Adding a new key for The Source

[Rgerdeena]

Have they genuinely acknowedged him as a legitimate threat, or did he only think so himself?

The hands said he’s a threat to them(the link is on his profile)

I agree about the three keys, but am not sure if key number two should reach High 1-A.

Number two scales to the speed force and scales to darkest knight who scales to the hands, do you have a reason for her not being high 1-A in number two

 

[Elizio33]

Have they genuinely acknowedged him as a legitimate threat, or did he only think so himself?

The Hands told Diana after defeating the Darkest Knight that she had saved them, whereas they would not have done the same for her and the other inhabitants of the Multiverse.

I agree about the three keys, but am not sure if key number two should reach High 1-A.

Perpetua restored her former power, damaged the Speed Force, and scale to the Darkest Knight.

 

[Hayato5652]

You’re right… I just remembered now… having two keys makes sense

But I recommend that we don’t drag this discussion out and end it here, and apply the profile changes to Great Darkness and the other characters that Antvasima has opened, since the only connection this CRT has to Perpetua is that Perpetua has access to the Source and can use it.

 

[Hayato5652]

The Hands told Diana after defeating the Darkest Knight that she had saved them, whereas they would not have done the same for her and the other inhabitants of the Multiverse.

Perpetua restored her former power, damaged the Speed Force, and scale to the Darkest Knight.

To strengthen your argument, I want to point out that even the Darkest Knight has the ability to burn and even interact with the Speed Force

And even the speedsters from the Dark Multiverse that were sent by the Darkest Knight to attack Wally West and the other speedsters

 

[Antvasima]

The Hands told Diana after defeating the Darkest Knight that she had saved them, whereas they would not have done the same for her and the other inhabitants of the Multiverse.

Hmm. Didn't they only say that from her perspective she sacrificed herself to save them, rather than confirming that TDK was a legitimate thret? I may misremember what I read long ago though.

Perpetua restored her former power, damaged the Speed Force, and scale to the Darkest Knight.

Okay, but if the two keys are equal, shouldn't they be combined?

 

[Hayato5652]

Hmm. Didn't they only say that from her perspective she sacrificed herself to save them, rather than confirming that TDK was a legitimate thret? I may misremember what I read long ago though.

Okay, but if the two keys are equal, shouldn't they be combined?

I mentioned on the previous page that the Darkest Knight possesses the powers of the Super Celestials specifically, the race of The Hands and Perpetua. This means that the Darkest Knight has power similar to, and even close to, that of The Hands.
Even if we ignore everything I said before, both the Darkest Knight and Perpetua have the ability to damage and burn the Speed Force, which is an important aspect of Creation and is rated High 1-A Tier...

I was only suggesting that Perpetua is a suitable option as a Tier, since she created the original Multiverse and was able to create her sons using a fragment of the Overvoid, and she can even use The Source to create a Multiverse.

I summarized everything as much as possible so that you could understand the point

 

[Antvasima]

I mentioned on the previous page that the Darkest Knight possesses the powers of the Super Celestials specifically, the race of The Hands and Perpetua. This means that the Darkest Knight has power similar to, and even close to, that of The Hands.

Please explain further.

Even if we ignore everything I said before, both the Darkest Knight and Perpetua have the ability to damage and burn the Speed Force, which is an important aspect of Creation and is rated High 1-A Tier...

I was only suggesting that Perpetua is a suitable option as a Tier, since she created the original Multiverse and was able to create her sons using a fragment of the Overvoid, and she can even use The Source to create a Multiverse.

That seems reasonable to me.

 

[Hayato5652]

Please explain further.

Sure, when the Darkest Knight wasf ighting Diana while she possessed the Anti-Crisis power, a hand suddenly attacked Diana. Diana, who had cosmic awareness, suddenly said:
“THE HAND THAT MADE THE MULTIVERSE?”

I’m not here to argue or debate for the removal of the “Likely” High 1-A key from the Darkest Knight!

Diana pointed out that this hand and this power belong to the Super-Celestials, Even on the next page, the Darkest Knight himself stated that this power belongs to Perpetua and the race of the Super-Celestials, which means that the Darkest Knight possesses power similar to, or even close to, that of the Super-Celestials...

Note: I think that after the Darkest Knight defeated Perpetua, he absorbed a portion of her power or something like that?! This is just speculation and is not reliable at all, but it’s the best guess that can be made...

The Darkest Knight admitted twice that he could kill the Hands, but in my opinion this is an exaggeration. This is because the Darkest Knight strongly insisted on teaming up with Diana to fight the Hands, which, to me, seemed like he was begging for his life

And yes, the decision to remove the “Likely” key from the Darkest Knight should not be mine… Elizio33 should decide, because I believe that the Darkest Knight defeated a weakened version of Perpetua...


And regarding Perpetua, in order to fully prove my claim that Perpetua can use the Source and created the Multiverse:

In the beginning, there was the Source, the infinite force of creation. Its cosmic agents, celestial beings called the Hands, shaped its energy into the Big Bang that we know as the Dawn of Time.

The Big Bang gave rise to stars, planets, and the Endless-seven powerful entities who each represented an aspect of this new reality. Among them were Destiny, Death, and the Dream Lord, master of his realm, the Dreaming

Also, Perpetua is responsible for the creation of characters who are all High 1-A...

 

[Antvasima]

I am afraid that I do not see any compelling evidence for The Darkest Knight having power on the same level as The Hands, rather than a few unfounded assumptions from characters.

 

[Elizio33]

I am afraid that I do not see any compelling evidence for The Darkest Knight having power on the same level as the hands, rather than a few unfounded assumptions from characters.

My apologies for the late reply, i'm overwhelmed with exams before the holidays. This is the scan:

One of the Hands told Diana that she and her people had fought knowing that the Hands would annihilate them, and that Diana had saved them when they would have saved no one. This happened after Diana defeated the Darkest Knight, whose goal was to kill the Hands. The Hands would not have said that if the Darkest Knight had not been able to destroy them.

 

[Elizio33]

[

Okay, but if the two keys are equal, shouldn't they be combined?

I don't think so, because Scott Snyder said that Perpetua lost her true nature when she was called upon to shape the Multiverse.

 

[Elizio33]

Proposal for the three keys.

Tier: 1-A+ | High 1-A | High 1-A

Key: Diminished State (Weakened) | Diminished State (Full Power) | True State

Attack Potency: Outerverse level+ (Vastly superior to her three children and capable of contending with their merged form, the Ultra-Monitor, despite lacking her full power) | High Outerverse level (Having regained her former powers, Perpetua established the Forces of Doom as the energies governing reality, reasserting her dominance over the Multiverse. Drawing upon the Crisis Energy, she was systematically dismantling the supports that reinforced the hero-aligned configuration of the Multiverse, destroying most of it. Hypertime and the Speed Force suffered severe collateral damage and she openly threatened to recreate the Multiverse in a vicious and predatory form. Her battle against the Darkest Knight raged across every facet of reality and threatened the total collapse of the Multiversal system) | High Outerverse level (Comparable to the other Hands of the Source, Perpetua shaped the Source’s energies into the Big Bang, through which she structured a fully realized Multiversal system, from which the Endless emerged as embodiments of its fundamental aspects)

 

[Elizio33]

Darkest Knight

Tier: High 1-A

Attack Potency: High Outerverse level (Acquired a power comparable to that of Doctor Manhattan after transplanting his brain into the corpse of a Bruce Wayne from the Dark Multiverse who was imbued with said power, which caused Perpetua to sense a disturbance. In a race against the Flash Family, he exerted pressure on the Speed Force, corrupting it and altering the physical appearances of the Speedsters, except Wally West, into dark versions. After empowering himself with Crisis Energy, the Darkest Knight ascended to godhood over the Multiverse, with his presence causing reality to quake, refugees across the Multiverse to feel his reach, the lights of Hypertime to burn out, and the last great powers of the Sphere of the Gods to shudder at his might. He had the power to kill Perpetua, with their battle raging every facet of reality and threatened total collapse of the Multiversal system and culminating in her death. Claimed to be able to kill the Hands, who later told Wonder Woman that they had been effectively saved by her)

 

[Elizio33]

@Antvasima what do you think?

 

[IvarUHQ]

@Elizio33 Regarding all these changes, will this affect Prayala?

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that is probably fine then.

 

[Hayato5652]

Darkest Knight

Tier: High 1-A

Attack Potency: High Outerverse level (Acquired a power comparable to that of Doctor Manhattan after transplanting his brain into the corpse of a Bruce Wayne from the Dark Multiverse who was imbued with said power, which caused Perpetua to sense a disturbance. In a race against the Flash Family, he exerted pressure on the Speed Force, corrupting it and altering the physical appearances of the Speedsters, except Wally West, into dark versions. After empowering himself with Crisis Energy, Darkest Knight ascended to godhood over the Multiverse, with his presence causing reality to quake, refugees across the Multiverse to feel his reach, the lights of Hypertime to burn out, and the last great powers of the Sphere of the Gods to shudder at his might. He had the power to kill Perpetua, with their battle raging every facet of reality and threatened total collapse of the Multiversal system and culminating in her death. Claimed to be able to kill the Hands, who later told Wonder Woman that they had been effectively saved by her)

...and wonder woman?! Anti crisis form

@Elizio33 Regarding all these changes, will this affect Prayala?

Pralaya is related to J.M. DeMatteis’ canon, not Vertigo and not the Crisis events.

 

[Rgerdeena]

...and wonder woman?! Anti crisis form

She’d just be High outerversal with the same justification she already has on her profile since matching darkest knight is her only feat in that form

 

[Elizio33]

She’d just be High outerversal with the same justification she already has on her profile since matching darkest knight is her only feat in that form

Indeed.

 

[Elizio33]

@Elizio33 Regarding all these changes, will this affect Prayala?

Pralaya is another interpretation of the Great Darkness according to a different belief system. So, technically, she would scale the same.

 

[Hayato5652]

When will the profiles changes be made?

 

[Zarovut]

Alright. Looking through this thread, I think the conclusions so far are as follows:

1. The Overvoid/Presence/Source --> Upgraded from High 1-A to High 1-A+/0
2. The Great Darkness/Pralaya --> Downgraded from High 1-A+ to High 1-A
3. Anti-Crisis Wonder Woman/The Darkest Knight/Perpetua --> Removed the "likely" tag from their High 1-A rating

If there are some mistakes, then you can correct me.

 

[Elizio33]

Alright. Looking through this thread, I think the conclusions so far are as follows:

1. The Overvoid/Presence/Source --> Upgraded from High 1-A to High 1-A+/0
2. The Great Darkness/Pralaya --> Downgraded from High 1-A+ to High 1-A
3. Anti-Crisis Wonder Woman/The Darkest Knight/Perpetua --> Removed the "likely" tag from their High 1-A rating

If there are some mistakes, then you can correct me.

You're almost right, but the tier 0 and Pralaya downgrade would be handled in another thread.

 

[Elizio33]

When will the profiles changes be made?

I would be able to do it tomorrow.

 

[Hayato5652]

You're almost right, but the tier 0 and Pralaya downgrade would be handled in another thread.

Abstract Existence (Type 2; Is part of an extension of the Overvoid)

If Overvoid reaches High 1-A+ tier or gets upgrade in any way, wouldn’t that affect CAS as well? Since CAS is essentially a fragment of the Overvoid. I mean, being a part of something infinite means you are still a portion of that same Overvoid

It’s true that simply being a fragment of something larger doesn’t necessarily result in an upgrade, but we can look at it from another angle and say that since Overvoid has an extremely high level of existence, being a part of it could automatically result in that character being upgrade

 

[Secimatar]

Thread is getting derailed a lot. The original premise of the thread was presence/overvoid/source/light and now we've gone from that to perpetua, hands, tdk, wonder women and now the CAS. I believe everything that has been accepted should be applied and the rest should be proposed in separate threads of their own.

 

[Hayato5652]

All the points discussed here have been addressed, and this CRT is almost finished, so I’m asking about future scaling

 

[Antvasima]

Have all the accepted revisions here been applied?

 

[Hayato5652]

Not yet, but as soon as the changes are applied to the profiles, this CRT should be close

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for your reply.

 

[Elizio33]

I added the footnote to the profiles of The Presence and The Overvoid, but not to The Source because it was locked. I just finished editing Perpetua's profile and now I need the profiles of The Batman Who Laughs and Wonder Woman (Post-Flashpoint) to be unlocked.

 

[Elizio33]

If Overvoid reaches High 1-A+ tier or gets upgrade in any way, wouldn’t that affect CAS as well? Since CAS is essentially a fragment of the Overvoid. I mean, being a part of something infinite means you are still a portion of that same Overvoid

It’s true that simply being a fragment of something larger doesn’t necessarily result in an upgrade, but we can look at it from another angle and say that since Overvoid has an extremely high level of existence, being a part of it could automatically result in that character being upgrade

No, because the Thought Robot is half of the Probe created by the Overvoid to investigate the Flaw, not a portion of the Overvoid itself. But let's not stray from the topic any further. This thread has derailed a lot because of me, and I just want to get it over with.

 

[Elyartaker]

perpetua still has likely in her page.
Also please change BDE type 2 to type 3 in all the affected pages since they are 1-A and above and remove large size 10.

 

[Antvasima]

I added the footnote to the profiles of The Presence and The Overvoid, but not to The Source because it was locked. I just finished editing Perpetua's profile and now I need the profiles of The Batman Who Laughs and Wonder Woman (Post-Flashpoint) to be unlocked.

I will unlock The Source, TBWL, and Wonder Woman pages for you. tell me here when you are done.

 

[Elizio33]

I will unlock The Source, TBWL, and Wonder Woman pages for you. tell me here when you are done.

It's done. This thread can finally be closed. Thank you to everyone who contributed.

 

[Firestorm808]

It's done. This thread can finally be closed. Thank you to everyone who contributed.

Looking at the source page history, I noticed that it's lacking references and removed a references to scans on the page.

High Outerverse level (

• Sits beyond the Multiverse and the Source Wall,
  • "https://www.dc.com/blog/2014/08/18/the-map-of-the-multiverse"
• in an extradimensional place beyond space and time, existing nowhere and everywhere at once,
  • "Jack Kirby's Fourth World Vol 1 #8, October 1997" was removed
• being at, and as, the center of the Greater Omniverse,
  • "Dark Nights: Death Metal Multiverse's End Vol 1 #1 November, 2020"
• encompassing and transcending all.
  • "Jack Kirby's Fourth World Vol 1 #1 March, 1997" was removed
• As the Light of Creation, it is the pure informational totality, the very first knowable expression of existence, untainted and incomprehensible, containing all the many meanings of everything at once.
  • "The New Gods Vol 1 #1 February, 2025"
• All of existence enamates from it
  • Missing "The Flash Vol 6 #11 September, 2024"
• as a dream, extending to the very root of Time, conceptually tied to the Deep Change,
  • Missing "The Flash Vol 6 #13, November, 2024"
• a mathematical principle underlying all things.
  • Also from "The Flash Vol 6 #13, November, 2024"
• A fragment of the Source, known as the Philosopher’s Stone, can affect all of time and space)
  • Missing "JLA Vol 1 #11, October, 1997"

 

[Firestorm808]

Added the references.

 

[Elizio33]

Added the references.

Thanks.

 

[Firestorm808]

Was this profile also affected by this thread?

The Hands (DC Comics)

The Hands are a breed of super celestial beings generated and sent by The Source to configure and birth Multiverses through the Overvoid, using Connective Energy born of The Presence/Source. With the creation of their Multiverse, each member of The Hands would pass on, giving their lives to...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Elizio33]

Was this profile also affected by this thread?

The Hands (DC Comics)

The Hands are a breed of super celestial beings generated and sent by The Source to configure and birth Multiverses through the Overvoid, using Connective Energy born of The Presence/Source. With the creation of their Multiverse, each member of The Hands would pass on, giving their lives to...

vsbattles.fandom.com

This topic will be addressed in another discussion thread.