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BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

Also the soul cycle existing existing doesn't prove it was involved in reio's feat, I'm willing to concede this point if i see evidence for it
 
The soul cycle argument is headcanon and should be disregarded as such. Arc compiled several scans stating reio's reiryuoku stabilizes the realms with no mention of soul cycle (Also wasn't soul king a borderline vegetable, having trouble seeing why he could manipulate infinite souls if he cant even move)
 
Because I do believe it influences the qualifications of the Soul King's stabilization feat.
But I will not argue it here because most of those here have already settled their minds.
I disagree, but I do not want to debate this, personally. But I am curious.


Why does the stabilization feat matter when the main feat in question is Yhwach's destruction of the three realms?

In my response, I specified that if the destruction of what is sustained has to be instant to qualify, which I have my problems with but whatever, then fine, disqualify the Soul King's feat, but also disqualify Michael's feat too.

That the main argument is Yhwach's shit, not Reio's.
 
yesn't

tbh i stopped following that thread since i know where it would go.

i just plan to stick to discussion threads like this one and the other side of the wiki for the most part
I see.

Well, if you haven't been keeping up with the staff thread, I haven't either, and would like to see what was written as the responses.

This is Arc's response, which has my thing split apart within, and this is just my whole response.


Enjoy, I guess.
 
What's the reasoning for assuming its not scaleable, Yhwach was going to destroy it with his dark energy, and reio does it with reiryoku, a shinigami's power source
 
I would also like to reiterate about Duedate's question is that, once again, the Soul Cycle has nothing to do with what the Soul's King's stabilizes, it is a completely different factor that also affects the cosmology but is not controlled by SK, again the ones who's literal main purpose is to keep the Soul Cycle in check are the Shinigami themselves, the SK doesn't do anything with it.

Soul King's one purpose is to stabilize the realms and prevent their natural collpase without him, he is not meant to prevent the natural collpase + the soul cycle going out of balance simultaneously.

 
I disagree, but I do not want to debate this, personally. But I am curious.

Why does the stabilization feat matter when the main feat in question is Yhwach's destruction of the three realms?

In my response, I specified that if the destruction of what is sustained has to be instant to qualify, which I have my problems with but whatever, then fine, disqualify the Soul King's feat, but also disqualify Michael's feat too.

That the main argument is Yhwach's shit, not Reio's.
Mainly because both have been put into question over the course of the entire thread, even in all the final post, Soul King's stabilization is still brought up so I figured it was still considered important.
 
They clearly didn’t read Arcs post. Literally debunks the logic it was done with Almighty via the raws... So in other words literally their raw energy that is used to scale their other stats.
i mean did u expected them to read their responses? at most i say they read a lil and if at all since imo they already have their decision made before they read it
 
Why is it still being argued that this doesn’t scale to their stats. One is even asking for quotes of them saying their attacks use more power than passively holding the worlds.

Yhwach’s dead body has enough energy to hold the world forever. Why is this being argued this energy is most of his power. It’s blowing my mind right now.
 
Let's steel man the souls thing real quick.

If an imbalance of souls can collapse the universe, that would logically mean that the imbalance of souls is likely 3-A, it does not mean that causing an imbalance is 3-A, just once you get it imbalanced the cycle becomes a destructive 3-A torrent (if I hold cut the ropes holding a bridge, I scale to the ropes, not the collapse of the bridge).

So the Quincies pose a threat to the ropes of this bridge.

Meanwhile the Reio controls the entire bridge in this analogy in which I steel man. So if Reio can control an entire cycle that is 3-A what's the difference then? Why does it matter if he prevents destruction via hugging the cycle or the realms, if both can destroy the universe then any way you cut it Reio is holding back universal destructive power. Breaking the balance would just be like sticking your foot out and tripping Reio so he drops it. Creating an imbalance doesn't discredit anything.

And again idk why it's the he either stabilizes one or the other, or it's stabilizing both inherently makes the feat less impressive. Like it doesn't matter. Let's say I have 1 million souls, where they in total can destroy the universe, I can either destroy the souls one at a time (what the Quincies were doing not inherently anything), or control the entirety of them (what is being argued Reio does). Would controlling and maintaining 100% of a universal destructive energy not be universal still?

Idk if this addresses Duedate's point as I could be misinterpreting his point entirely. But then again as everyone said, it doesn't matter what Reio is we still have Yhwach's statements supported by Prime Reio's feat.

"several of the non-valuable points being repeated in the process that were already discussed and addressed" ~akm

Yessir, you're right, that's on me, I should've only responded to the points you deem important and unconcluded, I should've been able to read your mind and know which points they were, that's all me, my apologies.

Sarcasm aside, it has been fun strengthening my Bleach debating skills and knowledge, and as many of y'all have you can always contact me on discord to discuss or debate Bleach scaling.

Who knows maybe I'll make a universal Bleach CRT down the line (also working on some Naruto god tier stuff that I might shoot the ***** with), I do have new and better arguments, but that's for a later time.

They clearly didn’t read Arcs post. Literally debunks the logic it was done with Almighty via the raws...
They refused to entertain the teachings of Jesus because he spoke a feared truth. I never expected it to get read in it's entirety but composed it nonetheless, the majority of people (not majority of staff) agree with me because of it, so I think on some level it's useful.

Has yhwach's feat been debunked as "non scaleable"
If you're talking about debunking the notion that Yhwach doesn't scale to destruction feats, I think my doc debunks that notion.

How would one stabilize universes with fate hax
You don't when it's stated you stabilize with raw power and never stated via hax.

Why is it still being argued that this doesn’t scale to their stats. One is even asking for quotes of them saying their attacks have more use more power than passively holding the worlds.

Yhwach’s dead has enough energy to hold the world forever. Why is this being argued this energy is most of his power.
Almost like Kenpachi implies that your passive feats <<< your stats.

For all curious I think DDM summarized staff opinion well "opposition makes good points but I still don't see it scaling to physicals unless directly told so". I think this won't be far off from the final verdict.

It appears I activated the trap card of "after reading these I agree with Kukui FRA" my life points are dropping to 0.

I'll take my small W of having the most liked post on the thread as of the last time I viewed it tho 👀

I still think in a neutral environment (where staff opinion isn't inherently > user opinion) I can out debate any staff member on Bleach tho, my ego is undamaged lmao.
 
Because they read probably only half of the arguments and they think only stabilization is where the tiering come from.
 
I sorta get the argument about whataboutism but why should some verses be held to a higher standards than others, as warren stated, Goku is not only 3-A but several hundreds of times above baseline off of statements, Why can't bleach, with just as many statements be 3-A
 
They still think Stabilization is the main feat for anyone besides weakened SK.

Prime gets his rating from creating everything with his nigh-omnipotent power, Weakened for stabilizing, and Yhwach was going to merge the worlds into 1 just like Mundus.
The feat I linked wasn't Mundus', it was Agrosax.

Mundus' feat was only considered 3-A via WoG, but someone found tweets of the creator making trolley posts to power scalers asking these questions, so the legitimacy was revoked.
 
My mistake.

Still they’re saying they don’t agree with it scaling to stats. Did they forget the entire reason Kukui even argued it in in his posts? He argued The Almighty had some sort of separate tiering using the novel and the manga.

Arc literally debunks this with the Japanese raws that state Reio did it with his literal “Almighty” power. He even shows the difference between Kanji involving the use of “Almighty”. They’re still going on about how it doesn’t scale when the core of that argument was debunked.

One of them even says stabilization rating would be on Ichigo’s profile as well. Which literally makes 0 sense whatsoever seeding as he’s never stabilized anything and the 2nd point within the document even says so.
 
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My mistake.

Still they’re saying they don’t agree with it scaling to stats. Did they forget the entire reason Kukui even argued it in in his posts? He argued The Almighty had some sort of separate tiering using the novel and the manga.

Arc literally debunks this with the Japanese raws that state Reio did it with his literal “Almighty” power. He even shows the difference between Kanji involving the use of “Almighty”. They’re still going on about how it doesn’t scale when the core of that argument was debunked.

One of them even says stabilization rating would be on Ichigo’s profile as well. Which literally makes 0 sense whatsoever seeding as he’s never stabilized anything and he 2nd point within the document even says so.
Every argument that "it doesn't scale" can be debunked by arc's doc so much it hurts
 
Not going to agree or disagree with this entire proposal of downgrades/upgrades, but if you created an entire page explaining how certain kinds of feats are going to be evaluated, then you should not be evaluating feats for a certain verse on a case-by-case basis.

You should check that feat to see if it meets (or matches) the criteria for the guideline that is written for a specific kind of feat relative to other similar feats from different verses.
 
  • To figure out what merging life and death mean, we must first understand how they came to be as separate concepts. In CFYOW III it is stated, その全能の力を「楔」として、五人は新たな世界の基盤を創り上げた。尸魂界、現世、虚圏。 This translates directly to “With that almighty power as the wedge, the five created the foundations of the new world. Soul Society, Living World, Hueco Mundo.” or more nicely and filling in the context “With Reio’s almighty power, they created Soul Society, World of the Living, and Hueco Mundo.” I’ll break down this translation below.
  • その means that, 全能 means almighty or omnipotent (I chose to use almighty as it is clearly a play on The Almighty), and の connects the kanji 力 which means power to almighty/omnipotent. “That almighty/omnipotent power” and it’s important to keep in mind that they aren’t directly referring to The Almighty as when they do it is normally accompanied by the kanji for all-knowing. In this case they are merely calling Reio’s power vastly immense while using wordplay to reference The Almighty.
  • を is a verb particle, 楔 is the kanji for wedge/link/lynchpin/bond, として is used to indicate the roll of something. In this case Reio’s almighty power is serving the roll as the wedge or tool that is able to perform said creation, “as the wedge”. It’s like they’re drawing a comparison between how Reio’s power makes jobs easier like modern tools do today (i.e. lever and pulley systems).
  • 五人 means 5 people, は is a topic marker particle, 新たな is the adjective for new, 世界 is the noun for world/universe (for reasons stated in depth above it is in clear indication of the entire Bleach universe). の is a connecting particle for possession, and 基盤 is the kanji for foundation. Put together it is “the Five [insert verb here] the new world’s/universe’s foundation”, it should also be abundantly clear that when it says the Five did this it is more so saying the Nobles helped outline the project while Reio actually did the project. After all it was all possible thanks to Reio’s omnipotent power.
  • を is a verb particle 創り上げた is the past tense of the verb to construct/to create/to build/etc, “created”.
  • 尸魂界 is Soul Society, 現世 is Living World, 虚圏 is Hueco Mundo. These are the so called “foundation of the new world”. As we know Hueco Mundo is a “paradise” for Hollows, and SS and WotL serve to split life and death and form the locations for the cycle of rebirth (the Soul Cycle) to occur, splitting life and death.
  • To conclude we see that Reio and the Nobles were able to create the three realms thanks to the almighty power possessed by Reio, finally making the world dynamic with the cycle of life and death. The point being that split life and death, the universe had to be split into physical (Living World) and spiritual (Soul Society). So, when Yhwach is talking about merging life and death and everything back into one pile of mush, he is talking about reversing Prime Reio’s creation feat. This supports Yhwach being universal as the original feat was universal thus it reckons the reverse of the feat would be as well.
It’s literally right there clear as day as to why it scales.
 
Not going to agree or disagree with this entire proposal of downgrades/upgrades, but if you created an entire page explaining how certain kinds of feats are going to be evaluated, then you should not be evaluating feats for a certain verse on a case-by-case basis.

You should check that feat to see if it meets (or matches) the criteria for the guideline that is written for a specific kind of feat relative to other similar feats from different verses.

This on so many levels, bleach is being held to ridiculously high standards no other verse is applied to
 
"And he would still need the pool of energy to stabilize everything"

Is it that hard to see sk, Yhwach possesses an endless amount of energy that they can use attacks of that caliber along with maintaining the cosmos simultaneously which they do by existing? Like lol
 
This on so many levels, bleach is being held to ridiculously high standards no other verse is applied to
I was about to mention that infamous Star Wars planet level feat (Infant of Shaa), and whether containing an artifact that was about to go off could also be a stabilization feat, since you are merely defusing the artifact before it went off instead of containing the explosion after the artifact actually exploded.
 
I was about to mention that infamous Star Wars planet level feat (Infant of Shaa), and whether containing an artifact that was about to go off could also be a stabilization feat, since you are merely defusing the artifact before it went off instead of containing the explosion after the artifact actually exploded.
Goku can be several hundreds of times baseline universal off of statements but bleach can’t be universal with just as many statements
 
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