Baka Tier No Longer (Touhou Low Tier Upgrades)

[ElixirBlue]

Alrighty, I was asked to look into this thread specifically if Boros' calc can be used but not other aspects of the thread. Pls be patient as I evaluate.

For Meiling's stuff, it may be a little exaggerated since the term "earth" can refer to the planet or simply the ground. Do you have original text to prove that Meiling is shaking the planet Earth?

The text uses 大地, which to my knowledge does in fact refer to the planet earth.

Japanese Wikitionary has different interruption which is more close to "earth". wordhippo.com, Nihongo, Culture Tour, Romanjidesu also hold similar interruption in which 大地 is not Earth, but earth. Japanese Wikipedia also does not have any indication which suggests 大地 means the Earth. Editor of English Wikitionary could mistaken "Earth" and "earth". Therefore, considering shaking 大地 as shaking Earth is a misinterruption. Even though 大地 may possibly mean Earth (which is contradicted to sources I noted above), 地球 is clearly the far more accurate description of the Earth.

It simply being earth and not Earth doesn't make a whole lot of sense considering his following line about "disintegrating the lands on the surface"; That to me suggests far more than just a single localized earthquake.

"disintegrating the lands on the surface" can also refer to the limited range of the earth and translating 大地 to earth is something too uncommon and inaccurate judged by these dictionaries.

Meiling stuff: Theres a lot wrong here.
The catfish feat refers to surface wiping so its only multi continent level (it should outright be that realistically). The scaling is fine since characters are generally equal to their dream world selves and catfish creates the explosion he said hed perform which implies he did the feat while in the dream while meiling was fighting him.

Ok, which brings in Boros' relevancy.

I agree with most of this besides the Meiling part. It seems more like a Multi-Continental feat rather than a Country or Planetary level one.

In regards to outright vaporizing the surface, I don't actually know. There should be someone who can spare the time to calculate something like that.

Boros incinerates the surface of the Earth

vsbattles.fandom.com

This might work

From what I've gathered, this Meiling stuff has no actual visual showings, just like Boros. The calc was made in service of how strong Boros would be shown if he went through with his final attack under this wording if Saitama didn't stop the feat.

I believe its fine to use Boros' calc as a reference in this case.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Okay then, it seems like the 5-C end has been accepted. Very cool. Since we ironed out Cirno's calc earlier and nobody brought up any issues with Nitori's calc, I believe all that's left to do here is finalize scaling (which is like 99% done already) and get staff approval.

 

[RethPo]

I think moon rabbits would be at least 8-B likely 5-C since its mainly just scaling to reisen

The three fairies lightning thing. Its in discussion right? If so i think it should wait for a later time till that discussion is done.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I think moon rabbits would be at least 8-B likely 5-C since its mainly just scaling to reisen

Fair. I also think that's a bit more reasonable.

The three fairies lightning thing. Its in discussion right? If so i think it should wait for a later time till that discussion is done.

Agreed. Though the thread hasn't seen much action lately so I doubt it'll get resolved soon.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Today has been a good day for the low tier 2hu folks! City Block, Small Town, and Moon Tier 2hus!

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Today has been a good day for the low tier 2hu folks! City Block, Small Town, and Moon Tier 2hus!

Feels good to have actual tier diversity, I feel like that's never really been the case with Touhou before.

I'd say this means better MUs in the future but nah, most low tier 2hus are too haxxed. Maybe put Meiling against some moon level Cthulu mythos eldritch horror or SCP idk

 

[RethPo]

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara Ive updated the profiles that should have 5-C ratings on them, as well as cirno and nitoris. The rest of the 8-B and low 7-C profiles you can handle.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Sweet.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Ah,

I figured we were gonna need a bit more input but a bit too late to go back now. As for the edits though, Meiling should be 'at least' 5-C due to the 5-C feat being only a fraction of her power that she was still able to contend with while in a weakened state. This is a bit of a bad time for me since I'm gonna be busy as hell for the next day or so but I'll do what I can.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

But I thought Tanned Cirno scaled to the Mid Tiers aka Meiling Tier due to being powered by Okina.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh right we also need staff to unlock the spirit manipulation page so I can add the universal energy system related stuff, that's important.

 

[BlastX]

Huh, I would edit Meiling's profile to add the at least, unless anyone else wants to do it first.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm working on it. Trying to add scans as well, especially for the dreams = reality bit.

 

[BlastX]

Yeah that's for the best, I can edit with my phone but It's not the most...precise method.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Would it make sense for Tanned Cirno to be At Least 7-C, Likely/Possibly 5-C? Am thinking of editing the profile to make it say so... Also, maybe, we should have one more mod come by and approve this CRT?

 

[BlastX]

A bit late when the profiles are already being edited.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I can fix up the profiles for Nitori, Cirno, and Meiling tonight... everything after that is a bit out of my hands until like. Monday. Do what yall think is best in terms of editing until then. Just remember that scans and references help a lot (and are basically necessary for profiles to not get deleted at this point tbh).

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Nvm Nitori and Cirno's profiles are fine as is, Meiling's profile has been improved, if yall can wait a couple days I can do the rest of the necessary edits then.

 

[RethPo]

I dont think the catfish ever said anything about it being a fraction of her energy. It was energy taken from her fighting a bunch of assassins over time so it would scale directly to her power. Claiming its a fraction seems like headcannon. But ive updated the wall levels to city block and buildings to small town now im awake.

 

[Mariogoods]

Well... I don't know if the statement problem brought by me has been answered anyway. I hold my view that feats based on mistranslation should not be used.

 

[RethPo]

You mean that surface can translate to the lands to the horizon? Immmm not sure if thatd make work in context if thats what you mean...

 

[Mariogoods]

You mean that surface can translate to the lands to the horizon? Immmm not sure if thatd make work in context if thats what you mean...

My arguments are here:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/baka-tier-no-longer-touhou-low-tier-upgrades.139337/post-4917982

https://vsbattles.com/threads/baka-tier-no-longer-touhou-low-tier-upgrades.139337/post-4918007

 

[RethPo]

Hm. Then this thread could be left open if you want to get someone good with that sorta stuff to evaluate the translation. Im not the best person to ask.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I dont think the catfish ever said anything about it being a fraction of her energy. It was energy taken from her fighting a bunch of assassins over time so it would scale directly to her power. Claiming its a fraction seems like headcannon. But ive updated the wall levels to city block and buildings to small town now im awake.

If it was all of her energy, she wouldn't have been able to fight the Giant Catfish at all. But she managed to hold her own against it for a while, showing she had more than enough energy to spare.

Well... I don't know if the statement problem brought by me has been answered anyway. I hold my view that feats based on mistranslation should not be used.

We're using the "lands on the surface" statement, so I don't think the issues with the translation of earth would apply here.

 

[RethPo]

If it was all of her energy, she wouldn't have been able to fight the Giant Catfish at all. But she managed to hold her own against it for a while, showing she had more than enough energy to spare.

If i as a human can punch with a force of 40 joules, and you get a punching bag with the ability to absorb and store all the energy from my punches. You would be able to store 40 joules or possibly even more. Same would apply to attacks from a slightly above baseline meiling. Catfish doesnt instantly use some energy drain ability on her, he sends assassins to take energy from her over time a period of time and gets it from her attacks. Not to mention he can beat her afterwards.

Even if it were a mistranslation, destroying the lands alone sounds almost like a tier 7 feat...

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

If i as a human can punch with a force of 40 joules, and you get a punching bag with the ability to absorb and store all the energy from my punches. You would be able to store 40 joules or possibly even more. Same would apply to attacks from a slightly above baseline meiling. Catfish doesnt instantly use some energy drain ability on her, he sends assassins to take energy from her over time a period of time and gets it from her attacks. Not to mention he can beat her afterwards.

That's uh, not how the energy absorption works. There's nothing indicating that they're storing the energy from Meiling's attacks and then transferring it to to Giant Catfish. The fact that Meiling's energy was being directly absorbed and not just having the energy of her attacks stored and transferred elsewhere is also apparent based on this earlier passage. This also shows that Meiling was in fact in a weakened state when matching the 5-C catfish, so I think that alone would warrant an "at least".

Even if it were a mistranslation, destroying the lands alone sounds almost like a tier 7 feat...

IF it were a mistranslation. IIRC Mariogoods only really had an issue with the earth shaking stuff based on the kanji used for "earth", but we're using a different statement.

 

[RethPo]

Whether the giant catfish is storing or transferring it doesnt matter. Hes taking energy from a bunch of fights with her and generally the amount of energy you have is more than the amount of energy you can generate with an attack.

Not to mention if she is weakened, that would imply catfish absorbed a significant portion of her energy and she lost to that baseline moon level strength that was her own regardless. So either way there should be no at least rating.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Whether the giant catfish is storing or transferring it doesnt matter. Hes taking energy from a bunch of fights with her and generally the amount of energy you have is more than the amount of energy you can generate with an attack.

Not to mention if she is weakened, that would imply catfish absorbed a significant portion of her energy and she lost to that baseline moon level strength regardless. So either way there should be no at least rating.

It does matter. If it's the collective energy of all of Meiling's attacks, then the amount she scales to is way less. If it's her own inner reserves of energy, then she scales above the full amount no matter what. If they took 50% of her energy, then that 50% was what would be used for the 5-C feat, so Meiling with access to all of her energy would be twice as strong. While we don't know how much energy was taken, we know it wasn't 100% because Meiling was still strong enough to fight the giant catfish and, y'know, didn't go into a coma from having her energy drained, something that normally happens to youkai.

Also, Meiling being weakened but still comparable to a 5-C feat shows that, at full power, she would upscale. So yes, the 'at least' still works.

 

[RethPo]

You do realise how flawed it is to say that meiling had 10% of her energy taken to do a 5-C feat, yet lost or fought evenly to that amount of energy despite the most she can be weakened to by that point is 90% right? She literally cant, while in that fight, be above the power catfish had. If she actually stomped catfish youd have a point.

The best argument you can realistically make for her being above the feat is if you say catfish took 50% of her energy and she fought catfish with 50% which would actually make her twice the feat with the fight making sense (still moon level). Or just say meiling was holding back which, pretty sure wouldnt happen in a dream where shes trynna stop the immediate destruction of the planet.

 

[BlastX]

The thing is Meiling doesn't need to win that fight to scale to it since the fish was using her power, even if she got curbstomped it was while drained and someone using her power against her.

Again, she would scale regardless of the fight.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You do realise how flawed it is to say that meiling had 10% of her energy taken to do a 5-C feat, yet lost or fought evenly to that amount of energy despite the most she can be weakened to by that point is 90% right? She literally cant, while in that fight, be above the power catfish had. If she actually stomped catfish youd have a point.

That's not what I'm saying. In fact, I outright said we don't know how much energy was taken. But given the Giant Catfish did beat her (albeit was still comparable), she must have had more than half of her energy taken from her. In any case, it wasn't 100% of her power, so Meiling at 100% power would be superior to the 5-C feat to an unknown degree, hence the 'at least'.

The best argument you can realistically make for her being above the feat is if you say catfish took 50% of her energy and she fought catfish with 50% which would actually make her twice the feat with the fight making sense (still moon level). Or just say meiling was holding back which, pretty sure wouldnt happen in a dream where shes trynna stop the immediate destruction of the planet.

Yeah, that is my argument. It being still within the same tier shouldn't change the usage of 'at least' though, because we know she's stronger than the results of that calc, we just don't know how much stronger. If we had a solid multiplier to give her, I'd be fine with just 5-C.

 

[RethPo]

Yeah, that is my argument. It being still within the same tier shouldn't change the usage of 'at least' though, because we know she's stronger than the results of that calc, we just don't know how much stronger. If we had a solid multiplier to give her, I'd be fine with just 5-C.

The at least rating is given if theres nothing stopping the character from the next tier (like if all their feats are casual or if they get way stronger later). If meiling has nothing to suggest her potentially being far enough above the feat to be the next tier then shes just outright 5-C since even being a maximum of twice the feat is still the same tier.

If we gave at least ratings simply because you are likely some random level above the feat (despite little possiblility of being the next tier) there would be a lot more profiles with at least ratings.

 

[ÆONS]

Bruh we already applied the 5-C ratings on the profiles and you lot are still arguing about it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The at least rating is given if theres nothing stopping the character from the next tier (like if all their feats are casual or if they get way stronger later). If meiling has nothing to suggest her potentially being far enough above the feat to be the next tier then shes just outright 5-C since even being a maximum of twice the feat is still the same tier.

If we gave at least ratings simply because you are likely some random level above the feat (despite little possiblility of being the next tier) there would be a lot more profiles with at least ratings.

Why is that the maximum? We don't know how much was absorbed. The 50% was just an example.

Bruh we already applied the 5-C ratings on the profiles and you lot are still arguing about it.

Yeah wait, aren't all the edits done? Thanks for that btw @RethPo

 

[RethPo]

Why is that the maximum? We don't know how much was absorbed. The 50% was just an example.

Iiiii literally just explained to ya. Catfish in your logic cant posess anything less than 50% of meilings energy. Otherwise meiling would outright stomp him due to her posessing well over 50% since she wouldnt be weakened enough from the energy drain. If catfish absorbs 50% of meilings strength or more then at best meiling can be twice the feat. Since its 50-99 percent of her strength achieving that.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Iiiii literally just explained to ya. Catfish in your logic cant posess anything less than 50% of meilings energy. Otherwise meiling would outright stomp him due to her posessing well over 50% since she wouldnt be weakened enough from the energy drain. If catfish absorbs 50% of meilings strength or more then at best meiling can be twice the feat. Since its 50-99 percent of her strength achieving that.

Yes, that's what I mean. Why are we assuming that the amount of energy absorbed caps at 50%? As you just admitted, it could be anywhere from 50% to 99%, and the higher end interpretations could make Meiling 10x to 100x stronger than the 5-C feat, more than enough to surpass 5-C. That's what warrants an 'at least' here, since she could exceed 5-C at 100% power, but we don't know for sure.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Anyways just to double check, you have edited all the necessary profiles, right?

 

[RethPo]

Yes, that's what I mean. Why are we assuming that the amount of energy absorbed caps at 50%? As you just admitted, it could be anywhere from 50% to 99%, and the higher end interpretations could make Meiling 10x to 100x stronger than the 5-C feat, more than enough to surpass 5-C. That's what warrants an 'at least' here, since she could exceed 5-C at 100% power, but we don't know for sure.

What??? No it would not! 99 percent of your power being used for a moon level attack does not make you 100 times moon level. It makes you barely 1% above. This is basic math man, come on! How are you not getting any of this?

Anyways just to double check, you have edited all the necessary profiles, right?

Yeah, everything on both my lists then a handful that were just tier 7

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What??? No it would not! 99 percent of your power being used for a moon level attack does not make you 100 times moon level. It makes you barely 1% above. This is basic math man, come on! How are you not getting any of this?

Yeah, everything on both my lists then a handful that were just tier 7

look in my defense i have not slept in a long time

 

[RethPo]

Get yer restttt!
But yeah i dont think at least is necessary on the profile, no big deal if its left tho ig.