BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

[PizzaDante67]

we don't know shit about their real speed < hypersonic ,relativistic , ftl , mftl

we can't answer that

I used something in the middle to measure the distance​

Well thats the problem. It would still be calc stacking. Honestly, i dunno why nobody mentioned or proposed to get a speed rating based on Senjumaru‘s Reiatsu traveling across at least 2 realms in less than like 5 seconds. Thats a ridiculous Massively FTL+ feat and depending on how cour 4 handles the final, we might see Yhwach trying to destroy the realms using his darkness.

It looked like that in the manga at least and that would be just as or an even better feat. And only squad 0 members and above would scale to the Senjumaru feat.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/welt-yang-vs-sosuke-aizen-honkai-star-rail-vs-bleach.191661/

 

[Overvoid69]

This still doesn't explain why light rays and flashes of light must be slower than light itself.

It does, because to assume these fictional light attacks are like literal photonic light you have to assume it has a fixed speed like literal light. But obv Ceros don't have a fixed speeds, so this is why fictional light based beams like Cero or a Kamehameha can't be inherently SoL. You have to prove them to be SoL via powerscaling/ feats, there's no inherent value u can attribute them.

i dont understand the chainscaling here ,There are too many inconsistencies to make this work perfectly here

0 incosistencies mind you

As we saw with Stark, the normal cero remains unchanged even if you increase your power

You can just interp that scene of a "ordinary cero" as Shunsui telling stark to throw a gran rey cero or a oscuras, not a ordinary cero.

"Starting with the bala that arrived at 20x the speed of a cero, more than fifty lights gouging the desert one after another.'
Why is cero used as a unit of measurement if its speed is inconsistent?

All this says is Bala speed = 20 * Cero Speed... Ceros can be any diff speed and it wouldn't contradict the information of Balas being 20 x a Cero speed...

Just ask is wiki still denying aroinero dodgin light feat with no acceptable reason

So were arguing for fixed light speed ceros and this, but blaming the wiki?

 

[Soulking22334]

can someone give me the official translation

 

[Hasch]

You didn't answer my question , why did cero remain the same even as Stark grew stronger?

Did it stay the exact same?

 

[Soulking22334]

Did it stay the exact same?

It simply stayed the same

 

[Hasch]

It simply stayed the same

Nothing in that scan says it stayed the same, just that Shunsui believes a Cero of released Starrk's level still isn't strong enough to kill him.

 

[Soulking22334]

Nothing in that scan says it stayed the same, just that Shunsui believes a Cero of released Starrk's level still isn't strong enough to kill him.

"but ordinary cero won't"
I think you should re read it because it literally says they haven't gotten any stronger.

 

[Overvoid69]

"but ordinary cero won't"
I think you should re read it because it literally says they haven't gotten any stronger.

This is just ur super forced interpretation of the text. Ordinary Cero can just be interped as a "Cero" from Stark instead of the stronger "Gran Rey Cero" or "Cero Oscuras".

 

[Hasch]

"but ordinary cero won't"
I think you should re read it because it literally says they haven't gotten any stronger.

No, he isn't comparing between different Cero from different users, just telling Starrk that his normal Cero won't be enough.

 

[Soulking22334]

This is just ur super forced interpretation of the text. Ordinary Cero can just be interped as a "Cero" from Stark instead of the stronger "Gran Rey Cero" or "Cero Oscuras".

I think this text only applies to regular cero

 

[Overvoid69]

I think this text only applies to regular cero

So like u remember when i kinda explained how much faster these character get? Yk see how that kinda leads me into this obv conclusion that ur interp does not work at all for the story?

 

[Soulking22334]

just telling Starrk that his normal Cero won't be enough.

This is an interpretation that differs from the apparent meaning of the text, even though the apparent meaning is consistent with my view.

 

[Overvoid69]

This is an interpretation that differs from the apparent meaning of the text, even though the apparent meaning is consistent with my view.

If u think context isn't important that's all u then

 

[Soulking22334]

So like u remember when i kinda explained how much faster these character get? Yk see how that kinda leads me into this obv conclusion that ur interp does not work at all for the story?

I think what you said is fair enough.



That doesn't change the fact that the series suffers from inconsistency in maintaining a logical balance of power among the characters (chainscaling sucks)


still nothing disprove that cero is light rays/flash and they must be treated accordingly

If u think context isn't important that's all u then

The context here is literally that he's trying to get him to put more effort into fighting

 

[Hasch]

This is an interpretation that differs from the apparent meaning of the text, even though the apparent meaning is consistent with my view.

No, your view is at odds with the meaning of the text, because there's no comparison with other Cero.

Cero is always portrayed as similar to the combat speed of the user.

 

[Soulking22334]

No, your view is at odds with the meaning of the text, because there's no comparison with other Cero.

If the cero's power doesn't increase as his power increases, why wouldn't this apply to any other character?

 

[Overvoid69]

still nothing disprove that cero is light rays/flash and they must be treated accordingly

Im gonna say this one last time: there is no inherent speed value you can give to attack that seems to be light, but doesn't work as one... You'd have to actually powerscale it via feats
It bends and explodes this can't be irl photonic light. therefore u can't make the assumption "cero has to be sol just like irl light" bc it doesn't follow the exact properties of irl light
ur just making all bleach supporters look bad rn by arguing this in the big 2026

If the cero's power doesn't increase as his power increases, why wouldn't this apply to any other character?

A cero increases in power when ur using more Spirit Energy??? U think BOS Ichigo deflecting a Cero from a Gillian, but HM ARC Ichigos Getsuga losing to a Cero from Grimmjow doesn't indicate these things aren't fixed??

That doesn't change the fact that the series suffers from inconsistency in maintaining a logical balance of power among the characters (chainscaling sucks)

Then why are u even trying to powerscale in the first place? Secondly i gave a very consistent scaling chain, but if u wanna say it's incosistent based off vibes ig that's all

 

[Soulking22334]

Im gonna say this one last time: there is no inherent speed value you can give to attack that seems to be light, but doesn't work as one... You'd have to actually powerscale it via feats
It bends and explodes this can't be irl photonic light. therefore u can't make the assumption "cero has to be sol just like irl light" bc it doesn't follow the exact properties of irl light
ur just making all bleach supporters look bad rn by arguing this in the big 2026

A cero increases in power when ur using more Spirit Energy??? U think BOS Ichigo deflecting a Cero from a Gillian, but HM ARC Ichigos Getsuga losing to a Cero from Grimmjow doesn't indicate these things aren't fixed??

Then why are u even trying to powerscale in the first place? Secondly i gave a very consistent scaling chain, but if u wanna say it's incosistent based off vibes ig that's all

You have a valid point here, and I can't argue with that.

 

[Hasch]

Tho ichigo does have a feat of traveling 1000s of kilometers in seconds on his way back from the palace. Using ang size he was about 2000km away from the serieite. He travel this distance in a few seconds since it was during the time people were reacting to him

Yeah either that or just how fast he was flying across the palace while fighting Ywach.

Maybe however the soul palace is invisible so you cant see it regardless even with clear skies

The palace isn't invisible, at least not with the barriers open.

It's just high enough it can't be seen with the naked eye.

Since there is no stated speed, you‘d be using a calc from Ichibei traveling that distance and applying that speed calc for the seiteitei royal palace distance. But don’t take my words as a fact as i‘m still learning all the rules for this site so please correct me if I’m wrong.

It shouldn't count as calc stacking as it uses a stated distance and the timeframe from the anime, people could argue that to be a "calc" but it really isn't any more than using a character's heigh to pixescale something or turning kilometers into meters to get m/s.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

me when i'm in a downplay bleach competition and I look at vsbw

 

[Soulking22334]

me when i'm in a downplay bleach competition and I look at vsbw

reddit overrate them so there must be a balance

 

[Soulking22334]

Im gonna say this one last time: there is no inherent speed value you can give to attack that seems to be light, but doesn't work as one... You'd have to actually powerscale it via feats
It bends and explodes this can't be irl photonic light. therefore u can't make the assumption "cero has to be sol just like irl light" bc it doesn't follow the exact properties of irl light
ur just making all bleach supporters look bad rn by arguing this in the big 2026

can't we use the Principle of Minimal Departure here. Unless something is stated, shown, or otherwise implied to be different than its IRL counterpart, it’s assumed to be the same??

 

[Soulking22334]

real feat or just drawing error

 

[Overvoid69]

can't we use the Principle of Minimal Departure here. Unless something is stated, shown, or otherwise implied to be different than its IRL counterpart, it’s assumed to be the same??

it bending and exploding proves it's not the same as irl light, so it is shown to be different then it's irl counterpart

 

[Soulking22334]

it bending and exploding proves it's not the same as irl light, so it is shown to be different then it's irl counterpart

I don't have an answer to that, but I'll get back to you later.

PLUS what about Negacíon it doesn't bend and explode

 

[Soulking22334]

source?

 

[Infinite9Luck]

I don't have an answer to that, but I'll get back to you later.

PLUS what about Negacíon it doesn't bend and explode

@Soulking22334 nothing wrong in posting pictures, but can you please resize them? so, to make them smaller? Otherwise they clog all the page and the thread.

 

[Droid225]

Hello! I'm totally new here.

In Uryu's profile, what exactly does the Post-Awakening Key mean? Does it refer to after Yhwach used The Almighty against Ichibe and Uryu was released from Senjumaru’s tapestry, or after Uryu used Antithesis against Senjumaru and unlocked those proto-Vollständig wings?

 

[DeathberrySama]

I'm going to post the calc(s) I was talking about despite getting completely aired. I'm sure someone will tweak it or make their own. The pixel scaling isn't shown and there's at least one issue:

Mayuri's Shunpo is imperceptible to Uryu. From the HM Arc, we know Uryu can perceive movements that happen in a very short timeframe. These calcs use 1/3,000,000 seconds, based on Seele Schneider, but this could be an overestimation. This is Uryu's own weapon, it's possible he knew its specifications without having to perceive its vibrations. However, as I posted before somewhere, Uryu could actually perceive Cirucci's vibrations which peak at 1/1,300,000 for a revolution. So Uryu's minimum perception time is equivalent to this and Mayuri perception blitzed him across several metres.

Someone may ask, why are you scaling HM Arc Uryu to SS Arc Uryu? Well, Uryu actually peaked in SS Arc in terms of Quincy powers and Uryu attributes the perception ability to his nature as a Quincy as opposed to ability. The latter is an inference but the former is confirmed in the manga and Bleach Official Character Book Souls Page 157:

Bottom right — 散霊手套 (Sanrei Tetto):

この手甲を装備した白む晩、鍛錬すれば、滅却師として最高に近い力を得られる。

Kono tekkou wo soubi shita shiramu ban, tanren sureba, Kuinshī to ***** saikō ni chikai chikara wo erareru.

“By training through the nights wearing this gauntlet, one can attain power approaching the pinnacle of what a Quincy can achieve.”

 

[Soulking22334]

@Soulking22334 nothing wrong in posting pictures, but can you please resize them? so, to make them smaller? Otherwise they clog all the page and the thread.

next time

I'm going to post the calc(s) I was talking about despite getting completely aired. I'm sure someone will tweak it or make their own. The pixel scaling isn't shown and there's at least one issue:

Mayuri's Shunpo is imperceptible to Uryu. From the HM Arc, we know Uryu can perceive movements that happen in a very short timeframe. These calcs use 1/3,000,000 seconds, based on Seele Schneider, but this could be an overestimation. This is Uryu's own weapon, it's possible he knew its specifications without having to perceive its vibrations. However, as I posted before somewhere, Uryu could actually perceive Cirucci's vibrations which peak at 1/1,300,000 for a revolution. So Uryu's minimum perception time is equivalent to this and Mayuri perception blitzed him across several metres.

Someone may ask, why are you scaling HM Arc Uryu to SS Arc Uryu? Well, Uryu actually peaked in SS Arc in terms of Quincy powers and Uryu attributes the perception ability to his nature as a Quincy as opposed to ability. The latter is an inference but the former is confirmed in the manga and Bleach Official Character Book Souls Page 157:

Bottom right — 散霊手套 (Sanrei Tetto):

この手甲を装備した白む晩、鍛錬すれば、滅却師として最高に近い力を得られる。

Kono tekkou wo soubi shita shiramu ban, tanren sureba, Kuinshī to ***** saikō ni chikai chikara wo erareru.

“By training through the nights wearing this gauntlet, one can attain power approaching the pinnacle of what a Quincy can achieve.”

peak scaling

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Hello! I'm totally new here.

In Uryu's profile, what exactly does the Post-Awakening Key mean? Does it refer to after Yhwach used The Almighty against Ichibe and Uryu was released from Senjumaru’s tapestry, or after Uryu used Antithesis against Senjumaru and unlocked those proto-Vollständig wings?

The former
I made a mistake in my original message lol

 

[AKUTO123]

So were arguing for fixed light speed ceros and this, but blaming the wiki?

?

 

[AKUTO123]

source?

If i dont wrong its should be from ep 213

 

[Overvoid69]

I'm going to post the calc(s) I was talking about despite getting completely aired. I'm sure someone will tweak it or make their own. The pixel scaling isn't shown and there's at least one issue:

Mayuri's Shunpo is imperceptible to Uryu. From the HM Arc, we know Uryu can perceive movements that happen in a very short timeframe. These calcs use 1/3,000,000 seconds, based on Seele Schneider, but this could be an overestimation. This is Uryu's own weapon, it's possible he knew its specifications without having to perceive its vibrations. However, as I posted before somewhere, Uryu could actually perceive Cirucci's vibrations which peak at 1/1,300,000 for a revolution. So Uryu's minimum perception time is equivalent to this and Mayuri perception blitzed him across several metres.

Someone may ask, why are you scaling HM Arc Uryu to SS Arc Uryu? Well, Uryu actually peaked in SS Arc in terms of Quincy powers and Uryu attributes the perception ability to his nature as a Quincy as opposed to ability. The latter is an inference but the former is confirmed in the manga and Bleach Official Character Book Souls Page 157:

Bottom right — 散霊手套 (Sanrei Tetto):

この手甲を装備した白む晩、鍛錬すれば、滅却師として最高に近い力を得られる。

Kono tekkou wo soubi shita shiramu ban, tanren sureba, Kuinshī to ***** saikō ni chikai chikara wo erareru.

“By training through the nights wearing this gauntlet, one can attain power approaching the pinnacle of what a Quincy can achieve.”

1 Major issue: This is base Uryu getting perception blitzed, not transformed Uryu who's "at the peak of his quincy powers"

 

[DeathberrySama]

1 Major issue: This is base Uryu getting perception blitzed, not transformed Uryu who's "at the peak of his quincy powers"

Base Uryu is the peak of his Quincy powers, at this point. The Sanrei Glove allows him to reach his peak, taking it off exceeds that limit.

 

[Droid225]

I am pretty sure there is the title card statement of Senjumaru's reiatsu travelling from the soul king palace to the soul society and human world. So that could easily be FTL for the top tiers. The satellite feat with Arc's accepted end would be good for anyone who scales to or above Fullbring arc Kenpachi which includes Unohana ig.

Bleach TYBW anime Episode 26 summary:

The raw japanese:

強大な霊圧による衝撃が、尸魂界から現世にまで届く。

Every translation to english says something like:

"The shockwave from an overwhelming spiritual pressure reached all the way from the Soul Society to the Human World."

 

[Specterxxxx]

That scan does NOT necessitate Ceros having a fixed speed; that's a significant leap in logic. It wouldn't make sense in the series either.

If you want to get solid Bleach speed scaling, start with Mayuri perception blitzing Uryu, who has a canonical perception time minimum.

There is also ulquioura perception blitzing uryu too.

 

[M11UTD]

Haven’t checked this site in while because most active members said they’ll wait for cour 4 to end before doing new threads.
But why is there so many downgrade threads that seem to be done fast?
I see no new arguments in them, same things from years ago but the only difference is the members who argued for them back then are on a hiatsu now.

 

[Torsin]

We got the official Viz account posting Aizen aura farming edits before GTA 6.