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About souls in DMC

Sharkass

Sharkass

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The Soul It continues to hide mysteries that humans and demons don't understand, mysteries but every human has such. A basic nine-dimensional form, generally speaking, it originates from and returns to a higher dimension beyond the Eightfold Path.

It says the soul has many mysteries but every "human" has it. Doesn't this mean that humans also have this 9D soul just like demons?
In that case any random human from dmc verse should have a 9D soul.

 
yes.... is there an issue with that? or are you asking if humans have 9D souls or not?
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Everyone has 9D soul, but not everyone is 1C. You should read Higher Dimensional Existence page of our wiki. Everything will become clear.
Click to expand...
but destroying a building on a 9D scale is > than destroying universes or multiverses on a 3D or 4D scale right?
 
Sharkass said:
in that case lady should also be 1c right?
Click to expand...
it's just higher dimensional existence for her soul, it doesn't have anything to do with her stats.
the god tiers are currently 1C because the demon world scales to the soul's higher dimensionality as well, not because the characters have 9D souls
 
Random-Helper323 said:
It doesn't work that way, as the building is still only 3D. It's only Lady's soul, not her body, that is higher dimensional. It means nothing for her physicals.
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Ibrahem said:
it's just higher dimensional existence for her soul, it doesn't have anything to do with her stats.
the god tiers are currently 1C because the demon world scales to the soul's higher dimensionality as well, not because the characters have 9D souls
Click to expand...
i see. makes sense
 
Ibrahem said:
it's just higher dimensional existence for her soul, it doesn't have anything to do with her stats.
the god tiers are currently 1C because the demon world scales to the soul's higher dimensionality as well, not because the characters have 9D souls
Click to expand...
u r right. but I believe her durability should be possibly 1c at least due to the soul structure if not ap and other things
 
Sharkass said:
u r right. but I believe her durability should be possibly 1c at least due to the soul structure if not ap and other things
Click to expand...
Not her physical durability. It serves as protection for her soul against anything that can't interact with a 9D soul, but her body is still only 3D and only has 3D strength and abilities.
 
Random-Helper323 said:
Not her physical durability. It serves as protection for her soul against anything that can't interact with a 9D soul, but her body is still only 3D and only has 3D strength and abilities.
Click to expand...
but soul durability also does fall under the durability section. A 4D, 5D multiversal charecter cannot destroy her soul due to it being higher dimension so it is an durability asset isnt it?
 
Sharkass said:
u r right. but I believe her durability should be possibly 1c at least due to the soul structure if not ap and other things
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you misunderstand.
this wiki separates higher dimensional existence from stats, a being can be 9D with building level durability.
it's not just lady's physical body that doesn't scale but also her soul. unless she shows some feats that is
 
Sharkass said:
but soul durability also does fall under the durability section. A 4D, 5D multiversal charecter cannot destroy her soul due to it being higher dimension so it is an durability asset isnt it?
Click to expand...
A higher dimensional object isn't automatically tiered at a higher tier. As Ibrahem said. What I meant earlier wasn't durability exactly. As her soul is 9D, it should mean that soul manipulation that doesn't have the ability to reach 9D won't reach her soul. Unfortunately pretty much every demon in DMC can do that, so she's got nothing in-verse. Also I don't think too many characters with soul manipulation are in Lady's tier, so that's not much use.
 
Maybe a bad time to bring this up but shouldn't souls only be 9D in their OG form aka not when inside a human or demon's body, considering "it originates from and returns to a higher dimension"?

If not, Lady and others should have HDE on their profiles.
 
Greenshifter said:
Maybe a bad time to bring this up but shouldn't souls only be 9D in their OG form aka not when inside a human or demon's body, considering "it originates from and returns to a higher dimension"?

If not, Lady and others should have HDE on their profiles.
Click to expand...
There is no OG form, the soul is the same wherever it is. It's directly called a 9 dimensional item, not a 9D shit when it returns to a higher dimension.

The difference is that the soul of humans is just the soul with the memories, mind and information while demons have their name as a part of the soul
 
Tony_di_bugalu said:
There is no OG form, the soul is the same wherever it is. It's directly called a 9 dimensional item, not a 9D shit when it returns to a higher dimension.

The difference is that the soul of humans is just the soul with the memories, mind and information while demons have their name as a part of the soul
Click to expand...
I mean it being always 9D would contradict it returning to a higher dimension, since it would have never left.
 
There is no contradiction, read the scan.

A basic nine-dimensional form, generally speaking, it originates from and returns to a higher dimension beyond the Eightfold Path.

It doesn't say the soul stops being a 9 dimensional shit just because it leaves the higher dimension from where it was farted from nor does it say it becomes a 9 dimensional item when it returns. The soul is 9D, that doesn't change where it is.
 
Pretty much what everyone's said, she's got resists but I can't see her being anywhere close to tier 1 AP wise. On the topic of Lady I might have a match idea now for her at least assuming her 9-A thing is still legit.
 
Tony_di_bugalu said:
There is no contradiction, read the scan.

A basic nine-dimensional form, generally speaking, it originates from and returns to a higher dimension beyond the Eightfold Path.

It doesn't say the soul stops being a 9 dimensional shit just because it leaves the higher dimension from where it was farted from nor does it say it becomes a 9 dimensional item when it returns. The soul is 9D, that doesn't change where it is.
Click to expand...
Considering a Ripper can cover every inch of the Underworld in less than a day, it seems like the entire demon world could be considered its "territory". As such a higher dimension from the perspective of a Ripper would be beyond the Demon World, which contradicts the demon world being the entire cosmology of the verse essentially (minus the human world of course). Also any demon that gets spawned in just the right place will have its soul still within this higher dimension under your interpretation (and it gets worse if the entire 9th dimension counts as the higher dimension in question), which contradicts the statement, granted the statement did say "generally speaking", but thought I'd mention it anyways. The only fix I found until now is what I said earlier about the soul lowering its dimensionality.

Edit: Also would there be some 9D-sized demons under your interpretation (aside from Mundus)?
 
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Considering a Ripper can cover every inch of the Underworld in less than a day, it seems like the entire demon world could be considered its "territory". As such a higher dimension from the perspective of a Ripper would be beyond the Demon World, which contradicts the demon world being the entire cosmology of the verse essentially (minus the human world of course).
Click to expand...

How does that contradict anything at all? Moreover how does it mean the soul stops being 9D or becomes 9D?

Also any demon that gets spawned in just the right place will have its soul still within this higher dimension under your interpretation (and it gets worse if the entire 9th dimension counts as the higher dimension in question), which contradicts the statement, granted the statement did say "generally speaking", but thought I'd mention it anyways. The only fix I found until now is what I said earlier about the soul lowering its dimensionality.
Click to expand...

It doesn't contradict anything, souls are born in this higher dimension and return to it upon "death". Again, there is no indication that the soul is 9D because it is in the higher dimension or that it stops being 9D if it leaves it, it just is 9D. Even humans have it.

The problem here is that you think the soul stops being a 9 dimensional item because "reasons".

Edit: Also would there be some 9D-sized demons under your interpretation (aside from Mundus)?
Click to expand...

Watchu mean? Everyone including humans have a 9D sized ass soul, the difference being that demons have more shit with the souls and can exist as one should the need arise. The thing is that this is ONLY for the soul, not the body.
 
Tony_di_bugalu said:
How does that contradict anything at all? Moreover how does it mean the soul stops being 9D or becomes 9D?
Click to expand...
Do you agree that a Ripper would define a higher dimension as being beyond the demon world?
Tony_di_bugalu said:
It doesn't contradict anything, souls are born in this higher dimension and return to it upon "death".
Click to expand...
You interpret "comes from" as "is born in", which is fine I suppose. I interpret "comes from and returns to" as "can be anywhere but in this higher dimension while not "dead" (at least not in its original state)".
Tony_di_bugalu said:
Watchu mean? Everyone including humans have a 9D sized ass soul, the difference being that demons have more shit with the souls and can exist as one should the need arise.
Click to expand...
What are the exact mechanics of how this happens? Are there regular demons which spawn as souls in the human and demon world?
 
Also I could pretty easily assert that “returns to a higher dimension” inherently implies that the soul lowers its dimensionality since you are treating it like a realm within the 9th dimension rather than the 9th dimension itself. I’m open to the former possibility though.
 
Greenshifter said:
Do you agree that a Ripper would define a higher dimension as being beyond the demon world?
Click to expand...
How a ripper would define a higher dimension is totally irrelevant for all intents and purposes.

Greenshifter said:
You interpret "comes from" as "is born in", which is fine I suppose. I interpret "comes from and returns to" as "can be anywhere but in this higher dimension while not "dead" (at least not in its original state)".
Click to expand...
The problem is that there are no interpretations here, it is as direct as you can get "A basic nine-dimensional form, generally speaking, it originates from and returns to a higher dimension beyond the Eightfold Path."

The soul is born and gets back there when the whole samsara cycle that the eighfold path references is completed. It doesn't need to be inside that dimension to be as it is.

Greenshifter said:
What are the exact mechanics of how this happens? Are there regular demons which spawn as souls in the human and demon world?
Click to expand...
Demons have names, said names are the concept of their very own existence. This concept is the basic principle that predates the existence of the demon world. These names are only part of the soul.

This is something human souls don't have.
Greenshifter said:
Also I could pretty easily assert that “returns to a higher dimension” inherently implies that the soul lowers its dimensionality since you are treating it like a realm within the 9th dimension rather than the 9th dimension itself. I’m open to the former possibility though.
Click to expand...
You can't, you literally can't when the description straight up says the soul is a basic nine dimensional form that everyone has, including humans. Saying it changes for some unknown reason is not gonna fly.
 
Tony_di_bugalu said:
How a ripper would define a higher dimension is totally irrelevant for all intents and purposes.
Click to expand...
Not really, it's supposed to be a higher dimension compared to all things with souls.
Tony_di_bugalu said:
The problem is that there are no interpretations here
Click to expand...
There are always interpretations
Tony_di_bugalu said:
it is as direct as you can get "A basic nine-dimensional form, generally speaking, it originates from and returns to a higher dimension beyond the Eightfold Path."
Click to expand...
I mean I agree that the soul is 9D when it is born. Also my bad in writing "comes from", but that doesn't really change my point.
Tony_di_bugalu said:
The soul is born and gets back there when the whole samsara cycle that the eighfold path references is completed. It doesn't need to be inside that dimension to be as it is.
Click to expand...
Alright so lemme make it clear to you what I mean, there are 2 scenarios:
1) There is a specific realm in the 9th dimension where the souls are born and where they return to upon "death", this means that some demons' souls never leave this realm during their lifespan if they spawn in just the right place and other demons' souls constantly enter and leave this realm (while still in their original state) while they're hunting or whatever. Which contradicts the statement.
2) The entire 9th dimension is where the souls are born and where they return to upon "death", this has more backing since I presume there are infinite demons and there would thus need to be infinite space to hold all those souls (and the scan never talks about a realm in the 9th dimension either). This means that every demon or human who exists contradicts the statement under your interpretation, since their souls never leave the higher dimension.

Then from this I conclude that the only way to make the statement work is to deduce that souls lower their dimensionality, it being stated that all humans and demons have a soul is fine and all, but later context tells us that the soul lowers its dimensionality.
Tony_di_bugalu said:
Demons have names, said names are the concept of their very own existence. This concept is the basic principle that predates the existence of the demon world. These names are only part of the soul.

This is something human souls don't have.
Click to expand...
Not what I meant, I asked how demons spawning as souls works, is it the same as regular demon spawning?
Tony_di_bugalu said:
You can't, you literally can't when the description straight up says the soul is a basic nine dimensional form that everyone has, including humans. Saying it changes for some unknown reason is not gonna fly.
Click to expand...
"Mxyzptlk is a fundamental fifth-dimensional being, he originates from and returns to a higher dimension beyond time." Under your interpretation Mxy would always be 5D, even when on earth, you got my point?
 
The statement doesn't only refer to demon souls though; it also refers to human souls. And it so happens many of the lesser demons in the demon world are human souls that warped into those monsters on contact with the demon world's atmosphere, and it is specifically stated that many human souls are sent to the demon world and either get devoured or become such demons. Human souls, going to the demon world upon their death. The human world even originated as part of the demon world, adding credence to those souls coming from the demon world. So those human souls originate from, and return to, the demon world, which fits the statement.

That's coming from someone who'd be interested to see a higher dimension above the demon world to bring in new threatening villains. The issue is that no such higher dimension above the demon world is even implied to exist as of yet. The demon world is the unending darkness outside the single ray of light that is the human world, as described in the manga, and the world was born from that darkness.

For demons, Mundus was stated to have been born in the demon world, and demons are repeatedly referred to as evil spirits and souls, because their true form isn't their body. Their true form is an evil spirit, the soul and concept embodied in their name. So the statement already includes human souls, and far more humans will die and pass on somewhere than demons. Demons don't age and live indefinitely, and what's more when they're killed by another demon stronger than themself (such as Dante, Nero, Vergil, Trish, Lucia and Sparda), that soul and concept are destroyed entirely, or just absorbed and subjugated, meaning it can't return anywhere. The few demons who are killed in different circumstances from those are almost all killed in the human world since humans can't enter the demon world.

So in short, as most souls that die are human and the demons who die are almost never allowed to return anywhere, it fits to say that "generally speaking" the souls that die and can return to their higher dimension aren't in the demon world when they die. This fits the statement.

To add to that, V who is one of the only humans who can kill demons and actually has studied the matter, frequently says things like "return to the underworld" when he kills a demon.
 
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Your interpretation is definitely food for thought, however I think it doesn't work because the majority of a human's soul is still within the demon world since the human world is too small to contain it.

Edit: Now that I think about it, since the souls aren't accepted as being "true 1-C things" would that imply their higher-D size is insignificant and thus make my point irrelevant since they wouldn't be in the higher dimension for a significant amount while alive?
 
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Assuming an abstract concept and soul actually require space at all seems a bit questionable. If most of the human's soul is in the demon world then it doesn't make sense that the soul transmutes into a demon or a tree or stone when it enters.

Honestly, I think a higher dimension than the demon world would be pretty much what the series needs to have threatening villains at this point. If the higher beings from there took interest in Dante, Nero and Vergil for their power reaching beyond their dimension, that could allow for new villains with all new abilities for Dante, Vergil and Nero to overcome. As a story element it sounds interesting. But no such higher dimension is alluded to, and everything that is said points to the demon world being all that there is.

Fundamentally, I think your own interpretation is assuming that a character can't possess nine-dimensional powers or an intangible nine-dimensional soul and still exist in a three-dimensional world, even if the character's actual body is still only three-dimensional. Realistically that might be true, albeit debatably given an intangible object doesn't interact with the world around it and powers always break basic rules of science, but applying it to fiction here would challenge many verses, not just DMC, and would go against many whacky higher dimensional things authors do. Just about any higher dimensional ability that can take action in a lower dimension, in fact.

Keeping in mind that if we strictly impose scientific rules on fiction, particularly scientific rules relating to collateral damage and environmental destruction, and things a character couldn't physically do without breaking what he's doing it to or on, many characters and their abilities, and even their canon actions, become infeasible. Superman collides with Doomsday full force, both able to withstand black holes, both get hurt, the impact would probably split the planet apart if we demand total adherence to scientific rules. Many lifting and striking feats are infeasible here too, as they would realistically punch through the object rather than lift it. Shinra kicks a moon up in the sky, what would happen is his foot would go into it as far as it could go, and if there was enough impact left to knock it back up into orbit, the moon would break, not fly back up.
 
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Random-Helper323 said:
Assuming an abstract concept and soul actually require space at all seems a bit questionable
Click to expand...
They’re given a size, you can localize a soul, trap it if you will. All properties of being in a certain place.
Random-Helper323 said:
If most of the human's soul is in the demon world then it doesn't make sense that the soul transmutes into a demon or a tree or stone when it enters.
Click to expand...
Well thanks for giving me more arguments for why the soul should be 3D when alive, granted I’m not sure how much it matters anymore due to the significance thingy I brought up.
Random-Helper323 said:
Fundamentally, I think your own interpretation is assuming that a character can't possess nine-dimensional powers or an intangible nine-dimensional soul and still exist in a three-dimensional world, even if the character's actual body is still only three-dimensional. Realistically that might be true, albeit debatably given an intangible object doesn't interact with the world around it and powers always break basic rules of science, but applying it to fiction here would challenge many verses, not just DMC, and would go against many whacky higher dimensional things authors do. Just about any higher dimensional ability that can take action in a lower dimension, in fact.
Click to expand...
I’m just saying the soul is too big to be completely in the human world if it’s 9D at all times, regardless of it being abstract or not. The rest is a tangent which is not relevant to what I’m saying.
 
So basically soul manipulation can't affect a 9D soul unless the soul manipulation got 9 layers and higher?
 
What are you saying and in response to what? You need 9D range to affect a 9D soul, even if it’s insignificantly large across 6 of those dimensions apparently, that’s all there is to it. No “layers” or whatever.
 
Ok… well I edited my message and replied. Please don’t derail the thread like that anymore than I already have.
 
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