Azur Lane Revisions Número 1: Ships Are More Than Just Cute Sexy Girls

[Zencha9]

Yeah, I don't think that qualifies as Abstract Existence and that Vietthai is making sense.

can you elaborate ?

 

[Ogbunabali]

Shipgirls' Existence

I would've been fine with Abstract Existence here, if the text didn't explicitly say that they are physical manifestations.

For ships to be able to manifest as humans... the Wisdom Cube allows the collections of various feelings, emotions, and images from an unspecified number of people to take on a physical form... in other words, a "collective body," nya.

In order to qualify for Abstract Existence you need to be, well, abstract. The text says that this wisdom cube is creating physical objects using the feelings of people, which would make it Subjective Reality for the cube.

Though type 8 Immortality seems good.

Spatial Manipulation

Mirror Seas Metaphysical Neo-Platonic Stuff (Jajaj)

Seems fine.

• Reality Warping
• Pocket Reality Manipulation
• Causality Manipulation (Reenactment and all that crazy stuff)
• Information Manipulation, and Law Manipulation (Since they can hack each other to gain access to the power of the Mirror Sea)

Didn't see evidence for these things in the OP.

 

[Zencha9]

I would've been fine with Abstract Existence here, if the text didn't explicitly say that they are physical manifestations.

yeah that's why we said it's type 2 because type 2 are physical manifestations

 

[Vietthai96]

Though type 8 Immortality seems good.

Gacha roll the characters is just a gameplay feature, no lore indicated this as shipgirls resurrect themselves. Also nothing suggest shipgirls can continue to rely on human emotion, etc.. to live and return. They just...well can be born from it. And even if we take roll the character at face value, it is just....clone of shipgirls with the same appearance and personality, i doubt this kind of thing is type 8

Seems fine.

uhmmmm, is this indicated that you accept Conceptual Manipulation?? or something else???

 

[Antvasima]

What Ogbunabali and Medeus have accepted is probably fine to apply.

 

[Ogbunabali]

because type 2 are physical manifestations

Since when?

Gacha roll the characters is just a gameplay feature, no lore indicated this as shipgirls resurrect themselves. Also nothing suggest shipgirls can continue to rely on human emotion, etc.. to live and return. They just...well can be born from it. And even if we take roll the character at face value, it is just....clone of shipgirls with the same appearance and personality, i doubt this kind of thing is type 8

This quote seems to imply it

In theory, even if there was a ship that never existed, as long as peoples' beliefs in their form and function were strong enough, we would be able to manifest them as well, nya!

Unless it's contradicted of something.

uhmmmm, is this indicated that you accept Conceptual Manipulation?? or something else???

Yeah?

The quotes are pretty direct. If they are able to actually control that foundation or whatever it is, then I don't see why not.

 

[Antvasima]

What Ogbunabali and Medeus have accepted is probably fine to apply.

And what they have rejected is not fine to apply, of course.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Shipgirl existence are kinda weird, they are said to have collective body but required to be manifest physically, but if AE are disagreed then i'm fine with it.

@Ogbunabali agree with Immortality type 8 but @Vietthai96 still against it. I think a "Possible" might work but if it not, we shall leave it out for now.

Conceptual Manpulation is agreed, but i believe it is used as subtle ability to manifest phenomena rather than offensive ability.

Spatial Manipulation is agreed.

Didn't see evidence for these things in the OP.

Pocket Reality Manipulation come from that they can manipulate Mirror Sea, a pocket space where the user have total control of everything inside.

Reality Warping is already covered as Pocket Reality Manipulation

Causality Manipulation, Information Manipulation, and Law Manipulation were rejected by most people as well.

 

[Vietthai96]

The quotes are pretty direct. If they are able to actually control that foundation or whatever it is, then I don't see why not.

I don't think so, since when did we give Conceptual Manipulation that easy. They don't even have a single supporting feat. While Siren did create Mirror Sea which is a Pocket Dimension using some kind of device, there is no feat of them manipulating it conceptual level, all of the feat is just subtle change of the reality inside the Mirror Sea like the changing in weather.

Unless it's contradicted of something.

Currently nothing contradicted and nothing supported it. About feats, in-game lore currently no one die to confirm the theory because the game itself contradicted lore on many level. Kirov said that in order to make shipgirl data still needed and insert it into the wisdom cube, human emotion and belief allow them to take human form, but human still need to build them. Akagi statement in Visistor Dyed in Red is about making clone that at first they act like a mindless being, but capable of evolving and start acting like the original; but anyway according to the lore itself they still guessing their own existence.

So what is your call???

 

[Jamesthetaker]

In Midway Showdown, most of the Sakura Empire ships (Akagi, Kage, Souryuu, Hiryuu) are sunked along with Yorktown, and Hood at beginning of the game.

In Akagi stoyline, the playable version of her talked about Midway battle above, she was referencing back to her time of worshing God and getting on abhorrent power; specifically the event of Visistor Dyed in Red, which happened after Midway battle, when talking about "Soul" and "Sanctuary".

Spoiler: Soul and Sanctuary

Zuikaku: I thought you already sank in Midway... Just what are you people?!

Akagi: We are what you see. In this Sanctuary bestowed upon us by the Creator, we wield unlimited power.

Akagi: That is, as long as we continue sacrificing exquisite souls... Giggle...

Spoiler: Akagi Storyline

Graf Zeppelin: It was back in Midway... You and the Commander reenacted that legendary battle there.

Akagi: Continuing the war, hurting your allies, and searching for beings with the potential to Awaken, all just to get your hands on that abhorrent power...

Akagi: That "me" who followed "God"... whether she's real or not is just a possibility.

Graf Zeppelin: A "possibility"...?

Akagi: We are 2 sides of the same coin... Born of the same stuff, my own existence is also a "possibility."

Akagi: The moment I met you in battle, that too was a "possibility" of sorts. As is my sitting here enjoying a nice cold beer with you...

Akagi: All because of the "possibility" that I met the Commander who freed me from the "Sirens."

This heavily implied, if not, outright confirmed that this Akagi is the same one who die in the Midway battle and somehow manage to come back.

 

[Vietthai96]

It got retcon her death bro, same with Hood and Bismarck, and Jean Bart, who later was revealed to be "recover". And don't let me remind you the mess of storyline because of Yostar English localization which somewhat change the entire meaning of the lore compare to the Chinese one

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Where did it stated that they were recovered?

 

[Vietthai96]

Where did it stated that they were recovered?

What, bro it is in Richelieu event, Jean Bart despite her event told that she somewhat sunk, later in her sister event it is said that she in the state of recovering, and Bismarck was hinted to be so, as F.D.G was hint to replace Bismarck while she doing something else

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Only Jean Bart and likely Bismarck were said to recovered. I'm talking about Akagi specifically, she come back through her death at Midway battle, which she refer that version as a possibility.

 

[Vietthai96]

Only Jean Bart and likely Bismarck were said to recovered. I'm talking about Akagi specifically, she come back through her death at Midway battle, which she refer that version as a possibility.

which she refer that version as a possibility
Did you somehow miss this, it is mean it just a possibility, she not even death in the first place.

Edit: also in Operation Siren, Akagi did faced a illusion of Enterprise which both of them said about 5s of fate or something (refer to Midway Battle), so that mean Akagi experienced that battle and still live.
To be honest event story retcon a lot of thing in campaign story

 

[Jamesthetaker]

She did, which is why she known about the Midway battle in first place, even previous event make a note of her death (Zuikaku)

 

[Vietthai96]

Right now we can divide the story into 2 continuity, Campaign story which have Battle of Denmark Strait as a prologue and the Pacific Theater as the main on. Event story contain event lore and operation siren lore which heavily contradict campaign story. Well busy now so i will return later

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I don't see the point of separate them into different continuity. The main story are just 4 chapters with some tutorial, while the events and Operation Siren pick up where it left. For example, Scherzo of Iron and Blood take place after Battle of Denmark Strait and the stoy goes on.

Hell, i would even say events are our most reliable storyline so far since campaign barely progress at now. Operation Siren are somewhat in-between since it took place when two sides make a truce. Aside from the 2019 anime, they've estalished a non-liner storyline which every events are loosely connected to each other, proving contradiction are harder than the opposite.

 

[Vietthai96]

No, what i mean is because of how story progress, we can even separate them into different line.

Well this debate is fun

 

[Zencha9]

Since when?

I dunno ever since i knew of digimon and smt battles Because the ones that have type 2 ae were always treated as a physical beings/manifestations that can keep on reviving due to their concepts/ideas
Don't know if that got yeeted Because i don't keep up with the forum that much but it doesn't seem to be the case judging from the examples in the page

 

[Jamesthetaker]

No, what i mean is because of how story progress, we can even separate them into different line.

Well this debate is fun

I don't think it is necessary, considering most of shipgirls doesn't have tremendous power boost or new abilities, combat experience wise.

 

[Vietthai96]

I don't think it is necessary, considering most of shipgirls doesn't have tremendous power boost or new abilities, combat experience wise.

No, i don't want to separate, just that the story progression is extremely bad that we can even separate it but right now to be honest their power was not even came from main campaign. I blame Manjuu and Yostar for this

Any way at this point we will definitely going back and forth. So the best compromise is a possible Immortality type 8, no solid evidences for it right now, we can change it solid if the story revealing more, no need to hurry. However i will not accept Conceptual Manipulation, the proof for it is extremely bad, combat applicable or not

 

[Zencha9]

for the Immortality type 8 stuff do shipgirls have souls ?

 

[Vietthai96]

for the Immortality type 8 stuff do shipgirls have souls ?

unknown, according to Akagi in the stupid event Visitor Dyed in Red said that some clone normally act like a mindless, programed "machine" can evolve to have personality and emotion, and act like the original; but that it, the verse doesn't said anything about soul, most of the time they said about technology here and there; Shipgirls themselves doesn;t even know much about Wisdom Cube, according to them, only Siren and the Ashes actually know about it. I can dive more into the lore itself if you want more

 

[Zencha9]

nah i think it's fine

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Yeah, i think Possible Immortality type 8 is fine right now.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I don't think so, since when did we give Conceptual Manipulation that easy. They don't even have a single supporting feat. While Siren did create Mirror Sea which is a Pocket Dimension using some kind of device, there is no feat of them manipulating it conceptual level, all of the feat is just subtle change of the reality inside the Mirror Sea like the changing in weather.

So the only argument you have against it is because you think it's given "easily"? That's kind of a weak counter point.

Also Conceptual Manipulation is only as strong as what it's been shown to do. If the only thing they can do with it is change the weather, than changing the weather is the only thing they can do. Not to mention changing reality is a supporting feat.

Currently nothing contradicted and nothing supported it. About feats, in-game lore currently no one die to confirm the theory because the game itself contradicted lore on many level. Kirov said that in order to make shipgirl data still needed and insert it into the wisdom cube, human emotion and belief allow them to take human form, but human still need to build them. Akagi statement in Visistor Dyed in Red is about making clone that at first they act like a mindless being, but capable of evolving and start acting like the original; but anyway according to the lore itself they still guessing their own existence.

To be fair the quote is kind of interpretative, so you do have a point. If they still need to build them and they aren't even sure to be the same being, then the Immortality should go.

Pocket Reality Manipulation come from that they can manipulate Mirror Sea, a pocket space where the user have total control of everything inside.

Reality Warping is already covered as Pocket Reality Manipulation

Causality Manipulation, Information Manipulation, and Law Manipulation were rejected by most people as well.

I see. Well, Pocket Reality Manipulation alone should cover that then, no?

 

[Vietthai96]

So the only argument you have against it is because you think it's given "easily"? That's kind of a weak counter point.

Also Conceptual Manipulation is only as strong as what it's been shown to do. If the only thing they can do with it is change the weather, than changing the weather is the only thing they can do. Not to mention changing reality is a supporting feat.


To be fair the quote is kind of interpretative, so you do have a point. If they still need to build them and they aren't even sure to be the same being, then the Immortality should go.

1. Well i know it is a weak point, but i still mention it because i don't remember our wiki give Conceptual Manipulation that easy considering it is a controversal ability. Sorry if i make a bad impression.
2. Well to be honest, the evidences is kinda extremely vague thus can be interpreted as flowery and metaphor, while i can understanding conceptual manipulation is just another reality changing ability, but i remember it more strict. But well if you still accept the ability. Actually, i listed this ability in my opinion as Property Manipulation rather than Conceptual Manipulation as the former is more fitting for what Siren have shown, and nothing here show they manipulating it at abstract concept, but well Property Manipulation is not a thing, yet.
3. About Immortality, yes like you said it is up to interpretation, thus i propose at the highest conclusion is a possible rating rather than outright solid one. Becauae right now no actual death in the game to confirm, those other one is a bunch of clone that at first very mindless but their cognitive ability can evolve to have more complex feeling and emotion thus allow them to act more and more like the original. About new ship like Research Ship, they need to have Data and Blueprint, insert them into the Cube and human belief allow them to take form of human girl/woman. Other than that, like the Operation Siren File i posted in my first or second comment on this thread, show that the cube is just another energy source and used as fuel, only specific ships like those WWII ships can turn into girl/woman. But right now the lore is not too specific about this, everything still up to the air, so it mean that right now everything about shipgirls existence is a headcannon and theories by shipgirls themselves

So yeah that the thing, what is your opinion??

 

[Ogbunabali]

3. About Immortality, yes like you said it is up to interpretation, thus i propose at the highest conclusion is a possible rating rather than outright solid one. Becauae right now no actual death in the game to confirm, those other one is a bunch of clone that at first very mindless but their cognitive ability can evolve to have more complex feeling and emotion thus allow them to act more and more like the original. About new ship like Research Ship, they need to have Data and Blueprint, insert them into the Cube and human belief allow them to take form of human girl/woman. Other than that, like the Operation Siren File i posted in my first or second comment on this thread, show that the cube is just another energy source and used as fuel, only specific ships like those WWII ships can turn into girl/woman. But right now the lore is not too specific about this, everything still up to the air, so it mean that right now everything about shipgirls existence is a headcannon and theories by shipgirls themselves

I don't know the verse, but if what you say is true, then I don't think Immortality should be added. At best it sounds like a very conditional possibility or some kind of cloning even.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I see. Well, Pocket Reality Manipulation alone should cover that then, no?

Yeah, just PRM alone already covered most of phenomenon in Mirror Sea. Specific abilities inside Mirror Sea would be another thread, i think.

 

[Vietthai96]

Yeah, just PRM alone already covered most of phenomenon in Mirror Sea. Specific abilities inside Mirror Sea would be another thread, i think.

We can including those ability in the description of Pocket Reality Manipulation, that way reader can understand that those abilities are limited within the scope of the Mirror Sea

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Pretty much.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

I would've been fine with Abstract Existence here, if the text didn't explicitly say that they are physical manifestations.

I still have my issues with saying that the physical manifestations are, well, the true Shipgirl. As the statements says, those bodies are only manifestations that helps the true being appear like a physical being, but the true ship is actually that collective idea that mankind has over it. Look again the whole statement, when they talk about the ship itself, they aren't referred to as the body itself, but as the idea:

I'll explain, nya~! Decades ago, with the appearance of the Sirens and the "Wisdom Cube," ships gained the ability to manifest in human form, nya!
Although the technology that has come with the Wisdom Cubes has allowed us to hold our ground against the Sirens, that alone will not allow us to make any breakthroughs, nya...
For ships to be able to manifest as humans... the Wisdom Cube allows the collections of various feelings, emotions, and images from an unspecified number of people to take on a physical form... in other words, a "collective body," nya.

That's why the physical body isn't known as the ship itself, but rather as a manifestation, which going with the main definition of the word:

an event, action, or object that clearly shows or embodies something, especially a theory or an abstract idea.

Even so, there are other statements implying that Shipgirls are more metaphysical than physical, like this one:

In theory, even if there was a ship that never existed, as long as peoples' beliefs in their form and function were strong enough, we would be able to manifest them as well, nya!

And other ones when it's clearly stated that the ship is an embodiment of thoughts:

(I am a weapon... the embodiment of humanity's thoughts, the wishes for which they fight.)

Also @Jamesthetaker (srry for the spontaneous ping) quoted other statements about ships relying on human perception and notation on them.

So well, I still think that the Abstract Existence is pretty clear here, and that it could be type 1, but welp, I'm content with type 2 as well.

Regarding this:

Since when?

Well, the explanation in the page pretty infers it, because the type 1 is for true abstract and incorporeal being, which makes them invulnerable against attacks that doesn't aim to the abstraction itself, while type 2 is for beings that are abstract, but also can still be directly damaged by attacks that doesn't aim to the abstraction itself.

Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it.

That seems to imply that, in fact, a physical being can have this type of AE, because, while is still a physical creature, it has a direct connection with the abstraction itself (because it's an incarnation of it), and thus, you can't really destroy it permanently.
With this I'm not saying that Shipgirls should be totally physical (I already leave my thoughts about that previously), but I just wanted to point out that thing.

About all the Immortality part, even if we assume that all those ships didn't sunk at all, or that the gameplay can't be used here, it's still pretty direct that they has a connection with the beliefs and ideals of mankind, reason of why they can manifest in first place, even if they lack of a history or doesn't exist at all.

In theory, even if there was a ship that never existed, as long as peoples' beliefs in their form and function were strong enough, we would be able to manifest them as well, nya!

And also, responding to this comment:

About Immortality, yes like you said it is up to interpretation, thus i propose at the highest conclusion is a possible rating rather than outright solid one. Becauae right now no actual death in the game to confirm, those other one is a bunch of clone that at first very mindless but their cognitive ability can evolve to have more complex feeling and emotion thus allow them to act more and more like the original.

While this can still be considered something quite "interpretative", it's somehow pretty much supported by many statements and explanations in-verse, even if they doesn't directly says that(?). I can understand that you want to play it safe and leave it as a possibility at least, but in this case there's no reason to make more low-ends. And going with Occam's Razor principle:

Plurality should not be posited without necessity.

Or in other words:

The simplest explanation is usually the best one.

And in this case, the most simple and quite direct explanation is that, in fact, Shipgirls relies on collective perception and ideals.

 

[Vietthai96]

I still have my issues with saying that the physical manifestations are, well, the true Shipgirl. As the statements says, those bodies are only manifestations that helps the true being appear like a physical being, but the true ship is actually that collective idea that mankind has over it. Look again the whole statement, when they talk about the ship itself, they aren't referred to as the body itself, but as the idea:

While this can still be considered something quite "interpretative", it's somehow pretty much supported by many statements and explanations in-verse, even if they doesn't directly says that(?). I can understand that you want to play it safe and leave it as a possibility at least, but in this case there's no reason to make more low-ends. And going with Occam's Razor principle:

Or in other words:

And in this case, the most simple and quite direct explanation is that, in fact, Shipgirls relies on collective perception and ideals.

1. Actually that is your way of interpretation on the statement, because nothing stated or there is any feat prove that their current appearance you see is just the avatar while their true body is here and there. Right now, according to both statement from Akashi and Kirov themselves, human belief allow them to manifest as human woman/girl, but at the same time they still need to be build according to Kirov who speculate that in order to "build" shipgirl you still need to insert data (either it is some form of history, combat experiences, etc...), and lastly, all of the information on shipgirls existence is not even clear in the game itself. So we should blast this Abstract Existence out of the way for now

2. First this kind of ability is controversal, second we don't just use the way like hey it is the most simple answer so just give it. In short it is not about most simple, but rather wanking, we don't go with it is the most simple and direct; if a statement, a feat can be interpreted in too many ways, you can't just give it the high-end one, not only it is a way to wank character, it is also unfair to the other verse those being treated differently.

The simplest explanation is usually the best one - there is no such a thing as the best one; it can be the best to you, but not the other @.@.

Also you can't ping member, only staff can do that

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

1. Actually that is your way of interpretation on the statement, because nothing stated or there is any feat prove that their current appearance you see is just the avatar while their true body is here and there. Right now, according to both statement from Akashi and Kirov themselves, human belief allow them to manifest as human woman/girl, but at the same time they still need to be build according to Kirov who speculate that in order to "build" shipgirl you still need to insert data (either it is some form of history, combat experiences, etc...), and lastly, all of the information on shipgirls existence is not even clear in the game itself. So we should blast this Abstract Existence out of the way for now

Well how do you have an Abstract Existence "feat"? Of course, that can be my interpretation, but that doesn't mean I'm inherently wrong, because what I'm doing is supporting my theory with evidence and context that helps me support what I'm saying, and none of them, personally, was really refuted nor counter-argued, at least from my perspective. Answering to the other part, well, inserting data and such doesn't really debunks any of my previous points, because data itself can be treated as something abstract, and/or in this case, that data itself can be all human perception towards the ship in question. Those statements doesn't really contradict each other, and whether they must be built or not doesn't prove or disprove anything, since the construction itself would be that process of manifesting the physical body for the general idea.
Btw, I don't want to take out the card of giving superiority of a statement towards other, but just in case, Kirov's statement, as you said, is an speculation, while Akashi's statement is a direct explanation. Don't want to say that Akashi is more reliable than Kirov, as I think they have reason in their own ways, but anyway, I'm just leaving that here.
Finally, unknown or not, it doesn't mean we have to disprove what we already have. I think I already said that before, but with all the statements collected until now, there is a safe and solid conclusion to be made, and if something has to change in a future, so be it.

2. First this kind of ability is controversal, second we don't just use the way like hey it is the most simple answer so just give it. In short it is not about most simple, but rather wanking, we don't go with it is the most simple and direct; if a statement, a feat can be interpreted in too many ways, you can't just give it the high-end one, not only it is a way to wank character, it is also unfair to the other verse those being treated differently.

I'm not saying that we have to go easily with any other case to say that X or Y thing is Type 8 Immo and blablabla. I know this is always a case-by-case scenario. However, if there are pretty direct statements and interpretations in-verse that points towards that point of view, going with what is the most simple and solid of the scenarios is the most reliable option. It's not a case of wanking, is a case of logic, because, as the principle says, sometimes the most simplest is the most correct. Also, honestly I don't understand that axiom of "high-ends are unreliable, they are only there to wank". I mean, I know that sometimes the high-end is really exaggerated, but that can't be said about the low/mid-ends? Because there's always the other side of the coin, y'know? Saying that all high-ends are bad because there can be ones that are clear exaggeration is a fallacy, and something I can also say for the low-ends, and even mid-ends. It's not going always towards the high-end, it's going to the most possible one.
Also taking the card of other verses doesn't work, because each one has its own context and explanations. I'm not here to argue what is fair and what is not for Azur Lane and other realities. I'm here to argue my point of view and what I think it's correct.

The simplest explanation is usually the best one - there is no such a thing as the best one; it can be the best to you, but not the other @.@.

Correct, and because of that I'm debating in first place, to explain why my explanation is the most solid and the best one.

Also you can't ping member, only staff can do that

a

 

[Antvasima]

So is somebody willing to apply what our staff have accepted here?

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Well, I can, but I would appreciate if someone can give me a list of things already accepted to apply.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Regardless, from what I recall was accepted, then profiles should look something like this (yeah, not so much changes anyway)

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I can, but I would appreciate if someone can give me a list of things already accepted to apply.

Thank you. Is somebody here willing to help with this?

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I can do it, just give me some time since i'm kinda busy at the moment.