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Azur Lane Revisions Número 1: Ships Are More Than Just Cute Sexy Girls

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Hecatia_Gaming said:
Ok so, I'm going to summarize the main points for and against my proposal, and provide some counterarguments towards them.

Ships Are Abstract Entities

The reasons to say that Shipgirls can be treated as abstract entities are the following:

1) They are consistently mentioned as manifestations of ideas and human thoughts.

2) It was constantly stated that they rely on human perception and beliefs, being able to manifest thanks to this, even if they don't have a story at all.

3) Are stated to be a collection of feelings, images, and emotions, gaining a physical body.

4) Directly stated to be the embodiment of human thoughts and wishes.

5) The Wisdom Cubes, which are basically what gives birth to Shipgirls, are said to manifest humanity's collective consciousness into Ships. This is also supported by the fact that their physical bodies are called as a collective body, implying that the ship by itself is that abstract collection of ideas.

These are the main reasons for the AE. Although my initial proposal was to argue type 1, it was mostly seem as type 2, which I think it's more solid and consistent for now.

Ships Cannot Be Abstract

So the general arguments to not accept this are that:

1) All the statements about embodying ideals and such are just metaphors and flowery language, as they seem vague enough to give something more solid.

2) Later in the game, it seems like there were some contradictions and retcons that invalidates the initial premise mentioned by characters such as Akashi.

3) There are Operation Siren's files, which debunks any argument for abstractions, as they are implying that Shipgirls and everything related to Wisdom Cubes are phyhsical.

Maybe there are more, but from the recall these are the 3 main reasons to not accept the AE.

Now with my counterarguments:

-1: There's no solid reason to say that all the statements are rethorics. Contextually, it's illogical that they somehow would not tell you the truth when they talk about general studies about Siren Technology, which is worse if we consider that 1) We are in an investigation, so metaphors doesn't fit at all in it, and 2) Both statements comes from knowleadgable characters well-versed in all that scientifical stuff. This is more important with Akashi, who is in charge to give you the general knowledge about Ships.

-2: There aren't any real contradictions in the game. If you analyze better all those statements that, supposedly, contradicts the first idea, then you would realize that all of them are correlated, and, in fact, supports more my general proposal. For example, the thing of inserting data into the Ships to manifest them, which is basically the same process of using humanity's consciousness to manifest the Ship (and by the way, it seems that in AL data is treated as something more metaphysical. See the case of souls being referred to as "quantum data" in Ink Stained Steel Sakura)

-3: Same with the previous point. Operation Siren doesn't contradicts nothing at all. As I mentioned in my first response, being phyisical or not doesn't really affects Ships in this context, because even if we follow that assumption, it doesn't negates what we already have. For example, it was used as a support of this idea a file that explains how the Wisdom Cubes are from a meteorite or something like that. As I said before, the very statement used for this literally explains how those meteorites are different than the usual physical one, being even something that always existed and potentially caused the Big Bang. And to put the cherry on the cake, the same file says that these meteorites have a special nature, being essentially different to a real physical one. So no, this can't be used to negate anything.
Also there is what James said about Operation Siren, which seem to be set in a different timeline, so yeah.

So well that's basically a summary of the discussion until now.
Click to expand...
Personally, i still have my cent on Abstract Existence so i will add my argument here:

The act of "building" shipgirls here are using Wisdom Cube to manifest them into reality. So yes, shipgirls required to be build but not in a tradition sense because they are essentially being summoned.

While it is true that the exact nature of shipgirl still shrouded in mystery, most statements so far have point out an similier theory in humanity's perception and thought being extracted into the Cube that created them. Even when you take Shinano's word into consideration, it still collided with previous statements which mean everyone at least grasp the basis of their own existence not something they mutter out of nowhere.

Operation Siren File told the event prior to the game, back when humans don't known much about Wisdome Cube and were only experimenting. Nothing from it contradict game material, in fact, i would say the opposite since the current shipgirls gained knowledge and done more research on Wisdom Cube, therefore, the latter are reliable source to taken from.

As for Abstract Existence matter itself, based on my researching on several crts and profile, Type 2 is for abstract beings that can be affected in normal sense without needing NPI or Concept Manipulation:
  • Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it.
The bold part basically sum up and shipgirl fit the requirement.
 
So the shipgirls are physical embodiments of abstract concepts that constantly regenerate as long as those concepts exist? Please elaborate.
 
Jamesthetaker said:
I'm gonna compile all the evidence of Abstract Existence Type 2 and Immortality type 8 here so the staff can evaluate it easier:

In the beginning of game, Akashi who introduce us to the basis of Shipgirls claimed this:

I'll explain, nya~! Decades ago, with the appearance of the Sirens and the "Wisdom Cube," ships gained the ability to manifest in human form, nya!
Although the technology that has come with the Wisdom Cubes has allowed us to hold our ground against the Sirens, that alone will not allow us to make any breakthroughs, nya...
For ships to be able to manifest as humans... the Wisdom Cube allows the collections of various feelings, emotions, and images from an unspecified number of people to take on a physical form... in other words, a "collective body," nya.

In theory, even if there was a ship that never existed, as long as peoples' beliefs in their form and function were strong enough, we would be able to manifest them as well, nya!

In the Dreamwaker's Butterfly event, we also get these statements from Shinano:

The manifestation of humanity's dreams and hopes, the Wisdom Cube... But there are special ones among them.

(I am a weapon... the embodiment of humanity's thoughts, the wishes for which they fight.)

In Khorovod of Dawn event, the Northen ships also talk about the same thing, add-on the existence of blueprint ships, which are different from normal shipgirls as they doesn't exist in history:

Kirov: "We have always thought that a ship's foundational hull is inseparable from its history. In essence, this history is supposed to be a sum of humanity's perceptions and notions about the ship."

Kirov: "A hull is widely considered a prerequisite to a ship's construction, even for mass-produced ships. By extension, a history is a prerequisite."

Kirov: "All this is to say, a shipgirl's history is her proof of existence. Even if she was only dreamed up in blueprints."

Kirov: "Yes, and this raises another question: What makes one a blueprint ship? Is it not something determined by the Wisdom Cubes that constitute our foundational hull?"

Kirov: "Through whatever means, the Wisdom Cubes already contain the data that makes us who we are. To build a ship, you must extract this information."

Kirov: "But what if there is not enough information within the Wisdom Cubes to give form to a ship? What would happen if you "edited" another reality into the Wisdom Cubes?"

Commander: "It's a lot to take in. If I understanding this right, Wisdom Cubes contain the "essence" of a shipgirl, and building them is the process of giving this essence a physical form, right? In contrast, blueprint ships..."

Commander: "Are you saying that someone is capable of inserting their own "history" into Wisdom Cubes and manifesting them...?"

Kirov:"Who knows? This is just a theory of mine, but if it is true, what restrictions are there on the kinds of history you are able to edit into a Wisdom Cube?"

Screenshot_20211009-001007_Azur_Lane.jpg
Click to expand...
My previous post sum this up:

Shipgirls is the physical manifestion of humanity's perception and thought of real life warships. The foundational hull are the history of that ships which the Wisdom Cube contain data of. Even if the ships doesn't actually exist, people's belief in their form and function were strong enough to bring them into reality.

Although, i'm still iffy about the part if they can regenerate from said concepts as this was the same problem for Immortality Type 8 above, there isn't a statement claim they can revive from it.
 
Antvasima said:
So the shipgirls are physical embodiments of abstract concepts that constantly regenerate as long as those concepts exist? Please elaborate.
Click to expand...
Well, for the record, they can't regen because there is no actual death in the game to confirm. And yes human belief allow them the cube and the ship to take human form, but it is just one of the condition; you still need to input data, information into the cube in case the ship you build have no history; other normal ship have history of service thus it easier for them to take human form. And the lore itself still vague about shipgirl and wisdom cube itself, most of the thing is like "beat around the bush", that why despite being the verse supporter i'm still avoiding Abstract Existence stuff, still waiting for more information. Current knowledge is Shipgirls require wisdom cube, history and human belief to take human form.

Jamesthetaker said:
Sorry for being late but Souryuu META and Hiryuu META has been updated.
Click to expand...
Well i re-check something, and according to the lastest OpSi file i posted before in this thread, it turn out that we need to fix the Weapon Creation, as the file said when Shipgirls born, the Wisdom Cube rearrange itself at particle level and form the shipgirl; that mean there is actually no Shipgirl's Wisdom Cube, the line was inaccurate because Shipgirl is the Cube itself rearrange its particle formation. So i intent to remove the Wisdom Cube part, just Shipgirl can manifest their weapon corresponse to their ship version, what is you opinion
 
I could think of Possibly since we get many statements fit with AE type 2 and they come from knowledgeable characters. Personally, i would want one last input from staff before closing this since we just going circle at this point. Whether it is agree or not, i'm kinda tired with AE stuff right now.
Vietthai96 said:
Well i re-check something, and according to the lastest OpSi file i posted before in this thread, it turn out that we need to fix the Weapon Creation, as the file said when Shipgirls born, the Wisdom Cube rearrange itself at particle level and form the shipgirl; that mean there is actually no Shipgirl's Wisdom Cube, the line was inaccurate because Shipgirl is the Cube itself rearrange its particle formation. So i intent to remove the Wisdom Cube part, just Shipgirl can manifest their weapon corresponse to their ship version, what is you opinion
Click to expand...
It is still Weapon Creation, we just need to adjust the justification a bit.
 
Jamesthetaker said:
It is still Weapon Creation, we just need to adjust the justification a bit.
Click to expand...
Well i change it into Weapon Summoning, but the main thing is Shipgirl's Wisdom Cube allow them to manifest their rigging which contain weapons corresponding to their ship version, the Wisdom Cube part need to go cuz it is inaccurate according to the lastest OpSi file. My version is Shipgirl can manifest their rigging which contain weapons corresponding to their ship version
 
Based off my relatively minor knowledge on azurlane and what has been said here. I agree with Vietthai96 in disagreeing with this stuff. Not even Type 2.
 
Thank you for helping out. The suggestion seems to have been rejected then.
 
Jamesthetaker said:
Personally, i still have my cent on Abstract Existence so i will add my argument here:

The act of "building" shipgirls here are using Wisdom Cube to manifest them into reality. So yes, shipgirls required to be build but not in a tradition sense because they are essentially being summoned.

While it is true that the exact nature of shipgirl still shrouded in mystery, most statements so far have point out an similier theory in humanity's perception and thought being extracted into the Cube that created them. Even when you take Shinano's word into consideration, it still collided with previous statements which mean everyone at least grasp the basis of their own existence not something they mutter out of nowhere.

Operation Siren File told the event prior to the game, back when humans don't known much about Wisdome Cube and were only experimenting. Nothing from it contradict game material, in fact, i would say the opposite since the current shipgirls gained knowledge and done more research on Wisdom Cube, therefore, the latter are reliable source to taken from.

As for Abstract Existence matter itself, based on my researching on several crts and profile, Type 2 is for abstract beings that can be affected in normal sense without needing NPI or Concept Manipulation:
  • Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it.
The bold part basically sum up and shipgirl fit the requirement.
Click to expand...
Type 2 Abstract Existence is Immortality Type 8 on a Abstraction. All this reads like with context that it would be at best the long-dead Abstract Existence Type 3.
 
Their was one, it was for characters who are said to be the Concept of or Embody this is that without having the incorporeal evidence of Type 1 or Resurrection evidence of Type 2.

It was gotten rid of because the power gave absolutely nothing and was only there to show this was one of the hundreds of characters who are the Embodiment of Evil or whatever but showed nothing from it.
 
Thank you for helping out Everything12. Should we close this thread?
 
Okay. I will do so. Thank you to everybody who helped out here.
 
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