Symbol of Fear vs Final Bastion of Reason (Tomura Shigaraki vs Julius Novachrono) [5-15-7]

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

i vote julius for kachon's reasons

7-9-9 right now


I could literally change my vote to show how ******* bias I am for Black clover

 

[JoeDM021]

after some deeper thought ive decided to switch my vote to incon

 

[Machmatej]

He did not know about how his time magic worked at 100%

He did not know Julius could for example steal time to heal himself, nor his precog, and even less how his grimoire worked

He could possibly knew about time stop and EE/age manipulation for seeing or being informed when Julius killed some of his men and stopped the time of Rades and such

And he even believed light magic was supreme because his speed was insane and was just "gg, you can't touch me", Julius showed him how wrong he was and that is why Patry used the swords to kill all the citizens and tired him out, because otherwise he would have lost


So like, if Shiggy truly can just scan Julius abilities with search, go faster with blitz amps etc, then like I said earlier, this fight is Julius vs Patry but Julius is not holding back (something that was also an advantage to Patry) but this patry (shiggy) is way better at everything

I don't care who votes who anyway, I am not even trying to convince anyone to vote incon, just explaining things and giving my opinion

this is literally how Shigaraki would handle it. Julius kept struggling to catch Patry even with his rapidly improving predictions. Shigaraki would just be a better Patry, in the sense he can use his own quirk combos and adaptation to rapidly increase his own speed. Eventually he'll just outspeed Julius' predictions after running around for a bit, and eventually he'll succumb to decay.

 

[Rodriiogo]

I don't understand this argument at all. If Julius has intent to finish the fight, in any way, whether that's killing Shigaraki, hurting him, or restraining him, Danger Sense will pick up that malice, and has been shown preventing blitzes before. Are you saying that Julius is just an emotionless slate with so little threat level that Danger Sense just has nothing to pick up on?

I'm saying danger sense doesn't warn him of him being a threat to his life until he goes to use the attacks themselves, it would warn him he has hostility towards him but his power is so weak it wouldn't even matter to Shigaraki. Danger sense does NOT pick up on the threat of his life until the attack is about to be used especially if Julius isn't even planning on using it at that very moment. The main argument from Shigaraki's side right now has been "Danger sense will pick up his threat so he wont play around and immediately blitz" I'm saying that won't happen because Danger Sense has no way of telling how much of a danger his attacks are until he actually intends to use them on Shigaraki. It isn't information analysis.

None of that is on par with the levels of speed Shigaraki has adapted to. None of that even really seems like a speed blitz to me. Sure, he teleports behind Patry and surprises him, but Patry still reacts and avoids his attacks. At one point he even has a whole exestential crisis and inner monologue before starting to move. The same thing would happen here with Shigaraki.

I'm pretty that is still very close to a blitz advantage but to note this further. When not using Mana Zone, Patry's light magic was fast enough to save the people from being in Julius attacks before he could do anything and even dispering the magic from his hand with Julius expiclitly noting that it was "faster" which is why Patry was able to do that before he did anything.

As I showed, with the mana zone boost, Julius is already able to keep up with the same light magic and with anticipation slowly adapt over it with his anticipation getting faster and faster.

I don't think anyone said that a speed blitz would be his first move. They just acknowledged that if Julius puts enough pressure on him at the start, then he'll resort to that quickly, and he would.

I'm saying that's not true, Julius would not put enough pressure into offensive in the beginning of the fight, he plays defensive and slowly leads towards the best way of winning. Shigaraki will barely have any pressure in the beginning of the fight as Julius will just play defensively. He won't resort to that quickly at all especially when his danger sense is telling him that Julius presence is of someone weak (since it simply detects the power if the person isnt attacking offensively).

That scenario doesn't apply here. Simply having mana wouldn't trigger his information analysis, because Shigaraki's abilities aren't mana-based, nor are they based on any sort of energy system that can be equalized to Mana. Quirks are mainly biological mutations, which means the powers he uses stem from his own body and not some abstract form of life energy.

Mana is simply something that exists in the entire world in black clover and within all people (except the obvious). I think you are confusing mana with magic here, mana is directly connected to one's body, "magic" is something that originates from mana itself but mana would include said biological mutations. Check the terminology part in Black Clover page so you can see the distinction.

I repeated myself multiple times at this point. But Danger Sense on its own isn't that powerful. It's reading someone's threat level and reacting to their ill-intent.

This is the part that I'm talking about. I agree with this but I'm saying this will backfire in the beginning. Shigaraki can sense his threat level and will see his power his weak, he will sense the intent yes, but won't know that Julius can just one shot him until Julius actually has the intent of directing an attack at him. That's why I said it will backfire and he will only truly realise how much of a threat Julius is later in the fight when Julius actually starts using them offensively.

The point from my first argument message is that, because of this, Julius will win, regardless of what you think about the speed of mana zone and stuff, since Shigaraki will not immediatly go for a blitz until Julius goes on the offensive which at that point I mostly favor Julius because of what I said already in this message.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

ulius kept struggling to catch Patry even with his rapidly improving predictions

Technically, Patry was getting faster and Julius while being the slower one, catch up to him with precog developing, Shiggy has instant speedblitzes but Patry was dodging mana zone attacks which are way faster than Julius normal speed (mana skin makes you faster, mana zone is even better and both of this are better than using basic reinforcement magic), Shiggy on the contrary is equal to Julius right of the gate, so at the end, it depends and both of you and leona/rodrigo arguments are equally valid in my eyes

But shigaraki is still a better patry because Patry landed an attack on Julius and if that was shigaraki, he would have won, also that Shigaraki have more abilities to even survive compared to " just speed"

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

. When not using Mana Zone

We explained the same at the same time, bruh moment... Edit: And that was a slower patry as well

 

[Raiden38]

i vote julius for kachon's reasons

Ditto Julius FRA

 

[Lokolokurah]

Changing my vote to Julius after reading all the new arguments

 

[Machmatej]

I'm saying danger sense doesn't warn him of him being a threat to his life until he goes to use the attacks themselves, it would warn him he has hostility towards him but his power is so weak it wouldn't even matter to Shigaraki. Danger sense does NOT pick up on the threat of his life until the attack is about to be used especially if Julius isn't even planning on using it at that very moment. The main argument from Shigaraki's side right now has been "Danger sense will pick up his threat so he wont play around and immediately blitz" I'm saying that won't happen because Danger Sense has no way of telling how much of a danger his attacks are until he actually intends to use them on Shigaraki. It isn't information analysis.

Danger Sense will warn him of the threat level. Even if something is harmless, such as Deku's smokescreen or Black Chains, then Danger Sense picks that up because they have ill-intent towards Shigaraki and have the ability to hinder him, Danger Sense is not limited to things that are a threat to his life, and I don't understand where that misconception comes from. And the main argument for Shigaraki is that he'll register Julius as a threat, sense his intent on finishing the fight quick, and start zooming around like Patry did. And for the record, Search is indeed information analysis, and it constantly scans for weaknesses and openings. It's combination with Danger Sense is what makes Shigaraki untouchable here.

I'm pretty that is still very close to a blitz advantage but to note this further. When not using Mana Zone, Patry's light magic was fast enough to save the people from being in Julius attacks before he could do anything and even dispering the magic from his hand with Julius expiclitly noting that it was "faster" which is why Patry was able to do that before he did anything.

As I showed, with the mana zone boost, Julius is already able to keep up with the same light magic and with anticipation slowly adapt over it with his anticipation getting faster and faster.

This still isn't a blitz advantage. Patry's light magic only outpaced Julius because he was caught off-guard and clearly talking to the Chrono Stasis captives and Asta. And no, him sensing that something was coming but not intercepting the attack doesn't mean he was blitzed. It seems like he just wasn't expecting that speed, and considering his nonchalant reaction to it, I definitely wouldn't say he's far slower than it.

As for his anticipations, he still struggled to catch Patry despite constantly getting faster, and at one point even teleported behind him, which surprised Patry, but he still wasn't able to catch him with Chrono Stasis. The jump in reactions/anticipations just isn't enough for me to see this as a blitz.

I'm saying that's not true, Julius would not put enough pressure into offensive in the beginning of the fight, he plays defensive and slowly leads towards the best way of winning. Shigaraki will barely have any pressure in the beginning of the fight as Julius will just play defensively. He won't resort to that quickly at all especially when his danger sense is telling him that Julius presence is of someone weak (since it simply detects the power if the person isnt attacking offensively).

If his first move is Mana Zone + Chrono Stasis, then yes, that IS playing offensively because he still intends to end the fight instantly. And if Julius opens up with a Mana Zone, then his intent and hostility would just fill the air and force Shigaraki to stay on the move. Him being physically weak wouldn't make Shigaraki just stop caring. Shigaraki always goes for the kill from the start, and intent to incapacitate would still register as hostility, especially within a Mana Zone.

Mana is simply something that exists in the entire world in black clover and within all people (except the obvious). I think you are confusing mana with magic here, mana is directly connected to one's body, "magic" is something that originates from mana itself but mana would include said biological mutations. Check the terminology part in Black Clover page so you can see the distinction.

How are biological mutations such as quirks included in mana? Wouldn't something of a supernatural source, such as quirks, which are not meant to be there in the first place, be closer to anomalies?

This is the part that I'm talking about. I agree with this but I'm saying this will backfire in the beginning. Shigaraki can sense his threat level and will see his power his weak, he will sense the intent yes, but won't know that Julius can just one shot him until Julius actually has the intent of directing an attack at him. That's why I said it will backfire and he will only truly realise how much of a threat Julius is later in the fight when Julius actually starts using them offensively.

The point from my first argument message is that, because of this, Julius will win, regardless of what you think about the speed of mana zone and stuff, since Shigaraki will not immediatly go for a blitz until Julius goes on the offensive which at that point I mostly favor Julius because of what I said already in this message.

And I disagree completely. I already showed examples of Danger Sense picking up intent before attacks or attackers even become a threat. And Danger Sense picks up harmless things as long as they have intent to actually do something to Shigaraki, such as restraining/incapacitation attempts. So Shigaraki being physically much stronger wouldn't make him incapable of registering a threat by someone far weaker.

Shigaraki would instantly feel the hostility as soon as Mana Zone activates, which will force him to go on the move to avoid random instantaneous attacks. His adaptation would accelerate due to the active threat/hindrance, matching and surpassing Julius' own predictions, and eventually he'll either outspeed him passively or get forced into a situation where he has to activate quirk combinations.

That is, in a nutshell, what I have been saying the past 4 pages.

 

[Saqphire]

Swapping to Lucius

 

[Machmatej]

Swapping to Lucius

swap to AFO instead

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

How are biological mutations such as quirks included in mana

Curses for example generate said biological mutations, William have half of his face completely dark and Charlotte has his whole magic being changed by a curse
Curses are another manifestation of mana, if he is refering to anything else I don't know right now, I can't remember others examples right now

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Swapping to Lucius

This means incon or Julius? Or a joke?

 

[Saqphire]

This means incon or Julius? Or a joke?

Julius*, it was autocorrect

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

julius fra.

 

[Zyurtunder13]

From what I'm reading about the arguments I vote Julius

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Changing my vote for Julius one minute before grace ends