(Staff Needed) Bleach Extrasensorial Perception Layers

[ItsMeat]

Bump

 

[Torsin]

I don't know how this factors in but I was curious about Zanpakuto spirits as well? For example when Zangetsu saved Ichigo from Kenpachi I doubt he was visible to Kenpachi and also Yachiru's zanpakuto spirits which were invisible to Gunael untill she chose to reveal them to him and Isane. Also Yamamoto's invisible flames unable to be seen by Lloyd when he uses Bankai- West. Would this be counted as requiring a minimum number of layers to see them?

 

[ItsMeat]

I don't know how this factors in but I was curious about Zanpakuto spirits as well? For example when Zangetsu saved Ichigo from Kenpachi I doubt he was visible to Kenpachi and also Yachiru's zanpakuto spirits which were invisible to Gunael untill she chose to reveal them to him and Isane. Also Yamamoto's invisible flames unable to be seen by Lloyd when he uses Bankai- West. Would this be counted as requiring a minimum number of layers to see them?

Zanpakto spirits are invisible for everyone except the user…
Also, no, flames are unrelated to anything, it's not about them having resistance, it's about flames at that temperature being impossible to see, due to how hot they are. Moreover, even if you wanted to argue that as resistance, it's magnitude based(because of the heat) so it doesn't qualify for layers.

 

[Torsin]

Zanpakto spirits are invisible for everyone except the user…
Also, no, flames are unrelated to anything, it's not about them having resistance, it's about flames at that temperature being impossible to see, due to how hot they are. Moreover, even if you wanted to argue that as resistance, it's magnitude based(because of the heat) so it doesn't qualify for layers.

One more question what about Pernida's nerves?

 

[ItsMeat]

One more question what about Pernida's nerves?

They are simply too small( literally cell size) to be perceived by most of the cast

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Bump

 

[ItsMeat]

Nvm i'm here

Baseline is good
1st and 2nd Layer is good
I'm shaky on the arrancar alone membrane sight, not a fan
The sonido one is good
The transcendent one is good too
They can't cross over into each other. One is stealth mastery, hiding your presence, while the other is actually being so far above them in capabilities that you can't sense, like god Ki in DBS. They're different types of stacked resistances.
Ichigo scaling over the transcendent layer is fine as well.
So the layers up to the 2nd are valid, the 3rd i don't necessarily like, sonido and transcendent work but they can't scale through each other, and ichigo scaling over the transcendent is good

So, Orihime stuff gets rejected and it goes smth like this:

Soul Physiology - low tier souls: baseline up to 2 layers of EP and Enhanced Perception

Hollow Physiology - low tier Hollows and Arrancars get 1 layer of EP Resistance.

Arrancars get 2 Layers of EP Resistance via Sonido, Fullbringers get the same via Bringer Light (Bringer Light is the othwr technique I was reffering to when talking about Sonido and other twchniques in the OP). I'd suggest this to be indexed as Unconventional Resistance since it's rather done through some technique with stealth mastery effects rather than it being a property of the characters themselves and it works against layered EP despite being the only resistance possessed via these mechanics.

Transcendentals (Aizen, Yhwach) get 3 layers of EP and 2 Layers of Resistance to it.

Deicide Ichigo gets 4 layers of EP and 3 Layers of Resistance to it.

Right?

 

[KingTempest]

mhm

 

[Random-Helper323]

Proof the transcendence gives more resistance than Sonido?

 

[ItsMeat]

Proof the transcendence gives more resistance than Sonido?

It's not more resistance, idk where you got that idea from, both were proposed to be 3 layers and without the Orihime part, they both are 2 layers…

 

[Random-Helper323]

I still have concerns about combining the sensing of power levels with the ability to see them. What we see in regards to seeing them is people who can somewhat see spirits seeing only outlines of Hollows. I don't think we can genuinely stack layers on the ability to see them. I'm fine with a resistance layer for sensing energy though.

 

[Hecky2222]

So two staff agrees with different things from convo here ic?

 

[ItsMeat]

I still have concerns about combining the sensing of power levels with the ability to see them. What we see in regards to seeing them is people who can somewhat see spirits seeing only outlines of Hollows. I don't think we can genuinely stack layers on the ability to see them. I'm fine with a resistance layer for sensing energy though.

Just tell me all your concerns and I will do my best to answer them, including those you've just mentioned

 

[Random-Helper323]

Just tell me all your concerns and I will do my best to answer them, including those you've just mentioned

From what I can tell you're combining the invisibility and resistance to being sensed to make more layers and treating them as the same, implying someone would need three layers of the ability to see ghosts to see a transcendent, even though we see that's not the case. The ability to see the spirit and the ability to sense their power level can't be stacked together to give both more layers. I'm fine with the energy sensing getting some layers, but not the invisibility.

 

[ItsMeat]

From what I can tell you're combining the invisibility and resistance to being sensed to make more layers and treating them as the same, implying someone would need three layers of the ability to see ghosts to see a transcendent, even though we see that's not the case. The ability to see the spirit and the ability to sense their power level can't be stacked together to give both more layers. I'm fine with the energy sensing getting some layers, but not the invisibility.

Ok, so:

●Ep + eyes => sight.
Therefore, something completely invisible has Resistance to EP and Greater Invisibility. However, they are 2 different senses and, as such, things like these are perfectly valid within the story:

●Something that only has Resistance to EP isn't necessarily invisible for the eye.

This is how transcendence works: their reiatsu can't be sensed, yet they are perceivable for the eye. This creates a feeling of "almost like he's not even there".

●And, similarly, something that merely the eye can't see isn't necessarily undetectable via EP.

Hope this answers your concerns

 

[Random-Helper323]

Ok, so:

●Ep + eyes => sight.
Therefore, something completely invisible has Resistance to EP and Greater Invisibility. However, they are 2 different senses and, as such, things like these are perfectly valid within the story:

●Something that only has Resistance to EP isn't necessarily invisible for the eye.

This is how transcendence works: their reiatsu can't be sensed, yet they are perceivable for the eye. This creates a feeling of "almost like he's not even there".

Are you trying to make it so someone needs three layers of ESP, three layers of "I can see ghosts" to see Monster Aizen?

●And, similarly, something that merely the eye can't see isn't necessarily undetectable via EP.

Hope this answers your concerns

Ichigo is blind there, so this doesn't seem relevant to this issue.

 

[ichimojii]

I don't know how this factors in but I was curious about Zanpakuto spirits as well? For example when Zangetsu saved Ichigo from Kenpachi I doubt he was visible to Kenpachi and also Yachiru's zanpakuto spirits which were invisible to Gunael untill she chose to reveal them to him and Isane. Also Yamamoto's invisible flames unable to be seen by Lloyd when he uses Bankai- West. Would this be counted as requiring a minimum number of layers to see them?

Zangetsu stopped time so kenpachi is not going to see him

 

[Random-Helper323]

Zangetsu stopped time so kenpachi is not going to see him

That seemed like time slowed because it was really inside Ichigo's head.

 

[ichimojii]

That seemed like time slowed because it was really inside Ichigo's head.

I don't think so because Ichigo says Zangetsu used shadow on him to move him to his internal world. Even in the databook it says Zangetsu took him to his inner world. Zanpakuto can manifest the at anytime. Renji did this for his training

 

[ItsMeat]

Note: ESP stands for Extrasensory Perception.

Are you trying to make it so someone needs three layers of ESP,

Yes.

three layers of "I can see ghosts"

No…? "I can see ghosts" is the sum of Reikaku & Enhanced Perception (to see invisible stuff). Layers of Resistance to "I can see ghosts" = Layers of Resistance to EP + Greater invisibility.

Ichigo is blind there, so this doesn't seem relevant to this issue.

It is quite relevant, because one summand is enough for "I can see ghosts" to work.

Transcendentals would have 3 Layers of Resistance to ESP and only baseline Invisbility, due to being souls. Nothing else.

As shown, they can see him even without ESP. At the same time, the fact he resists ESP causes them to feel "almost like he's not even here".

 

[Random-Helper323]

Note: ESP stands for Extrasensory Perception.

Yes.

No…? "I can see ghosts" is the sum of Reikaku & Enhanced Perception (to see invisible stuff). Layers of Resistance to "I can see ghosts" = Layers of Resistance to EP + Greater invisibility.

It is quite relevant, because one summand is enough for "I can see ghosts" to work.

Transcendentals would have 3 Layers of Resistance to ESP and only baseline Invisbility, due to being souls. Nothing else.

As shown, they can see him even without ESP. At the same time, the fact he resists ESP causes them to feel "almost like he's not even here".

The issue is you're using the ability to see spirits (soul vision as it's listed) interchangeably with sensing energy. You've been factoring them together in these proposed layers, which makes it look like you're aiming for what's effectively layers of invisibility. I'm fine with the resistance to being sensed, although I'm unsure if Hollows should have their own layer, I'm just trying to ascertain how seeing spirits is being affected here.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

I think that maybe we can go, Soul/Hollows -> Ribbons -> Transcendence, at least in terms of sensing
Yeah, i think the issue is finding a mix between seeing and/or sensing

 

[ItsMeat]

The issue is you're using the ability to see spirits (soul vision as it's listed) interchangeably with sensing energy.

That's how it works tho…

You've been factoring them together in these proposed layers, which makes it look like you're aiming for what's effectively layers of invisibility.

Those are a result of this too, but I was going to talk about them in a separate thread after this one concludes. To my knowledge, you can't really have Layers of Invisibility, because we don't really have Resistance to Invisibility as far as Ik (although there may exist characters who resist having invisibility enforced upon them or smth, but that's not the case here) and yes, Layers require bypassing Resistance. Anyway, using layers for convenience, it'd be:
○Baseline Invisibility - normal souls, shinigami, etc.
○1 Layer - Hollows
○2 Layers - Spiritual Ribbons
○3 Layers - Orihime with the bracelet

I wouldn't give Invisibility to Sonido and Bringer Light users because it's never shown to truly make them invisible, it's just making them a lot faster so the eye might be unable to see them, while also cloaking them from spiritual perception.

I'm fine with the resistance to being sensed,

So you agree with everything proposed basically?

although I'm unsure if Hollows should have their own layer

I think I can find more evidence, if needed, although it's pretty clear that:

●People like Yuzu and kid Ichigo can see souls

Moreover, as you can see, the soul Yuzu sees is mostly colored blue, similar to the way the blind Ichigo saw Ginjo's reiatsu as shown a few times in this thread. This further indicates she's mostly using Reikaku to perceive the ghost.
This is also reinforced when she can't even see the human soul bait of Grand Fisher because it obviously had Grand Fisher's Hollow reiatsu, despite being as invisible to the eye as a normal human soul, which further proves Hollows are more resistant to Reikaku than normal souls.

●However, they can't¹ see² Hollows³

In the second image, there's Grand Fisher, but kid Ichigo can only see the human soul part. In the third image, Yuzu can touch Grand Fisher, but she can't see it (else she would have obviously looked above and see the full monster). Grand Fisher comments how she doesn't have spiritual powers on par with Karin and affirms Karin is really gifted for being able to see him.

●Therefore, Hollows are clearly more resistant to "I can see souls" than normal human souls and also clearly more resistant to both eye-sight (as kid Ichigo who could see ghosts just fine failed to perceive Hollows) and Reikaku (as Karin who can sense souls' reiatsu can't sense Hollow reiatsu). As such, Hollows should have their own layer.

I'm just trying to ascertain how seeing spirits is being affected here.

I see. Hope I made it clear in this comment.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I'm fine with transcendence and Sonido giving a resistance to the energy being sensed, but not with them stacking as layers together. I disagree about Orihime's bracelet because we have no proof Soul Reapers can't see her or sense her or anything to that effect. I slightly disagree with a full layer for Hollows over normal spirits. Yuzu says that she thinks there's a new ghost, and I know there have been statements that she can sense them but not see them.

I'm also not fine with characters needing to have multiple layers of soul vision to be able to to see characters like Dangai Ichigo.

 

[ichimojii]

I'm fine with transcendence and Sonido giving a resistance to the energy being sensed, but not with them stacking as layers together. I disagree about Orihime's bracelet because we have no proof Soul Reapers can't see her or sense her or anything to that effect. I slightly disagree with a full layer for Hollows over normal spirits. Yuzu says that she thinks there's a new ghost, and I know there have been statements that she can sense them but not see them.

I'm also not fine with characters needing to have multiple layers of soul vision to be able to to see characters like Dangai Ichigo.

I think he's arguing people cant see or feel transcended reiatsu. Aizen could see ichigo however he couldn't see,sense or feel his reiastu to the point he thought he had no reiatsu at all

 

[ItsMeat]

I'm fine with transcendence and Sonido giving a resistance to the energy being sensed, but not with them stacking as layers together.

I am not stacking them together tho…

I disagree about Orihime's bracelet because we have no proof Soul Reapers can't see her or sense her or anything to that effect.

Is there any reason why that explicit statement wouldn't be considered enough? Arrancars and fusions between Shinigami and Hollows (Ichigo) have been shown sensing reiatsu of people top-tier Shinigami can't, such as second fusion Aizen.
Ichigo is also the only one who was able to sense Orihime's reiatsu when she had the bracelet.

I slightly disagree with a full layer for Hollows over normal spirits. Yuzu says that she thinks there's a new ghost, and I know there have been statements that she can sense them but not see them.

Could you specify where?

I'm also not fine with characters needing to have multiple layers of soul vision to be able to to see characters like Dangai Ichigo.

That's not proposed. Dangai Ichigo only gets ESP layered resistance, because that's all he has. He's not only a Hollow, he's not a spiritual ribbon, he doesn't have Orihime's bracelet.

To sum up everything said in this thread so far, this is the final proposal:​

●Normal souls: baseline invisibility and you need baseline ESP to sense them
○Gifted humans quallify for this.

●Hollows: "layered" invisibility and baseline Resistance to ESP. You need 1 Layer of ESP to sense them.
○Extremely gifted humans and spiritual beings quallify for this.

●Spirit Ribbons: "2 layers" of invisibility and 1 Layer of Resistance to ESP. You need 2 Layers of ESP to sense them.
○Skilled spiritual beings (which includes Lieutenants and above) can perceive them, qualifying for this. Basically, all the profiles we have, except Don Kanonji and Kon.

●Orihime with the bracelet: "3 layers" of invisibility and 2 Layers of Resistance to ESP. You need 3 Layers of ESP to sense her reiatsu.
○Arrancars and Ichigo are able to perceive her, qualifying for this.

●Second Fusion Aizen: Baseline invisibility (via being a soul) and 2 Layers of Resistance to ESP (not even Isshin and Urahara can sense his reiatsu despite them being able to perceive Spiritual Ribbons). You need baseline "I can see souls" to see him and 3 Layers of ESP to sense his reiatsu.
○Gifted humans qualify for seeing him, Arrancars and Ichigo qualify for sensing his reiatsu

●Fourth fusion Aizen: Baseline invisibility (via being a soul) and 3 Layers of Resistance to ESP (he completely transcended Hollow and Shinigami races, which includes the Arrancars and only someone in the same state as he is can sense his reiatsu. You need baseline "I can see souls" to see him and 4 Layers of ESP to sense his reiatsu
○Gifted humans qualify for seeing him, characters in the same state as him qualify for sensing his reiatsu

●Dangai Ichigo: baseline invisibility (via being a soul) and 4 Layers of Resistance to ESP (4th fusion Aizen is unable to perceive his reiatsu). You need baseline "I can see souls to see him and 5 Layers of ESP to sense his reiatsu
○Gifted humans qualify for seeing him, characters in the same state as him qualify for sensing his reiatsu

●Sonido and Bringer light fall in the same category as 4th fusion Aizen.

Explaining "I can see souls":​

"I can see souls" (aka "Soul Vision") is the sum of Visual Sight and Reiakaku. As long as at least one of them returns something, the object observed isn't invisible for the user.

Basically a, b, c >=0
a (soul vision) = b (eye-sight) + c (reikaku)
a = 0 <=> b = 0 & c = 0

Examples: Normal souls for normal humans, Hollows for gifted humans, Spirit Ribbons for fodder Shinigami, Orihime with the bracelet for top Shinigami.

or

a ≠ 0 <=> b ≠ 0 V c ≠ 0

Examples: Second fusion Aizen for anyone top Shinigami - gifted human, Fourth Fusion Aizen for anyone Arrancar - gifted human, Dangai Ichigo for anyone 4th Fusion Aizen - gifted human.

Hope I explained everything well enough.

Could you also make a quick summary of what you agree and disagree with? Smth like:
•hollows: agree with 1layer of resistance to Esp
•spirit ribbons: agree 2 layers of resistance to esp
•orihime: disagree with 3 layers of resistance to ESP
And so on for these too:
•2nd fusion Aizen:
•Bringer Light and Sonido:
•4th fusion Aizen:
•Dangai Ichigo:

(This is an example)

Could be really useful and clear

 

[Random-Helper323]

Is there any reason why that explicit statement wouldn't be considered enough? Arrancars and fusions between Shinigami and Hollows (Ichigo) have been shown sensing reiatsu of people top-tier Shinigami can't, such as second fusion Aizen.

It was only Ichigo who could sense him. We didn't see signs of Arrancars doing so.

Ichigo is also the only one who was able to sense Orihime's reiatsu when she had the bracelet.

In fairness, it was a trace of it on his arm and he woke up with it there. We didn't see if anyone else sensed it or even tried to.

●Normal souls: baseline invisibility and you need baseline ESP to sense them
○Gifted humans quallify for this.

That's fine.

●Hollows: "layered" invisibility and baseline Resistance to ESP. You need 1 Layer of ESP to sense them.
○Extremely gifted humans and spiritual beings quallify for this.

I can see the ESP resistance since Yuzu is sensing the energy of normal ghosts. I'm unsure on invisibility. If Yuzu's sensing them rather than strictly seeing them then that wouldn't be layered invisibility.

●Spirit Ribbons: "2 layers" of invisibility and 1 Layer of Resistance to ESP. You need 2 Layers of ESP to sense them.
○Skilled spiritual beings (which includes Lieutenants and above) can perceive them, qualifying for this. Basically, all the profiles we have, except Don Kanonji and Kon.

This did seem mediation based though. It's not like they see them all the time.

●Orihime with the bracelet: "3 layers" of invisibility and 2 Layers of Resistance to ESP. You need 3 Layers of ESP to sense her reiatsu.
○Arrancars and Ichigo are able to perceive her, qualifying for this.

Disagree, sorry.

●Second Fusion Aizen: Baseline invisibility (via being a soul) and 2 Layers of Resistance to ESP (not even Isshin and Urahara can sense his reiatsu despite them being able to perceive Spiritual Ribbons). You need baseline "I can see souls" to see him and 3 Layers of ESP to sense his reiatsu.
○Gifted humans qualify for seeing him, Arrancars and Ichigo qualify for sensing his reiatsu

●Fourth fusion Aizen: Baseline invisibility (via being a soul) and 3 Layers of Resistance to ESP (he completely transcended Hollow and Shinigami races, which includes the Arrancars and only someone in the same state as he is can sense his reiatsu. You need baseline "I can see souls" to see him and 4 Layers of ESP to sense his reiatsu
○Gifted humans qualify for seeing him, characters in the same state as him qualify for sensing his reiatsu

I don't see proof that these two forms of Aizen have different levels of resistance.

●Dangai Ichigo: baseline invisibility (via being a soul) and 4 Layers of Resistance to ESP (4th fusion Aizen is unable to perceive his reiatsu). You need baseline "I can see souls to see him and 5 Layers of ESP to sense his reiatsu
○Gifted humans qualify for seeing him, characters in the same state as him qualify for sensing his reiatsu

The resistance to ESP is fine here.

●Sonido and Bringer light fall in the same category as 4th fusion Aizen.

Sonido is more of a stealth mastery thing, but okay.

---

For my opinion so far:


Hollows: resistance to ESP is likely okay.

Ribbons: unsure

Orihime's bracelet: disagree

Hogyoku Aizen: extra layer of ESP resist (2 layers so far) is fine. I'm unconvinced he gained an extra layer between forms though; Ichigo sensing him might have been because he contained Zangetsu and is all the different races, so I don't see a reason to assume Arrancars can do the same.

Sonido: 2 layers ESP resist is fine. Not sure on Bringer Light.

Dangai Ichigo: 3rd layer ESP resist is fine.