A vsbattling question: Tier and hax scaling.

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Here' a quick thought experiement.

You have Character Alpha, Character Beta, and Character Gamma. Character Alpha and Character Beta exist in Series 1. Character Gamma exists in Series 2. Series 1 and Series 2 are completely different series and aren't related to each other in any way.

In Series 1, Character Alpha uses ability X on Character beta and ability X worked on Character Beta. In series 2, Character Gamma has resisted an ability that is the same or very similar to ability X.

Some important information:

1. Character Beta has not previously shown resistence to to Ability X before.

2.Character Beta is a higher tier than Character Gamma


Here in vsbattle, We have a battle of Character Alpha vs. Character Gamma. While Gamma has shown resistence to said ability, Character Alpha successfully used it on a character of a higher tier. Does Character Alpha's ability X work on Character Gamma?

 

[Endless_Astrograph_Sorcerer]

I'd think it'd be tough to give a uniform answer to this question. With something like existence erasure, it's possible whether you consider it to be tied to AP in some way or not because some forms of existence erasure are far far superior to others and regen is sometimes more relevant than a character's resistance to it. So with something like that, it may or may not work depending on the specifics.

With hax that are much more standardized in scale and effects, like idk ones that cause destabilization on an atomic level in any human where the target is a human, I don't think AP should >usually< be relevant in terms of efficacy of the resistance.

In verses where sufficient AP almost always negates hax and resistances can be overcome with raw AP and speed alone *cough* Dragon Ball *cough*, it gets more dicey because if you allow the implied rules of DB and how it works, the characters would shoot up so much higher in terms of how they fare against characters in their tier that it'd just seem like obnoxious wank. Personally, I think this should be how it works in any DB vsbattle that takes place in the DB verse and not for any outside of it but that's a whoooole other story.

Finding a consistent system for this is something that would fall largely on the staff though because, from what I can tell, it'd fundamentally change how hax and resistances to them are classified. I'd def like it it this existed though and this is a very interesting topic IMO

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

@outerversalraditz

thanks for the response. And I agree, for inverse battles, if this is a point of a series that being stronger means abilities from weaker opponents won't work on you then, yes, I beleive that can fly. But for cross series battles i say no.


bumping this for other responses.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

bump

 

[Bluetrekking]

Outerversal Raditz is correct until you get to higher dimensionality. If a 4-D being can use hax that can affect a 5-D or 6-D being, their hax are going to be more potent.

So if a 2-C can mindhax a Low 1-C, their mind hax is quite potent. Being higher dimensional gives you resistance to any hax by beings on a lower dimension unless you have feats of affecting a higher dimensional being.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Most forms of hax bypass tiers, but there are a few exceptions to the rule.

One example would be power nullification/absorption. Even if a character has powernull or power absorption, it's an NLF to say that they would be capable of powernulling/powerstealing something that's an entire tier more powerful than them, unless they have explicit feats of doing so. (Ex: John Constantine, Doctor Doom)

Another example is transmutation/matter manipulation, but that one's trickier and needs more explaining. A normal-sized three-dimensional character who has no resistance to those is helpless to stop themselves from getting transmuted no matter what tier they're in. But a character with sufficient Large Size (Ex: The Human-Reaper, 5-A SCP-682, Mogo the Living Planet) would be immutable to anyone who doesn't have feats of transmuting/manipulating matter on such a scale.

Again though, the above two examples are exceptions, not the rule. It's a case-by-case kind of thing, but more often than not, higher tiers =/= resistance to hax from lower tiers. Not in the slightest.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Most forms of hax bypass tiers, but there are a few exceptions to the rule.
One example would be power nullification/absorption. Even if a character has powernull or power absorption, it's an NLF to say that they would be capable of powernulling/powerstealing something that's an entire tier more powerful than them, unless they have explicit feats of doing so. (Ex: John Constantine, Doctor Doom)

Another example is transmutation/matter manipulation, but that one's trickier and needs more explaining. A normal-sized three-dimensional character who has no resistance to those is helpless to stop themselves from getting transmuted no matter what tier they're in. But a character with sufficient Large Size (Ex: The Human-Reaper, 5-A SCP 682, Mogo the Living Planet) would be immutable to anyone who doesn't have feats of transmuting/manipulating matter on such a scale.

Again though, the above two examples are exceptions, not the rule. It's a case-by-case kind of thing, but more often than not, higher tiers =/= resistance to hax from lower tiers. Not in the slightest.

A good addition. I agree. I would say that abilties that deal with power should scale to how much power a person has unless shown otherwise. And that size is a type of scaling that must be taken into consideration when seeing if a hax can work.

Outerversal Raditz is correct until you get to higher dimensionality. If a 4-D being can use hax that can affect a 5-D or 6-D being, their hax are going to be more potent.
So if a 2-C can mindhax a Low 1-C, their mind hax is quite potent. Being higher dimensional gives you resistance to any hax by beings on a lower dimension unless you have feats of affecting a higher dimensional being.

So a higher dimension character gets resistence/immunity to hax abilities even if "in-story" they haven't shown resistence to those abilities before?

And if we were to put that 2-C (A) against another 2-C, (B). A's hax would work automatically due to affecting a low 1-C, even if that B has more feats of resisting or being immune to said hax than that Low 1-C?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Bump

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

"And if we were to put that 2-C (A) against another 2-C, (B). A's hax would work automatically due to affecting a low 1-C, even if that B has more feats of resisting or being immune to said hax than that Low 1-C? "

Yes. When it comes to this, resistances do not matter as much as say dimensionality. If someone has Time Stopped a Low 1-C Immeasurable as a 2-C, then you better believe a 2-C Immeasurable will be stopped as well. Resistance be damned.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

"Resistances do not matter as much as say dimensionally"

Doesn't that seem a bit fabricated. Our dimensional tiers are third party definition we applu to characters. Resistances are something shown or not shown in story.

With such a mindset, we'd be giving characters abilities, fetas, and resistances they've never shown before in story and rendering actual feats of characters completely null and void.

 

[Schnee_One]

An entire dimension is infinitely better then 99% of resistances, let alone a Low 1C vs a 2C.

You could be straight up immune to Time Manipulation on that level and affecting a 2A would be enough.

 

[Kaltias]

The reason why a dimension higher grants resistance is because the other one has 0 business affecting you until shown. Because a higher dimensional being is infinitely bigger and more complex.

Can a drawing of Darth Sidious mind hax you in real life? That's a good approximation of what happens with a lower dimensional trying to affect a higher dimensional

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

"With such a mindset, we'd be giving characters abilities, fetas, and resistances they've never shown before in story and rendering actual feats of characters completely null and void."

Ability: Can Time Stop Immeasurables, including 6-Dimensional beings.

Note: Beings who are Immeasurable are naturally Immune to Time Based Powers.

Feat: Bypassing the this immunity. Time Stopping an Immeasurable 6-Dimensional Being > Time Stopping an Immeasurable 4-Dimensional Being. The gap is literally infinity. This is a feat shown in story. Not something made up.

Nulled Feats: Never resisted something of that level, ergo the resistance means nothing as it has been bypassed.

 

[Schnee_One]

I see nothing wrong with said mindset

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Let's not bring in real life because mind hax doesn't exist in real life and isn't a good example. And ould probably get really silly if we were to constantly compare fiction to real life.

And I understand a hogher dimensional character having infinite more raw power and Ap, but resistances? How can a dimensional being have infinitely more resistance? Like can a 11-A with conceptual manipulation can't use their ability on a 2-B because we assume the 2-B to have infinite resistance to conceptual manipulation to an 11-C even if that 2-B has never shown an resistence to conceptual manipulation in their story?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Conceptual Manipulation seems like that gray area honestly. But in general...yes.

 

[Schnee_One]

The dimensional level is fundamentally the exact same.

Because unless shown, the person can't affect someone infinitely above them.

Otherwise Madoka Kaname would lose to White Face because of power null.

 

[Kaltias]

No, it's more like, if you erase a 2-D plane from existence, this does absolutely nothing to me, because you erased an infinitesimal portion of me.

I wouldn't die if I lost a hair, and that's already infinitely worse than being subject to 2-D EE

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Okay. Here's a quick other question:

If a character thats tier 5 showd the ability to mind **** a planet and then that same character became low 2-c later on, should their mind hax become a level of low 2-C or does it remain at tier 5?

 

[Kaltias]

It remains 3-D planetary mind hax unless it's specified that it was upscaled to their level.

Reason why Madoka Kaname can't soul hax 2-As for example

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Okay. I'm lost now. A character that is dimensionally higher automatically gets resistances even if they haven't shown them before when going against a lesser d character but a characters ability can't scale to their current level if they gain a dimensional tier? What's the difference between the two?

 

[Kaltias]

Those are two different issues.

A higher dimensional character is immune to hax that works on a lower dimensional level because of what I explained above.

The hax isn't assumed to work on your level without proof simply because, well, you lack proof that it does.

 

[Mr._Common_Sense]

Wasn't an issue similar to this already covered months ago? I believe is already been accepted by a majority of staff members plus Antvasima that if said character has ridiculously hax can hurt said character of a higher tier that hasn't shown resistance to said ridiculously hax. However, every battle with will be taken case by case. Hax Life