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Akechi V.S Naoto

Kople700

Kople700

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Both at "At least 4-A" Speed Equalized Battle takes place in shido's palace (the palce the p thieves fought aketchi)

Who wins and why?
 
Akechi would normally stomp with Call of Chaos, since Naoto doesn't resist Madness Manip. Though since Naoto would be empowered by the madness, the question is which happens first: Naoto's mind breaks, or the now-willpower-empowered Naoto takes down Akechi.

It should be noted though that Akechi has a massive AP advantage over Naoto. Naoto scales to mid-Casino Phantom Thieves, while Akechi took on all the Phantom Thieves at once after they'd grown stronger over the course of Shido's Palace.

As much as it pains me, I'm voting for Akechi.
 
No real difference. No Loki means no Call of Chaos to unknowingly buff Naoto. If anything the AP gap is even wider without it. Although I guess Naoto can apparently spam Shield of Justice as of Arena, so she might have a chance at whittling him away.
 
As of Persona 5 Royal, it seems that Loki's Persona is weak to Bless. Naoto can easily answer that via Mamuudon. It's also important to note that while Naoto has Goro's weakness as a trump card, Goro, however, doesn't. Not because he doesn't have versatility, however none of Naoto's Persona's have a weakness.

I always say that one specific advantage in physical stats is never what decides a fight between SMT / Persona characters, and this is no exception. Goro's AP advantage can be dealt with via Tetrakarn, and Angelic Grace, which means she has a higher chance of evading anything that isn't Almighty. Depending on if it's Sukuna-Hikona, Yamato-Takeru, or Yamato Sumeragi, Naoto either resists/blocks/repels Light and Dark abilities, Goro's primary form of attack. Even should Goro start to use Almighty, Shield of Justice can deal with that.

Regardless, this still isn't an easy fight for Naoto. She has no way to deal with his buffs or debuffs, and he can negate her own if he wishes. But, I still think she takes this, especially with Vorpal Blade in her arsenal, which is getting quite a hefty buff soon. Overall, I'm going to say Naoto 5.5/10.
 
Do remember that Goro also has Makarakarn. The moment he sees (Ma)Mudoon appear, he's going to reflect it right back if not just dodge it with Evade Bless. Also take into account that Goro is much more experienced with Personas than Naoto at this point in time, having years of fighting under his belt.

At least in the context of P4 Golden, Shield of Justice is also very SP-intensive, taking more than twice the amount of effort to cast compared to Megidolaon. Goro can spam his own Megidolaon once he figures out his Bless and Curse spells don't work. Hell, he can just stick to the cheaper Megidola and rain hell, where every raindrop is a crippling blow.

Also don't know why you think Vorpal Blade is relevant. All Persona-users resist space-cutting enough that it's just a regular attack to them, instead of dura neg, and Tetrakarn still works on it.

Sticking to Goro.
 
Nice response.

Makarakarn is indeed a very big threat, however, just like Goro, Naoto has Megidolaon. However, take note that Evade Bless works on non-instant death Bless skills. Hamaon/Mahamon blasts through that, being a instant death Bless skill. Also, should Goro reflect this, he doesn't benefit himself. Since Yamato Sumeragi reflects Bless, that means it is just going to be reflected back towards Goro, and since he has to manually cast Makarakarn, he won't have time to do it to defend himself again.

Shield of Justice, is indeed taxing on Naoto, however Invigorate 3 helps deal with that cost with constant magic regen. I suggested Vorpal Blade because of it's dura neg, because that's the only skill in Persona that does this offensively, but I see your point. Naoto can also use Megidola, so danmaku vs danmaku. Looking at her PQ skills, it seems that Naoto can also use Dekunda, so his buffs won't mean much.

I still say Naoto just barely edges out via having his weakness on deck, and his evasion skill just barely unable to compensate for it.
 
Evade Bless only doesn't work on instant-kill moves due to game mechanics treating them as undodgeable. As shown in Arena, however, they are very much so, and would this still fall under what Evade Bless/Curse work on. As for reflecting back the reflected projectile, Goro could easily just dodge it, since at that point he's seen it coming. Makarakarn is instant, so he can put it up as fast as he reacts.

Invigorate absolutely cannot help combat the drain of being forced to spam Shield of Justice. SoJ only works on one incoming attack at a time, so Goro's rush of Megido-beams would tire her out in seconds. Plus, that's assuming Naoto won't try to take the hit in order to gamble on a move that could give her the advantage only to get bombarded by the moves being far stronger than anticipated. Goro's danmaku is also far stronger than Naoto's danmaku, so his beams will just blast through her own.

Dekunda? Naoto would need Dekaja to negate Akechi's buffs. Not that it would work on his Desperation or Call of Chaos buffs even if she did.
 
No, there still is a chance to evade Death/Bless even without Evade skills, even with things such as Mamuudon or Mahamon. I haven't seen that work in Arena, so if possible I would like to see proof. Because as far as it goes, no Bless or Death is unavoidable, and Evade only helps... well, evade. But since Goro's only goes so far, Naoto can easily kill him. I highly doubt he's dodging an AOE like that, easily since one of Mahamon's applications is it forming under your feet and all around you.

I said that Invigorate can help, not that it would help spam it, though. Naoto isn't dumb enough to tank out a move like that, especially with such a high AP disadvantage. Oops, got them mixed up. Dekunda would really negate any buffs he puts on, minus those two. Regardless, Naoto should be able to resist Goro's madness via it being a subset of mind manipulation. In particular, his madness manip sounds like type 2, which is directly attacking the mind.

So, that is something Naoto should be able to resist.
 
Hm, I am leaning towards Goro here for Sol's reasons, but I will see where this goes. Also, is Naoto's mind resistance comparable to Goro's mind hax potency?
 
I'm unsure if Goro's mindhax is above baseline, so I will not make assumptions. But, for those who suddenly drop into this thread via interest, here's the arguments/wincons here:

Goro:

  • Monumental AP advantage.
  • Buffs Naoto cannot deal with or negate.
  • More experience.
  • Barriers that negate physical and magic attacks.
Naoto:

  • Debatably smarter.
  • Has no real weakness for Goro to exploit.
  • Has his weakness.
  • Barriers that negate physical and magic attacks.
  • Can reflect a majority of his primary attacks.
  • Has a minor super shield, but is very taxing.
 
Wouldn't Akechi's sheer AP advantage make his Megidolaon overwhelm Naoto's? So wouldn't those barriers be pretty useless. And also, would Naoto even know Akechi has such a power advantage over her? She's not dumb, but there is also the fact that she will likely not know off the bat and end up taking a bunch of damage. Akechi kinda doesn't need a weakness to exploit seeing as his almighty attacks will just do that much more damage.

We also need to know Akechi's Mind Hax potency before we say Naoto resists it.
 
Also, Bless or Curse be damned, they are still Instant Kill attacks. Doesn't Akechi have a high resistance to such abilities?
 
Well, Megidolaon already negates barriers so AP advantage is meaningless. Shield of Justice is what allows her to tank at least one Megidolaon. Naoto likely should be able to tell a gap in power, especially since she's comparable to Okumura-level PT's, while Goro has suddenly jumped to Shido level. Almighty Attacks will, however, again, Naoto has an instant death attack that he cannot avoid, and if he reflects will only be refleccted back.
 
Er... no? Goro is weak to Bless. Naoto has Bless. Goro has Evade Bless, which only works on non-instant death attacks. Hamon and Mahamon is instant death AOE. Goro can reflect both. Naoto can reflect both, passively.
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
Er... no? Goro is weak to Bless. Naoto has Bless. Goro has Evade Bless, which only works on non-instant death attacks. Hamon and Mahamon is instant death AOE. Goro can reflect both. Naoto can reflect both, passively.
Click to expand...
And Goro, once again, has a high resistance to Death Manipulation. Goro being weak to bless be damned if he still resists the effect of Death Manipulation.
 
Death Manipulation resistance is getting removed for a lot of characters, unless they specifically resist them stated on the Persona. Loki nor Robin Hood resist death manipulation.
 
But it's on there right now. Just like Goro in P5 is not weak to Bless iirc. The file covers P5 not Royal iirc.

Perhaps you should make a thread on it.
 
Goro in P5 isn't weak to bless because he's a boss, and if you could Hama/Mudo him it wouldn't even be a boss. That applies to all the bosses, from P3-5.
 
If said weakness didn't exist in P5, then it simply didn't exist. Said weakness on the otherhand would exist for Loki in Royal.
 
Yukari in Persona 3: The Answer negs death manipulation because she's a boss. The moment she becomes part of your party, she is just as easily suseptible as everyone else. Again, it is because Goro is a boss, that Mudo/Hama doesn't work, it's a game mechanic. If you could do that to every boss, the game wouldn't be fun, so they break feat for immersion.

It's literally been like this since Persona 3. Goro in Persona 5 is the same as he is in Persona 5 Royal (aside from more character development).
 
"Well, Megidolaon already negates barriers so AP advantage is meaningless. "

How does that make AP meaningless? Negating barriers =/= AP is meaningless.

"Shield of Justice is what allows her to tank at least one Megidolaon."

Okay, and then Akechi does so once again.

"Naoto likely should be able to tell a gap in power, especially since she's comparable to Okumura-level PT's,"

This literally explains nothing about how she does so.

"Naoto has an instant death attack that he cannot avoid, and if he reflects will only be refleccted back."

Considering characters can actively dodge it in game, I am willing to be that he could dodge it. And if you call "Game Mechanics" then we are simply picking and choosing what is and isn't game mechanics.

"Yukari in Persona 3: The Answer negs death manipulation because she's a boss. The moment she becomes part of your party, she is just as easily suseptible as everyone else. "

Mhmm, but this is not the case for P5 Goro. Just because it's like that for Yukari doesn't mean it's automatically the same for every other character. If Loki was weak to Bless in the original, then yeah, I'd concede, but said weakness only pops up in P5 Royal. Loki isn't playable in the original Persona 5 and thus is not contradicted here. Once again, Akechi in the original P5 Universe exists only as a boss character and his instant death resistances should in fact stay for Persona 5. As for Royal, that's a different universe and as such Akechi would have a different set of abilities.
 
How does that make AP meaningless? Negating barriers =/= AP is meaningless.

The fact that Megidolaon already bypasses barriers. I don't see why AP had anything to do with it, it just means the attack's nature bypasses barriers, and the sheer AP behind it oneshots her.

Okay, and then Akechi does so once again.

I'm aware, there's nothing she can do about that.

"This literally explains nothing about how she does so."

That was a bad explanation, I apologize. A better explanation is that powerful Persona users can sense another Persona user's strength, like Elizabeth. They can also do the same with Shadows, iirc.

Considering characters can actively dodge it in game, I am willing to be that he could dodge it. And if you call "Game Mechanics" then we are simply picking and choosing what is and isn't game mechanics.

He can dodge it, however, it is unlikely. AOE, along with the fact that his Evade Bless only works on non-instant kills, and Naoto's are instant kills. Even if he reflects it, Naoto passively reflects it back.

Mhmm, but this is not the case for P5 Goro. Just because it's like that for Yukari doesn't mean it's automatically the same for every other character. If Loki was weak to Bless in the original, then yeah, I'd concede, but said weakness only pops up in P5 Royal. Loki isn't playable in the original Persona 5 and thus is not contradicted here.

It literally is, though. Again, EVERY SINGLE BOSS voids Bless/Death skills simply because if you killed them with that it wouldn't be fun in terms of gameplay. Find me a boss in Persona that can get killed with those skills. Goro gains that weakness when he's playable again simply to make it fair. The Loki in Persona 5 is no different from the one in Persona 5 Royal, minus the fact that Loki is actually playable.
 
"The fact that Megidolaon already bypasses barriers. I don't see why AP had anything to do with it, it just means the attack's nature bypasses barriers, and the sheer AP behind it oneshots her."

Except my point was that the barriers are useless and that Akechi's full AP would kill her. So I do not understand how "AP is irrelevant" is something you bounce back with when the point was that his Megidolaon would flat out obliterate her.

"He can dodge it, however, it is unlikely. AOE, along with the fact that his Evade Bless only works on non-instant kills, and Naoto's are instant kills. Even if he reflects it, Naoto passively reflects it back."

Is it AoE as the animation just shows that it's simply casted on each person individually. Also why would Naoto waste a "AoE" move when she can just use the single target version.

If this is how we treat Persona bosses here, then you should make a thread on removing the Death Manipulation from his file, assuming that's why he even has it.

Even with that advantage, I see Goro winning this more times than not via sheer AP. Not only does he basically one shot her with his abilities. She tanks a Megidolaon with SoJ and simply gets nuked again.
 
Except my point was that the barriers are useless and that Akechi's full AP would kill her. So I do not understand how "AP is irrelevant" is something you bounce back with when the point was that his Megidolaon would flat out obliterate her.

Akechi's AP only matters if he uses Megidolaon, because any magic or physical attack he uses gets utterly reflected via Tetra/Makarakarn. It's only when he uses Megidolaon that it becomes dangerous, because she cannot reflect that in the slightest.

Is it AoE as the animation just shows that it's simply casted on each person individually. Also why would Naoto waste a "AoE" move when she can just use the single target version.

If this is how we treat Persona bosses here, then you should make a thread on removing the Death Manipulation from his file, assuming that's why he even has it.

Even with that advantage, I see Goro winning this more times than not via sheer AP. Not only does he basically one shot her with his abilities. She tanks a Megidolaon with SoJ and simply gets nuked again.

It is an AOE, Persona skills are highly malleable, meaning they can be manipulated to the user's manipulation. Also, lol I'm unsure why that even matters, they ultimately achive the same purpose. Sheer AP isn't really deciding it all, as she can reflect anything that isn't Almighty. She has his weaknesses down, reflects his primary attack, and his biggest way of winning is with an ability he will need to resort to. If he reflects it'll get reflected back and it'll be GG.
 
"Akechi's AP only matters if he uses Megidolaon, because any magic or physical attack he uses gets utterly reflected via Tetra/Makarakarn. It's only when he uses Megidolaon that it becomes dangerous, because she cannot reflect that in the slightest."

But the same is also true for her. Outside of the two insta kills, she doesn't have much that cannot be dodged or reflected, even then, he can still tank many of her skills due to sheer stats.

"It is an AOE, Persona skills are highly malleable, meaning they can be manipulated to the user's manipulation."

Neat, now show me Naoto doing this and using these abilities in that way in character. Just because they can =/= they will.

" Sheer AP isn't really deciding it all, as she can reflect anything that isn't Almighty."

So does Akechi. She passively reflects light, but even then, this assumes that Akechi will just keep using bless when it clearly doesn't work. If he sees his main elements failing, he will go for almighty assuming he doesn't just use it from the get go as I find it very dubious for us to assume which abilities a Person character will actively use in character. And I actually feel that you are overplaying her reflect and underplaying sheer power here. Akechi sees her use a reflect move, he will know to go for a move that bypasses such abilities. One reflected attack won't kill him. Just as she can instantly kill him with the bless insta-kill, Akechi can instantly kill her with one Almighty attack. Which I highly doubt is going to be something he will be so restrictive on using here.

Either Akechi wins or this is incon. That's my unwavering vote here.

I'm unfollowing this as I lack the time to debate this all day.
 
But the same is also true for her. Outside of the two insta kills, she doesn't have much that cannot be dodged or reflected, even then, he can still tank many of her skills due to sheer stats.

Again, if she uses any instant death bless skill, he reflects, she reflects passively, it's GG.

Neat, now show me Naoto doing this and using these abilities in that way in character. Just because they can =/= they will.

Literally every Persona character does this. This is something we've discussed for a while on the Discord, so.

So does Akechi. She passively reflects light, but even then, this assumes that Akechi will just keep using bless when it clearly doesn't work. If he sees his main elements failing, he will go for almighty assuming he doesn't just use it from the get go as I find it very dubious for us to assume which abilities a Person character will actively use in character. And I actually feel that you are overplaying her reflect and underplaying sheer power here. Akechi sees her use a reflect move, he will know to go for a move that bypasses such abilities. One reflected attack won't kill him. Just as she can instantly kill him with the bless insta-kill, Akechi can instantly kill her with one Almighty attack. Which I highly doubt is going to be something he will be so restrictive on using here.

There is no keep using bless. I never even said he would use it, I said Naoto would. If he gets hit with it once, it's over, so if she reflects it, then she reflects it passively and can even go for another spell during that time. It isn't a move, it's passive, it doesn't need to be activated. I'm not overplaying her reflect, reflections in Persona work up to Low 2-C, something Sol also has agreed on. One reflected attack will kill him, it's an instant death attack.
 
"Again, if she uses any instant death bless skill, he reflects, she reflects passively, it's GG."

Okay? And I didn't argue against this?

"Literally every Persona character does this. This is something we've discussed for a while on the Discord, so."

I didn't argue this. But this bit is pointless. Also assuming I actually have been on that Discord as much as I should've Milly please. XD

"If he gets hit with it once, it's over, so if she reflects it, then she reflects it passively and can even go for another spell during that time. It isn't a move, it's passive, it doesn't need to be activated. I'm not overplaying her reflect, reflections in Persona work up to Low 2-C, something Sol also has agreed on. One reflected attack will kill him, it's an instant death attack. "

See this is my **** up. By the way you word it, I was assuming that Naoto had multiple different Bless skills cuz I forgot that the only bless skills in P4 were Hama...big derp.

But then that brings up something else. Why assume she starts with this? What makes this more likely than Akechi using Megidolaon? Either she uses the Bless spells or he uses Almighty? One has to give in and use it first and that person is the winner.
 
Neat. Now actually read my request...Show me, Naoto using these insta-kills in the way you are saying she does. My point is that the move is more of casting the spell to effect the entire party, but the animation basically hits everyone individually with it. Meaning it should be no harder to dodge than the regular insta kill. Not that this matters at the end of the day.

I already answered it. Every Persona character can, and does do this. Kanji creates Maziodyne orbs, Yu creates Maziodyne beams, Akihiko creates Maziodyne AOE. Same spell, only edited by imagination. Literally ask Sol if you want more proof.

But then that brings up something else. Why assume she starts with this? What makes this more likely than Akechi using Megidolaon? Either she uses the Bless spells or he uses Almighty? One has to give in and use it first.

Both are RPG character's, so their first move is literally unknowable. So, it seems like this is a decisive incon between the Detective Princes.
 
Instakill spells can be easily dealt with by Goro. Remember that he's experienced in dealing with hordes of Shadows on his own, and no doubt he's run into instakill spammers on several occasions.

Makarakarn can be put up with a thought, and Guard covers his weakness to Bless. Plus, it's not like Naoto knows he's weak to Bless from the start. Goro always sets up both Makarakarn and Tetrakarn as prep when the battle starts, so once he reflects the instakill he'll know it's coming and be able to avoid it.

The game does actually treat Hama/Mudo as unavoidable, or else you could pass the accuracy check and fail the proc check, which is low enough on its own in-game. Evade Bless should definitely work on Hama spells in-universe.

All of Akechi's Almighty spells vastly overpower Naoto's. His beams will blast through hers, and Shield of Justice can only help her last for so long. As soon as Goro sees she has Hama/Mudo, he's going to use the smallest break in her spam to rain hell with Megidola(on), which will force her to focus on just surviving. She won't be able to fire back, and eventually get overwhelmed.
 
We cannot assume that during his solo expeditions, he ran into instakill spammers. Because if that is the logic that we're going from, Naoto has done the same, just she was in a party. It's far too unreliable to use an argument like that.

Makarakarn can be put up with a thought, but Naoto's reflect is passive. He has to manually use it, while Naoto can use another attack while it's reflected. If she uses Hamaon/Mahmoon, and he reflects it, and she reflects it, Goro doesn't have time to do anything else but reflect it. If she gets off a Vorpal Blade during this exchange, she can cut through him due to his durability neg. Guard can also benefit her too, if it reduces damage too. When has Goro set up both Tetra and Makarakarn before the battle starts? Yes, Naoto likely cannot tell that he's weak to bless, but does he have any reason to start with Megidolaon? It's far more likely he'll start with Bless or Curse.

When has it been unavoidable?

His spells do indeed overpower her's, but I've realized Naoto now has a new wincon: Silence, something Goro doesn't resist. If Naoto gets this off then it should be enough for Naoto to strike him down, while Yamato-Takeru blocks off any fire attack Goro may set up. Even things like Agidyne can induce burn, which would whittle down Goro. Does Goro's Status Effect Inducement resistance include poison? Because while Goro may seem to have the edge sheer AP, Naoto seems to have a bigger edge in versatility that should make up for this.
 
The difference between the two is that Goro did it alone, and for longer. You can check the Palace Ruler profiles, where it's listed exactly what Shadows appear and what moves they have. There are multiple cases of Shadows having nothing but Mudo/Hama.

Makarakarn is nigh-instant activation. It activates with a thought and has no set-up time. As long as Goro can react, he can reflect it, and again, he has Evade Bless to help with that. He also doesn't start with Megidolaon, but neither does Naoto. He does, however, have reason to switch to Megidolaon once he sees Kougaon and Eigaon do nothing.

Game mechanics treat Hama/Mudo as pure, unavoidable resistance checks to keep their displayed percentages accurate. Thus, the idea that Evade Bless/Curse don't work on their death-hax versions is also game mechanics.

What? Naoto can't inflict Silence. This is her 4-A key. Her Silence-inflicting SMG is unique to her Low 2-C key. Goro's resistance also includes poison, since that's an ailment in PQ2.

Also, speaking of things restricted to Low 2-C, I realize now that Naoto should not have access to Yamato Sumeragi at all. This key is pre-Adachi, and Yamato Sumeragi is restricted to later in the story. Hell, Naoto shouldn't be able to reflect Bless and Curse, or even use Megidolaon at this point in time. Akechi absolutely destroys with his own Megidolaon, now that we know Naoto can't actually use Shield of Justice.

This went from a difficult victory to a decisive one for Akechi.
 
My entire argument falls if she cannot use Yamato Sumeragi. We should also make note of what powers go in her P4A key. Sorry Naoto, I tried, Akechi FRA.
 
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