Azur Lane Revisions Número 1: Ships Are More Than Just Cute Sexy Girls

[Vietthai96]

What was accepted is: Spatial Manipulation, Pocket Reality Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation, Hacking. Look like Ogbunabali want Immortality 8 go, but i want to see if Jame have any new thing to come up with

So time for the conclusion:

• Spatial Manipulation will be for Helena META who will have a profile in the future, Hiryuu META will have possible Spatial Manipulation for scaling to Helena but doesn't have feat or no ability
• Pocket Reality Manipulation will be for Siren, about Soryuu META the dialog said she now the owner of this Mirror Sea mean it was created way before, and Soryuu just come and take it as it can be control through a devices, thus right now i don't think she will have this ability but i will wait for Jame opinion.
• Conceptual Manipulation for Siren
• Hacking for Helena META, if anyone want to scale this for other META, they can only have a possible rating because no feat

Now detail information need to have on the profile to avoid misleading in information.

• Conceptual Manipulation will be Limited because it is confined to pocket dimension which is Mirror Sea.
• Pocket Reality Dimension, the Mirror Sea will be detailed in Weakness section as the following: Mirror Sea take an unknown amount of time to prepare and setup, its law and rule can't effect foreign elements/objects/beings come from outside, it can be destroyed or controlled via destroying or controlling the control device which maintain the Mirror Sea.

Done

 

[Jamesthetaker]

• Immortality can wait for another day.
• Other META ships can possibly have Hacking and Spatial Manipulation scaling from Helena META.
• Doesn't matter if Souryuu create the Mirror Sea or not, she still explicitly control it. Otherwise, I agree with @Vietthai96 proposal above.

 

[Vietthai96]

Doesn't matter if Souryuu create the Mirror Sea or not, she still explicitly control it. Otherwise, I agree with @Vietthai96 proposal above.

Oke, tbh i think she control it via Hacking like Helena because of control device but just my thinking

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Well tbf iirc in Ashen Simulacron I remember that another META ship was able to break space or something like that. Perhaps I can find something there.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Btw, I would like to see if Ogb has something to say about my last comments here.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

You could ask him to comment here again on his wall.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Welp (Although I thought he was following the thread ._.XD)

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Anyway...
This should be the updated profile. There's no problem with how it is?

 

[Vietthai96]

There is somethings wrong, META ship don't break space with their attack, Helena META specifically rip a hole in space with her power not a attack. Second is the Mirror Sea doesn't amp Soryuu power, she already that strong, it amped the simulated fleet inside the Mirror Sea. And lastly, where is Fire Manip, i bet you take it from her Boss fight

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

There is somethings wrong, META ship don't break space with their attack, Helena META specifically rip a hole in space with her power not a attack.

Ah well. I thought it was more like an attack instead of a power, but ok.

Second is the Mirror Sea doesn't amp Soryuu power, she already that strong, it amped the simulated fleet inside the Mirror Sea.

Seriously? I remember that was thanks to her power over the Mirror Sea that her defenses were so high that they wasn't able to harm her. Also, now that you mention that, shouldn't she have then something like Empowerment via that?

And lastly, where is Fire Manip, i bet you take it from her Boss fight

It was already there, I just added the stuff agreed here.

 

[Vietthai96]

I don't remember anything like Fire Manipulation, it is just a visual of the boss fight that flame appear on water surface

Seriously? I remember that was thanks to her power over the Mirror Sea that her defenses were so high that they wasn't able to harm her. Also, now that you mention that, shouldn't she have then something like Empowerment via that?

well no she already that strong, Helena need to override the control device of the Mirror Sea to amp New Jersey fleet (not a big amp, but still a amp nonetheless) but her full barrels, max powered shot not even make a dent on Soryuu armor. About empowerment, it is already including in Pocket Reality Manipulation, you only need to write a description that Mirror sea can amp allies power

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Oka

 

[Vietthai96]

I really want to make a Takao and Enterprise profiles, both their normal and META. Sad noise

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Speaking about that, can I make Shinano's profile (well when a Dreamweaver's Butterfly rerun is confirmed)

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well how do you have an Abstract Existence "feat"? Of course, that can be my interpretation, but that doesn't mean I'm inherently wrong, because what I'm doing is supporting my theory with evidence and context that helps me support what I'm saying, and none of them, personally, was really refuted nor counter-argued, at least from my perspective. Answering to the other part, well, inserting data and such doesn't really debunks any of my previous points, because data itself can be treated as something abstract, and/or in this case, that data itself can be all human perception towards the ship in question. Those statements doesn't really contradict each other, and whether they must be built or not doesn't prove or disprove anything, since the construction itself would be that process of manifesting the physical body for the general idea.
Btw, I don't want to take out the card of giving superiority of a statement towards other, but just in case, Kirov's statement, as you said, is an speculation, while Akashi's statement is a direct explanation. Don't want to say that Akashi is more reliable than Kirov, as I think they have reason in their own ways, but anyway, I'm just leaving that here.
Finally, unknown or not, it doesn't mean we have to disprove what we already have. I think I already said that before, but with all the statements collected until now, there is a safe and solid conclusion to be made, and if something has to change in a future, so be it.


I'm not saying that we have to go easily with any other case to say that X or Y thing is Type 8 Immo and blablabla. I know this is always a case-by-case scenario. However, if there are pretty direct statements and interpretations in-verse that points towards that point of view, going with what is the most simple and solid of the scenarios is the most reliable option. It's not a case of wanking, is a case of logic, because, as the principle says, sometimes the most simplest is the most correct. Also, honestly I don't understand that axiom of "high-ends are unreliable, they are only there to wank". I mean, I know that sometimes the high-end is really exaggerated, but that can't be said about the low/mid-ends? Because there's always the other side of the coin, y'know? Saying that all high-ends are bad because there can be ones that are clear exaggeration is a fallacy, and something I can also say for the low-ends, and even mid-ends. It's not going always towards the high-end, it's going to the most possible one.
Also taking the card of other verses doesn't work, because each one has its own context and explanations. I'm not here to argue what is fair and what is not for Azur Lane and other realities. I'm here to argue my point of view and what I think it's correct.

I do understand where you're coming from, but, to me, the quotes read more like a Subjective Reality feat for the cube rather than Abstract Existence for the ships.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

But what about, for example, Shinano's statement that she's an embodiment of humanity's thoughts?

 

[Ogbunabali]

But what about, for example, Shinano's statement that she's an embodiment of humanity's thoughts?

Well, I am kind of on the fence of this myself. So maybe a "possibly" rating would be fair?

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...

Fair enough.

 

[Vietthai96]

Well, I am kind of on the fence of this myself. So maybe a "possibly" rating would be fair?

Hell no, there is 2 version, embodiment and on is not, she only said she is the hope of Sakura Empire, hope as in metaphor sense, where you are the hope of someone to accomplice something

Also a proof for Shipgirl is just a simple physical being

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Not again plz

Hell no, there is 2 version, embodiment and on is not, she only said she is the hope of Sakura Empire, hope as in metaphor sense, where you are the hope of someone to accomplice something

No.

She literally says before that she's an embodiment of humanity's thoughts, not only that she is the hope of Sakura Empire. Again, I fail to see how this is something metaphorical, when the things are pretty clear.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Also a proof for Shipgirl is just a simple physical being

About this, I don't see how it proves anything. There is just talking about the process of creating a physical body for the ship, same process that we already know and I covered before, but is not directly stating that Shipgirls are totally that body itself.

 

[Vietthai96]

About this, I don't see how it proves anything. There is just talking about the process of creating a physical body for the ship, same process that we already know and I covered before, but is not directly stating that Shipgirls are totally that body itself.

And, nothing stated shipgirls have true body, you need to prove, not using assumption

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

But all the "assumptions" are supported by context and explanations that points to my original premise. Once more, is not about assuming, is about logic.
Bruh honestly, I'm tired of continue arguing about this... can't we just be happy with a possibly Type 2 Abstract Existence (One that doesn't even require to be totally incorporeal, as I mentioned before), and continue with our lives?

 

[Vietthai96]

Nope it should be accurate (i declare as the verse biggest supporter @.@), first you assume they should have true body/self, somewhere, which is the high-end, and Abstract Existence is a controversal ability, we need to take the low-end first before anything else which mean the statements about human belief by default is treated as flowery and metaphor language unless proven otherwise, which requires supporting feat or statements. But AE shipgirl doesn't have supporting feat which honestly for a game like Azur Lane hardly happen, so which leave statements; but statements have anti-statement which currently indicated shipgirl is just normal physical being; not only that but also Akashi statement was way older than Kirov statement and Operation Siren File, mean the game either contradicting or retcon itself; with the later being more evident as early events like Visistor Dyed in Red support Campaign story in which we have Midway Battle and the aftermatch; but going to the later/recently events they all retcon early event and campaign story; let us remind that the paragraph from research plan belong to lab feature along with Akashi statement which dated way back before Kirov event and Operation Siren, Manjuu can well retcon (shot) themself already

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Well that was a joke tho

Nope it should be accurate (i declare as the verse biggest supporter @.@), first you assume they should have true body/self, somewhere, which is the high-end, and Abstract Existence is a controversal ability, we need to take the low-end first before anything else which mean the statements about human belief by default is treated as flowery and metaphor language unless proven otherwise, which requires supporting feat or statements.

Well first of all, quoting from my own statements above:

Also, honestly I don't understand that axiom of "high-ends are unreliable, they are only there to wank". I mean, I know that sometimes the high-end is really exaggerated, but that can't be said about the low/mid-ends? Because there's always the other side of the coin, y'know? Saying that all high-ends are bad because there can be ones that are clear exaggeration is a fallacy, and something I can also say for the low-ends, and even mid-ends. It's not going always towards the high-end, it's going to the most possible one.

Once more, I fail to see how any of the statements are somehow metaphors. Not only because contextually speaking it has no sense that someone who is instructing you out of sudden starts speaking rhetorical so you can't understand nothing at all, but because none of the other statements nor the lore of the game supports the idea that somehow all of these kind of statements are a lie or something like that. And no, there's literally 0 reason to say that they need to prove something that is pretty clear and direct, but instead, the ones who are going against what they are telling to me needs to prove why, which you didn't. Being controversial or not doesn't prove anything at all, and actually, using this card alongside your whole premise is an argument from incredulity.

But AE shipgirl doesn't have supporting feat which honestly for a game like Azur Lane hardly happen, so which leave statements;

Still don't know how it's supposed to be an Abstract Existence "feat" /unflip.

but statements have anti-statement which currently indicated shipgirl is just normal physical being; not only that but also Akashi statement was way older than Kirov statement and Operation Siren File, mean the game either contradicting or retcon itself;

There are no real anti-statements, just the ones you are conjugating yourself. I already explained how none of the statements you showed really contradict each other, as they can even be solidified and more related to my initial premise about Shipgirls being abstract.

mean the game either contradicting or retcon itself; with the later being more evident as early events like Visistor Dyed in Red support Campaign story in which we have Midway Battle and the aftermatch; but going to the later/recently events they all retcon early event and campaign story;

Actually, I don't remember something like recent events "retconing" the main story, nor something that really contradicts anything at all. At most, it would be detailing more on what happened in those events and that, but a real retcon, hmmmmm, idk.

let us remind that the paragraph from research plan belong to lab feature along with Akashi statement which dated way back before Kirov event and Operation Siren, Manjuu can well retcon (shot) themself already

Which again, doesn't contradict each other. Even so, in the same event was stated how ships are connected to human perception and all that stuff, which further proves my initial premise, and shows once more the consistency of the statement itself. See it as you want, but literally all anti-statements aren't that, but instead, fragments of the original point, that when you contextualize and put all pieces together can see how they correlates with each other.

 

[Antvasima]

So are some of you ready to start applying what has been accepted here?

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I don't remember anything like Fire Manipulation, it is just a visual of the boss fight that flame appear on water surface

One of her attack is to make fire on water then shoot projectile from said flames. Her first skills inflict burn debuff so that count.

 

[Vietthai96]

One of her attack is to make fire on water then shoot projectile from said flames. Her first skills inflict burn debuff so that count.

Technically, HE Shell can cause fire on board

Once more, I fail to see how any of the statements are somehow metaphors. Not only because contextually speaking it has no sense that someone who is instructing you out of sudden starts speaking rhetorical so you can't understand nothing at all, but because none of the other statements nor the lore of the game supports the idea that somehow all of these kind of statements are a lie or something like that. And no, there's literally 0 reason to say that they need to prove something that is pretty clear and direct, but instead, the ones who are going against what they are telling to me needs to prove why, which you didn't. Being controversial or not doesn't prove anything at all, and actually, using this card alongside your whole premise is an argument from incredulity.


There are no real anti-statements, just the ones you are conjugating yourself. I already explained how none of the statements you showed really contradict each other, as they can even be solidified and more related to my initial premise about Shipgirls being abstract.


Actually, I don't remember something like recent events "retconing" the main story, nor something that really contradicts anything at all. At most, it would be detailing more on what happened in those events and that, but a real retcon, hmmmmm, idk.


Which again, doesn't contradict each other. Even so, in the same event was stated how ships are connected to human perception and all that stuff, which further proves my initial premise, and shows once more the consistency of the statement itself. See it as you want, but literally all anti-statements aren't that, but instead, fragments of the original point, that when you contextualize and put all pieces together can see how they correlates with each other.

It is all interpretation anyway, you interpreted them as something not flowery, i'm interpreted them as not flowery, but you failed to give supporting evidences, all you did was isolated context and ignore other statements regarding shipgirls existences and assumed that shipgirls somehow are only avatar while they have true body as fact. Retcon doesn't need the game or the author directly tell you that "hey i retcon those thing", inconsistency is a thing, and when inconsistency happen consistently, it is not inconsistency or PiS or outlier anymore

 

[Antvasima]

So are some of you ready to start applying what has been accepted here?

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I will do it at the weekend.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

Tell us here when you are done.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Sorry for being late but Souryuu META and Hiryuu META has been updated.

Other things are to be discussed in another CRT so this is done for now.

 

[Vietthai96]

Currently taking dinner, but i will add more information on her, the current one is really lacking

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Tell me here when you are all done and I should close this thread.

 

[Vietthai96]

Sorry for being late but Souryuu META and Hiryuu META has been updated.

Other things are to be discussed in another CRT so this is done for now.

Okay. Tell me here when you are all done and I should close this thread.

Done, both of you can check, if you guys find them good then Ant this thread can be locked. There is some part lack scans and evidences but i will add those sometime later, busy again

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Ouchit the thread is still open.

Weellll~ If I can say one last thing before its closed... can't we just get along with the Type 2 Abstract Existence? I mean, from the recall most people had agreed with it, and we already reached to a conclusion for that. It's not even a direct ability but a possibly rating, something not only accepted for most people here, but for an admin itself. I mean, I don't know, but honestly, leaving that aside just because now one person is arguing against it it's kinda unfair, in my opinion.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you remind us about the reasons for the power, and about who argues against it and why, please?

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Give me a second.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Ok so, I'm going to summarize the main points for and against my proposal, and provide some counterarguments towards them.

Ships Are Abstract Entities

The reasons to say that Shipgirls can be treated as abstract entities are the following:

1) They are consistently mentioned as manifestations of ideas and human thoughts.

2) It was constantly stated that they rely on human perception and beliefs, being able to manifest thanks to this, even if they don't have a story at all.

3) Are stated to be a collection of feelings, images, and emotions, gaining a physical body.

4) Directly stated to be the embodiment of human thoughts and wishes.

5) The Wisdom Cubes, which are basically what gives birth to Shipgirls, are said to manifest humanity's collective consciousness into Ships. This is also supported by the fact that their physical bodies are called as a collective body, implying that the ship by itself is that abstract collection of ideas.

These are the main reasons for the AE. Although my initial proposal was to argue type 1, it was mostly seem as type 2, which I think it's more solid and consistent for now.

Ships Cannot Be Abstract

So the general arguments to not accept this are that:

1) All the statements about embodying ideals and such are just metaphors and flowery language, as they seem vague enough to give something more solid.

2) Later in the game, it seems like there were some contradictions and retcons that invalidates the initial premise mentioned by characters such as Akashi.

3) There are Operation Siren's files, which debunks any argument for abstractions, as they are implying that Shipgirls and everything related to Wisdom Cubes are phyhsical.

Maybe there are more, but from the recall these are the 3 main reasons to not accept the AE.

Now with my counterarguments:

-1: There's no solid reason to say that all the statements are rethorics. Contextually, it's illogical that they somehow would not tell you the truth when they talk about general studies about Siren Technology, which is worse if we consider that 1) We are in an investigation, so metaphors doesn't fit at all in it, and 2) Both statements comes from knowleadgable characters well-versed in all that scientifical stuff. This is more important with Akashi, who is in charge to give you the general knowledge about Ships.

-2: There aren't any real contradictions in the game. If you analyze better all those statements that, supposedly, contradicts the first idea, then you would realize that all of them are correlated, and, in fact, supports more my general proposal. For example, the thing of inserting data into the Ships to manifest them, which is basically the same process of using humanity's consciousness to manifest the Ship (and by the way, it seems that in AL data is treated as something more metaphysical. See the case of souls being referred to as "quantum data" in Ink Stained Steel Sakura)

-3: Same with the previous point. Operation Siren doesn't contradicts nothing at all. As I mentioned in my first response, being phyisical or not doesn't really affects Ships in this context, because even if we follow that assumption, it doesn't negates what we already have. For example, it was used as a support of this idea a file that explains how the Wisdom Cubes are from a meteorite or something like that. As I said before, the very statement used for this literally explains how those meteorites are different than the usual physical one, being even something that always existed and potentially caused the Big Bang. And to put the cherry on the cake, the same file says that these meteorites have a special nature, being essentially different to a real physical one. So no, this can't be used to negate anything.
Also there is what James said about Operation Siren, which seem to be set in a different timeline, so yeah.

So well that's basically a summary of the discussion until now.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you. I am uncertain what our exact current standards are about what qualifies as sentient concepts or ideas.

Ok so, I'm going to summarize the main points for and against my proposal, and provide some counterarguments towards them.

Ships Are Abstract Entities

The reasons to say that Shipgirls can be treated as abstract entities are the following:

1) They are consistently mentioned as manifestations of ideas and human thoughts.

2) It was constantly stated that they rely on human perception and beliefs, being able to manifest thanks to this, even if they don't have a story at all.

3) Are stated to be a collection of feelings, images, and emotions, gaining a physical body.

4) Directly stated to be the embodiment of human thoughts and wishes.

5) The Wisdom Cubes, which are basically what gives birth to Shipgirls, are said to manifest humanity's collective consciousness into Ships. This is also supported by the fact that their physical bodies are called as a collective body, implying that the ship by itself is that abstract collection of ideas.

These are the main reasons for the AE. Although my initial proposal was to argue type 1, it was mostly seem as type 2, which I think it's more solid and consistent for now.

Ships Cannot Be Abstract

So the general arguments to not accept this are that:

1) All the statements about embodying ideals and such are just metaphors and flowery language, as they seem vague enough to give something more solid.

2) Later in the game, it seems like there were some contradictions and retcons that invalidates the initial premise mentioned by characters such as Akashi.

3) There are Operation Siren's files, which debunks any argument for abstractions, as they are implying that Shipgirls and everything related to Wisdom Cubes are phyhsical.

Maybe there are more, but from the recall these are the 3 main reasons to not accept the AE.

Now with my counterarguments:

-1: There's no solid reason to say that all the statements are rethorics. Contextually, it's illogical that they somehow would not tell you the truth when they talk about general studies about Siren Technology, which is worse if we consider that 1) We are in an investigation, so metaphors doesn't fit at all in it, and 2) Both statements comes from knowleadgable characters well-versed in all that scientifical stuff. This is more important with Akashi, who is in charge to give you the general knowledge about Ships.

-2: There aren't any real contradictions in the game. If you analyze better all those statements that, supposedly, contradicts the first idea, then you would realize that all of them are correlated, and, in fact, supports more my general proposal. For example, the thing of inserting data into the Ships to manifest them, which is basically the same process of using humanity's consciousness to manifest the Ship (and by the way, it seems that in AL data is treated as something more metaphysical. See the case of souls being referred to as "quantum data" in Ink Stained Steel Sakura)

-3: Same with the previous point. Operation Siren doesn't contradicts nothing at all. As I mentioned in my first response, being phyisical or not doesn't really affects Ships in this context, because even if we follow that assumption, it doesn't negates what we already have. For example, it was used as a support of this idea a file that explains how the Wisdom Cubes are from a meteorite or something like that. As I said before, the very statement used for this literally explains how those meteorites are different than the usual physical one, being even something that always existed and potentially caused the Big Bang. And to put the cherry on the cake, the same file says that these meteorites have a special nature, being essentially different to a real physical one. So no, this can't be used to negate anything.
Also there is what James said about Operation Siren, which seem to be set in a different timeline, so yeah.

So well that's basically a summary of the discussion until now.

@Duedate8898 @Planck69 @Armorchompy @CrimsonStarFallen @UchihaSlayer96

What do you think about this?