(Staff Needed) Bleach Extrasensorial Perception Layers

[ItsMeat]

Bump

 

[Torsin]

I don't know how this factors in but I was curious about Zanpakuto spirits as well? For example when Zangetsu saved Ichigo from Kenpachi I doubt he was visible to Kenpachi and also Yachiru's zanpakuto spirits which were invisible to Gunael untill she chose to reveal them to him and Isane. Also Yamamoto's invisible flames unable to be seen by Lloyd when he uses Bankai- West. Would this be counted as requiring a minimum number of layers to see them?

 

[ItsMeat]

I don't know how this factors in but I was curious about Zanpakuto spirits as well? For example when Zangetsu saved Ichigo from Kenpachi I doubt he was visible to Kenpachi and also Yachiru's zanpakuto spirits which were invisible to Gunael untill she chose to reveal them to him and Isane. Also Yamamoto's invisible flames unable to be seen by Lloyd when he uses Bankai- West. Would this be counted as requiring a minimum number of layers to see them?

Zanpakto spirits are invisible for everyone except the user…
Also, no, flames are unrelated to anything, it's not about them having resistance, it's about flames at that temperature being impossible to see, due to how hot they are. Moreover, even if you wanted to argue that as resistance, it's magnitude based(because of the heat) so it doesn't qualify for layers.

 

[Torsin]

Zanpakto spirits are invisible for everyone except the user…
Also, no, flames are unrelated to anything, it's not about them having resistance, it's about flames at that temperature being impossible to see, due to how hot they are. Moreover, even if you wanted to argue that as resistance, it's magnitude based(because of the heat) so it doesn't qualify for layers.

One more question what about Pernida's nerves?

 

[ItsMeat]

One more question what about Pernida's nerves?

They are simply too small( literally cell size) to be perceived by most of the cast

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Bump

 

[ItsMeat]

Nvm i'm here

Baseline is good
1st and 2nd Layer is good
I'm shaky on the arrancar alone membrane sight, not a fan
The sonido one is good
The transcendent one is good too
They can't cross over into each other. One is stealth mastery, hiding your presence, while the other is actually being so far above them in capabilities that you can't sense, like god Ki in DBS. They're different types of stacked resistances.
Ichigo scaling over the transcendent layer is fine as well.
So the layers up to the 2nd are valid, the 3rd i don't necessarily like, sonido and transcendent work but they can't scale through each other, and ichigo scaling over the transcendent is good

So, Orihime stuff gets rejected and it goes smth like this:

Soul Physiology - low tier souls: baseline up to 2 layers of EP and Enhanced Perception

Hollow Physiology - low tier Hollows and Arrancars get 1 layer of EP Resistance.

Arrancars get 2 Layers of EP Resistance via Sonido, Fullbringers get the same via Bringer Light (Bringer Light is the othwr technique I was reffering to when talking about Sonido and other twchniques in the OP). I'd suggest this to be indexed as Unconventional Resistance since it's rather done through some technique with stealth mastery effects rather than it being a property of the characters themselves and it works against layered EP despite being the only resistance possessed via these mechanics.

Transcendentals (Aizen, Yhwach) get 3 layers of EP and 2 Layers of Resistance to it.

Deicide Ichigo gets 4 layers of EP and 3 Layers of Resistance to it.

Right?

 

[KingTempest]

mhm

 

[Random-Helper323]

Proof the transcendence gives more resistance than Sonido?

 

[ItsMeat]

Proof the transcendence gives more resistance than Sonido?

It's not more resistance, idk where you got that idea from, both were proposed to be 3 layers and without the Orihime part, they both are 2 layers…

 

[Random-Helper323]

I still have concerns about combining the sensing of power levels with the ability to see them. What we see in regards to seeing them is people who can somewhat see spirits seeing only outlines of Hollows. I don't think we can genuinely stack layers on the ability to see them. I'm fine with a resistance layer for sensing energy though.

 

[Hecky2222]

So two staff agrees with different things from convo here ic?

 

[ItsMeat]

I still have concerns about combining the sensing of power levels with the ability to see them. What we see in regards to seeing them is people who can somewhat see spirits seeing only outlines of Hollows. I don't think we can genuinely stack layers on the ability to see them. I'm fine with a resistance layer for sensing energy though.

Just tell me all your concerns and I will do my best to answer them, including those you've just mentioned

 

[Random-Helper323]

Just tell me all your concerns and I will do my best to answer them, including those you've just mentioned

From what I can tell you're combining the invisibility and resistance to being sensed to make more layers and treating them as the same, implying someone would need three layers of the ability to see ghosts to see a transcendent, even though we see that's not the case. The ability to see the spirit and the ability to sense their power level can't be stacked together to give both more layers. I'm fine with the energy sensing getting some layers, but not the invisibility.

 

[ItsMeat]

From what I can tell you're combining the invisibility and resistance to being sensed to make more layers and treating them as the same, implying someone would need three layers of the ability to see ghosts to see a transcendent, even though we see that's not the case. The ability to see the spirit and the ability to sense their power level can't be stacked together to give both more layers. I'm fine with the energy sensing getting some layers, but not the invisibility.

Ok, so:

●Ep + eyes => sight.
Therefore, something completely invisible has Resistance to EP and Greater Invisibility. However, they are 2 different senses and, as such, things like these are perfectly valid within the story:

●Something that only has Resistance to EP isn't necessarily invisible for the eye.

This is how transcendence works: their reiatsu can't be sensed, yet they are perceivable for the eye. This creates a feeling of "almost like he's not even there".

●And, similarly, something that merely the eye can't see isn't necessarily undetectable via EP.

Hope this answers your concerns

 

[Random-Helper323]

Ok, so:

●Ep + eyes => sight.
Therefore, something completely invisible has Resistance to EP and Greater Invisibility. However, they are 2 different senses and, as such, things like these are perfectly valid within the story:

●Something that only has Resistance to EP isn't necessarily invisible for the eye.

This is how transcendence works: their reiatsu can't be sensed, yet they are perceivable for the eye. This creates a feeling of "almost like he's not even there".

Are you trying to make it so someone needs three layers of ESP, three layers of "I can see ghosts" to see Monster Aizen?

●And, similarly, something that merely the eye can't see isn't necessarily undetectable via EP.

Hope this answers your concerns

Ichigo is blind there, so this doesn't seem relevant to this issue.

 

[ichimojii]

I don't know how this factors in but I was curious about Zanpakuto spirits as well? For example when Zangetsu saved Ichigo from Kenpachi I doubt he was visible to Kenpachi and also Yachiru's zanpakuto spirits which were invisible to Gunael untill she chose to reveal them to him and Isane. Also Yamamoto's invisible flames unable to be seen by Lloyd when he uses Bankai- West. Would this be counted as requiring a minimum number of layers to see them?

Zangetsu stopped time so kenpachi is not going to see him

 

[Random-Helper323]

Zangetsu stopped time so kenpachi is not going to see him

That seemed like time slowed because it was really inside Ichigo's head.

 

[ichimojii]

That seemed like time slowed because it was really inside Ichigo's head.

I don't think so because Ichigo says Zangetsu used shadow on him to move him to his internal world. Even in the databook it says Zangetsu took him to his inner world. Zanpakuto can manifest the at anytime. Renji did this for his training

 

[ItsMeat]

Note: ESP stands for Extrasensory Perception.

Are you trying to make it so someone needs three layers of ESP,

Yes.

three layers of "I can see ghosts"

No…? "I can see ghosts" is the sum of Reikaku & Enhanced Perception (to see invisible stuff). Layers of Resistance to "I can see ghosts" = Layers of Resistance to EP + Greater invisibility.

Ichigo is blind there, so this doesn't seem relevant to this issue.

It is quite relevant, because one summand is enough for "I can see ghosts" to work.

Transcendentals would have 3 Layers of Resistance to ESP and only baseline Invisbility, due to being souls. Nothing else.

As shown, they can see him even without ESP. At the same time, the fact he resists ESP causes them to feel "almost like he's not even here".

 

[Random-Helper323]

Note: ESP stands for Extrasensory Perception.

Yes.

No…? "I can see ghosts" is the sum of Reikaku & Enhanced Perception (to see invisible stuff). Layers of Resistance to "I can see ghosts" = Layers of Resistance to EP + Greater invisibility.

It is quite relevant, because one summand is enough for "I can see ghosts" to work.

Transcendentals would have 3 Layers of Resistance to ESP and only baseline Invisbility, due to being souls. Nothing else.

As shown, they can see him even without ESP. At the same time, the fact he resists ESP causes them to feel "almost like he's not even here".

The issue is you're using the ability to see spirits (soul vision as it's listed) interchangeably with sensing energy. You've been factoring them together in these proposed layers, which makes it look like you're aiming for what's effectively layers of invisibility. I'm fine with the resistance to being sensed, although I'm unsure if Hollows should have their own layer, I'm just trying to ascertain how seeing spirits is being affected here.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

I think that maybe we can go, Soul/Hollows -> Ribbons -> Transcendence, at least in terms of sensing
Yeah, i think the issue is finding a mix between seeing and/or sensing