, then it makes no sense that it is not superior to non-existence type 1.

It must be nep 2.

And if it isn't, then the 0 mentioned after the collision between negative and positive energy is nep 2.

I also think this can work, but... where did you get the "information has non-existence" part?

 

[Eikichi_Sensei]

I also think this can work, but... where did you get the "information has non-existence" part?

The subspace has position coordinates, etc.

If it doesn't work, I'll just leave it as nep 1 and 0 as nep 2.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

The subspace has position coordinates, etc.

If it doesn't work, I'll just leave it as nep 1 and 0 as nep 2.

I don't think that will work, butttt

I just remembered something, and I think that should prove info has existence and Non-existence.

By it Hell's void would erase existence information from IP, whereas depths would erase both existential and Non-existential info from IP

I'll elaborate on it in a few min

 

[RM97]

How do we distinguish layers of 0 from 2 tho? Like both are still just more nonexistent, but supposedly in different ways.

But then, how do you achieve "NEP2" in example? I mean you said it's by somehow achieving a state of nonexistence that's fundamentally different, but how fundamentally different?

Lets say information composes the verse where 1 and 0 forms both existence and Nonexistence respectively. If you erase this information and you're left with a void which is incomprehensible and cannot be described or depicted by information, then that's NEP2. This hinges on Paraconsistent Physiology too since 1 & 0 forms the Binary State or Duality. For example, see Digimon (especially Negamon).

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I don't think that will work, butttt

I just remembered something, and I think that should prove info has existence and Non-existence.

By it Hell's void would erase existence information from IP, whereas depths would erase both existential and Non-existential info from IP

I'll elaborate on it in a few min

Well now, here

So basically. Hell (baseline) also does have information. Why? Cuz Rain, Mizari and Guy were fighting in Hell before the creation of the world, and Guy destroyed their heart core. That means they had heart cores even in hell:

I’ve known Sir Guy for a long time. Looking back, I knew him even before the creation of the world. How long ago was that, you ask? How the hell should I know, huh? Do you remember the exact time of day you were born? You don’t, do you? It’s that sort of thing. I’ll be ignoring stupid questions from now on, thank you.

Regardless, having been derived from the great spirit of darkness, I was invincible. Or I thought I was. I was a little full of myself, I won’t deny that. Consequently, I committed a grave mistake. I joined hands with one of my sisters, a person I had an affinity for, and I attempted to stage a surprise attack on one of our other siblings, someone stronger than us. Looking back, I was such an idiot. He was incredibly strong. I thought fighting him two-on-one would make for an easy victory, but we lost big-time.

The person who beat us was the demon lord Guy Crimson, known at the time as Rouge. And while I’m at it, the sister who fought him with me was Vert, now known as Mizeri. We’re very good friends. My work is Mizeri’s to do, and her salary is mine to receive, after all. We’re still coworkers today.

“Raine! Quit goofing off and get the cleaning done.”

Tch. I just introduced her, and already she’s tearing into me. Stupid loudmouth.

“What did you say?” she asked.
“Nothing, nothing.”
“No? I hope not.”

Close one there. Mizeri’s got a real sharp mind like that. She always notices whenever I take a break, and it’s painfully difficult to pull the wool over her eyes. I’ll get back to cleaning—just for a bit, anyway, so she won’t get mad at me again. Regardless—right, right, I was in the middle of my introductions. So Mizeri and I lost to Sir Guy, but that unveiled a certain fact to us.

If you can break a demon’s “core,” they’ll be eradicated for good. However! If you’re a talented Primal like all of us are, you can resurrect yourself no matter what happens to you!!
OTL V17C4
___________
I’ve known Guy-sama for a long, long time, even before the creation of heaven and earth maybe? How long ago was that? Who knows? I mean, do you even remember exactly the time you were born? No? That’s it. These mundane questions are a pain in the ass, just ignore them. Back to the topic. I am invincible because I was derived from the Great Spirit of Darkness…or so I thought. I’m not going to deny I got a little carried away because of that. I made a huge mistake. I teamed up with a like-minded person and attacked whoever looked stronger than I was. Looking back now, I was such a dumbass. That one bastard was too strong. I thought I could beat him two-on-one, but he just wiped the floor with both of us. That guy who beat us was Rogue, the Red Primordial a.k.a. Demon Lord Guy Crimson-sama. By the way, it was Vert, the Green Primordial or Mizeri, who challenged Guy-sama with me. We are very good friends. My job is Mizeri’s and Mizeri’s salary is mine.

“Raine! Stop slacking and get your cleaning done!”

Tsk. I was introducing you to her but she’s being an annoying *****.

“What did you say?”
“N-no, nothing.”
“No? You better not.”

Phew, that was a close one. Mizeri is very perceptive. She always catches me slacking off and it’s difficult to pull one over on her. I’ll just keep on cleaning before she gets mad at me.

So, yeah, I still haven’t finished my introduction. Mizeri and I lost to Guy-sama, but this revealed one important fact. A demon will be extinguished when its heart core is shattered. However, we, the Primordials, can recover from any condition!
Slimereader

It's just that Hell (baseline)'s information is already NEP.

However, Testarossa had obtained the ultimate skill Belial, Lord of the Underworld. That was the spark allowing her to perfectly control this dangerously powerful ability. The synergistic effect was beyond imagination, granting Testarossa an absolute advantage that made her enemies seem pitiful by comparison. Moss, who had reached the number-two spot in Blanc’s force at one point, was fully aware of the terrifying nature of this ability. Life cannot exist in Hell; even the soul is destroyed and turned into energy. It was a true void of nothingness, a Hell only the higher spiritual life-forms could endure…and once you got down to the depths, even those beings couldn’t survive.That was exactly the sort of realm Testarossa could summon with Nihilistic World.
V22C1 OTL

Well, conventional souls here are converted into energy (nonexistent). But you see, Souls are already pure energy (positive energy to be precise):

So is the data written directly onto this energy? Not exactly. First, there’s the ego, a set of amorphous wavelengths within the soul, and the group of data particles that surrounds it. This is known as the heart, and that’s where all the data is stored. The crystallized energy that covers this heart is what we call the soul.
V13 Epilogue OTL
-------------
If that was the case, was it possible to directly imbue information to energy—Well, that was unlikely.

First of all, there would be plenty of “selfs” that existed on different wavelengths, and the combined entity of Information Particles would encapsulate them—thus forming a core that included all of the information.

The crystallization of the energy that encapsulated one’s core would be their “soul.”
Slimereader

So it's like Abyss converts existent souls to nonexistent souls. And for demons that already exist there accustomed to it, they'd already be in the latter form. So "information" is written on both existent energy and nonexistent energy.

On the other hand, the Void of the Abyss erases information:

The thing void energy fed on was data particles—to be more precise, it erased the information written in these particles. No command has any meaning at all if it cannot be communicated. Even if all the requisite information is synchronized instantly between giver and receiver across time and space, if the “data particles” the information is written into are interfered with…
V22C1 OTL

Well, to be specific, this "Void Energy" is talking about the void summoned by other characters. And well, they never summoned anything from Hell, they always summoned the Void directly from the Abyss. (I can't really show they didn't summon the baseline Hell cuz, well, they never did, there's nothing to showcase)

Incidentally, Ultima’s specialty, the dark magic Nihilistic Vanish, was a spell that mimicked this “depths of Hell” mechanism. This, however, was the real thing, no mere imitation. It didn’t just work across a wider area; it could turn a whole region of the planet into a hellscape, making it easy to understand how dangerous this spell was. In the event (likely or not) Testarossa failed to control it, the void energy would flow out endlessly, and the world would be swallowed up by the ever-expanding abyss and collapse upon itself.
V22C1 OTL
---------
ゼラヌスに向けたのと同じ、底なしの闇がヴェガを包み込もうとしていた。それは、深しん淵えんより来きたる〝虚無〟の力だ。ディアブロもゼギオン同様──いや、それ以上に、自由自在に〝扉〟を開けられるようになっていたのだった。故に、数字などでは測れないのである。

The same bottomless darkness that had descended upon Zeranus a moment earlier—the power of the void, straight from the abyss—was about to envelop Vega next. It was just like how Zegion was able to open the “door” at will; if anything, Diablo was better at it than him. There was no longer any measuring him by numbers.
V21C4 OTL

So I think we can assume "Voids" here talk about Voids from the Abyss" cuz they never actually summoned the Voids from baseline Hell.

Thus:

Hell: Nonexistent Information
Cardinal World: Existent Information
Depths of Hell: Erases information itself, both existent and nonexistent.

Lets say information composes the verse where 1 and 0 forms both existence and Nonexistence respectively. If you erase this information and you're left with a void which is incomprehensible and cannot be described or depicted by information, then that's NEP2. This hinges on Paraconsistent Physiology too since 1 & 0 forms the Binary State or Duality. For example, see Digimon (especially Negamon).

Similar to Cipher's and Eikichi's analogy, I see. In that case, would the above suffice?

 

[Ultimuru]

---

This thread will be 15 pages long. I feel that in my old bones

Astral's arguments makes sense to me

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

---

This thread will be 15 pages long. I feel that in my old bones

Astral's arguments makes sense to me

What about my arguments?

 

[Ultimuru]

What about my arguments?

Already agreed to them on page 1

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

Already agreed to them on page 1

 

[Incomprehensibleexistence]

Astral's arg makes sense for this case

 

[Cipher72]

Are there any examples of this?

Yes Graham

By the way, isn't existence and non-existence related to non-duality, or is it only relevant when it is neither?

Existence and Non-existence is a duality if that's what you are asking.

How do we distinguish layers of 0 from 2 tho? Like both are still just more nonexistent, but supposedly in different ways.

Dimensionality & 1-A
You can become "more Non-existent" (deeper into 0) which is layers, and then there's a different type of non-existence that's more fundamentally non-existent that's NEP-2(2) it has to be a different type of non-existence.

What about my arguments?

Qualitatively superior

 

[CJunitilarian]

Just came back on but just want to clarify
Astral has removed the type 2 layering for space-time aspect or not

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Just came back on but just want to clarify
Astral has removed the type 2 layering for space-time aspect or not

It's been removed

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

Qualitatively superior

As expected of me

 

[CJunitilarian]

It's been removed

Aha, agree with everything else then

 

[Cipher72]

Hell: Nonexistent Information
Cardinal World: Existent Information
Depths of Hell: Erases information itself, both existent and nonexistent.

Yuh works I think

 

[Ferno1234]

I think layered NEP-1 would fit more

Does that even exist as a thing here? On Vsbattles?

 

[Ronaldinhxt1]

Hello, today I would like to propose a new section for the cosmology page.
It's the Underworld.

Table of Contents​

I will get straight into it. Demons live in the Underworld, also known as Hell (and this isn't referring to the Abyss/Depths only since in the next scan it says the Abyss is something much more):


Hell is a "true void of nothingness":


Again shown multiple times by how you can summon Emptiness from Hell:







Note: The full name of "Negative Energy" is Negative Existence Value (aka an energy that is existentially the lack of something, not just energy with negative charge, if someone ever even tried to think of it like that).

Kanji is 負の存在値(マイナ スエネルギー) which means Negative Existence Value (Minus Energy)

It is also called Darkness of Hell:



It is the complete opposite of Positive Energy, or Life force, or Existential Energy:



Nature & Aspects
Well, after showing that it's a Void, it's time to set what type of aspects and nature it gets. For starters, the default is Nature Type 1 (Baseline) for Hell, as a "World of Nothingness:


Now for the Aspects;

Aspect 1 & 2; Soul (And Concept)
Hell is called a "Spiritual World", but there are also other Spiritual Worlds:


Yet Hell in particular is a World of Nothingness. Additionally, here, the Soul is converted into Nothingness energy (aka Negative Existence value). And we aren't just talking about the "layer" of the Soul (aka excluding the heart core) either, we're talking about the entirety of it, as shown in the later sections:

Thing is, "Souls" are also the conceptual aspect of beings. So it adds aspect type 2 as well. Another easier way to show it is how the Soul is composed of Spiritons:




Which also happen to be something that <Magic Nullify> can erase/nullify:



Yet it can't erase Emptiness from Hell:


Aspect 3; Mind
Well, you see, before the Soul comes the layers covering it, and that includes the Spiritual Body, which is the Mind:


To reach the Soul in any way, it is a must to pass through/destroy the Spiritual Body and Astral Body, the layers covering the Soul:


Otherwise simply isn't possible other than for someone like Veldanava. So, that means the World of Nothingness would have to convert this aspect into Nothingness as well before it, well, destroys the Soul.

Aspect 4; Information
Voids, in general, also devour Information Particles. Or to be specific, they erase the information written on Information particles:


Information Particles are these:

Spoiler: Information Particles

They are present in all things that exist in the world, inside every type of substance/particle:

They store information of that thing:


They exist at the very core of creation, or alternatively translated, are the foundation of the World:


Again, they exist in every facet of the world:

So yeah, Aspect 4 (Information).

Aspect 5; Space & Time (Layered??), Law, Causality

For baseline, the nothingness of Hell also devours Space-Time itself:




Anyways, moving on; Hell is essentially a World of Darkness, or THE World of Darkness, with "Darkness" being an actual Attribute, which is Laws & Principles/Logic of the world:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tensura_Cosmology_Page_(Light_Novel)#Attributes

So something like following a Law that is nonexistent. Same thing as nonexistent concepts or following the concept of nothingness in analogy. This by the way can also be used for Aspect 2 (Concepts) since those Laws/Attributes are accepted as Type 1 Concepts

Laws exist behind cause and effect:

Depths of Hell
Also called the Abyss of Hell. Basically Hell has a thing called "Depth". Beings that can exist in the regular Hell (world of nothingness), which would be, of course, its residences (Demons), cannot exist in the depths of hell.

Oh, also, Demons are indeed accustomed to the Underworld:

(Well it's natural since they literally live there)

Before anyone asks; Hey, don't demons have souls too? Well yes, but the structure and composition of each world varies, and that difference would extends to the Soul as well:

Each world has different Laws, so taking the Demon World has having different laws regarding the Soul is not hard.

Guy, the first demon born in hell, the oldest of the primal demons, is called the Personification/Embodiment of Darkness (Nothingness):


Anyways, thing is, Abyss/Depth is INFINITELY deep/bottomless:


Sooo, how do we classify the "Depths"? Layered NEP1? NEP2?. In any case, I think it will be infinite layers in whichever option it ends up at, since surviving deeper would also require a more nonexistent self, which goes on infinitely.

TL;DR
A wording like this would do for the section:

Votes​

Agree:
@Astral_Trinity439, @CJunitilarian, @Curcuma_x_curcuma, @K'rimuru, @Cipher72, @Ultimuru, @Mido02, @Re5yh, @Hecky2222, @Ronaldinhxt1 (except NEP2), @MetaChronos, @AstraphelNoctis4, @Berga14, @Mbpoops, @Verlice_tempest, @Lycoris4812 (unsure about layers), @ExcelsisBerny (everything except infinite layers),

Disagree:
@ExcelsisBerny (with infinite layers)

Neutral:


(While disagreeing or being neutral on something, please tell us which part you disagree or are neutral with.)
Note: The majority had contentions with the Space-Time layered part so it was removed and changed to baseline (for baseline Hell).

After seeing the argument about NEP2, I agree with everything.

 

[AstraphelNoctis4]

I'm pretty sure that's an aspect, not nature, no? Graham's page writes Reason/Logic in aspects.

The only possible thing I found which could be used to argue NEP2 is that their NEP2 is based on their lacking of a conceptual NEP1 source (?)
But that would be the same for tensura as well since heart core is accepted as conceptual aspect for beings.

I might be wrong, but it was based on the concept of order, Nothingness has order, whereas Graham's Nothingness lacks even that, if anything.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Why is there comments of Graham being the concept of nothingness as if he's a god when he isn't...? Are we good in here???

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Why is there comments of Graham being the concept of nothingness as if he's a god when he isn't...? Are we good in here???

Using an example of what classifies as NEP2 or not for comparison

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Why is there comments of Graham being the concept of nothingness as if he's a god when he isn't...? Are we good in here???

He is though.... (the non-existent part, not the god part), that was used by their own scalers, to get NEP 2 and layers.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

He is though.... (the non-existent part, not the god part), that was used by their own scalers, to get NEP 2 and layers.

Not in any case similar stop misusing comparision this as a excuse just because you can't prove that on your own. They aren't even remotely similar in any case.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Not in any case similar stop misusing comparision this as a excuse just because you can't prove that on your own. They aren't even remotely similar in any case.

I never claimed they were similar cases; I only explained how Graham got his NEP. But yeah, I disagree with using that as an example for this, since it's a different verse in the first place (nor is it 1 to 1 example).

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

He is though.... (the non-existent part, not the god part), that was used by their own scalers, to get NEP 2 and layers.

He is NOT -the- concept of nothingness, that doesn't even make sense

and who is 'their own scalers'...? You might be getting that info from mg larpers, fam