Armorchompy Revises Random Old Games Pt. 12 - Planescape: Torment

[Armorchompy]

Planescape: Torment is a 1999 CRPG set in the Dungeon and Dragons "Planescape" setting, I don't have space to talk about it too much cause unlike most of the games in this "series" there's actually stuff to talk about vsbw-wise here but it's like one of the best games ever made go play it right now it's really good.

So, there's two profiles to revise, The Nameless One and Ravel Puzzlewell. Updated versions, respectively, are here and here, the latter also shows the WIPs for all the party members, which I also plan to make profiles for. Couple things to address:

• Ravel goes down to 6-C because the way that multi-class levels work in 2e is different from later DND editions, profile elaborates on it. Hype-wise you can probably argue she's stronger but that's not really concrete enough as far as I can tell.
• The Nameless One's tiers, however, go way up, both because of two tier 2 statements by the Transcendent One (one possibly slightly vague but the other fairly iron-solid) and because CR scaling brings even his pre-endgame tier to tier 2 and immeasurable LS/Speed. I'm... honestly not a fan of the latter, but it's just verse scaling ig, Hecatoncheires [I hate that I spelled that right on the first try] be wack.
• I removed the "Good Incarnation" from the profile because it's basically feat-less and that allowed me to put the previous incarnations in one single tier, which makes the profile a bit less clunky.
• A lot of P&A updates happened for both of these, way too much to say here.
• I should acknowledge, I am not the biggest DND expert, but I did consult with Bambu and Tllmbrg a decent bit while making this so it should be ok.

updated my journal

 

[Tllmbrg]

Off a glance this looks good

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I hate the trend of copy-pasting overlong descriptions into the Notable Attacks/Techniques section, I hate it so so much, I would suffer ten thousand walls of text under the P&A section before falling to such heinous criminality.

other than that these profiles are damn good. Random thoughts I had while reading these:

• Ravel should have Avatar Creation based on that Multilocation description.
• Ravel has Soul Manipulation multiple times- even though they are different contexts, I think it's best to avoid mentioning the same power multiple times
• Ravel should have precognition based on her Intelligence (reminds me, I need to add it to Karsus)

On second thought, TNO probably deserves a more careful look than I am currently able to do, so take these for Ravel.

 

[Armorchompy]

I like the NA&T as is so I'll keep it, way I see it is if someone who doesn't know D&D sees the spell in P&A they might CTRL+F it and that way they'd get a good description

Ravel already had Precog, otherwise, fixed those other two things

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm aware it's just a stylistic choice, I just hate you and your kin for your choice of doing it.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Reality Warping is overdone. Why put the magic power in all the various keys. Just put it in the spell key

 

[Armorchompy]

Reality Warping is overdone.

?

Why put the magic power in all the various keys. Just put it in the spell key

Cause other stuff has magic too lol

 

[Udlmaster]

The profiles look good, well done.

I do wonder though, how do we handle 2 things:

When you max out your stats, you're compared to Gods and said to be one of the strongest/fastest/smartest/etc beings in the Multiverse

And the other is Spell slots, since it's not like Wizards in D&D can just shit out all their spells at once.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good, same with the additions proposed by Mr Bambu

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm not at all for the justifications for the Nameless One's early keys being Tier 2

Universe level+ (Stated that his power was sufficient to forge entire Planes, and later boasted to be capable of unmaking the Planes[3]),

The former isn't a universal statement. Any strong wizard can create a demiplane and importantly the original Good Incarnation made their own demi-plane in the Negative Energy plane. The second one the context is the Transcendent One expressing frustration and rage when talking to the Nameless One and their isn't an indication that he can actively nuke a universe.

For the level scaling it's also going with a heavy level of grinding. Even if you were to 100% the game you couldn't get anywhere near 57, let alone 127.

The Ultimate One being Tier 2 is fine, but I'm not for the other keys being that level.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I think unmaking the planes is probably viable for, at the very least, a possibly.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I guess. 6-B/High 6-A, possibly Low 2-C can work out for the first and semi-final keys.

 

[Udlmaster]

I think unmaking the planes is probably viable for, at the very least, a possibly.

Why am I getting deja vu...

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm not at all for the justifications for the Nameless One's early keys being Tier 2

The former isn't a universal statement. Any strong wizard can create a demiplane and importantly the original Good Incarnation made their own demi-plane in the Negative Energy plane.

Ok but he's boasting about how unmatched his power is, it makes literally no sense to assume he was talking about a demiplane, especially when he says "planes", which is a general descriptor, he doesn't say "I forged this plane with my power" or anything like this. It really doesn't make sense to assume he is talking about demiplanes rather than "full" ones, especially since as you say any strong enough wizard can do it, and by now the gang has fought such kinds of entities already [Ravel primarily].

For the level scaling it's also going with a heavy level of grinding. Even if you were to 100% the game you couldn't get anywhere near 57, let alone 127.

The Ultimate One being Tier 2 is fine, but I'm not for the other keys being that level.

The game acknowledges you reaching such levels, though. Like it literally accounts for you doing that.

Anyways, I can agree to not using Hecatoncheires scaling [partially because the game doesn't really acknowledge that kinda power, in fact that is precisely why I left a tier scaling to Ravel in the same key] though I would at least acknowledge that with a "higher" but I still think the Transcendent One and endgame Forgotten One should be solid or at minimum "likely" Low 2-C, rather than "possibly".

As a minor note, they would be High 6-A in their last key, not 6-B, given that the Transcendent One is a 30/30 mage/priest, which equals a level of 40, above the Phaethon.

The profiles look good, well done.

Thanks : )

When you max out your stats, you're compared to Gods and said to be one of the strongest/fastest/smartest/etc beings in the Multiverse

I actually asked the Torment subreddit for help regarding that, these are all the descriptions.

The most notable ones scaling-wise are "Your Strength marks you as one of the strongest men in the multiverse", "Your Dexterity would allow you to dodge an attack from death itself [definitely hyperbolic I think]", "Your Constitution marks you as one of the toughest individuals in the multiverse".

And the other is Spell slots, since it's not like Wizards in D&D can just shit out all their spells at once.

I don't know, actually. I guess I should probably describe how those work in Weaknesses. Granted at high enough levels you have a spell book so big that it might as well not matter.

 

[Udlmaster]

"Your Dexterity would allow you to dodge an attack from death itself [definitely hyperbolic I think]"

I think it's meant to imply that you can dodge attacks from Gods of Death like Thanatos

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I am in general agreement with solid use of Tier 2, I don't see a particular issue with 'em, but if Qawsedf is firm, I'm also fine with... not doing that. I lean towards Tier 2, I do not feel strongly.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Ok but he's boasting about how unmatched his power is, it makes literally no sense to assume he was talking about a demiplane, especially when he says "planes", which is a general descriptor, he doesn't say "I forged this plane with my power" or anything like this. It really doesn't make sense to assume he is talking about demiplanes rather than "full" ones,

I mean the core fundamental issue is that we see nothing that backs its claim. The sole plane we see it sustain is a black void that has no indication of size and its castle in the Negative Energy plane that's dozens of miles wide but still ultimately finite in size. The latter also requires him to constantly form a barrier as well so it doesn't get consumed.

though I would at least acknowledge that with a "higher" but I still think the Transcendent One and endgame Forgotten One should be solid or at minimum "likely" Low 2-C, rather than "possibly".

I can get behind a possibly Low 2-C but I don't think either should be solidly Tier 2.

 

[Armorchompy]

I think it's meant to imply that you can dodge attacks from Gods of Death like Thanatos

I dunno, I don't think it's strong enough evidence to jump from Rel+ to Immeasurable.

I feel like the Strength descriptor probably implies something higher than Class 5, but I don't really know if that can really be quantified.

I am in general agreement with solid use of Tier 2, I don't see a particular issue with 'em, but if Qawsedf is firm, I'm also fine with... not doing that. I lean towards Tier 2, I do not feel strongly.

I'm fine with ditching the Hecatoncheires scaling mainly because gameplay doesn't really reflect that and it's a pretty massive jump from what is actually portrayed in terms of what you fight.

I mean the core fundamental issue is that we see nothing that backs its claim. The sole plane we see it sustain is a black void that has no indication of size and its castle in the Negative Energy plane that's dozens of miles wide but still ultimately finite in size.

I mean, I'm not saying he has done it, at least as far as we know, but on the other hand I don't think that itself makes the claim unreliable, it's pretty weird to lie when you're boasting about your power to someone that you are indeed definitely superior to and moments away from killing, and he's way too smart/knowledgeable to be actually wrong about his strength. It doesn't feel like some kind of bluff or exaggeration to me, he's pretty matter-of-fact about it.

In fact as far as I can recall and I did keep an eye out for that while researching, the Transcendent One doesn't really ever lie, at least about himself, you confront him with the truth and he up and admits it. Only time he tries to bluff is when you're threatening to EE yourself, to convince you you can't do that, and that's a pretty reasonable exception.

The latter also requires him to constantly form a barrier as well so it doesn't get consumed.

That's just cause of the Negative Energy Plane's properties, you make something there it's gonna be subject to them.

 

[Shmooply]

wait we actually had profiles for them wtf
Neutral about the whole plane shenanigans, but everything else on the profiles looks good. Sadly, I'll have to reject the reworked Ravel profile since you wrote intimation instead of intimidation for the Social Influence stuff.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Definitely shouldn't scale to Thanatos for speed btw, given he isn't a god. Even if the argument existed, that'd be wrong.

 

[Qawsedf234]

it's pretty weird to lie when you're boasting about your power to someone that you are indeed definitely superior to and moments away from killing

I'm not saying he is lying, but that there's no evidence he can create a plane of infinite size rather than just a very large Demiplane.

That's just cause of the Negative Energy Plane's properties,

The point with that is that unlike a Divine Realm which is separated from the plane it inhabits, the main residence for the Transcendent One is physically accessible to the Negative Energy Plane.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm not saying he is lying, but that there's no evidence he can create a plane of infinite size rather than just a very large Demiplane.

But "Demiplane" is a specific definition, if he says "I can forge Planes with my power" then he isn't talking about that, it's a conversation between two people who know enough about the Planes to know the difference between them, and he doesn't specify it.

The point with that is that unlike a Divine Realm which is separated from the plane it inhabits, the main residence for the Transcendent One is physically accessible to the Negative Energy Plane.

Yeah, the Fortress of Regrets I don't even think is a demiplane, it's just a thing.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Anyways I think "likely Low 2-C" works better with what we have than just Tier 2 on its own.

 

[Armorchompy]

i can agree to that

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

"The Broken One"

you can definitely say that again

Profile do be looking good ayy (I don't have an opinion on the Low 2-C discussion above)

 

[Armorchompy]

i can agree to that

Alright, updated

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

and now we wait

 

[Armorchompy]

@Qawsedf234 good to apply?

 

[Qawsedf234]

@Qawsedf234 good to apply?

Only issue I see is that the Nameless One can't become a Priest, otherwise I think it looks good.

 

[Armorchompy]

wym, as in i should specify that in the weaknesses?

 

[Qawsedf234]

wym, as in i should specify that in the weaknesses?

It means this reasoning

The Transcendent One can be a level 30/30 Mage/Priest

Doesn't work. Priest isn't a class he can be. Changing it to Fighter or Thief solves the problem.

 

[Armorchompy]

Uh, I didn't make that up

 

[Qawsedf234]

Hmm. Guess it only applies to the Nameless One then.

Only other thing is see is this

Class 5 (The Transcendent One's strength is 18, which as what is likely a Large creature, would allow him to push up to 2721554 kg in the air

2,721,554 Kilograms isn't Class 5

 

[Armorchompy]

it was meant to be 2721.554, sorry

all good to post, now?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yea

 

[Armorchompy]

poggy

 

[Armorchompy]

Alright, I'm applying, gonna make a very small addition in that I think that he should have Supernatural Willpower given some of the abuse he goes through, yall feel free to tell me to remove it

Also, TNO is now in the wiki's top 20 longest pages, which I take a bit of pride in.

 

[Shmooply]

Also, TNO is now in the wiki's top 20 longest pages, which I take a bit of pride in.

We boutta be eating good tonite, western RPG chads.