Adding a new key for The Source

[Elizio33]

Okay

 

[Elizio33]

Can you unlock the profile of The Source?

 

[Antvasima]

I handled it. Should other pages be unlocked as well?

The Source

The Source is a metaphysical concept created by writer/artist Jack Kirby for his Fourth World series of comic books. It first appeared in New Gods #1 (February 1971). It is the source of all that exists. Mostly associated with the New Gods, the Source was the supposed origin of the Godwave that...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Elizio33]

I handled it. Should other pages be unlocked as well?

The Source

The Source is a metaphysical concept created by writer/artist Jack Kirby for his Fourth World series of comic books. It first appeared in New Gods #1 (February 1971). It is the source of all that exists. Mostly associated with the New Gods, the Source was the supposed origin of the Godwave that...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Yes please.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Which ones, specifically? Please link to them here.

 

[Elizio33]

The Overvoid

The Presence

DC Cosmology

 

[Antvasima]

The Overvoid

The Overvoid, also known as "Monitor-Mind The Overvoid", and the "Unknowable", is the transparent, eternal void of pure consciousness and nothingness that underlies all of creation. It exists beyond the totality of Creation and even the Source Wall, the trans-universal edges of existence where...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The Presence

The Presence is the representation of the Judeo-Christian God in the DC Multiverse and the father of both Lucifer Morningstar and Michael Demiurgos. Although his power is virtually unparalleled, he rarely interferes in the affairs of mortals directly, instead acting through agents and aspects of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

DC Comics Cosmology

This page is dedicated to outlining the distinctions between DC Comics's different cosmologies. To summarize, the DC Universe has three dominant cosmologies characterized primarily (but not exclusively) by their authors: Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion IV, and Joshua Williamson; J.M...

vsbattles.fandom.com

I handled it.

 

[Hayato5652]

The Overvoid

The Overvoid, also known as "Monitor-Mind The Overvoid", and the "Unknowable", is the transparent, eternal void of pure consciousness and nothingness that underlies all of creation. It exists beyond the totality of Creation and even the Source Wall, the trans-universal edges of existence where...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The Presence

The Presence is the representation of the Judeo-Christian God in the DC Multiverse and the father of both Lucifer Morningstar and Michael Demiurgos. Although his power is virtually unparalleled, he rarely interferes in the affairs of mortals directly, instead acting through agents and aspects of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

DC Comics Cosmology

This page is dedicated to outlining the distinctions between DC Comics's different cosmologies. To summarize, the DC Universe has three dominant cosmologies characterized primarily (but not exclusively) by their authors: Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion IV, and Joshua Williamson; J.M...

vsbattles.fandom.com

I handled it.

If possible, please change the BDE Type 2 presence to BDE Type 3,
because BDE Type 2 is for Tier Low 1-A

 

[Hayato5652]

Is Perpetua not affected?

I wish the “Likely” label were also removed from Perpetua
I’m talking about Tier High 1-A

It’s true that she doesn’t surpass the Source,but she interacted with it and was able to use it,and she even interacted with the Overvoid....

Even The Hands don’t have a “Likely” label, yet Perpetua does

Even Wally West and Barry, since Deep Change is one of the important aspects of Creation,
were indirectly upgraded to Tier High 1-A,It doesn’t make sense for Perpetua, after all the feats she has shown,
to be considered only “Likely” High 1-A

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizio33

What do you think?

 

[Elizio33]

I agree with everything.

 

[Rgerdeena]

there’s a note on the source’s profile and and overvoid’s profile that should probably be either edited or removed because of what’s been accepted on this thread

While there is some overlapping symbolism between the Source, the Presence, and the Overvoid, they are not identical. The Overvoid is the absolute backdrop of creation, the beginningless and endless expanse of pure nothingness tied to God, often described metaphorically by Grant Morrison as the blank page upon which everything is "drawn." Himon's theory that the Source is a product of a self-referential void is coherent with other portrayals that identify it as a manifestation of the Creator's power and as the Light, a creation of God that brings everything into existence from the formless void. Grant Morrison clarified that the Overvoid is the absolute ground of reality, while the Source and the Presence are condensed, contextualized expressions of this Absolute.

Furthermore, the Presence admitted that he was shaped by external forces, with these forces reflecting the collective beliefs of humanity, which shaped an identity and form known as "Yahweh". At the same time, he is described as infinite and eternal, aligning with descriptions of the Void. This corresponds with the story the Presence tells Lucifer about the Monkey King and the Buddha. The Monkey King attempts to defy the Buddha by leaping beyond the universe and marking his will on the pillars of the sky, only to discover that they are part of the Buddha's being. Similarly, Lucifer's attempt to escape God by entering the Void fails, since even the Void lies within God's will. This parallels the Monks of Klaa in Sandman: Overture, who describe the universe as a thought within God's mind drifting across the Void. Taken together, these interpretations suggest that the Overvoid is the true form of God, creation consists of God's thoughts, and the Source and the Presence are manifestations or emanations of God.

 

[Re5yh]

DC Comics Cosmology

This page is dedicated to outlining the distinctions between DC Comics's different cosmologies. To summarize, the DC Universe has three dominant cosmologies characterized primarily (but not exclusively) by their authors: Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion IV, and Joshua Williamson; J.M...

vsbattles.fandom.com

While reading this, I found something very shocking: Nearly like 67% of Goofy's scans could not be found, which includes the Vertigo section and some parts on the crisis. The scans should be updated now

 

[Elizio33]

Updated footnote for the Overvoid/Source/Presence:

The Source and the Presence have often been portrayed as the Light of Creation since Dark Crisis (2020), a depiction that appeared to contradict the understanding that the Source, the Presence, and the Overvoid are identical. This was clarified in New Gods (2025) #12, which established that the Source possesses a pure, pre-creational form: a white emptiness brimming with unrealized potential, existing prior to the Great Darkness. The Light of Creation and the Great Darkness are conceptual opposites, with the Light representing the first knowable expression of existence, while the Darkness stands as the antithesis of creation and the absence of light. Grant Morrison described the Great Darkness as the first contradiction, emerging spontaneously as an evolving property of the Overvoid itself; yet even its awakening, as depicted in Alan Moore’s Swamp Thing, unfolds according to God’s plan established since the beginning of time, rather than standing outside it.

The Overvoid is the ultimate, pre-creational ground of reality: the beginningless expanse of pure nothingness and the true form of both the Source and the Presence, beyond all dualities. Many stories associate the Void with the full extent of God, from which all things are drawn. The Source and the Presence, as encountered after emanation, are the Overvoid expressed in manifest form as the Light of Creation, their knowable expression, untainted and incomprehensible, through which all reality flows.

Stories such as the Monkey King, told by the Presence (Yahweh) to Lucifer Morningstar, illustrate that no matter how one attempts to escape, even by reaching the Void, the Presence remains an inescapable part of existence. Similarly, the Monks of Klaa describe the universe as a thought within God’s mind during meditation. In this way, the Source and the Presence in the form of the Light act as a relational emanation, allowing interaction with creation without departing from the infinite, immutable Overvoid.

 

[Hayato5652]

I agree with everything.

Does it need a separate CRT? Or can it already be affected now and have its page edited?

 

[Antvasima]

Updated footnote for the Overvoid/Source/Presence:

The Source and the Presence have often been portrayed as the Light of Creation since Dark Crisis (2020), a depiction that appeared to contradict the understanding that the Source, the Presence, and the Overvoid are identical. This was clarified in New Gods (2025) #12, which established that the Source possesses a pure, pre-creational form: a white emptiness brimming with unrealized potential, existing prior to the Great Darkness. The Light of Creation and the Great Darkness are conceptual opposites, with the Light representing the first knowable expression of existence, while the Darkness stands as the antithesis of creation and the absence of light. Grant Morrison described the Great Darkness as the first contradiction, emerging spontaneously as an evolving property of the Overvoid itself; yet even its awakening, as depicted in Alan Moore’s Swamp Thing, unfolds according to God’s plan established since the beginning of time, rather than standing outside it.

The Overvoid is the ultimate, pre-creational ground of reality: the beginningless expanse of pure nothingness and the true form of both the Source and the Presence, beyond all dualities. Many stories associate the Void with the full extent of God, from which all things are drawn. The Source and the Presence, as encountered after emanation, are the Overvoid expressed in manifest form as the Light of Creation, their knowable expression, untainted and incomprehensible, through which all reality flows.

Stories such as the Monkey King, told by the Presence (Yahweh) to Lucifer Morningstar, illustrate that no matter how one attempts to escape, even by reaching the Void, the Presence remains an inescapable part of existence. Similarly, the Monks of Klaa describe the universe as a thought within God’s mind during meditation. In this way, the Source and the Presence in the form of the Light act as a relational emanation, allowing interaction with creation without departing from the infinite, immutable Overvoid.

I think that seems fine to add.

 

[Elizio33]

I think that seems fine to add.

Okay.

 

[Averroes1]

why are they only H1A when the darkness is itself H1A+

 

[Elizio33]

why are they only H1A when the darkness is itself H1A+

The Great Darkness is the going to be downgraded to High 1-A instead.

 

[Hayato5652]

Is Perpetua not affected?

I wish the “Likely” label were also removed from Perpetua
I’m talking about Tier High 1-A

It’s true that she doesn’t surpass the Source,but she interacted with it and was able to use it,and she even interacted with the Overvoid....

Even The Hands don’t have a “Likely” label, yet Perpetua does

Even Wally West and Barry, since Deep Change is one of the important aspects of Creation,
were indirectly upgraded to Tier High 1-A,It doesn’t make sense for Perpetua, after all the feats she has shown,
to be considered only “Likely” High 1-A

IN THE GREATER OMNIVERSE, AMONG ALL HER BROTHERS AND SISTERS TENDING THE INFINITE MULTIVERSES WITHIN, NO BEING WAS MORE FEARED. MORE REVILED.

Throughout the story...
we at least came to the understanding that Perpetua is far, far beyond the Sixth Dimension, and even when she was defeated by the Darkest Knight, she was not fully in her prime. Overall, what I’m trying to say is that Perpetua was the most terrifying Super Celestial and I think it’s necessary for the Key "Likely" to be remove so that she can reach High 1-A Tier, exactly like her own race, the Hands

 

[Elizio33]

Throughout the story...
we at least came to the understanding that Perpetua is far, far beyond the Sixth Dimension, and even when she was defeated by the Darkest Knight, she was not fully in her prime. Overall, what I’m trying to say is that Perpetua was the most terrifying Super Celestial and I think it’s necessary for the Key "Likely" to be remove so that she can reach High 1-A Tier, exactly like her own race, the Hands

I agree to remove the "Likely"

 

[Antvasima]

The Great Darkness is going to be downgraded to High 1-A instead.

That seems fine to me. I think that you can edit the page accordingly if you wish.

The Great Darkness

The Great Darkness is the primordial darkness that preceded everything, before the creator emanated light into creation. It was so cold and dark for so long that the birth of a burning light was imperceptible, but the flickering light grew until nothing was no longer everything and the darkness...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Antvasima]

I agree to remove the "Likely"

That seems fine to me as well then.

 

[Hayato5652]

I think the Perpetua page should also be opened so the changes can be made

• Perpetua

 

[Antvasima]

I have done so, but she likely needs an extra key for her original prime state.

 

[Hayato5652]

I suggest that Perpetua should have two keys:

one 1-A+ and one High 1-A,
without a "Likely" key...

For example, when she is fighting the Ultra Monitor and is being held back, she should be 1-A+ and when she is in her Prime state, like all Super Celestials that have High 1-A, she should have a High 1-A key

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. That seems reasonable, if @Elizio33 agrees with it.

 

[Elizio33]

I suggest that Perpetua should have two keys:

one 1-A+ and one High 1-A,
without a "Likely" key...

For example, when she is fighting the Ultra Monitor and is being held back, she should be 1-A+ and when she is in her Prime state, like all Super Celestials that have High 1-A, she should have a High 1-A key

How this would affect the Darkest Knight ? Because the Darkest Knight had been acknowledged by the Hands as a threat to them.

 

[Rgerdeena]

How this would affect the Darkest Knight ? Because the Darkest Knight had been acknowledged by the Hands as a threat to them.

Probably high 1-A since he also scales to Perpetua and he scales to doctor manhattan who scales to Perpetua so overall there seems to be enough evidence for him to be high 1-A

 

[Re5yh]

So,will there be a thread for merging the overvoid, the source, the void (vertigo) and the presence into one profile?

 

[Elizio33]

So,will there be a thread for merging the overvoid, the source, the void (vertigo) and the presence into one profile?

Yes

 

[Elizio33]

Probably high 1-A since he also scales to Perpetua and he scales to doctor manhattan who scales to Perpetua so overall there seems to be enough evidence for him to be high 1-A

Good point. There is also this statement from Scott Snyder that Perpetua is in a diminished state. If I remember correctly, that's why I placed her "Likely" High 1-A. Maybe we should add three keys for her:

Diminished State (Weakened) | Diminished State (Full Power) | Prime State

The first state would be 1-A+ for scaling to the Ultra-Monitor and her dominance over Hypertime. The second would be High 1-A for scaling to the Darkest Knight, her multiversal dominance, and her nearly destroying the Multiverse, Hypertime, and the Speed Force. The third would be High 1-A for scaling to the Hands and creating the Multiverse and triggering the Big Bang with the Source’s energies.

What do you think?

 

[Hayato5652]

How this would affect the Darkest Knight ? Because the Darkest Knight had been acknowledged by the Hands as a threat to them.

According to Darkest Knight, he says that he can kill The Hands.. and he also possessed the power of the Super Celestials who created the Multiverse:

This means that the Darkest Knight has reached a similar level, or even something close to The Hands, to the point that he speaks so confidently about killing them. However, despite all of this, Diana is still comparable to the Darkest Knight:

I think all three of them should reach Tier High 1-A, since all of them have reached the level of The Hands. Darkest has their powers, threatens to kill them, and so on…

 

[Elizio33]

According to Darkest Knight, he says that he can kill The Hands.. and he also possessed the power of the Super Celestials who created the Multiverse:

This means that the Darkest Knight has reached a similar level, or even something close to The Hands, to the point that he speaks so confidently about killing them. However, despite all of this, Diana is still comparable to the Darkest Knight:

I think all three of them should reach Tier High 1-A, since all of them have reached the level of The Hands. Darkest has their powers, threatens to kill them, and so on…

Okay. So do you agree with my proposal above about the three keys for Perpetua ?

 

[Hayato5652]

Good point. There is also this statement from Scott Snyder that Perpetua is in a diminished state. If I remember correctly, that's why I placed her "Likely" High 1-A. Maybe we should add three keys for her:

Diminished State (Weakened) | Diminished State (Full Power) | Prime State

The first state would be 1-A+ for scaling to the Ultra-Monitor and her dominance over Hypertime. The second would be High 1-A for scaling to the Darkest Knight, her multiversal dominance, and her nearly destroying the Multiverse, Hypertime, and the Speed Force. The third would be High 1-A for scaling to the Hands and creating the Multiverse and triggering the Big Bang with the Source’s energies.

What do you think?

I absolutely agree.

The fact that Perpetua reaches the most accurate scale is valuable to me, and having these three keys helps the website’s audience avoid mixing different concepts together. These three keys are also very well suited for Perpetua

 

[Hayato5652]

Honestly, I’m worried that this might not happen, especially since Antvasima has also agreed with this point...and has opened the Perpetua page

Wouldn’t it be better to make the changes? And if you’re not in a position to do it right now, you can make the changes whenever you feel ready

 

[Firestorm808]

Good point. There is also this statement from Scott Snyder that Perpetua is in a diminished state. If I remember correctly, that's why I placed her "Likely" High 1-A. Maybe we should add three keys for her:

Diminished State (Weakened) | Diminished State (Full Power) | Prime State

The first state would be 1-A+ for scaling to the Ultra-Monitor and her dominance over Hypertime. The second would be High 1-A for scaling to the Darkest Knight, her multiversal dominance, and her nearly destroying the Multiverse, Hypertime, and the Speed Force. The third would be High 1-A for scaling to the Hands and creating the Multiverse and triggering the Big Bang with the Source’s energies.

What do you think?

Is this thread concluded?

Will the Perpetua topic be in a new thread?

 

[Elyartaker]

Regarding the new updated pages, please also update BDE to type 3 and REMOVE large size type 10.
I don't know why large size is still used for such characters when it doesn't even crack Low 1-A, let alone qualitative size.

 

[Antvasima]

How this would affect the Darkest Knight ? Because the Darkest Knight had been acknowledged by the Hands as a threat to them.

Have they genuinely acknowedged him as a legitimate threat, or did he only think so himself?

 

[Antvasima]

Good point. There is also this statement from Scott Snyder that Perpetua is in a diminished state. If I remember correctly, that's why I placed her "Likely" High 1-A. Maybe we should add three keys for her:

Diminished State (Weakened) | Diminished State (Full Power) | Prime State

The first state would be 1-A+ for scaling to the Ultra-Monitor and her dominance over Hypertime. The second would be High 1-A for scaling to the Darkest Knight, her multiversal dominance, and her nearly destroying the Multiverse, Hypertime, and the Speed Force. The third would be High 1-A for scaling to the Hands and creating the Multiverse and triggering the Big Bang with the Source’s energies.

What do you think?

I agree about the three keys, but am not sure if key number two should reach High 1-A.