Honkai: Star Rail Discussion Thread

[SuperNova55555]

i think not even you yourself know what you're talking about at this point

No, you’re just confused on your critique. I’d implore you to accurately quantify what you actually mean by that statement if you genuinely think it holds any ground.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

No, you’re just confused on your critique. I’d implore you to accurately quantify what you actually mean by that statement if you genuinely think it holds any ground.

i love it when you try to sound academic

If the functions of the Path are derivative of the energy, then to assume that the Path is simultaneously a universal requires you to commit to a second function, so that the Path simultaneously does the same job as Energy but also as Concept which is extremely unparsimonious.

are you not saying that path's effects are produced by path energy?

 

[SuperNova55555]

i love it when you try to sound academic

Aigh bruv, Ill talm like ts, ye?

are you not saying that path's effects are produced by path energy?

Ye, a Path’s effects are produced by the Path Energy… which is just the Path itself.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Aigh bruv, Ill talm like ts, ye?

too much punctuation bludd

Ye, a Path’s effects are produced by the Path Energy… which is just the Path itself.

okay? but path energy is just a manifestation of a path. especially when theyre explicitly stated to be multifaceted. they are definitely not raw energy. they have many ways to manifest. energy is drawn from paths. its not the paths themselves. the raw energy is the undistilled IE that is taken by aeons and shaped into paths. in turn, path "energy" is just the IE but molded through a path's principles.

 

[SuperNova55555]

okay? but path energy is just a manifestation of a path. especially when theyre explicitly stated to be multifaceted. they are definitely not raw energy. they have many ways to manifest. energy is drawn from paths. its not the paths themselves. the raw energy is the undistilled IE that is taken by aeons and shaped into paths. in turn, path "energy" is just the IE but molded through a path's principles.

You saw my previous message. You saw the scan of Welt saying Paths are the energy itself. The concept is just a property of the energy. Which is, ya know, how Aeons transform the energy in the first place when they ascend.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

You saw my previous message. You saw the scan of Welt saying Paths are the energy itself. The concept is just a property of the energy. Which is, ya know, how Aeons transform the energy in the first place when they ascend.

that's just one way they manifest. himeko also calls them a philosophical concept which is why it requires alignment with it in some manner to draw from it. so surely, they are more than just those two. but originally, yes, it is energy. imaginary energy that is then taken by aeons to create more specific things. including laws and concepts that govern the universe.

also based on what RM said, a concept within the voracity changed and its manifestations in turn changed as well. that treats the conceptual alteration as the cause and not as a property emergent from altered energy. if you want to argue concepts are only energetic properties (or those first and anything else second) you'd need evidence that the path is reducible to its energy rather than the energy being an expression of the path.

 

[SuperNova55555]

you'd need evidence that the path is reducible to its energy

Yea I don’t need to do this because the series tells you straight-up. The entire comment is just conjecture that seemingly ignores the very obvious option harmonizing the issue which is that “philosophical concept” here is just a quantifier of the path energy itself. Which should be exceedingly obvious but I guess not.

The untamed imaginary energy surges endlessly through space-time vasculature, and forms at its tips "star clusters" that humans can understand — in other words, countless worlds.

The game in fact tells you how the effects of Imaginary Energy works, in that the energy itself forms the objects. The concept of a path is just the determiner of what that energy manifests.

Himeko: Therefore, only Aeons, who draw their energy from the imaginary, and Emanators, who are blessed by Aeons, can travel through the spaces filled with imaginary energy. That's why planets where civilizations exist are so similar.

Because again, going by this^ and Welt’s statement, you’d also have to explain how the Authority of an Aeon is seemingly detached from imaginary energy, because now it once again assumes their power is seemingly twofold, when it doesn’t necessitate it being as such.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Recently? In part 2 when Senadina meets it.

She says beyond time and space.

Earlier? When it’s stated that there’s a number of dimensions between us and the Cocoon.

This was a theory iirc.

 

[SuperNova55555]

She says beyond time and space.

Yea but then it’s clarified that it’s in reference of Cocoon simply being of a higher dimension. I mean, this was part of the reason used for 12D ye? That someone with access to IT (11D) could not retrieve cognition from Cocoon’s dimension so it was 12D.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Yea but then it’s clarified that it’s in reference of Cocoon simply being of a higher dimension. I mean, this was part of the reason used for 12D ye? That someone with access to IT (11D) could not retrieve cognition from Cocoon’s dimension so it was 12D.

I don't think she did. I think the closest is in the CN: 'surpasses one's original dimension' but that's changed in the English to 'those not acknowledged by the Cocoon cannot take anything from here.'
Also surpasses one's original dimension could be both dimensional and dimensionless.

The reason used for 12D was the schrodinger scan with 'surpass all dimensions' I believe

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Yea I don’t need to do this because the series tells you straight-up. The entire comment is just conjecture that seemingly ignores the very obvious option harmonizing the issue which is that “philosophical concept” here is just a quantifier of the path energy itself. Which should be exceedingly obvious but I guess not.


The game in fact tells you how the effects of Imaginary Energy works, in that the energy itself forms the objects. The concept of a path is just the determiner of what that energy manifests.


Because again, going by this^ and Welt’s statement, you’d also have to explain how the Authority of an Aeon is seemingly detached from imaginary energy, because now it once again assumes their power is seemingly twofold, when it doesn’t necessitate it being as such.

That’s not something the game states but your interpretation of how paths and IE relate. Himeko explicitly separates them.

So you still haven’t shown where the text equates a path to IE or says concepts are just properties of that energy. You’re assuming reduction by collapsing everything into a single when layer the dialogue seperates it. You are just stuck forcing your interpretations again...

And at least try to done down the needless passive aggressiveness and condescension.

 

[SuperNova55555]

I don't think she did. I think the closest is in the CN: 'surpasses one's original dimension' but that's changed in the English to 'those not acknowledged by the Cocoon cannot take anything from here.'
Also surpasses one's original dimension could be both dimensional and dimensionless.

The reason used for 12D was the schrodinger scan with 'surpass all dimensions' I believe

Dw eventually Ill catch up to Part 2 and finally comprehend all the larped statements

That’s not something the game states but your interpretation of how paths and IE relate. Himeko explicitly separates them.

So you still haven’t shown where the text equates a path to IE or says concepts are just properties of that energy. You’re assuming reduction by collapsing everything into a single when layer the dialogue seperates it. You are just stuck forcing your interpretations again...

And at least try to done down the needless passive aggressiveness and condescension.

Welt: These intelligent beings are called Aeons and the energy THEY possess is called Paths. Aeons are free to use THEIR Paths' energy however THEY please, but are also bound by it.

 

[Mbpoops]

Recently? In part 2 when Senadina meets it.

“Beyond space and time” = higher dimensiomal

Earlier? When it’s stated that there’s a number of dimensions between us and the Cocoon.

When tesla said maybe its the number of dimensions? As in shes unsure of why they cant locate it with their technology? Because its beyond space and time?

Honestly, there’s quite a bit.

Show?

 

[SuperNova55555]

“Beyond space and time” = higher dimensiomal

Nono. That’s an analogy to it being above conventional dimensions. The point is that since Cocoon has more dimensions than usual, you cannot retrieve cognition from it.

When tesla said maybe its the number of dimensions? As in shes unsure of why they cant locate it with their techknowlogy? Because its beyond space and time?

Haven’t gotten to this part yet but it would be highly odd for it to somehow be confused for higher-dimensionality rather than quantitative non-extentionality.

Show?

This one in the justification for HDE for example.

Aside from that there’s also the fact Honkai is explicitly a higher-dimensional energy. So it’d have to imply that the Cocoon completely lacks HE. Which is pretty explicitly contradicted. In here you can also put in the issue of Imaginary Space itself.

There’s also the issue with how Imaginary Singularities work. They’re not non-dimensional in a quantitatively non-extensional way but rather non-dimensional in a 0-dimensional way. In that, they are dots. And we know this for a fact because PE Singularities are 0D points but CE Singularities are 1D strings looped to mimic 0 dimensions. So to argue that they speak of dimensionality differently requires an immense burden to satisfy the category error.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Dw eventually Ill catch up to Part 2 and finally comprehend all the larped statements

thats not really the full quote...

About the Paths...
Welt: We still need to study the nature of the Paths. For now, we can only describe it as a "philosophical concept."
Welt: It is a part of the Imaginary element, the metaphysical aggregation of the spirit. When specific conditions are met, an intelligent being will completely take over this part of the Imaginary.
Welt: These intelligent beings are called Aeons and the energy THEY possess is called Paths. Aeons are free to use THEIR Paths' energy however THEY please, but are also bound by it.

This quote distinguishes layers. IE is the substrate and paths are described as structured parts of it that aeons take over. That doesn’t reduce them to energy properties. It just adds a governing layer. Besides, IE is not "just" energy either.

 

[SuperNova55555]

thats not really the full quote...

This quote distinguishes layers. IE is the substrate and paths are described as structured parts of it that aeons take over. That doesn’t reduce them to energy properties. It just adds a governing layer. Besides, IE is not "just" energy either.

Not sure what this addresses. It’s perfectly tenable for the concept to be a quantifier for the differentiation of the energy’s function. Really, I’m not sure what this comment addresses nor in which way it is distinguished from my own take because the concept would be the governing factor of the energy. And like, you seem to be agreeing with that so I’m confused.

You could argue it’s CM2 for being a differentiator of a “collection” of energy in some weird sense, since conceptually altering the function of a set prolly satisfies the current definition(?), but I definitely deny that IE isn’t the intermediary in its effects.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Nono. That’s an analogy to it being above conventional dimensions. The point is that since Cocoon has more dimensions than usual, you cannot retrieve cognition from it.

Nono. Beyond time and space is repeated several times. It is literally called a 'Realm beyond time and space' - It's not an analogy.

Aside from that there’s also the fact Honkai is explicitly a higher-dimensional energy. So it’d have to imply that the Cocoon completely lacks HE. Which is pretty explicitly contradicted. In here you can also put in the issue of Imaginary Space itself.

It's weird, but that implication is obviously wrong.
We know:

• Stuff about HE. (Higher-Dimensional)
• Cocoon is beyond time and space, but has HE.

There can be another explanation, like something else about HE, rather than 'Cocoon lacks HE' (retconning something we know explicitly).

There’s also the issue with how Imaginary Singularities work. They’re not non-dimensional in a quantitatively non-extensional way but rather non-dimensional in a 0-dimensional way. In that, they are dots. And we know this for a fact because PE Singularities are 0D points but CE Singularities are 1D strings looped to mimic 0 dimensions. So to argue that they speak of dimensionality differently requires an immense burden to satisfy the category error.

Don't they speak of strange loops, a structure which spirals up continuously until it returns to the point where it began? How would a 1D object loop like that other than concerning dimensionality, looping upwards through dimensionality while all being at the same point throughout all dimensions? It'd explain Herrscher cores rather succinctly, considering they exist upon all dimensions.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Not sure what this addresses. It’s perfectly tenable for the concept to be a quantifier for the differentiation of the energy’s function. Really, I’m not sure what this comment addresses nor in which way it is distinguished from my own take because the concept would be the governing factor of the energy. And like, you seem to be agreeing with that so I’m confused.

You could argue it’s CM2 for being a differentiator of a “collection” of energy in some weird sense, since conceptually altering the function of a set prolly satisfies the current definition(?), but I definitely deny that IE isn’t the intermediary in its effects.

• Imaginary Energy = substrate
• Path = governing / conceptual structure
• Path determines how IE manifests
• Path can alter what exists under it at a conceptual level

^^^^^what i am arguing^^^^
also, i think you are undecided yourself cuz... you have 2 contradicting statements. “the concept would be the governing factor of the energy” but also: “the concept is a quantifier for the differentiation of the energy’s function”

Those two are incompatible. if it governs energy, it's ontologically above. if it quantifies it, it's below it.

besides, what RM said about voracity is a CM1 feat hands down. that's undisputed. what's left is for us to find whether paths have CM2 anti-feats bc that's still not clear.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Whether it's CM1 or CM2 depends on what you think is the form of the concept.

If you think the Aeon represents the form of the concept and is the purest thing there is of the path, then it's CM1.
If you think it's not the Aeon that's the purest form of the concept and it's something else, it's CM2.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Whether it's CM1 or CM2 depends on what you think is the form of the concept.

If you think the Aeon represents the form of the concept and is the purest thing there is of the path, then it's CM1.
If you think it's not the Aeon that's the purest form of the concept and it's something else, it's CM2.

well idk if this should be left to each one's interpretation. its a pretty big distinction. by 4.X's ending, a thread to resolve this should be made.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

well idk if this should be left to each one's interpretation. its a pretty big distinction. by 4.X's ending, a thread to resolve this should be made.

We'd be arguing off of scraps with barely any interpretation to go off of, and this might not be cleared up for years.

Just settle for CM2 and it'll be upgraded in the future.

 

[Mbpoops]

the strongest honkai character is the random ass imaginary barrier around the hi3 solar system

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

We'd be arguing off of scraps with barely any interpretation to go off of, and this might not be cleared up for years.

Just settle for CM2 and it'll be upgraded in the future.

i dont think its wise to do that just to be "on the safe side". noone else does this. its blatantly cm1. but w/e atp

 

[Mbpoops]

i dont think its wise to do that just to be "on the safe side". noone else does this. its blatantly cm1. but w/e atp

we arent dragon ball heros we cant have cm1 energy

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

i dont think its wise to do that just to be "on the safe side". noone else does this. its blatantly cm1. but w/e atp

I'd rather not go back and forth on a debunk for ages and spend time trying to restore the rating to CM2.

 

[Quantumnessmechanics]

give Cocoon 11-A rating with BDE type 1

 

[Mbpoops]

give Cocoon 11-A rating with BDE type 1

soon

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

I'd rather not go back and forth on a debunk for ages and spend time trying to restore the rating to CM2.

adding and downgrading something is easier than going back to re-interpret an argument already used for something. how are you gonna argue that a cm1 feat is cm2, get a repeat of this feat and suddenly decide its cm1. its clownery.

 

[Mbpoops]

36-39 is so... sleeepppp.

the vita fight was good tho hype moments and aura and what not i like horb seele

 

[SuperNova55555]

Nono. Beyond time and space is repeated several times. It is literally called a 'Realm beyond time and space' - It's not an analogy.

Not sure what this is supposed to address. That it’s repeated isn’t mutually exclusive with it being analogical, so I’m confused.

There can be another explanation, like something else about HE, rather than 'Cocoon lacks HE' (retconning something we know explicitly).

Are you saying we should assume a headcanon to rectify something that isn’t even a problem?

Don't they speak of strange loops, a structure which spirals up continuously until it returns to the point where it began? How would a 1D object loop like that other than concerning dimensionality, looping upwards through dimensionality while all being at the same point throughout all dimensions? It'd explain Herrscher cores rather succinctly, considering they exist upon all dimensions

The statement right before the Singularity statement explains how Imaginary Space can have mathematically impossible structures… like literally right before that.

• Imaginary Energy = substrate
• Path = governing / conceptual structure
• Path determines how IE manifests
• Path can alter what exists under it at a conceptual level

^^^^^what i am arguing^^^^
also, i think you are undecided yourself cuz... you have 2 contradicting statements. “the concept would be the governing factor of the energy” but also: “the concept is a quantifier for the differentiation of the energy’s function”

Those two are incompatible. if it governs energy, it's ontologically above. if it quantifies it, it's below it.

besides, what RM said about voracity is a CM1 feat hands down. that's undisputed. what's left is for us to find whether paths have CM2 anti-feats bc that's still not clear.

I’m highly confused what the contradiction with it being a quantifier or governor or whatever is. You’re randomly(?) just asserting that one or the other is above or below…? It seems like just a bunch of random unqualified babble. Quantifier there is being used to refer to something like a quantifier predicate. Think of stuff like the universal predicate ∀

Whether it's CM1 or CM2 depends on what you think is the form of the concept.

If you think the Aeon represents the form of the concept and is the purest thing there is of the path, then it's CM1.
If you think it's not the Aeon that's the purest form of the concept and it's something else, it's CM2.

Confused how any of this relates to the Type of the concept.

 

[Doggo]

All im seeing here is Tier 1 Hook

 

[Scrubforhire]

I finally ran it back and got E2 Cyrene after the abysmal pulling session that was her first banner (lost every ******* 50/50 and was stuck on e1 for months)

And wow this E2 Phainon E2 Cyrene team really just does everything huh

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Not sure what this is supposed to address. That it’s repeated isn’t mutually exclusive with it being analogical, so I’m confused.

I'm saying it isn't analogical.

Are you saying we should assume a headcanon to rectify something that isn’t even a problem?

I'm just saying there's a gap in our knowledge of HE if the Cocoon, something beyond space and time, possesses it while also transcending all dimensions.

The statement right before the Singularity statement explains how Imaginary Space can have mathematically impossible structures… like literally right before that.

A strange loop IS a mathematically impossible structure.

Confused how any of this relates to the Type of the concept.

Because if Tayzzyronth represents the concept and is shaped by the concept, he's CM2 as changing Tayzzyronth changes the concept itself.

If Tayzzyronth IS the concept, it's CM1. I think Nighting is arguing that Aeons are their paths / the concept of the Path.

 

[Scrubforhire]

I deadass might be able to do plight with this man 3.7-5 million per meteor is nuts

 

[SuperNova55555]

I'm saying it isn't analogical.

Holistically not true by the way.

I'm just saying there's a gap in our knowledge of HE if the Cocoon, something beyond space and time, possesses it while also transcending all dimensions.

Iirc isnt it stated that Cocoon needs to absorb HE to create HoF…? Or is that another one of the billion larped statements?

A strange loop IS a mathematically impossible structure.

Yea, I know…? What’s your point?

Because if Tayzzyronth represents the concept and is shaped by the concept, he's CM2 as changing Tayzzyronth changes the concept itself.

If Tayzzyronth IS the concept, it's CM1. I think Nighting is arguing that Aeons are their paths / the concept of the Path.

Aeons are just amalgamations of condensed philosophy. They wouldn’t be the universals themselves, like explicitly so. Paths only change if you change the Path’s concept, not the Aeons.

I mean it would cause many issues too. Like for example how it’d be possible for an Aeon to turn away from their Path. Because then it also makes the function double just like the IE thing.

 

[Cassette95]

the strongest honkai character is the random ass imaginary barrier around the hi3 solar system

It genuinely is not special.




Also now that I think about it, how did it ever get to this point when that's literally how that chapter opens. Its almost mandela effect tier the way every seems to remember the barrier having properties it actually doesn't.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Holistically not true by the way.

Agree to disagree.

Iirc isnt it stated that Cocoon needs to absorb HE to create HoF…? Or is that another one of the billion larped statements?

'Humans can't live together with Honkai, Imaginary Energy will continue to flow into the Cocoon of Finality and catalyze the birth of the Herrscher of Finality.'

In the very next few sentences Hare says:
'If you want to see the Cocoon of Finality, you probably need to have the power of Finality.'

She also says:
'Although I'm capable of treading the boundary between dream and reality, I'm incapable of witnessing truth beyond space and time.'

So Hare doesn't know anything and is just using information she's learnt from Kevin (as a World Serpent member) to talk about the previous Herrscher of Finality. (HoTE). All they knew there was that the Cocoon existed and it wanted to embrace.
They learned the Cocoon existed through Imaginary Endings, specifically the Imaginary Ending linking the world to the Tree (allowing Prometheus to become the Will of Honkai upon Earth) and of course knowing there was a higher being governing it.

Of course, as we learn in later chapters, the Cocoon enables (direct) perception of itself for those it wants. Hare wouldn't be able to perceive the Cocoon. This beyond space-time Cocoon cannot be seen by Hare.

So not only will I discredit Hare (as she discredits herself, and admits she can't see the Cocoon), but this is inconsistent with how Herrschers are made in the first place.

A Herrscher is created when the Cocoon projects a portion of itself. This creates a channel linked to the Imaginary Tree from the core.

Kevin: 'You were chosen. A channel linked to the Imaginary Tree will forever remain with you.' - Chapter 17, further proven by the Imaginary Bleed in Chapter 17's narrative.

The core also exists upon all dimensions, which is why I'm also talking about strange loops, spiralling upwards through dimensionality to return to the start. A literal point (1 dimensional) but existing in all dimensions.
The Herrscher of Finality then transcends all dimensions, just being superior to Herrschers as a whole.

So why would it need to absorb HE to project itself, when it's outright called the 'Dominator of Honkai' and it can 'Freely manipulate Imaginary Endings' - Hare is just ass. That's why.

Yea, I know…? What’s your point?

Then we're saying the same thing lol.

Aeons are just amalgamations of condensed philosophy. They wouldn’t be the universals themselves, like explicitly so. Paths only change if you change the Path’s concept, not the Aeons.

I mean it would cause many issues too. Like for example how it’d be possible for an Aeon to turn away from their Path. Because then it also makes the function double just like the IE thing.

Aeons can't turn away from their Path. That's what a Primum Mobile is. It's a law that restricts what they can do.

I think there's an argument that the Aeons are the philosophy as when they ascend they literally create that Philosophy for everyone to use as Path Energy, and via Primum Mobiles can't change from it.

Admittedly, loose. That's why CM2 is preferable.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Aeons can't turn away from their Path. That's what a Primum Mobile is. It's a law that restricts what they can do.

Right. You haven’t played Planarcadia. I recommend you open the wiki page for Aeons and read about the third method on how an Aeon is killed.

'Although I'm capable of treading the boundary between dream and reality, I'm incapable of witnessing truth beyond space and time.'

But since I haven’t played to that part yet, I lack the true reading to actually tell you whether this statement is said in a way in which it is meant to discredit the other ones, since of course I lack the context.

So why would it need to absorb HE to project itself, when it's outright called the 'Dominator of Honkai' and it can 'Freely manipulate Imaginary Endings' - Hare is just ass. That's why.

The latter statement doesn’t implicate the former paragraph though. We are told that Cocoon has true control on the Honkai in Imaginary Endings, not of Imaginary Energy itself.

So there’s no contradiction if the origin of where Herrschers get IE (the Tree) is also the origin of where Cocoon gets IE. Because mind you, Imaginary Endings are pinned by the planet itself, of which then the Cocoon utilizes.

In any case, I’ll leave this here and give you better thoughts once I finish the last chapter myself since I’m really working on some fragmented info rn.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

But since I haven’t played to that part yet, I lack the true reading to actually tell you whether this statement is said in a way in which it is meant to discredit the other ones, since of course I lack the context.

This is Chapter 33. Also the 'true reading' is subjective and you know this as well as anyone else lol.

The latter statement doesn’t implicate the former paragraph though. We are told that Cocoon has true control on the Honkai in Imaginary Endings, not of Imaginary Energy itself.

So there’s no contradiction if the origin of where Herrschers get IE (the Tree) is also the origin of where Cocoon gets IE. Because mind you, Imaginary Endings are pinned by the planet itself, of which then the Cocoon utilizes.

In any case, I’ll leave this here and give you better thoughts once I finish the last chapter myself since I’m really working on some fragmented info rn.

Anyway, I'm just pointing out that there's no reason to believe Hare here.

I have heard about the 3rd way to kill an Aeon thing which is admittedly mb, just forgot about that.

 

[SuperNova55555]

I have heard about the 3rd way to kill an Aeon thing which is admittedly mb, just forgot about that.

Play the game bro