Ash's Pikachu Power Scaling

[CryoTheMayo]

Just because somethings done a lot doesn't mean its not an outlier.
For Pikachu's Z-Moves to be considered 4-B, you would have to make an argument for Z-moves in general being 4-B. And we also don't accept that as far as im aware.

Pikachu's other Z-Moves don't have 4-B scaling outside of contributing half the power to overpower a Guzzlord. Its 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt is consistently depicted as vastly superior to Gigavolt Havoc and is treated as a massive upgrade to it in-universe, at least as far as I can tell.

I think at least High 7-A, likely higher is most reasonable. We can confirm Pikachu is at least high-end High 7-A and can make an at least 6-B flinch from a Thunderbolt, so it's definitely reasonable to say it's likely higher than High 7-A.

As for its other scaling, I think the best we can do is just making Pikachu 4-B with 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt, seeing as it one-shot Guardian of Alola and Nihilego with it. There is argument for Pikachu to be 4-B with other Z-Moves such as Gigavolt Havoc but I honestly think that topic, in itself, should be separated from upgrading to at least High 7-A and 4-B with 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I pretty much agree with all of this since nothing can really be done about the Tapus and UBs' wack power scaling. So, to confirm, we're talking: "At least High 7-A, likely higher, higher with Z-Moves or when absorbing electricity, 4-B with 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt"?

In that case, now what? I'm pretty new to the VS Battles Wiki, so do we just wait for an admin or someone to approve this or?

 

[Ionliosite]

Yes, you need admin approval before doing anything with the stats of a profile.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Alright, gotcha.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Cal has already posted here, so we'll see if he pops in later and what he thinks about approving this.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Is there any way to draw attention to this thread so we can get approval (or not) for this? It's been almost 2 weeks lol

 

[Ionliosite]

Yes, call administrators knowledgable on Pokémon

 

[CloverDragon03]

I think Cal would be good, and Cal's already posted on here as said before. How would you call an admin though? As I've said before, I'm new to this whole thing

 

[Ionliosite]

You go to their walls and ask them to come here, that's how you call them.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Welp... it's been almost 2 months and nothing's happened in terms of tier changes (yes, I did go to ask Cal for help)

So um... frick

 

[Dragopentling]

Rip

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Pikachu can't effect D-Max/G-Max Pokemon, but his raw power was capable of clashing with Leon's Charizard (albeit losing end) and was able to heavily resist Charizard's Flamethrower with Thunderbolt. Assuming Leon wasn't holding back, it seems pretty reasonable to assume the gap between their aces is less than a stomp gap, due to Pikachu's ability to recover from attacks, ability to resist clashes, etc.

Leon is also officially the strongest trainer in the world, in the anime, due to defeating Lance in the World Tournament, and arguments were made IIRC that all Champion-level trainers should be 4-B and, Leon stands at the absolute pinnacle.

Overall, Ash's Pikachu (and his Alola team, due to keeping up beforehand) should all be scaled up to Champion-levels, IMO.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Leon was very likely not holding back, as he even said after the battle that battles are no fun when they're not serious, implying that he was going all-out. Plus, it makes sense for the gap between Ash and Leon is less than a stomp gap since Ash himself is now a Champion.

I don't know about all Champions being 4-B, that's a topic for another time, but the stuff about 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt still stands, but I think the tiering should be updated, especially to match the fact that Pikachu can Gigantamax. In conclusion, what I think it should be is:

At least High 7-A, likely higher. Higher with Z-Moves, Gigantamax, or when absorbing electricity. 4-B with 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Reasonable enough, yes. The gap between Ash and Leon is much smaller than the gap between an E4 and their respective Champion, then.

• Flint stomped Ash's Pikachu with Infernape, but Pikachu endured many blows before going down (larger gap than Ash and Leon, due to Pikachu not matching well in clashes)

• Cynthia defeated Flint with two of her pokemon taken out (same gap as DP Ash and Tobias)

• Alain defeated Malva's ace

• Diantha defeated Wikstrom's Mega Scizor with her Mega Gardevoir's Moonblast, despite a type disadvantage her Gardevoir defeated the ace of an E4 with seemingly great ease.

• XY Ash = Alain, so XY Ash is akin to E4-level but the gap between him and champions like Diantha and Cynthia should be akin to DP Ash and Tobias

• SM Ash grew far stronger over the course of Alola (consistently stated in-universe) to the extent that he went from being blitzed by Tapu Koko to matching Tapu Koko's speed

• PM Ash's gap with the World Champion is lesser than the gap between an E4 and Champion

Therefore the scaling chain should go something like:

Leon >/= Lance > Diantha ~ Cynthia ~ Steven ~ Alder > PM Ash > SM Ash >> Malva = Alain = XY Ash = Flint >> DP Ash

We can't really gauge how large the gap between Ash and the other Champions is, but it at least isn't a curbstomp gap, due to Ash's Pikachu holding up against Leon's Charizard, when Leon is the strongest champion.

Considering Ash's goal is to enter the World Tournament and defeat Leon, it's very likely that he will grow much stronger over the course of PM, and possibly be capable of challenging Leon properly. Man, it's weird to imagine Ash reaching the level of the strongest trainer after so many years.

 

[CloverDragon03]

First off, yes, that would be insane to think about. Second, the only think I have against this scaling is Ash's fight with Diantha. This scaling seems to be relative to Ash's Pikachu, but Ash's Greninja actually overwhelmed Diantha's Gardevoir and arguably could've won if they didn't pass out.

Besides this, the scaling seems spot on

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Later in the episode, when Team Rocket captures Diantha's Gardevoir, Diantha orders her Gardevoir to stop restraining, and she went from being unable to break TR's restraints to shattering them easily. It seems like Diantha was holding back against Ash.

Although, it was Imperfect Ash-Greninja that held up against Diantha's suppressed Mega Gardevoir. Ash-Greninja's complete power might hold up similarly against her Gardevoir.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I know about that "use your full power" statement, but at the same time, Gardevoir seemed to have to play defensively for most of the fight since, well... Ash-Greninja was going sicko mode on it. Heck, she even looked genuinely shocked to see that Greninja's Water Shuriken overpowered Gardevoir's Shadow Ball.

But that's a topic for another time.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well it seems like we're in agreement on a buff for Ash's Pikachu. We just need an admin to approve it...

 

[Dragopentling]

Okay, I got a bit lost here. So what was approved and what was disapproved here in this CRT?

 

[Ionliosite]

AFAIK, the only disapproved thing is trying to scale any pre-S&M character to 4-B (such as the XY and DP cast).

 

[CloverDragon03]

Idk about that, since Alain's Charizard tussled with 50% Zygarde (who's 5-B, likely 4-B) and Ash and Sawyer are roughly equal, along with Diantha, Lysandre, etc.

But I think for now, we shouldn't worry about that. I put my idea for what Pikachu should be bumped up to based on what we've discussed. Do y'all think it's fine? Just in case, it was:

At least High 7-A, likely higher. Higher with Z-Moves, Gigantamax, or when absorbing electricity. 4-B with 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt

 

[Dragopentling]

That seems fine to me, tbh.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Would it be high-end High 7-A tho? (Need to know so I can see if it would be Large Mountain level or Large Mountain level+). I think we said high-end High 7-A but I don't remember

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Would it be high-end High 7-A tho? (Need to know so I can see if it would be Large Mountain level or Large Mountain level+). I think we said high-end High 7-A but I don't remember

Pikachu overpowered a TR Tyranitar and Gyarados' combined Hyper Beam with a Thunderbolt early into PM. Tyranitar and Gyarados are considered comparable to Charizard's feat of melting mountains, which is 790.31 Megatons.

If we assume an individual Hyper Beam is equivalent to Charizard's 790.31 Megatons, that means Pikachu's Thunderbolt has a higher AP than 1580.62 Megatons, or 1.5 Gigatons. High 7-A ranges from 1 Gigaton to 4.3 Gigatons. so Pikachu is reasonably mid High 7-A with its ordinary attacks.

Thunderbolt > Duel Hyper Beam = 1.5 Gigatons = High 7-A >> Hyper Beam = 790.31 Megatons = 7-A

 

[Dragopentling]

That's probably an outlier, but then again, I have to keep reminding myself that this is a particularly swole Pikachu we're talking about.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

That's probably an outlier, but then again, I have to keep reminding myself that this is a particularly swole Pikachu we're talking about.

It isn't really an outlier for PM, Pikachu has only been defeated once thus far, by Leon's Charizard. It struggled against an Ancient Golurk, as well, but that was more of due to Golurk's Ghost/Ground typing enabling it to negate all of Pikachu's moves barring Iron Tail. Ash's Dragonite easily defeated that Golurk.

It's also worth noting that in SM, Pikachu went from being blitzed and stomped by Tapu Koko to outspeeding and overpowering it. He's grown WAY stronger over the course of SM.

 

[Dragopentling]

I mean, he's also exchanged blows with Zeraora and some ultra beasts, too, if I remembered correctly.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Certainly, but people can always claim those are outliers. What isn't an outlier, is that a fundamental plot element of SM was Ash and Pikachu's growth in Alola. Post-Alola Pikachu is objectively FAR stronger than Pre-Alola as that was the plot from Day 1, and hasn't been contradicted by PM.

 

[CloverDragon03]

So basically, this tier buff is agreed on? Now we need it approved by an admin... but no one came

 

[Ionliosite]

For the record, by no means should we upgrade his 7-A key, just make a new key for Sun & Moon onwards, because otherwise, this creates the same retroactive scaling problem as before.

 

[CloverDragon03]

There's no retroactive scaling problem though?

 

[Ionliosite]

I pointed out there was one above, but ok.

 

[Dragopentling]

The Blue Orb key is separate due to an item causing the tier difference. In SM's case, it's a Z Crystal. I don't see any problem making a third key....just how are we gonna name it, though?

 

[Ionliosite]

Logically, the base key would be split into "Orginal Series-XY Series" and "Sun & Moon Series onwards"

 

[CloverDragon03]

Oh that one. Idk about that, since the profile for base Pikachu (without Blue Orb) seems to be a culmination of all its feats from the Original Series all the way to Sword and Shield

 

[Eminiteable]

Bump this should be put in place.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Alright, a third key sounds good. We could split it up as (like Ionliosite said):

Original Series - XY Series | Sun & Moon Series onwards | Blue Orb absorbed

 

[Eminiteable]

Sounds good, get it put in.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I want to, but on two occasions, I tried calling Cal over (he's an admin that's posted on here before) but to no avail

 

[Eminiteable]

Give then time anything after a week is too long and look for other admins or staff.