Re:Zero Existence Erasure Removal

[MrTayman616]

Introduction​

This is a thread to remove Existence Erasure from Reinhard Van Astrea and Reid Astrea.

Current Justifications
Reinhard's Existence Erasure was added with this thread and his current justification is:

Existence Erasure (He completely erased all traces of Puck from the world, to the degree that there was no hint that a battle had even taken place. Comparable to Reid Astrea)

Light Novel version:

And the enormous beast that had been bathed in that slash had been annihilated from the world without a trace. There were not even side effects of destruction to be seen; that a battle had even taken place seemed like nothing but a dream.

Web Novel version:

While the colossal beast that was rent by that strike vanished without a trace. Indisputably present only moments ago, the enormous body was gone, and no indication of its destruction remained.

Puck's a spirit, his physical body is a mana body that he keeps intact. His Od is destroyed, his physical body disappears. Even a strong attack can make his physical body disappear, like how Roswaal did to him(Anime version). So EE isn't required or anything for him to vanish without a trace when his Od itself gets destroyed.

There was "no trace" of the fight left, but that's specifically because the world itself heals there. That's Restoration/Reconstruction. He didn't "erase" everything there or something like that either as the ground still existed, just shattered. Same for the sky, the air around them. The description in the novel shows it, same for the manga version which shows the scene here seemingly accurate to novel.

The next instant, Reinhard raised the Dragon Blade above his head, and there was a single flash of light—the sky split, cracks running through the very air; the ground crumbled; mana swirled in a vortex; and along the arc of his slash, the world…slid.
“—”
The moment after that cascading slash settled down, the white, cold air covering the world…recovered.
The slide in the world was repaired, the parts that had become a swirling vortex of mana reverted to their proper forms, flowers budded forth from the shattered ground, and peace spread through the cracked air. From the sky, dazzling sunrays poured down.
And the enormous beast that had been bathed in that slash had been annihilated from the world without a trace. There were not even side effects of destruction to be seen; that a battle had even taken place seemed like nothing but a dream.

Literally says that the white cold air covering the world still remained after the world slid by his slash, but then recovered. Ground just shattered but it still remained, which later healed. Just Restoration feat.

It talks about Puck being annihilated, but that isn't really an EE feat to begin with as destroying his Od itself is enough for that, or a powerful attack by itself. That alone isn't a justification for EE.

Same for Reid Astrea. Other than being compared to Reinhard, his only justification is

(Those who are slashed down by the true might of the Sword Saint vanish into nothing. Comparable to Reinhard)

Which is literally from just this line:

Reid: “Don’t be complainin’ even if ya vanish to nothin’.”

This is definitely not enough to be a justification of EE.

---

Additional Stuff:Range&AOE​

Something i'm also wondering is that why do we use this slash as an omnidirectional AOE Existence Erasure? I assume it's because of the anime version?

But neither the manga or novel version shows such thing to begin with as far as i'm aware. And even the anime version of the slash just got big enough to attack Puck, then hasn't shown any growth at all.

If anything, the novel says:

LN:
The next instant, Reinhard raised the Dragon Blade above his head, and there was a single flash of light—the sky split, cracks running through the very air; the ground crumbled; mana swirled in a vortex; and along the arc of his slash, the world…slid.

WN:
With the fall of the last syllable, Reinhard lifted his sword over his head, and in a single flash of his swordsmanship―― from the glint of his blade’s edge, an intense heat shot out.
It cleaves through the sky, drills through the air, shatters the ground, roils the ambient mana, rending everything which was in the blade’s path in two―― And, as the light settled, the world parted before Subaru’s disembodied eyes.
Reinhard: “――――”
At the close of the torrential sword slash, the world that was covered in the white, encompassing cold was born anew.

The sword affects the surrounding, sure. But doesn't appear to be in a omnidirectional AOE style...

Even if the restoration reaches that far, that doesn't mean his attack range does as we don't even see such a thing in any of the feats there.

---

Conclusion:

Existence Erasure should be removed from Reinhard and Reid. The range should get clarified in their profile.

Reinhard killed Puck with Dragon Sword Reid, which should give him NPI for Elemental, Mind, & Soul (Same reasoning as Puck who killed Melakuera).

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Agree with everything

 

[Ball_of_light]

Hmm.

 

[Mommyleona]

AOE EE nuke no more

 

[Robo432343]

reinhard my glorious king

 

[Fezzih_007]

Damn, beat me to It. I kinda planning to adresx this eventually.

Agreed

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Watch

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

You have once again not posted in the discussion thread

I have some contentions myself but for now i am neutral

 

[UrongSygn1]

They are gutting my glorious king

 

[Phoenks]

#MakeReinhardGreatAgain

 

[UrongSygn1]

#MakeReinhardGreatAgain

We gotta put Reinhard 8373837383737373 layers into Reinhardversal

 

[God_of_perversion]

But he still made Puck's OD dissapear from the world didn't he? That would still grant soul erasure wouldn't it

 

[Delusionaltx2]

POV: reinhard after losing EE and having to fight the tier 1 characters again

 

[UrongSygn1]

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

But he still made Puck's OD dissapear from the world didn't he? That would still grant soul erasure wouldn't it

The anime does depict erasure, yes. Tayman's argument seems to be that the anime's interpretation differs from the manga, which shows him slicing Puck in half along with the world, a depiction which is closer to the light novel.

That said, I'm fairly certain the manga was not directly supervised by Tappei Nagatsuki to the same extent as the anime. The anime was produced with his active involvement, including participation in script meetings and adaptation decisions, giving it greater authority as an adaptation. Because of that, I'd argue the anime takes precedence over the manga. I'd even place its depiction above the novel in this case, as the way the scene is presented in the anime is more coherent and makes better sense within the context of what's being shown.

Original author Tappei Nagatsuki was very active in the production of the anime, attending script meetings and recording sessions. When the staff would encounter a problem with a scene, he would occasionally write lines for them to use as reference while writing the script

src- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re:Zero_(TV_series)?

I will wait for others to drop what they think before voting however.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

We also have a direct statement of Reinhard's erasure in arc 9

Therefore――,

Reinhard: [――That will be as far as you go.]

Entrusting his master, who had fulfilled her duty, to his friend, and spurred onward, Reinhard advanced onto the battlefield.

In that instant, he pinpointed all the presences that dotted the region, headed towards the enemy among them who needed to be dealt with, and in a solitary flash, reduced Roy Alphard of Gluttony, engulfed in blue flare, to nihil, erasing him from the world of the living.


Arc 9, Chapter 58, The Sound of Chains

 

[Random-Helper323]

The justifications haven't really been countered in the OP. The statement also includes Julius saying he'd lack a mouth if erased, implying a destruction of his physical existence.

And the part about Puck, that I can see having its issues, if a normal fire attack causes him to vanish but doesn't kill him. Destroying his spirit also killing him is interesting though, what are the rules concerning that? Is it a situation where losing his magic causes him to fade from existence, or is it a matter of him being a soul that forms bodies for himself to be able to fight, and he can't die unless the soul is destroyed?

 

[Fezzih_007]

Oh and also forgot to mention but we also have a direct statement of Reinhard's erasure

That's not really EE.

reduced Roy Alphard of Gluttony, engulfed in blue flare, to nihil, erasing him from the world of the living.

That's just saying he killed Roy, the Guy who is already dying and burning, with a tap. It don't need to be EE.

 

[Hercules1125]

That's not really EE.

That's just saying he killed Roy, the Guy who is already dying and burning, with a tap. It don't need to be EE.

Killing somebody doesn’t cause them to vanish from the world, furthermore, it’s stated he wasn’t dying, he would have continued burning forever unless Reinhard killed him, and we see no traces of his body left after this, the same is true for most Sword Saint slashes

青い炎にくるまれる『暴食』のロイ・アルファルドを一閃、この世から消滅させる。

“With a single slash, he erased Roy Alphard of Gluttony, who was wrapped in blue flames, from this world.”

I’m fine with granting that there is horrible justification for Reinhard having EE, but the point Tayman made is weak too, because simply destroying the mana body of a spirit has never once been used in series to imply all traces of the entity have been destroyed, because presumably the existence of the spirit’s Od would count among that, given that it’s soul and body are erased in one go and are caused to vanish without a trace I don’t see why granting him EE is ridiculous

Furthermore there are statements of Volcanica’s Dragon’s Breath being capable of doing the exact same thing to people (being erase them from existence) and the primary basis in which the Dragon’s Breath is powerful is raw mana output, which Reinhard and Reid should exceed him in

本気の『龍』の息吹の射程は数キロにも及び、何の予兆もなく訪れる滅びの光に呑み込まれれば、誰もが痛みを感じる暇さえなく、消滅する。

“The range of a serious Dragon’s Breath reaches several kilometers, and if swallowed by that light of destruction that arrives without warning, anyone would vanish/be extinguished before they even had time to feel pain.”

その途上にあったあらゆるものを無に帰した。

“Everything in its path was reduced to nothing.”

Furthermore I’m fine with the EE not being omnidirectional, I’m just wondering why we don’t treat this as an AP feat given that it hypothetically might not be EE, given Subaru says that what caused the destruction was his sword pressure.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

That's not really EE.

That's just saying he killed Roy, the Guy who is already dying and burning, with a tap. It don't need to be EE.

The term used in this context in the original is

この世から消滅させる

literally "to cause him to disappear from this world."

• この世 = "this world"
• から = "from"
• 消滅する = "to disappear," "to vanish," "to be annihilated," "to cease to exist"
• 消滅させる = the causative form: "to make (someone/something) disappear," "to annihilate," "to erase"

 

[UrongSygn1]

The term used in this context in the original is

literally "to cause him to disappear from this world."

The wording makes it pretty clear its EE, no? Or am i missing something? I might wanna go check past chapters smh

 

[Hercules1125]

The wording makes it pretty clear its EE, no? Or am i missing something? I might wanna go check past chapters smh

It does, I’m just curious why Tayman only makes removal CRT’s

 

[MasterOwOgay]

Based on the stuff posted so far, i am leaning towards a disagree with the thread but i will wait for Saitama to bring up his points

 

[MrTayman616]

You have once again not posted in the discussion thread

I have some contentions myself but for now i am neutral

Sorry. But i didn't post it anywhere yet, as i fell a sleep right away :d

The anime does depict erasure, yes. Tayman's argument seems to be that the anime's interpretation differs from the manga, which shows him slicing Puck in half along with the world, a depiction which is closer to the light novel.

That said, I'm fairly certain the manga was not directly supervised by Tappei Nagatsuki to the same extent as the anime. The anime was produced with his active involvement, including participation in script meetings and adaptation decisions, giving it greater authority as an adaptation. Because of that, I'd argue the anime takes precedence over the manga. I'd even place its depiction above the novel in this case, as the way the scene is presented in the anime is more coherent and makes better sense within the context of what's being shown.

Anime doesn't even show him slashing, nor shows the aftermath, nor shows it accurate to the novel there. Tappei did have a hand in script and adaptation decisions, but it's literally a must because the anime couldn't adapt to everything and had to be decided.

The justifications haven't really been countered in the OP. The statement also includes Julius saying he'd lack a mouth if erased, implying a destruction of his physical existence.

And the part about Puck, that I can see having its issues, if a normal fire attack causes him to vanish but doesn't kill him. Destroying his spirit also killing him is interesting though, what are the rules concerning that? Is it a situation where losing his magic causes him to fade from existence, or is it a matter of him being a soul that forms bodies for himself to be able to fight, and he can't die unless the soul is destroyed?

Puck is a spirit, his entire physical body is a mana body he keeps intact, he usually disappears and comes back later like nothing for example.

Puck seemed satisfied by this and smiled, he then started disappearing with no warning.

“…Suddenly disappearing like that is a real bad habit of his. It was quite the shock back then.”

She was used to the sight now, but it was terribly surprising when she first saw it. Spirits could freely control the formation and disintegration of their bodies from atmospheric mana.

Not knowing this, Emilia was driven to tears when Puck suddenly disappeared with no explanation. She still remembered how angry she was when Puck just showed up like nothing happened the very next day. —Bond of Ice, Chapter 2, "I Am Here"

Spirits will live as long as they have their Od(Soul), and you need to destroy or damage it heavily to destroy them.

Puck manifest through the mana that exists in atmosphere, his Od(Soul) getting destroyed is more than enough for him to disappear with no trace. (Also the slash that cuts him is a spatial cut as well, so :d)

For Julius's scene, here is the entire scene. Both are just playing along. That is definitely not an justification there.

 

[Hercules1125]

Sorry. But i didn't post it anywhere yet, as i fell a sleep right away :d

Anime doesn't even show him slashing, nor shows the aftermath, nor shows it accurate to the novel there. Tappei did have a hand in script and adaptation decisions, but it's literally a must because the anime couldn't adapt to everything and had to be decided.


Puck is a spirit, his entire physical body is a mana body he keeps intact, he usually disappears and comes back later like nothing for example.

Spirits will live as long as they have their Od(Soul), and you need to destroy or damage it heavily to destroy them.

Puck manifest through the mana that exists in atmosphere, his Od(Soul) getting destroyed is more than enough for him to disappear with no trace. (Also the slash that cuts him is a spatial cut as well, so :d)

For Julius's scene, here is the entire scene. Both are just playing along. That is definitely not a justification there.

I’m confused on why you’re forming a distinction between soul + body destruction without even the sight of the mana fading away and existence erasure here

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Something i'm also wondering is that why do we use this slash as an omnidirectional AOE Existence Erasure? I assume it's because of the anime version?

Not sure if it's just me but it says "video not available" 0_0

 

[Random-Helper323]

If killing Puck's soul is key, then it could be soul hax rather than existence erasure. It might get a bit theological to ask, but where is Puck's soul in relation to his body? Is the body built around his soul or puppeteered from a distance?

Soul Manipulation

Soul Manipulation is the ability to interact with one's soul or the souls of others. This ability ranges from being able to project the power of one's soul outward, grasping and ripping the souls of others out of their bodies, outright consuming souls to gain power, among other applications...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Hercules1125]

If killing Puck's soul is key, then it could be soul hax rather than existence erasure. It might get a bit theological to ask, but where is Puck's soul in relation to his body? Is the body built around his soul or puppeteered from a distance?

Soul Manipulation

Soul Manipulation is the ability to interact with one's soul or the souls of others. This ability ranges from being able to project the power of one's soul outward, grasping and ripping the souls of others out of their bodies, outright consuming souls to gain power, among other applications...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Existence erasure has always been vague because I’m also unclear what it means to exist in the first place, it’s a vague term that shifts depending your views on metaphysics

 

[Random-Helper323]

Existence erasure has always been vague because I’m also unclear what it means to exist in the first place, it’s a vague term that shifts depending your views on metaphysics

If a body will fade if its source is gone, and that source is destroyed, and the body fades, that isn't existence erasure.

 

[Hercules1125]

If a body will fade if its source is gone, and that source is destroyed, and the body fades, that isn't existence erasure.

I’m not talking about that specifically, I’m talking about existence erasure as a category

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

If a body will fade if its source is gone, and that source is destroyed, and the body fades, that isn't existence erasure.

the body and the od dissappears at the same time when Reinhard swings his sword

Mana body's are bodies made up of...mana. Essentially Mana is like energy which if concentrated enough can result in mass being produced

 

[MrTayman616]

If killing Puck's soul is key, then it could be soul hax rather than existence erasure. It might get a bit theological to ask, but where is Puck's soul in relation to his body? Is the body built around his soul or puppeteered from a distance?

His body is just mana he gathers from atmosphere, surrounding his Od. His Od is there.

If killing Puck's soul is key, then it could be soul hax rather than existence erasure.

Destroying his Od(Soul) is a requirement to kill a spirit. Od is soul&mind (And concept type 3 if the other thread gets accepted). He slashes him with the sword.

So, It should be this:

Reinhard killed Puck with Dragon Sword Reid, which should give him NPI for Elemental, Mind, & Soul (Same reasoning as Puck who killed Melakuera).

Melakuera is another great spirit.

 

[UrongSygn1]

I do think its EE based on Phrasing, the phrasing frames it as that tbh

 

[Fezzih_007]

Killing somebody doesn’t cause them to vanish from the world

Not really? Like, in fiction is pretty common for people to punch someone so hard they whole turn turn into bloody mist.

And that's like, ignoring Roy was currently burning alive, so his body being erased could be that.

it’s stated he wasn’t dying, he would have continued burning forever

Is stated the opposite?

And, in the juncture he would be scorched by the blue flare together with his soul

Until Reinhard saw all that, and decided to kill so he don't suffer anymore.

Thus, Reinhard assisted his suicide as to not allow him to suffer for long.

the same is true for most Sword Saint slashes

And that's the third problem, Reinhard didn't do that with his Sword. He did this with his hand.

So unless you want argue he can EE with his hand too, he not holding a Sword is kinda of a issue.

The term used in this context in the original

It could be same term, and just be saying "he erased Roy's life", as in, he killed him.

Extrapolating that to EE is kinda weird, since Reinhard would just overkill him for no reason.

 

[Hercules1125]

Not really? Like, in fiction is pretty common for people to punch someone so hard they whole turn turn into bloody mist.

Your own sentence contradicts itself, they didn’t vanish from the world, they were turned into blood mist.

And that's like, ignoring Roy was currently burning alive, so his body being erased could be that.

Is stated the opposite?

Yes, it’s burning his soul not his physical body for one, and two it’s stated not to kill him and leave him in a state of perpetual agony.

Until Reinhard saw all that, and decided to kill so he don't suffer anymore.


And that's the third problem, Reinhard didn't do that with his Sword. He did this with his hand.

I don’t see the issue with arguing that Reinhard when he gets serious has EE should he choose to use it.

So unless you want argue he can EE with his hand too, he not holding a Sword is kinda of a issue.

It could be same term, and just be saying "he erased Roy's life", as in, he killed him.

Except that’s not what the statement says, so idk why this argument Is being made.

Here is the statement:

Entrusting his master, who had fulfilled her duty, to his friend, and spurred onward, Reinhard advanced onto the battlefield.

In that instant, he pinpointed all the presences that dotted the region, headed towards the enemy among them who needed to be dealt with, and in a solitary flash, reduced Roy Alphard of Gluttony, engulfed in blue flare, to nihil, erasing him from the world of the living.

Roy: [――Thank you for the treat-.]

That which was scorching the smiling Roy Alphard, was a blue flare set ablaze upon the firewood of his soul, never to dissipate. Thus, Reinhard assisted his suicide as to not allow him to suffer for long.

He would continue burning, the burning would never dissipate (which wouldn’t make sense if it was burning him to death since his soul would then return to Od Laguna) and Reinhard turns him and the flames to Nihil - Nothing.

It’s quite explicit.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Yes, it’s burning his soul not his physical body for one

The Curse Mark also affects the users body.
That's like, why Reinhard was seeing Roy being burn to death.

two it’s stated not to kill him and leave him in a state of perpetual agony.

Is literally stated he would die for it.

In other words, it was proof that Roy had broken the Oath of his curse mark, and had used his Authority on the Witch of Tristitia. And, he had done so fully aware that he would pay that penalty with his life.

Even If you want to extrapolate the "Fire burn forever" Roy would still die eventually for all the pain.

I don’t see the issue with arguing that Reinhard when he gets serious has EE should he choose to use it.

Ok, so you are arguing that.

 

[Hercules1125]

The Curse Mark also affects the users body.
That's like, why Reinhard was seeing Roy being burn to death.

Roy was burning, there’s no evidence suggesting that he would burn to death.

Is literally stated he would die for it.

Even If you want to extrapolate the "Fire burn forever" Roy would still die eventually for all the pain.

Ok? That wasn’t the original claim, plus that still doesn’t disprove Reinhard reducing him to nothing

Ok, so you are arguing that.

 

[Zabazab]

Huh, I didn't realize Reid's justification only used that one scan, I thought it was this:

Existence Erasure (His simple sword slash becomes a light that splits the world, erasing everything in the light's path. Those who are slashed down by the true might of the Sword Saint vanish into nothing. Comparable to Reinhard van Astrea)

Which is then directly compared to Reinhard:

A sword stroke that could split the world. The ultimate technique of a Sword Saint to rival Reinhard’s.

In the middle of a life-or-death struggle, Julius had an idle thought.

If Reid and Reinhard fought, who would come out on top?

Legend versus legend, Sword Saint against Sword Saint. In a battle that could never happen, who would claim victory? —Volume 25, Chapter 6, "Good Loser", Section 4

Is the argument that Reinhard's sword slash didn't target Puck's body and only attacked his soul? That would make no sense, the Dragon Sword isn't selective like the Yang Sword, it will destroy what it hits, not just ignore it and hit everything except his opponent's body.

And as for range, it is the case that it was along the arc of his slash that the world slid, it's still the entire frozen world that was destroyed and restored, i.e all directions. In fact, another sword slash that's said to be the same as one of Reinhard's explicitly affected all directions instead of just in front of them, he can be choosy with his direction here.


Also no he did not EE Roy Alphard, he just killed him.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Ok? That wasn’t the original claim, plus that still doesn’t disprove Reinhard reducing him to nothing

Reinhard didn't do that, he just killed Roy normally.

The "erased" part It just saying Reinhard erased him from the world of living, not literally his existance.

 

[Hercules1125]

Reinhard didn't do that, he just killed Roy normally.

The "erased" part It just saying Reinhard erased him from the world of living, not literally his existance.

That’s just begging the question but ok. I’m not sure if you intended to say something new or just repeat yourself.

Furthermore:

「――そこまでだ」


為すべきを果たした主を友人に任せ、背を押されたラインハルトが戦場を往く。
瞬間、一帯に点在する気配の位置を把握、それらの中、対処すべき敵の下に向かい、青い炎にくるまれる『暴食』のロイ・アルファルドを一閃、この世から消滅させる。


「――ゴチソウサマでしたッ」


そう嗤うロイ・アルファルドを焼いていたのは、彼の魂を火種に燃え上がる、決して消えぬ青い炎。故にラインハルトは、長く苦しませないために彼を介錯した。

Literally means:

“—That’s far enough.”


Leaving his master, who had done what she needed to do, in his friend’s care, Reinhard, pushed onward by her words, went onto the battlefield.
In an instant, he grasped the positions of the presences scattered throughout the area. Among them, he headed for the enemy who needed to be dealt with, and with a single flash, erased Roy Alphard of Gluttony, wrapped in blue flame, from this world.


“—Thank you for the meal.”


What was burning the laughing Roy Alphard was an inextinguishable blue flame, blazing up with his soul as its kindling. Thus, Reinhard finished him off so that he would not suffer for long.

Where この世 literally just means this world or this life.