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1-A World of Darkness

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Yep. Only 8 dimensions are confirmed to exist, so creating dimensions ISN'T a 1-A feat in the slightest. And they didn't create dimensions as concepts much less the concept of dimensionality. I think you are being deceived here, Assaltwaffle. This is why Ultima and I talk about context so much because it's very easy to get misinterpretations of the ideas being presented.
 
Also the fact that we have people using Platonic Elements to fight and cast spells runs in diametric opposition to the boasts that Platonic Concepts in WoD = Platonic Concepts in Real World Platonism.

This has people using "Platonic Fire" to melt metal and forge swords for godsake. It's blatantly not a real immutable unchanging platonic solid.
 
God and The Angels did create the concepts we have been over this. Before Creation there was God and The Void. I suppose the concepts just popped out of nowhere. No. They were created by The Angels. Creating the Tapestry doesn't contradict this at all. There is no deception here. Someone who reads the scans and comes to their conclusion is not being decieved.
 
>The Angels are said to have created "Dimension" in a strictly physical sense though, not as concepts or anything of the sort. There are several scans blatantly affirming this, and it is only further supported the fact that Platonic Forms exist in the verse, so Space and dimension must have been created in a physical sense, while their Forms already existed in the Supernal Realm.

I've already gone over this, Ultima, the fact that they created Dimensions before even creating the Physical "universe" proves it's conceptual existence and not physical, what so ever.

In fact, they created the Concept of Matter first, and then created Space and Dimension, to which it states after:

"and they called it space - the boundary of existence, a zone in which the very concept of existence could finally be expressed." https://imgur.com/49MPvGR

So, yes, this is on a conceptual level.

>There is also the fact that the setting of WoD so far only specified the existence of 8 Dimensions, so putting the Angels and God at 1-A for creating them doesn't seem like the best choice.

Countered by the Outerversal page stating that a verse can only have 14 dimensions and with these statements, they can be 1-A.
 
Also this is to be considered heavily. Platonism is used a lot because Magic comes from the Supernal Realm where God exists, which exists beyond the 8 dimensions of the multiverse.

When they talk about Platonic Forms they're using a metaphor, simply saying that the "The Supernal Realm is like Plato's Realm of Ideas". It's not literally the Ream of Ideas as envisioned by Plato. The Platonic Forms from the Supernal Realm are not equivalent to Plato. See how people can use Platonic Fire in spells. It isn't 1-A.
 
Also, this sca isn't saying that they created the Concept of Matter or Existence, not in the slightest. It is talking in how creating the space of the universe, the idea of existence could finally be expressed.

It then immediately starts talking about how God and the Angels created matter in an explicitly literal, physical sense. It talks about hydrogen atoms and molecules, for God's sake. It is not the creation of the concept of matter. It is the creation of physical matter.
 
I've already gone over this, Ultima, the fact that they created Dimensions before even creating the Physical "universe" proves it's conceptual.

They didn't, the Scans describe the Artificers creating the Universe by establishing Dimensional Boundaries into an empty void, which then became physical space. It is obviously referring to Dimensions as physical constrants and not Concepts, the fact Platonic Forms exist in the Verse only corroborates to this notion, as a Concept under a Platonist Cosmology has to be transcendent over reality, not a part of it as you are implying.
 
Are you guys going to take a vote or something when you reach a comment benchmark?
 
>It then immediately starts talking about how God and the Angels created matter in an explicitly literal, physical sense. It talks about hydrogen atoms and molecules, for God's sake. It is not the creation of the concept of matter. It is the creation of physical matter.

No, sorry again, Matthew, it's absolutely not, here you go;

https://i.imgur.com/7vGnRoW.jpg

"The notion of matter, the very idea of substance and solidity."
 
This is just poetic language and in no way literal. Look at the rest of the paragraphs. They literally talk about matter, substance, atoms, molecules, stone, bringing form to the formlessness.

Hell, the very reason the Artificers are the Elohim most involved with creation is because they are the Elohim most tied with the material and the concrete, while the other angels are spiritual and ethereal. Creation is inherently material, with even the angels that helped God make creation being more material than the others.
 
Ultima Reality said:
I've already gone over this, Ultima, the fact that they created Dimensions before even creating the Physical "universe" proves it's conceptual.
They didn't, the Scans describe the Artificers creating the Universe by establishing Dimensional Boundaries into an empty void, which then became physical space. It is obviously referring to Dimensions as physical constrants and not Concepts, the fact Platonic Forms exist in the Verse only corroborates to this notion, as a Concept under a Platonist Cosmology has to be transcendent over reality, not a part of it as you are implying.
Click to expand...
In this screenshot, it directly states that first they created the concept of substance, then God told them to go create the Universe, then they created Space and Dimension then created the Physical Universe.
 
It states multiple times throughout each text that the space in which they formed these ideas was a void of nothing and they first created the very idea from nothing of matter before actually constructing it. No idea how you came to the conclusion this is poetic language either.
 
No, my dude. That scan is literally talking about the Big Bang.

>Angels create an infinitely dense ball of matter and potential

>They then create the physical space of the universe in the void, giving it breath and width and boundary.

>They then insert the infinitely dense ball of matter into the physical space, and upon doing so the ball explodes, creating the universe

How does this not raise any eyebrows?. Not only was creation a slow process that took many steps, but it was inherently physical. It was through a big bang that only brought matter into the empty space.
 
NoodIes67 said:
It states multiple times throughout each text that the space in which they formed these ideas was a void of nothing and they first created the very idea from nothing of matter before actually constructing it. No idea how you came to the conclusion this is poetic language either.
Click to expand...
The void is just an empty void without space, which they fill with physical space which is in turn filled with physical matter. Nothing more, nothing less. The ideas already existed, they just expressed them through the physical creation. It's very, very simple.
 
Frankly this doesn't make any sense. Uld's scan are being disregarded and being called "poetic" and "flowerey language" when they are explictly stated to be on a conceptual level. It wasn't just material.

Creation only being physically created doesn't make sense. There was only Void and God before Creation nothing else, no concepts, no realms. So it's weird to say the concepts weren't created.

Let me steelman the opposition. Even if Creation was only physically created it wouldn't contradict any of the Platonism. The higher realms have already got enough evidence to be 1-A in my opinion. I just want more input from people.
 
So let's surmise some facts here:

  • The Multiverse in World of Darkness only has 8 dimensions. No references are ever made to there being more.
  • The Supernal Realm where God exists is only four layers of reality above, and there is no proof that these layers are dimensional layers of qualitative difference between each other. We just assume so to be nice.
  • Platonism and Neoplatonism are merely used as metaphors to explain the Supernal Realm as the source of creation and magic. They are not identical in concept much less literally the same thing.
  • Platonic Solids in World of Darkness are not identical to those in real world philosophy, as mages can use "Platonic Fire" to melt metal and forge swords and cauldrons. It is literally just a buzzword to explain how magic works.
  • In fact, saying that magic can be 1-A because it comes from the Supernal Realm is like saying every Psyker in 40K is 1-A because of the Warp, a very real 1-A plane of existence from which psychic power comes from.
  • The Creation of the Multiverse was inherently physical and material, with God and their angels making the physical space for the multiverse, and then filling it with matter in the form of atoms and molecules. Nothing about concepts or ideas is every brought up in any meaningful way.
  • In fact, the description of creation fits perfectly with the idea of the Big Bang, and the angels who most contributed to creation were the most material out of all the angels, further solidifying the notion that creation was material.
Given all of the factually unarguable things above, I conclude that World of Darkness cannot be made 1-A because of "lol Platonism!" quotes. And never could to begin with.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
  • Platonism and Neoplatonism are merely used as metaphors to explain the Supernal Realm as the source of creation and magic. They are not identical in concept much less literally the same thing.
  • Platonic Solids in World of Darkness are not identical to those in real world philosophy, as mages can use "Platonic Fire" to melt metal and forge swords and cauldrons. It is literally just a buzzword to explain how magic works.
Click to expand...
These are very important points since even the scans above from the tome imply that this is the case.
 
Irrelevant, Emperor.

All concepts already existed in the Supernal Realm in which God exists. The ideas and concepts were always there, just never expressed in a physical sense as all but the Supernal Realm was void. IT was only by filling the void with physical space, and in turn said space with physical matter that these ideas finally came to be and were expressed in existence.

It's not that the very concepts didn't exist before, it's that they didn't exist in the physical world.
 
I dunno, this seems like a very clear example of Platonic Concepts

> Willworkers have discovered that certain apparently ordinary objects contain concentrated resonances embodying these ideal concepts. Most radios are just radios, but one in a million is a Platonic exemplar, a radio that reverberates with mystic vibrations of radio-ness. Likewise for any other inanimate object you can name, from eminently useful items such as guns, cars and computers to quotidian Artifacts such as rocks, leaves and paper clips.
 
Qaw. In the World of Darkness Tabletop RPGs you can literally make a Platonic Car and drive it around. There are rules for it. Platonic Forms in WoD are not the same as in real life philsophy.
 
I wasn't trying to support either side, just that based on the limited stuff I've seen there's at least a quasi-Platonic thing going on. I would have to look more into it to give my view on if 1-A is warrented. I mostly came here to see if anyone needed scans or something.
 
If you notice, I actually don't argue with Matthew, I argue with everyone else, but I have to debunk these "facts" for the flat out lies they are:

>The Multiverse in World of Darkness only has 8 dimensions. No references are ever made to there being more.

Doesn't need more, this is a pointless claim.

>The Supernal Realm where God exists is only four layers of reality above, and there is no proof that these layers are dimensional layers of qualitative difference between each other. We just assume so to be nice.

Lies, absolutely false. God does not exist in the Supernal realm, in fact, the Supernal realm is the near BOTTOM of the cosmology, not the top, as it states it's closer to the Tapestry.

I have no idea where you got the idea God exists in the Supernal, God exists beyond the Tellurian, which contains things above the Supernal realms.

>Platonism and Neoplatonism are merely used as metaphors to explain the Supernal Realm as the source of creation and magic. They are not identical in concept much less literally the same thing.

Lies, nothing about the scans shown have even remotely shown "metaphors", in fact, I've given scans directly proving they're existence and actively denying this point's every existence.

The Metaphor is unfounded and is a terrible attempt to downplay, I've given examples where, by word of God they exist, that Magic also uses Platonic examples and The Supernal Realm is not the Source of Creation what so ever, this is unfounded and is on burden of proof.

>Platonic Solids in World of Darkness are not identical to those in real world philosophy, as mages can use "Platonic Fire" to melt metal and forge swords and cauldrons. It is literally just a buzzword to explain how magic works.

Another lie Matthew cannot back up, because you know what Mage's using Platonic concepts is...

Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation. Also, prove it's a buzzword, give me scans of it being a metaphor, no? Didn't think so.

>In fact, saying that magic can be 1-A because it comes from the Supernal Realm is like saying every Psyker in 40K is 1-A because of the Warp, a very real 1-A plane of existence from which psychic power comes from.

Wrong verse, keep focused, we're not talking about Warhammer.

>The Creation of the Multiverse was inherently physical and material, with God and their angels making the physical space for the multiverse, and then filling it with matter in the form of atoms and molecules. Nothing about concepts or ideas is every brought up in any meaningful way

Wrong again, debunked by the others multiple times.

>In fact, the description of creation fits perfectly with the idea of the Big Bang, and the angels who most contributed to creation were the most material out of all the angels, further solidifying the notion that creation was material.

What? Angels aren't made out of Material, they didn't sacrifice themselves to make the concept of existence? The Angels are fragments of God given will, they're not material, I know where you got this from and Ultima should know I debunked him on that point.

In all, don't lie, Matthew.
 
I am not lying in any way, shape or form. First it is very displeasing to see you not only ignore me, but try to frame as a a liar, Udl.

In regards to Platonism, yes, it is a metaphor, one of the scans which explains the relationship between Neoplatonism and Magic outright states it, simply saying that magic and the supernal realm are compared to Plato's theory of forms, but not it literally.

Using Platonic Fire isn't Concept Manipulation, that is incorrect. The fact of the matter is that it puts a severe dent in the notion that it is identical to real world philosophy. We see that it's not when these platonic forms can be changed so easily.

Finally, I never said angels are made of matter. I said that the Artificers are the most material of angels because this is literally stated in the scans. The Artificers are the angels most closely tied with material affairs and this is why they helped with creation.

Creation is unarguably material, there is no point in stretching this meaningless discussion any further.
 
I still think that Ultima and Matthew seem to make sense.

Also, Udlmaster, don't accuse them of lying just because they disagree with you.
 
If this seems to be going in circles just do a vote once the thread reaches 250 comments or something. Like with the recent Kratos CRT
 
Antvasima said:
I still think that Ultima and Matthew seem to make sense.
Also, Udlmaster, don't accuse them of lying just because they disagree with you.
Click to expand...
I'm not saying that they're lying because they disagree with me. I'm saying they're lying because they know the facts, yet they go against the facts and spout incorrect information, that is the definition of a lie:

"to express what is false; convey a false impression."
 
Exactly, voting is not the way to solve revisions specially when people can just spam friends and ask them to support them.
 
In cases like this we cannot go by popular vote that can easily be inflated with casual visitors. Much of the point of having a staff is to have them evaluate different topics.
 
Sure get more staff input, its just at the moment it seems neither side is willing to budge on what they think. So there needs to be some third party overview.
 
@Udlmaster

They seem to have a different interpretation of subjective statements, as opposed to objective facts. That is not the same as lying.
 
Matt and I are currently debating over Discord. It's much faster that way.

Although I do agree voting isn't the way to go.
 
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