1-A World of Darkness

[Antvasima]

Don't accuse people of lying just because they have different viewpoints from each other.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, the way that DarkLK explained the system to me long ago, there must be a qualitative superiority to all dimensions of space and time to qualify for 1-A.

 

[Udlmaster]

I'm not calling him a liar, I'm saying he's making himself out to be a liar.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm not a liar, I merely disagree with you. What you or your friend says about World of Darkness isn't the gospel truth, and people can go against it.

 

[Udlmaster]

Hmmm...?

I'm not calling you a liar based on you disgreeing with me, not sure why you're strawmanning me.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Semantics.

Anyway, pretty sure that slapping "platonic" on something does not give you anywhere near 1-A by itself. Neither does dimensionless by itself. It's not the first time something "dimensionless" wasn't put at 1-A for the same reasons. So in that regard, I agree with Ultima.

 

[Udlmaster]

That's not the argument, Saikou, do you want me to explain to you what the argument is? Because there's this misconception spread around that this is based on that fact they're called Platonic means I'm saying they're 1-A, to which I'm not.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

The thing is it isn't just the word. We've already agreed that WoD contains Platonism. We're waiting on refutation for the realms that are called Platonic that transcend The Tapestry and Physical Reality which contains Dimensions, Space, Time etc.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

To be fair.

Just like how timelessness isn't the same as transcending linear time, hence why at best it warrants infinite speed and not immeasurable speed, it makes sense why dimensionless isn't enough for 1-A.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We didn't agreed that WoD has Platonism in the sense that it happens in real world philosophy, not at all. It seems that you and Udl agreed, and are passing that mutual isolated agreement as a full-wiki consensus.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Saikou

Platonism being mentioned doesn't immediately indicate 1-A; that's why we made Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation in the first place.

That said, with more description it can be a supporting factor or, if properly explained/realized, proof of 1-A.

 

[Udlmaster]

@Saikou
Platonism being mentioned doesn't immediately indicate 1-A; that's why we made Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation in the first place.

That said, with more description it can be a supporting factor or, if properly explained/realized, proof of 1-A.

Exactly right, Assalt.

We're not basing the 1-A stuff on the fact they're Platonic, we're basing it on statements on the creation of the concept of Dimensions and that because it would be Platonic based on the multiple evidence I've shown above, that it would include all variations of the Concept of Dimensions, and thusly, anything that transcends the realm which holds these concepts, would be 1-A.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Ultima agreed and he's the only person pushing forward meaningfull arguments.

Now we're again going round in circles. Changing what Platonism is in the verse for some reason. All the evidence lines up with it following the real-world philosophy. Can you list the problems with the evidence instead of just saying "It doesn't" I'd appreciate that.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Uld

Sorry, this is a big thread; mind dropping the scan explaining the nature of the concept of dimensions?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We've been going in circles for multiple threads now. One side is adamant on 1-A and is trying to get it accepted by all means anything while the other is refuting every scan, but the arguments brought are always ignored for some reason.

 

[Udlmaster]

@Uld
Sorry, this is a big thread; mind dropping the scan explaining the nature of the concept of dimensions?

Sure, so here's the creation of the concept of Dimension and Space:

https://imgur.com/lzuhFhk

All concepts in WoD are either Platonic or Archetypal, as shown here, all Truths exist was Platonic concepts in the Supernal, and all lies exist was Archetypal concepts in the Abyss, all from the Fallen World (Tapestry/Main Reality):

https://imgur.com/lqigi2c

If you want more scans for the Platonic stuff, I have dozens.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The former isn't talking about dimensions as concepts and isn't at all proof of 1-A beings who transcend dimensions, I'm very sorry.

The other literally just drops the term "platonic concepts" once and doesn't go in any depth whatsoever. I'm very sorry, but neither is anywhere near being what you interpret them as.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Yes the scans are being refuted. The refutations are also being refuted because we don't see them as sufficient refutations. So this will end up continuing until we come to a consensus. No argument on the against side is being ignored.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Numidium is negating negation.

 

[Udlmaster]

The first one proves that Dimensions are a truth of the Tapestry and the second one proves that all truths are Platonic concepts, I'm very sorry, but I've given more scans for them being Platonic in the true sense than the former. I'm very sorry, but neither of your attempts to downplay is anywhere near being what you interpret them as.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The first one simply says that space and dimensions were created along with the universe and the second merely mentions the term "Platonic concepts" without further context or development.

They don't go into any detail nor do they sufficiently prove what you interpret and insist they do. They merely use the "platonic" buzzword to talk about truths in the sense of ideas that existed before the creation of the universe.

And there is no need to call me a downplayer and make a mockery of my post just by rewritting what I said on the other side like some sort of "gotcha!"

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Mentioning the necessity of dimensionality as a creation is a pretty big indicator though.

I do agree that the Platonism drop would only be supporting and cannot hold as evidence, since it isn't explained.

 

[Udlmaster]

Assalt, I have loads of statements explaining what Platonic concepts are in the verse, do you want them?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Yes, I'd like to see their nature explained.

 

[Udlmaster]

Artistatol and Plato talked about:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/517554428090384394/538590611637403650/unknown.png

And More talk about Plato:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/517554428090384394/538590732760514581/unknown.png

Here's a direct statement talking about Plato and the Theory of Forms:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/517554428090384394/538594605008945161/unknown.png

"the Philosopher Plato posited that the items we see around us in the material world can be seen as gross imperfect expressions of their ideal forms, which exist in an ineffible realm of the Abstract."

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/517554428090384394/538025978174373888/unknown.png

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

I don't understand the issue here to be frank.

Normal Reality has concepts:

https://imgur.com/k8y7Swc

Platonism exists in transcendant realms:

https://imgur.com/Obq9o4R

https://i.imgur.com/8feY2vh.png

Realms of Transcendant Archetypes:

https://images-ext-2.discordapp.net...vxL-0D4EiwRedv4/https/i.imgur.com/mPsawtI.png

The High Umbra the realm which transcends realms upon realms:

https://i.imgur.com/C8Lm7uq.png

Platonic truths exist in The Supernal: https://i.imgur.com/5co0CPF.png

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well none of the scans say that Platonism is actually real rather the contrary it seems more like food for thought. The scans themselves seem to contradict eachother, in whether it takes Plato's or Aristotel's theory of forms or even something else entirely. They even outright state that the theories are just that theories and they can't be proven.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

No re-read our posts. The scans demonstrate and even outright state it's real. All it says it that scan is his work was lost and the current "copies" they have of his work aren't authentic.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Like I keep saying, throwing a bunch of cropped quotes with no context or sources that simply reference Plato's philosophy is in no way a decent argument.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No re-read out posts. The scans demonstrate and even outright state it's real. All it says it that scan is his work was lost and the current "copies" they have of his work aren't authentic.

We have read them, we just don't agree with you. I hope that this can be understood and accepted.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Uld's scans are hardly cropped either showcasing that the verse contains Platonism which follows real-life. They show enough context. The information is enough from my view you can reject it if you want but I would like more input rather then you solely voicing rejection. Let's see what others have to say at this point.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I gotta say this clearly goes at length to describe Plato's Forms. I was skeptical even after seeing the Republic mentioned, but even the Allegory of the Cave was used. The forms from those passages are described as the archetypal quintessence of reality and that all aspects of the world are merely shadows of them.

That's very descriptive. That combined with the mention of God not only creating space but also "dimension" (clearly indicating dimensionality) makes me pretty on board with 1-A until other arguments change my mind.

 

[Antvasima]

It is probably best to wait for Ultima Reality to give his analysis. I am too busy and distracted by many different tasks to properly evaluate this.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am going to say there's a lot of context missing and I would never accept to go strictly by the selected presented scans. The verse described realms as having 6 or 8 dimensions and God as only about 4 levels above.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Als odirect references of Plato's Philosophy as a philosophy does not make it a feat for 1-A.

 

[NoodIes67]

What more context do you need, the scans that have been sent have displayed both Platonism and dimensionality existing within the verse and how the angels/gods have created, interact and scale.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

References don't make it 1-A, no, but if it's functionally the same it's 1-A. And this verse uses real allegories in explaining functionality of the philosophy.

Aside from already being 1-A you can't get much more descriptive.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

What would you like? These are simply sections from the book there is no more context other then those sections. I don't see how a few Mages who see the 6th dimension as a chess board/catbox and the others who see the 8th dimension as a chess/catbox really contradicts this. These realms [Heaven, Hell, Supernal] are completely beyond the Tapestry which contains these higher dimensions.

 

[Udlmaster]

Well none of the scans say that Platonism is actually real rather the contrary it seems more like food for thought. The scans themselves seem to contradict eachother, in whether it takes Plato's or Aristotel's theory of forms or even something else entirely. They even outright state that the theories are just that theories and they can't be proven.

Actually, I can prove they're real and flat out factual:

A spell that turns machines into effectively, their Platonic representations:

https://imgur.com/OvDoM9U

The Demiurge, the Avatar of God in Platonism:

https://imgur.com/dCvjvR

And here's a statement calling them Universal Archetypes:

https://imgur.com/HBk9uJr

Numen use Platonic Elements to fight with:

https://imgur.com/rPbIQ4I

Neoplatonism is literally the foundation for (Western) Magic in WoD:

https://imgur.com/8feY2vh

The Supernal is a realm made of Platonic concepts, it is the realm of Plantonic concepts:

https://imgur.com/lqigi2c


Is that enough for you @Ogbunabali

 

[Ultima_Reality]

That's very descriptive. That combined with the mention of God not only creating space but also "dimension" (clearly indicating dimensionality) makes me pretty on board with 1-A until other arguments change my mind.

The Angels are said to have created "Dimension" in a strictly physical sense though, not as concepts or anything of the sort. There are several scans blatantly affirming this, and it is only further supported the fact that Platonic Forms exist in the verse, so Space and dimension must have been created in a physical sense, while their Forms already existed in the Supernal Realm.

There is also the fact that the setting of WoD so far only specified the existence of 8 Dimensions as far as I know, so putting the Angels and God at 1-A for creating them doesn't seem like the best choice.