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Paraconsistent addition for MGKverse

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ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
I see, but in that case, you would have to drop Wank Nihility.
Click to expand...
By the way, do you guys agree about the thread?

General Order 2 truth state

Oneness/Great order 3 truth state

Arcana paradox/Absurdity 4-5 Truth state

Nihility 6 Truth state

Chaos 7 truth state
 
Vietthai96 said:
Nice contradicting argument
Click to expand...

Alright, honestly, I think this thread could’ve been done better if I’d made it myself, but whatever. The logical Chaos and Disorder they’re referring to is actually Aganzon’s Order. This is because 無秩序 (Muchitsujo), which means 'Disorder', still possesses its own logic. Thus, Aganzon’s Chaos/Chaotic nature is different from Anos’s Chaos.

For Aganzon, the term used is 狂乱 (Kyouran), which still maintains logic despite the absence of a General Order. On the other hand, Anos uses 混沌 (Konton). Of course, translations use the exact same word, 'Chaos', for both, but the author clearly distinguishes between them.
 
Ihsjihahxu said:
By the way, do you guys agree about the thread?

General Order 2 truth state

Oneness/Great order 3 truth state

Arcana paradox/Absurdity 4-5 Truth state

Nihility 6 Truth state

Chaos 7 truth state
Click to expand...
Yeah hmm, I still see logic as a truth state but I'm too busy to argue for it, may be my own bias too but it doesn't matter, this could be proposed in the future once Silver Sea is introduced and more logic-based feats appear.
 
General Order

I disagree with using the coin analogy as a way to treat the opposing states of Order as two truth states.

Our paraconsistency page says this:
This can be linked to the idea of dualities and hence also Nonduality. True and false are dualities, as is having and not having a property. In that way, being beyond such dualities would qualify as having Paraconsistent Physiology. More generally, existing outside of any duality where it's logically necessary to participate in one or the other would qualify.
Click to expand...

Meanwhile, the texts you provide explicitly say that Destruction and Creation are not even opposites. What is the opposite of the order of creation is "Chaos", which is the absense of order (so to say, the presence and absense of creation, A and Not A).

“The world is full of various orders. Life is born, deepens, meets its demise, and then changes. This is the cycle based on the order of the Four Principles. And so I ask you this, Goddess of Creation. What is the opposite of the order of destruction?”
Misha paused for a brief moment.
“The order of creation.”
“Aye, that is what I once believed. But then I realized—this was most likely incorrect. The opposite of the order of destruction isn’t the order of creation. This is because destruction and creation are two sides of the same order, and Militia and Abernyu are two sisters, two sides of a divine coin,”
Click to expand...
and
Instead of using the opposite of creation, use the opposite of order. In other words, to destroy the order of creation, you use the chaos of creation. That is, if that’s even possible.”
“Aye.”
Dilfred pointed at me.
The absence of order is called chaos—this is the same thought we had. But at the same time, it’s a little different. It’s not that order is missing; it’s that chaos exists at all. If order is correct, then chaos is the wrong law of nature. And that is what your source of destruction really is.”
Click to expand...
Creation and Destruction, Birth and Abortion, they are not logical negations of each other, and the texts themselves say they are not opposites, not even in the sense that they can cancel out each other.

However, I think you could take "Order" as a whole, as 1 truth value (True/A), and Chaos as the other truth value (False/Not A)

Since that is not what you are proposing, I disagree with the interpretation you're making from the provided texts.

Oneness Order
I have the same thoughts to this as to the last section. The only change is that the verse itself seems to treat "Order" as one state, so that gives one all the more reason to treat it as simply "A/True" in truth values, and Chaos as the opposite.

Order of Absurdity
From what I understand, the "order" of Absurdity is the opposite of Order, despite being an Order itself. It is also both the order of creation and the order of destruction. Equis is treated as the collective of all "Order", so by default it should also contain the Order of Absurdity.

Absurdity in the same texts is also called "Omneity", which is to be all-comprehensive or all-encompassing. Here it could be referring to being both creation and destruction, and being able to manifest both at once (interpretation based on this that you provided)

But before I say something more, I want to ask a question:
Can Eques manifest both sides of a coin (order) at the same time?

Arcana/Paradox
I'm confused here. The texts you provide for this supposed "Arcana" and "Order of Contradiction" is talkinga about Order of Absurdity, which you talked about in the previous section.

Did you perhaps link the wrong text?

Regardless, even if what you said is true, that simply further contradicts your own claims made previously. If Order of Absurdity is the opposite of order, and then order of contradiction is opposite of order including absurdity... this is just a matter of range and scope of influence being limited/different, not about being logical negations or paraconsistent.

The first section's texts already establish Chaos as the absense of order, which qualifies for another truth state, so Absurdity wouldn't be another truth state, just another sub-aspect of whatever the absolute grand total of order is.

Because in one section you're bringing up something being the collective of all order, in another section you say there's an order outside that collective of "all" order that opposes it, and then once again you say there's an order encompassing both of those... for all those reasons, this seems to me as nothing other than a matter of the scope of influence of whatever arbitrary order is being talked about at a point.

Nihility
The whole "being beyond the bounds of this world's order" seems like a range matter to me. However, Graham in particular seems interesting.

If Graham's nothingness is the absense of order, then what is the difference between it and Chaos?

Wank Nihility
No comment



@DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa @Random-Helper323 @Vietthai96 Your help would be appreciated here.

@DontTalkDT since you revised the Nonduality/Paraconsistency Standards, your input would also be valuable.
 
Ihsjihahxu said:
From Dilfed’s statement, we learn that a single “coin” possesses two Orders existing simultaneously as complementary opposites.
Every Order possesses an opposite counterpart, such as Wenzel and Andeluc, as well as Miritia and Abernyu. However, despite being opposites, they are still “two sides of the same coin,” incapable of meeting one another.
When the sun of destruction spreads despair, there can be no moon of creation shining its light to nurture life.
This demonstrates that Order embodies both truth and falsehood simultaneously, existing together as a dual structure.
Click to expand...
The opposite of the order of destruction isn’t the order of creation. This is because destruction and creation are two sides of the same
order,
Click to expand...
Literally destruction isn't opposition to creation

So general order did
Ihsjihahxu said:
Arcana’s Order destroys logic itself and contradicts all other Orders.
Click to expand...
Bruhh, i read the evidence and eh.....i don't see this at all


Ihsjihahxu said:
The Order of Absurdity simultaneously represents both destruction and creation at the same time.
Click to expand...
It is Absurdity cause it is destruction and creation at the same time, but again those are contrary, not logical contradictory. I said this already in previous thread trying to make Arcana nondual


Ihsjihahxu said:
Arcana’s Order is the Order of contradiction itself — an Order that opposes laws, opposes logic, and even opposes its own contradictory nature established beforehand.
Click to expand...
Yeah this isn't paradox or anything you might have think of, the evidencr is just she herself defies her own power. X negate other power is pretty common among fictions.


Ihsjihahxu said:
All Order has its own logic.
That logic functions as the structure or operational process governing the Order itself.

For example, the Order of Destruction destroys all things until they are reduced to 0.

This occurs according to the logic that governs how the Order operates in that manner, which is why it encompasses all Orders.
Click to expand...
So, from what i could see, the logic here mean how thing operate, a system, order is the system that living being should obey. Not anything related to paraconsistent physiology for you to have a truth state on it

Ihsjihahxu said:
Chaos is disorder, and the opposite of order
Click to expand...
So chaos is opposite of order, but above order?. Wut


Ihsjihahxu said:
Wank Nihility
Click to expand...
I remember i already agreed with Nihility have PP in the previous thread so i'm fine with this having PP, though i can't see you get more truth states from getting destroyed further. Iirc Abos destroy the logic that nothingness can't be destroyed, not that he destroy the logic of nothingness. So it is just deeper layer of nothingness, not any increases in truth state

All in all, i'm fine with anyone with Nihility or beyond reason having PP2, but i don't see PP3 or anything close to 5 truth states
 
RaikiKurohane99 said:
General Order

I disagree with using the coin analogy as a way to treat the opposing states of Order as two truth states.

Our paraconsistency page says this:


Meanwhile, the texts you provide explicitly say that Destruction and Creation are not even opposites. What is the opposite of the order of creation is "Chaos", which is the absense of order (so to say, the presence and absense of creation, A and Not A).


and

Creation and Destruction, Birth and Abortion, they are not logical negations of each other, and the texts themselves say they are not opposites, not even in the sense that they can cancel out each other.

However, I think you could take "Order" as a whole, as 1 truth value (True/A), and Chaos as the other truth value (False/Not A)

Since that is not what you are proposing, I disagree with the interpretation you're making from the provided texts.
Click to expand...
I'll only argue about the General order.
The order of destruction and the order of creation; it is existence and non-existence.
Why?
I'd like us to look at a quote from Dilfred.

Militia and Abernyu are two sisters, two sides of a divine coin,”
the God of Depth said in a serious tone
Click to expand...
Militia and abernyu is two sides of a divine coin
We know they are opposites, but why is it about existence and non-existence?
“Let us assume the current amount of creation in the world has a value
of one. What would be required to remove this creation from the world
without destroying the god? Adding a value of one to the order of
destruction? Nay, that would only mean one item is created, and one item
is destroyed. Creation is still happening. Destruction merely happens
afterwards.”
Click to expand...
Creation has a value of only 1, which represents existence. But if we want to destroy creation, we have to increase the value of destruction from 0 to 1, right?

From Dilfred's words, we know that the values of creation and destruction are 1 and 0, which are exis and non exist

Our paraconsistency page says this:
This can be linked to the idea of dualities and hence also Nonduality. True and false are dualities, as is having and not having a property. In that way, being beyond such dualities would qualify as having Paraconsistent Physiology. More generally, existing outside of any duality where it's logically necessary to participate in one or the other would qualify.
Click to expand...

What Paraconsistent logic requires is something that must simultaneously be "is and not is."

Yes — the opposite of life is non-life, which can be anything that is not death.
However, Termination of life ≠ death, yet it encompasses death partially — since it is not a god of death, it therefore does not constitute death in its entirety.
But the evidence of their connection shows they are intertwined — as two sides of a single Order coin.

It is clearly defined that they mutually sustain one another: if there is creation, there must be destruction — neither can be absent. Yet the two cannot coexist simultaneously.

However, should either one be absent, the other would cease to exist as well.
And that is the role of Order — to fulfill the cycle of logic in its completeness.
If one concept exists at a given moment, its polar opposite will non-exist — yet both are necessary to one another.


I'll get back to arguing later because I'm busy right now.
 
RaikiKurohane99 said:
General Order

I disagree with using the coin analogy as a way to treat the opposing states of Order as two truth states.

Our paraconsistency page says this:


Meanwhile, the texts you provide explicitly say that Destruction and Creation are not even opposites. What is the opposite of the order of creation is "Chaos", which is the absense of order (so to say, the presence and absense of creation, A and Not A).


and

Creation and Destruction, Birth and Abortion, they are not logical negations of each other, and the texts themselves say they are not opposites, not even in the sense that they can cancel out each other.

However, I think you could take "Order" as a whole, as 1 truth value (True/A), and Chaos as the other truth value (False/Not A)

Since that is not what you are proposing, I disagree with the interpretation you're making from the provided texts.
Click to expand...
Like I said, this thread isn't quite good enough yet, but I don't think your counterargument is correct either. We can cite the Author that a CONTRADICTION only occurs when we violate the Order (which hasn't been translated yet). We can also reference Veneziara, which causes Anos to draw and not draw his sword at the same time. This should be a logical negation because it's the relationship between IS and IS-NOT. If the proposition 'Anos draws his sword' is false, it means the proposition 'Anos IS NOT draw his sword' must be true, as there is no middle ground between A and NOT-A which is the fundamental basis of LEM (Law of Excluded Middle). The power of the Almighty One can possess both of these attributes simultaneously, even though the story states that 'logic is absurd' and causes a contradiction.

You might ask how they are related. It's because Arcana violated Livyangilma's Order, allowing her to draw the sword (similar to how Veneziara makes someone draw and not draw at the same time), which is the same achievement as DESTRUCTION and CREATION occurring simultaneously (which requires violating the Order).

Even if this gets debunked, the existence of Order and Disorder still hasn't been debunked anyway.
RaikiKurohane99 said:
Oneness Order
I have the same thoughts to this as to the last section. The only change is that the verse itself seems to treat "Order" as one state, so that gives one all the more reason to treat it as simply "A/True" in truth values, and Chaos as the opposite.
Click to expand...
As we all know, Almighty One = Oneness Order. This is further proven because Anos stated that the Almighty One should be able to draw and not draw the sword at the same time. Furthermore, Aganzon (Order of Disorder) is a part of him
 
Ihsjihahxu said:
I'll only argue about the General order.
The order of destruction and the order of creation; it is existence and non-existence.
Why?
I'd like us to look at a quote from Dilfred.

Militia and abernyu is two sides of a divine coin
We know they are opposites, but why is it about existence and non-existence?
Creation has a value of only 1, which represents existence. But if we want to destroy creation, we have to increase the value of destruction from 0 to 1, right?

From Dilfred's words, we know that the values of creation and destruction are 1 and 0, which are exis and non exist
Click to expand...
Your texts don't talk about existence or nonexistence, but about the act of creation and destruction itself. It is more so adding and removing things from pre-existing creation, rather than something as broad as existence and Non-existence.
Ihsjihahxu said:
Our paraconsistency page says this:

This can be linked to the idea of dualities and hence also Nonduality. True and false are dualities, as is having and not having a property. In that way, being beyond such dualities would qualify as having Paraconsistent Physiology. More generally, existing outside of any duality where it's logically necessary to participate in one or the other would qualify.
Click to expand...
And that "is and is not" must be logically contradictory to each other, not metaphysically contrary.
Ihsjihahxu said:
Yes — the opposite of life is non-life, which can be anything that is not death.
However, Termination of life ≠ death, yet it encompasses death partially — since it is not a god of death, it therefore does not constitute death in its entirety.
But the evidence of their connection shows they are intertwined — as two sides of a single Order coin.

It is clearly defined that they mutually sustain one another: if there is creation, there must be destruction — neither can be absent. Yet the two cannot coexist simultaneously.

However, should either one be absent, the other would cease to exist as well.
And that is the role of Order — to fulfill the cycle of logic in its completeness.
If one concept exists at a given moment, its polar opposite will non-exist — yet both are necessary to one another.


I'll get back to arguing later because I'm busy right now.
Click to expand...
The logical duality of non-life and life is such that non-life can be anything that isn't, well, "life". It can be dead people, undead, or whatever else a setting can have.

We don't give undead beings Nonduality just because they are dead but also possess some definition of life (i.e., they can move).

Frankly, I'm not getting your argument on how any of this is logical contradictions. As both me and Vietthai pointed out above, creation and destruction are contrary, not contradictory. You can for example stop time in a way that entropy doesn't increase or decrease, nothing is added or removed, and so no creation or destruction happens, but that doesn't make this state nondual. Time stop is still a logically possible thing.

An actual Paraconsistent state would not even be representable by any logically possible world.

Even the texts you quote in the OP point at this. Creation and Destruction are two sides of one coin, not opposites. Chaos would be the logically opposite state (Not A), and something that is neither chaos nor order would be Paraconsistent.

You can however give Graham and the "nothingness outside of order" Paraconsistent Physiology type 1.

Paraconsistent Physiology type 2 requires all of one's properties to be contradictory. For example, they are speaking yet not speaking, they are here but not here, they exist but don't exist, they move but also don't move.

General: Beings which exist beyond the confines of classical logic in general, in a fashion that they may occupy both the value "true and false" or "neither true nor false" regarding any of their properties. This includes characters existing in a nondual state regarding all logical dual systems within an entire level of reality in a way that makes them occupy both or neither state of the dualities in question.
Click to expand...
Graham's nothing only seems to be an exception to the existence and Non-existence duality.
 
I don't really like the argument claiming that Destruction and Creation aren't opposites just because Chaos is the actual opposite. In reality, the Order of Creation is opposite to the Chaos of Creation, not because it's the opposite of Creation itself, but because it's the opposite of "ORDER." What we need is a logical negation, which is the relationship between True and False. We need contradiction logic. However, that argument is talking about the opposite of Orderness, not the opposite of the Attribute of Creation.


My question is: Do we need a logical negation that is the relationship between True AND False, or the relationship between Logic AND Non-logic? Chaos shouldn't even be used as a counterargument
 
Hirotoswnn1x said:
Like I said, this thread isn't quite good enough yet, but I don't think your counterargument is correct either. We can cite the Author that a CONTRADICTION only occurs when we violate the Order (which hasn't been translated yet). We can also reference Veneziara, which causes Anos to draw and not draw his sword at the same time. This should be a logical negation because it's the relationship between IS and IS-NOT. If the proposition 'Anos draws his sword' is false, it means the proposition 'Anos IS NOT draw his sword' must be true, as there is no middle ground between A and NOT-A which is the fundamental basis of LEM (Law of Excluded Middle). The power of the Almighty One can possess both of these attributes simultaneously, even though the story states that 'logic is absurd' and causes a contradiction.
Click to expand...
If there are untranslated scans you want to use (and I assume it's more than just the one you linked), you should request them for translation in the translation thread.
Hirotoswnn1x said:
You might ask how they are related. It's because Arcana violated Livyangilma's Order, allowing her to draw the sword (similar to how Veneziara makes someone draw and not draw at the same time), which is the same achievement as DESTRUCTION and CREATION occurring simultaneously (which requires violating the Order).

Even if this gets debunked, the existence of Order and Disorder still hasn't been debunked anyway.
Click to expand...
I haven't seen what you said in the first para so no comment on that

As for Order and Chaos/Disorder, I do think they can be logical negations of each other as Order and Absense of Order

Hirotoswnn1x said:
As we all know, Almighty One = Oneness Order. This is further proven because Anos stated that the Almighty One should be able to draw and not draw the sword at the same time. Furthermore, Aganzon (Order of Disorder) is a part of him
Click to expand...
Same as above, I don't see it being mentioned in the OP, so no comment
 
RaikiKurohane99 said:
Your texts don't talk about existence or nonexistence, but about the act of creation and destruction itself. It is more so adding and removing things from pre-existing creation, rather than something as broad as existence and Non-existence.

And that "is and is not" must be logically contradictory to each other, not metaphysically contrary.

The logical duality of non-life and life is such that non-life can be anything that isn't, well, "life". It can be dead people, undead, or whatever else a setting can have.

We don't give undead beings Nonduality just because they are dead but also possess some definition of life (i.e., they can move).

Frankly, I'm not getting your argument on how any of this is logical contradictions. As both me and Vietthai pointed out above, creation and destruction are contrary, not contradictory. You can for example stop time in a way that entropy doesn't increase or decrease, nothing is added or removed, and so no creation or destruction happens, but that doesn't make this state nondual. Time stop is still a logically possible thing.

An actual Paraconsistent state would not even be representable by any logically possible world.

Even the texts you quote in the OP point at this. Creation and Destruction are two sides of one coin, not opposites. Chaos would be the logically opposite state (Not A), and something that is neither chaos nor order would be Paraconsistent.

You can however give Graham and the "nothingness outside of order" Paraconsistent Physiology type 1.

Paraconsistent Physiology type 2 requires all of one's properties to be contradictory. For example, they are speaking yet not speaking, they are here but not here, they exist but don't exist, they move but also don't move.


Graham's nothing only seems to be an exception to the existence and Non-existence duality.
Click to expand...
RaikiKurohane99 said:
General Order

I disagree with using the coin analogy as a way to treat the opposing states of Order as two truth states.

Our paraconsistency page says this:


Meanwhile, the texts you provide explicitly say that Destruction and Creation are not even opposites. What is the opposite of the order of creation is "Chaos", which is the absense of order (so to say, the presence and absense of creation, A and Not A).


and

Creation and Destruction, Birth and Abortion, they are not logical negations of each other, and the texts themselves say they are not opposites, not even in the sense that they can cancel out each other.

However, I think you could take "Order" as a whole, as 1 truth value (True/A), and Chaos as the other truth value (False/Not A)

Since that is not what you are proposing, I disagree with the interpretation you're making from the provided texts.

Oneness Order
I have the same thoughts to this as to the last section. The only change is that the verse itself seems to treat "Order" as one state, so that gives one all the more reason to treat it as simply "A/True" in truth values, and Chaos as the opposite.

Order of Absurdity
From what I understand, the "order" of Absurdity is the opposite of Order, despite being an Order itself. It is also both the order of creation and the order of destruction. Equis is treated as the collective of all "Order", so by default it should also contain the Order of Absurdity.

Absurdity in the same texts is also called "Omneity", which is to be all-comprehensive or all-encompassing. Here it could be referring to being both creation and destruction, and being able to manifest both at once (interpretation based on this that you provided)

But before I say something more, I want to ask a question:
Can Eques manifest both sides of a coin (order) at the same time?

Arcana/Paradox
I'm confused here. The texts you provide for this supposed "Arcana" and "Order of Contradiction" is talkinga about Order of Absurdity, which you talked about in the previous section.

Did you perhaps link the wrong text?

Regardless, even if what you said is true, that simply further contradicts your own claims made previously. If Order of Absurdity is the opposite of order, and then order of contradiction is opposite of order including absurdity... this is just a matter of range and scope of influence being limited/different, not about being logical negations or paraconsistent.

The first section's texts already establish Chaos as the absense of order, which qualifies for another truth state, so Absurdity wouldn't be another truth state, just another sub-aspect of whatever the absolute grand total of order is.

Because in one section you're bringing up something being the collective of all order, in another section you say there's an order outside that collective of "all" order that opposes it, and then once again you say there's an order encompassing both of those... for all those reasons, this seems to me as nothing other than a matter of the scope of influence of whatever arbitrary order is being talked about at a point.

Nihility
The whole "being beyond the bounds of this world's order" seems like a range matter to me. However, Graham in particular seems interesting.

If Graham's nothingness is the absense of order, then what is the difference between it and Chaos?

Wank Nihility
No comment



@DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa @Random-Helper323 @Vietthai96 Your help would be appreciated here.

@DontTalkDT since you revised the Nonduality/Paraconsistency Standards, your input would also be valuable.
Click to expand...
So I'll start over. The Sword of Almighty is a sword forged from the Omnipotent/Almighty.
It is a sword that can and cannot be drawn. When someone draws a sword, the sword destroys the source of that person's power, causing their death. Therefore, the sword becomes one that uses the conflicting effects of both drawing and not drawing simultaneously, in order to avoid being affected by it.

Anos argued that if the sword can be drawn, it would not be Omnipotent — but if it cannot be drawn, it would also not be Omnipotent.

However, Anos provided the answer that the Omnipotent can both draw and not draw the sword simultaneously.

What... What nonsense is this? Such a thing isn't possible. It's a contradiction!"

I grinned at Ahid's bewilderment. "That is what Veneziara for you. Whether it be sheathed or unsheathed, both possibilities exist at the same time."

I might draw the sword, and I might not draw the sword. It was only natural for both possibilities to exist at the same time.

"And so, I realized both possibilities at once. Contradicting forms of Veneziara can exist concurrently because they are only possibilities."

Ahid looked as though his mind had gone completely blank. "But the moment they were realized, they would have contradicted each other. If you hadn't drawn the sword, my body would be unharmed. If you had, you would have vanished. It doesn't make any sense!"

"Indeed, the logic is absurd. That is because this trial of the almighty one's sword was made by someone who isn't almighty. The logic of those who aren't almighty does not apply to the almighty. And, since the almighty one is almighty, they cannot be governed by logic in the first place
Click to expand...

And Anos did draw the Sword of Almighty by using Veneziara —
a magic that creates a contradiction form, giving it the property of "is and is not" simultaneously. Thus Anos drew the sword and did not draw it at the same time.

ヴェネジアラは、色々極悪な魔法がある本作の中でもかなり強いですよね。

可能性を実現させる魔法なので。

これを得意としたのが、アノスの実の父、セリス・ヴォルディゴードなので、アノスの血族特有の魔法のように思います。少なくとも、未来は一つしか選べないという秩序を壊しているので、不適合者と呼ばれるぐらいでなければ使えないと思っていただ
ければ。
Veneziara does not rely on Order, and makes what would happen actually happen.

When Order is not something that contradicts — if undisturbed — according to the author's words, if Order behaves abnormally it will produce a contradiction.

In normal Order, creation and destruction are opposites of each other.
The Greater Order of Almighty is the unification of Orders, which governs Orders that are opposite to each other. It is said that all gods are things governed by One Order.

What proves the "opposite" nature is duality logic — where Order, when disturbed, produces contradictions like Veneziara. (Which hasn't been translated yet — I hope you'll translate it for everyone too.)

Order has a Processing/Logic which is said to be opposite, thus having logical values where Orders are opposite to each other.
And what Paraconsistent logic requires is something that must be "is and is not".

Yes, the opposite of life is non-life, which can be anything that is not life. Sorry about that — in the previous message I typed a bit carelessly. I hope you don't mind.

But termination of life ≠ death, though it covers death partially. It is not the god of death, so it is not the entirety of death. But its evidence is interrelated — they are the two sides of the same coin of Order.

Another thing that proves General Order is the manifestation of Absurdity — which has the power to violate rules and logic and recreate the world.
When Order functions abnormally, a contradiction arises — as in the case of Veneziara used by Anos to draw and not draw the sword simultaneously. The power of Absurdity can draw Livyangilma and distorts the Order of Livyangilma — a sword that can and cannot be drawn simultaneously — causing a Veneziara-type contradiction.
And in the case of Arcana's manifestation of destructive and creative power — when we consider the Balance of Order — we understand that Arcana causes Destruction and Creation to occur simultaneously.
This relates logically in the same way as "is and not is".

The heretical god in legend, betrayed and treacherous, who lost faith in the gods and order. A masterpiece by the Misfit Graham. As we know from above, this lawless god is a lawless force, a power that defies logic and order, causing chaos and meaninglessness..

And Levihelorta is a twisted order that stands in opposition to order itself. Through this anti-order power, it nullifies/erases the paradox of the Order of Livyangilma, allowing her to simultaneously draw and not draw the sword.

With this power, the sun and moon of creation and destruction arise at the same time — a power that causes two opposites to occur simultaneously — which violates the Law of Non-Contradiction and the Law of Excluded Middle.

With this power, Arcana can act in the manner of the Almighty — powers of logical contradiction become ineffective.

And the sun and moon that appear together thus become something that is both and neither simultaneously.

What I’m trying to say is that Orders are opposites in the sense of “is” and “not is.”
When an Order functions normally, it does not create a contradiction unlike cases such as Veneziara or Almighty, which can make two opposing states occur simultaneously. For example, drawing a sword and not drawing a sword at the same time—“is” and “not is.”
Arcana’s power works the same way. She was able to draw Livyangilma’s sword, which requires a contradiction in order to be drawn. That itself is “is” and “not is.”

Then, through that same power, she manifested both creation and destruction simultaneously while also being neither of them at the same time.

In other words, she forces the Order itself to function abnormally, producing a contradiction where “is” and “not is” coexist simultaneously. That is why the two sides of the same coin of Order become “is” and “not is.”

This article will clarify from General Order onward:

Greater Order is an Order that encompasses all Orders below it and transcends logical contradiction — as demonstrated by the case of being able to draw Livyangilma, a sword that can and cannot be drawn simultaneously, which is "is and is not" — because it is the totality of all Orders.

Conversely, what Absurdity can do is something that is "both and neither" — and also neither Greater Order — because the Order of Absurdity is something that can nullify even the unified Order. It negates the unified Order that contains contradiction.
 
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RaikiKurohane99 said:
What is the opposite of the order of creation is "Chaos", which is the absense of order (so to say, the presence and absense of creation, A and Not A)
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This is literally what it's saying it's not.
Vietthai96 said:
It is Absurdity cause it is destruction and creation at the same time

Yeah this isn't paradox or anything you might have think of, the evidencr is just she herself defies her own power. X negate other power is pretty common among fictions.
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Not to sound self-important but you're both wrong and this can be seen in the stuff you and Viet said but I honestly can't blame you for that because this thread is ass and you don't understand the character making the statements. I'd say just close it so sum1 else can do something better.

When he says destruction isn't the opposite of creation, he doesn't mean it literally. Literally, one of the aspects both orders govern is life and death respectively, so if someone tells you death isn't the opposite of life, do you believe them, take them as an idiot or a madman? In Anos' response to Dilfred's query using creation and destruction, he mentions the opposite of creation, once again referring to destruction as its opposite.
“Let us assume the current amount of creation in the world has a value of one. What would be required to remove this creation from the world without destroying the god? Adding a value of one to the order of destruction? Nay, that would only mean one item is created, and one item is destroyed. Creation is still happening. Destruction merely happens afterwards.”

Dilfred brought his folded hands to his mouth, the fingers of his left hand lightly tapping the back of his right.

“So what can be done? Misfit Anos Voldigoad, what are your thoughts on this?” Dilfred asked.

“If you don’t mind an armchair theory, I can provide one easily,” I replied.

“Let us hear it.”

“Instead of using the opposite of creation, use the opposite of order. In other words, to destroy the order of creation, you use the chaos of creation. That is, if that’s even possible.”
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If you take this literally, then your conclusion of chaos being the opposition or negation of creation is also wrong as chaos isn't the opposite of creation as implied there.

Dilfred can be taken as a philosopher. His order makes him the best at "looking into the abyss" which means to analyze and arrive at the truth. His eyes see deeply and his thoughts are equally as deep such that he can uncover most things just by thinking about it even though he can't arrive at the final answer.
Back on topic, he isn't saying creation and destruction aren't opposites but that neither can be used to remove the other as they are two sides of coin, a coin that is part of a much greater system. He's essentially saying "A and not A" are not opposites because they are still part of the system known as order hence, you cannot use "not A" to remove "A" and vice versa hence why he says
Let us assume the current amount of creation in the world has a value of one. What would be required to remove this creation from the world without destroying the god? Adding a value of one to the order of destruction? Nay, that would only mean one item is created, and one item is destroyed. Creation is still happening. Destruction merely happens afterwards.”
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The negation or opposition of one state is still part of the system hence you need something outside the system to remove or truly negate it. Chaos isn't the absence of order as the gods originally thought, chaos and order both exist simultaneously. If the system known as order is the union of all contradicting concepts (Both A and not A), you need something that is neither "A", "not A" nor "both A and not A" to negate that system which is what the chaos they are referring to is. Thus, Chaos is the opposite of every order there is.

Onto Arcana and the Order of Absurdity, the Order of Absurdity is something that isn't supposed to exist. It's existence came about by Graham distorting the system that is Order. The order of absurdity contradicts all order (A and not A) including the entire system (both A and not A). It isn't simply both creation and destruction as Viet said as the six flowers of absurdity which is her divine authority is both creation and destruction (the sun and the moon) but at the same time neither of those things.
“You’ve been deceived, Goddess of Termination—no, will of this world.”

Arcana stared at Andeluc and quietly closed her eyes. The next time she opened them, the arc of the Sun of Destruction and the crescent moon of Altiertonoa appeared in her Magic Eyes. Together they formed a circle—the true power of the Magic Eyes of Absurdity.

“The child of nihility distorted the Selection Trial. Right now, the balance of order is in complete disarray. Even though the Goddesses of Destruction and Creation have revived, my power as a proxy remains intact. In fact, I’m even stronger than before. He must have really wanted to laugh upon this world.”

Dancing flowers of ice appeared in her palms. Arcana slowly raised her hands, returning them to the skies.

“Snow falls in the spring sun; six flowers melt the world.”

Shining like the sun but with the cold radiance of the moon, the frozen flowers burned. More and more of these flowers gathered at Arcana’s back, creating something that resembled the sun and moon, yet wasn’t.
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The power of creation and destruction are just what she held originally as a proxy (I won't be going into what that is). Graham rewrote and distorted order to create the Order of Absurdity. It isn't simply the combination of creation and destruction otherwise Sasha and Misha's fused form will also be the Goddess of Absurdity but they aren't. They do not have the authority to contradict all order, the only thing their combined authorities can do is rewrite and recreate all things but the authority over contradictions solely stems from absurdity.
It has gods tweaking out cause like I said, such a thing shouldn't exist
“Springtime Hexabloom.”

“What? Is this...order?” Andeluc murmured in confusion, staring at the object that was creating the Springtime Hexabloom. They were six petals, burning and freezing at the same time. It emitted divine authority, and in its presence was the order of a god. “This can’t be possible... This—!”

Her Divine Eyes widened and she shook her head. As one of the Four Principles, the foundation of all order, she couldn’t believe the divine power before her eyes.

“This has to be a mistake! Such an order couldn’t possibly exist!”

“Moon rises not; sun falls. Spring illuminates the godless world,” Arcana recited in a tranquil voice. “Levihelorta.”

The burning flowers of ice released cold air and hot steam simultaneously. The flowers possessed two elements coexisting with each other when they should have been in conflict, and it was the power of that contradiction—the power to both freeze and burn the sea of termination—that disturbed the order of the Mother Sea. The forbidden soldiers that had sunk helplessly into the ocean were now illuminated by Levihelorta, allowing them to move once again and resume rescuing their demon allies, one after another.

“How? How are you swimming in my ocean? Unwanted babes shall be terminated! Terminated!” Andeluc yelled, swinging the Snake Forceps of Termination. Magic power surged, creating countless red threads in the Mother Sea, but instead of wrapping around their targets they began tangling around the master of the divine domain instead.

“Gyah! Wh-What?!”

“The area illuminated by Levihelorta is the domain of absurdity. Here, everything disobeys order.”

Andeluc’s Divine Eyes widened as she yelled. “Impossible! My termination cannot be disobeyed! Gods are order. Are you saying it’s possible to defy myself?!”
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If you're conclusions were correct, this should be limited to just creation and destruction however, all order is subject to the authority of absurdity. Equis that's a collective body of order will have all his power stolen by Arcana.
It was a fearsome power, worthy of the Goddess of Absurdity’s title. Perhaps Graham had even played a part in its formation—had even devised this method to defeat Equis after the altered Selection Trial set up the possibility of Equis’s birth. After all, Arcana’s powers as the Goddess of Absurdity had awakened just as Equis manifested and the Goddesses of Destruction and Creation were revived. It was hard to imagine that it was only a coincidence. If Levihelorta turned order into absurdity, then it should be able to render Equis, a collective body of order, powerless. All of Equis’s power would become the Goddess of Absurdity’s.
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Now even crazier, the order of absurdity doesn't exempt itself from the essence of contradiction or the distortion order. The Sword of the Almighty or the Sword of Absurdity is a blade that erases the source of anyone that draws it across the past, present and future. In other to draw the blade, one has to draw and not draw it at the same time, a play on the paradox of omnipotence. Its power is the Order of Absurdity and Arcana uses this very power to distort itself allowing her to draw the blade.
“Sword of Absurdity, Leviangilma.”

Springtime Hexabloom gathered in Arcana’s hand, forming the sword that, back when both Arcana’s memories and authority as a proxy had been sealed, Ahid had once called the Sword of the Almighty. It once required the Abolisher of Reason to be used, but not anymore.

Arcana had regained her memories and powers as a proxy, and the divine sword was returned to her. Thanks to this, all the pieces of the distorted Selection Trial were gathered together, and Arcana was able to show her true worth as the Goddess of Absurdity.

“This divine body has become eternal.”

“Die, you monster!”

Andeluc transformed her right arm into a snake of red threads that immediately tried to bite at Arcana. But the snake’s attack failed to touch her eternal divine body and the snake was erased.

“Order has no effect on me.”

Arcana quietly drew Leviangilma from its sheath, the silver blade shining beautifully as it was revealed. Though the Sword of the Almighty was meant to destroy whoever drew its blade, Arcana was unaffected. The Levihelorta had also distorted the order of the sword.
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I honestly don't understand where Viet got the idea that she just negates her own power. She used the essence of contradiction to distort the essence of contradiction. If she just negated it, then the weapon should have lost all its other abilities and her own authority she was using here should've been negated as well.

I won't be touching wank nihility here. Like I said, this thread is ass. Close it so someone else can make more coherent arguments as well as include all relevant scans
 
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What I am about to say is not in this OP, but it can support Paraconsistent. I will just summarize everything.

We need evidence to prove that Order is a logical negation of one another. Therefore, I will talk about IS AND IS-NOT regarding Livyangilma, which speaks of a logical omnipotent where Anos drew and did not draw his sword at the exact same time. This makes logic absurd and creates a Contradiction. We know that if the proposition 'Anos draws his sword' is not true, it makes the proposition 'Anos does not draw his sword' true, because there is no middle value between True & False according to the LEM. This means Anos's state was (p ∧ ¬p) at that moment, which states that the Almighty one can act in such a manner.

"What are you talking about? Arcana just said there's only one way to destroy you. The Sword of Almighty must be drawn and used to cut you thrice."

Ahid stared at the Sword of the Almighty in my hand. It was still in its sheath.

"It can't be. Levyngilma is a divine sword that can never be drawn! You would be dead if it wasn't in its sheath. As long as you are alive, that sword has not been drawn!"

I held Levyngilma at the ready and informed him kindly, "Then try it. Next, I'll cut the connection between you and the god you summoned."

"That... That can't be possible! How arrogant can one be? You think you can lay your hands on my divine power? As if
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"The almighty one created a sword that could not be drawn. If the almighty one drew that sword, it would no longer be a sword that could not be drawn. But if the almighty one couldn't draw that sword, they would not be almighty, so what is the almighty one to do?"

Ahid's expression grew more and more apprehensive as I spoke.

"The answer is this: the almighty one can and cannot draw the sword at the same time. The sword that cannot be drawn by anyone can be drawn without being drawn. It's simple, no? If one is almighty, then they must be able to draw and not draw the sword at the same time."

"What... What nonsense is this? Such a thing isn't possible. It's a contradiction!"

I grinned at Ahid's bewilderment.

"That is what Veneziara for you. Whether it be sheathed or unsheathed, both possi- bilities exist at the same time."

I might draw the sword, and I might not draw the sword. It was only natural
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for both possibilities to exist at the same time.

"And so, I realized both possibilities at once. Contradicting forms of Veneziara can exist concurrently because they are only possibilities."

Ahid looked as though his mind had gone completely blank. "But the moment they were realized, they would have con- tradicted each other. If you hadn't drawn the sword, my body would be unharmed. If you had, you would have vanished. It doesn't make any sense!"

"Indeed, the logic is absurd. That is because this trial of the almighty one's sword was made by someone who isn't almighty. The logic of those who aren't almighty does not apply to the almighty. And, since the almighty one is almighty, they cannot be governed by logic in the first place."

Ahid's face twisted in confusion. "You're wrong."

"Bwa ha ha! Don't you get it, Ahid? Well, that's fine too. To put it simply for you, it's just like how the words of the almighty one cannot be understood by those who are not almighty, just like how I am to you, as you admitted to yourself just now."
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The Almighty one is the Great order, which is the combination of all orders (even though Anos stated that the Almighty one is beyond logic, the truth is it is merely beyond Classical Logic). The Author stated that a Contradiction occurs when we violate order, and Arcana violated the order of Livyangilma, allowing her to use Livyangilma. This achieves the same feat as making Destruction AND Creation by causing the balance of order to collapse. It is a clear Contradiction, not only can they not occur simultaneously, but they cannot coexist, yet if one is missing, the other will not exist either. There is no Destruction without Creation. It is a clear contradiction, but if that is not enough, the Author stated once again that they are opposites.


From all of this, we should be able to say that opposite orders are all logical negations, just like drawing and not drawing a sword. They should possess the same property, and the Almighty one possesses both of those attributes. However, Absurdity 背理 (Hairi) can have the same and opposite properties to the Almighty one. In other words, it can be both (p ∧ ¬p) & Neither ( ¬p ∧ ¬ ¬p) at the same time. Her state should be p ∉ {Binary} ∧ p ∉ {Dialetheia} ∧ p ∉ {Gap}


And the reason why Absurdity is called 背理 (Hairi) is because it still resides within the Attribute of Order / Logic, just as the Author mentioned that the Authority of Absurdity is useless against Venuzdonoa , Who destroys Order/Logic. This is because Absurdity should be a Paradox Logic, not a Non-Logic or 理外 (Rigai). Therefore, the arguments regarding Chaos should not be an issue, because logical negation is still within Logic, whereas Chaos is something Outside logic/order. Thus, it is opposite in the Author's definition. But you know that True and False are logical negations even in Classical logic, we do not need to be beyond Classical Logic to prove logical negation
 
Hirotoswnn1x said:
What I am about to say is not in this OP, but it can support Paraconsistent. I will just summarize everything.
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I support creating a new thread. If nobody objects, I think I'll make the PP3 thread later. Or, if any supporter or knowledge member plans to make it, I can skip it, because what we are arguing about isn't in the OP
 
Well, it seems opinions are divided; Viet seems to agree with PCP 2, Spaceman and I with PCP 3, though I’m not against PCP 2 either. As for Medeus, I’m not sure, since he agrees with Raiki, but since I haven’t read his argument, I don’t know where he stands; I think @Tatsumi504 or @Hirotoswnn1x should start a new thread with organized arguments and scans, since the current thread is a bit much disorganized.
 
Dereck03 said:
Well, it seems opinions are divided; Viet seems to agree with PCP 2, Spaceman and I with PCP 3, though I’m not against PCP 2 either. As for Medeus, I’m not sure, since he agrees with Raiki, but since I haven’t read his argument, I don’t know where he stands; I think @Tatsumi504 or @Hirotoswnn1x should start a new thread with organized arguments and scans, since the current thread is a bit much disorganized.
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Ok close it And I had my friend start a new thread.
 
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