Transfomers (Michael Bay) High 7-C+ Removal

[StarShooter80]

The scaling chain is essentially this (going by the profiles):

• RotF Megatron scales to his feat of 1.54 Megatons (Low 7-B).
• 2007 to ROTF Optimus Prime upscales from him, being able to hold his own against that same Megatron, Grindor and Starscream all at once with the upperhand, and is the only person that could defeat the Fallen.
• Starscream and Blackout are still able to harm him in that fight and take attacks from him and still fight, despite being overall weaker than him, and are also weaker than 2007 Megatron (who's inferior to his RotF self) due to how he was depicted in the first film. So while they scales to 1.54 Megatons, its done through some downscaling.
• The current mid-tier Bots like DotM Bumblebee, Ironhide and Ratchet (who are currently the High 7-C+ tiers) downscale from Starscream, as although he can overwhelm two of them at once, they can still harm him, survive attacks from him, fight others comparable as well, etc.

The reason why they're High 7-C+ and not Low 7-B is basically the reverse usage of this rule, where since the mid-tier bots downscale heavily from the main value, and said value is close enough to the cap of the High 7-C+ tier (<1 Megaton) then that means they should scale around there.

However the issue with that is the gap between the two values is simply too large, the difference between the Low 7-B calculation RotF Megatron scales to and the cap for High 7-C+ is 1.54x, that exceeds the unofficial rule of it having to be within the 1.1x to 1.2x. Even the current staff thread discussing about that current standard has no mods agreeing for anything beyond a 1.4x gap.

Also the practice of trying to do apply the method of "upscaling from a value high enough into the + tier" in reverse for heavy downscaling is unheard of(?) the wiki never establishes this it's only ever in the sense of upscaling. The logic isn't necessarily flawed it's just not really an established standard on the wiki.

So with that I have two proposals to replace it:
Proposal 1:

• All the High 7-C+ tiers will instead just be rated as at "At most Low 7-B (1.54 Megatons)" since they downscale from the feat mentioned prior, and scale to a value too high for them to be placed at the cap of High 7-C+.

Proposal 2:

• Perhaps only accounting for their scaling of downscale from high tiers is too generous, so as an alternative it should account for both that and their upscaling from low-tier bots such as Ravage and his 8-B durability feat. Meaning their new tiers would be "At least 8-B (18.8 Tons), at most Low 7-B (1.54 Megatons)".

I lean more towards the latter, though I'm fine with either one being accepted.

 

[Mr._Propeller_Hat]

This should be pretty simple enough

 

[StarShooter80]

This should be pretty simple enough

Which proposal would you go with though?

 

[Drite77]

If people are really going with Low 7-B for Megatron, none of the characters should be 8-B even with an "At least" rating. By all accounts, they are weaker then Megatron, but none of them are almost 100,000x weaker then him

 

[Mr._Propeller_Hat]

Which proposal would you go with though?

First option

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Out of curiosity, is there a reason the mountain statement is limited to the minimum value of a small mountain rather than baseline 7-A? I would imagine a general statement of destroying mountains would warrant AP to destroy mountains in general, but I dunno.

 

[Dalesean027]

Actually if the High 7-C is based off the fallen blast I calculated it does need adjustment since the scan mentioned this:

To unleash this energy, The Fallen has directional emitter arrays in each arm that fire 30-second burst

So I actually need to adjust the full yield for 30 seconds of continuous fire which take the High 7-C value down to 2.7210892e+13 Joules or 6.5 Kilotons (7-C)

 

[StarShooter80]

Out of curiosity, is there a reason the mountain statement is limited to the minimum value of a small mountain rather than baseline 7-A? I would imagine a general statement of destroying mountains would warrant AP to destroy mountains in general, but I dunno.

It's just due to how 2000 feet is already enough for something to be considered a mountain which is why that minimum AP usage is done, like for other profiles that have statements for mountain destruction. So the Low 7-B value is just used as a conservative low ball/minimum for mountain destruction. The Attack Potency page also has a section of just not aligning destruction feats to these tiers just by namesake.

Actually if the High 7-C is based off the fallen blast I calculated it does need adjustment since the scan mentioned this:

To unleash this energy, The Fallen has directional emitter arrays in each arm that fire 30-second burst

So I actually need to adjust the full yield for 30 seconds of continuous fire which take the High 7-C value down to 2.7210892e+13 Joules or 6.5 Kilotons (7-C)

It's not based off that, the value is not large enough to be in that High 7-C+ range and I remember asking Emirp Sumitpo about this months ago and he did confirm it was just from heavy downscaling. Fallen is also far stronger than the mid-tiers, being superior to even RotF Megatron so they're definitely not scaling directly from him.

Though if the calculation needs a rework then why not it wouldn't hurt

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

This seems fine from what I can tell. First option would be fine imo

 

[Drite77]

@StarShooter80 First option was accepted, not the 2nd.

 

[StarShooter80]

@StarShooter80 First option was accepted, not the 2nd.

Yeah that was the one that got applied?

 

[Drite77]

Yeah that was the one that got applied?

What about Soundwave?

 

[StarShooter80]

What about Soundwave?

he was always physically 8-B only his weaponry scaled to the High 7-C+ tiers

 

[Crimson_cordx]

Funny how these feats still get overlooked

 

[Drite77]

Funny how these feats still get overlooked

First should not scale to anybody (Even Quintessa), second is literally irrelevant to these profiles unless one plans to Downgrade (I might in the future)

 

[Crimson_cordx]

First should not scale to anybody (Even Quintessa), second is literally irrelevant to these profiles unless one plans to Downgrade (I might in the future)

Why? Quintessa did the feat, and Optimus scales since he can damage her.

Optimus destroying the Star Harvester should scale to H4-C since that’s his wiki tier

 

[Drite77]

Why? Quintessa did the feat, and Optimus scales since he can damage her.

There is literally nothing that supports Tier 5 outside of that "feat". Even if said feat is legitimate, it is at best an outlier because none of them were ever shown to be on that level and everyone of them have been damaged by far less destructive things. You can honestly say the same to the Tier 7 things but that would require a CRT to fix things.

It even makes the story not make sense, why did none of the Autobots decided to destroy Cybertron in the 3rd and 5th movie? Why did they need Devastator to open part of the Pyramid if they can destroy Cities/Planets? How did Leenox kill someone who can destroy planets/Survive nuclear explosions with a basic grenade launcher? How was Megatron killed by non-nuclear missiles in the 1st movie?

Optimus destroying the Star Harvester should scale to H4-C since that’s his wiki tier

"Durability: Unknown"

 

[Crimson_cordx]

There is literally nothing that supports Tier 5 outside of that "feat". Even if said feat is legitimate, it is at best an outlier because none of them were ever shown to be on that level and everyone of them have been damaged by far less destructive things. You can honestly say the same to the Tier 7 things but that would require a CRT to fix things.

It even makes the story not make sense, why did none of the Autobots decided to destroy Cybertron in the 3rd and 5th movie? Why did they need Devastator to open part of the Pyramid if they can destroy Cities/Planets? How did Leenox kill someone who can destroy planets/Survive nuclear explosions with a basic grenade launcher? How was Megatron killed by non-nuclear missiles in the 1st movie?

This is just generic PIS.

And if that logic worked, Ben 10’s 4-B scaling would need to go too, since the highest calc below that is only H5-A.

Plus, that’s not even Optimus’ only Tier 5/4 feat, since his Spark is comparable to the AllSpark’s — uniting them would cause mutual destruction

"Durability: Unknown"

En, fine so

 

[Drite77]

This is just generic PIS.

Considering the context within the story, it is much more likely to be the contrary, because there are not enough feats to justify a Tier 5-4 rating, there are, clearly, much bigger anti-feats spread within the series to justify such a high rating (Same for the Tier 7 but that's a discussion for another time)

And if that logic worked, Ben 10’s 4-B scaling would need to go too, since the highest calc below that is only H5-A.

I agree, it should go away.

Plus, that’s not even Optimus’ only Tier 5/4 feat, since his Spark is comparable to the AllSpark’s — uniting them would cause mutual destruction

There is nothing in the movies that indicates the AllSpark is a tier 5-4 equipment. The Spark of a Cybertronian is also never stated be where their power comes from, so this does not matter in the slightest. Matter of fact, this premise, "Optimus' spark being as strong as the AllSpark" does not hold up when Megatron was revived to a much stronger form with a small piece of the AllSpark