Ben 10: Removing Vilgax Attacks and Cosmic Destruction from Mainline Canon [ACCEPTED]

[Lonkitt]

Me and some others were looking into getting profiles for the game versions of Ben Tennyson up because it seemed fun. While we were doing so, the topic of Vilgax Attacks and Cosmic Destruction being labelled as canon on VSBW was brought up. Currently, VSBW considers both of those games to be canon to the show, when in reality, they should be considered their own separate continuities. To remove any doubt from peoples' minds about this, I'm gonna cover as much as I can

Ultimately, my advocation here is for Vilgax Attacks and Cosmic Destruction to be removed from the Main Canon, and instead, the versions of the characters from those games can have their own dedicated profiles [ex. Ben Tennyson (Vilgax Attacks), Ben Tennyson (Cosmic Destruction)] that scale to their own feats (such as Evil Way Big's High 5-A feat, which has been calculated and approved), which I would be interested in handling actually

NOTE: And just to specify since Firestorm was confused...This means separating them from the mainline multiverse as well. I thought this was obvious, but apparently I need to specify that

Let's get into it

Referencing the show DOESN'T make it Canon

Let's go over the "justifications" for these two games being canon to the show on the current cosmology page

Vilgax Attack: Ben, Gwen, and Kevin are amazed that Mor Otesi is a real, which they thought was an legend in show, also mentioned in the books, it actually exists.

This is fine and all, but....why would this matter...? They thought it was a legend in the show and the game is just referencing that. It's not like the reveal in the game is ever brought back up in the show to confirm the game is canon. Also, the book's confirmation doesn't support VA being canon either. It just tells us that Mor Otesi is real

Cosmic Destruction: Psyphon tells about Pluto was destroyed long time ago, and this was shown in the show. Albedo stated that Ben had previously blown up the Omnitrix and taken the Ultimatrix from Albedo, also this was shown in the show.

Alright, cool, but again, this is just a case of a game referencing the show it was based on...doesn't mean it's canon. What else were they gonna reference? The same thing can apply to a lot of video games based on comic book movies where they're gonna reference stuff from the film, but it's far from canon

If we went by that logic, then Marvel vs. Capcom and Shattered Dimensions would be considered Marvel 616 and Ultimate Marvel canon for explicitly referencing comic stories like Civil War (616) or that arc where Spider-Man and the X-Men fought Deadpool on Krakoa Island (Ultimate)

Yes, the games referenced their source material. That makes sense. But the shows don't reference the games so...why should callbacks to the show be treated as canon?


Contradictions

It's not as if the lack of references to the games in the shows is the only thing holding back these games from being mainline canon. There's other aspects as well. I'll cover each game and how they deviate from the main canon

Vilgax Attacks

• After using ten transformations against Mister Smoothie in a row, the Omnitrix powers down to reboot. Azmuth states that due to the amount of quick changes made, the Omnitrix needs time to recharge before Ben has access to all of his aliens again. This is explicitly a rule made for the game that blatantly contradicts the rules of the Omnitrix in canon. In the show, the Omntrix never loses aliens due to back-to-back transformations/overuse. As seen in "Back With a Vengeance", a crappier, less advanced version of the watch doesn't face this same problem when rapidly switching between forms. Why would this advanced version of the Omnitrix run into issues and even LOSE ALIENS if the less advanced version of the watch doesn't when rapidly switching? This just points to Vilgax Attacks being set in its own continuity
• Ben can just summon Ship via whistling and calling for him seemingly at any time he chooses, even though Ship is supposed to be chilling with Julie
• Upon reaching Vulpin, Ben says "I've always wondered what my aliens' home planets were like!", as if to imply he's never visited any of his aliens' home planets. In the main canon, he's already visited them prior to AF chronologically. There's also the fact that he's visited Galvan Prime (Galvan Homeworld) and Galvan B (Galvanic Mechamorph Homeworld) during the Classic era as revealed in Omniverse flashbacks. Even if you want to view this as a retroactive change, Omniverse takes the same priority of canon as OS and UAF, so this ABSOLUTELY supports the idea that Vilgax Attacks is set in its own canon. Either way, this is a smoking gun
• Ben's encounter and specific dialogue with Ghostfreak blatantly contradicts Ghostfreak's true first appearance/instance of escaping in AF, which is the episode titled "Ghost Town"
• The entire premise of Vilgax attacking and Ben facing him just can't fit into the timeline. Vilgax Attacks claims it has been a long time since he's seen been Ben, with the portrayal of their meeting in this scene seemingly implying they haven't met since the Classic era. This can't be set in early Season 3 because Ghost Town already contradicts Vilgax Attacks, given Ghostfreak's appearance in the game and how Vilgax gets sent to the Null Void at the end of the game. This also can't be set before Season 3 because S31E treats their meeting like they haven't met since the Classic era. Hell, in the BOSS BATTLE WITH VILGAX, he even says "Time has made you weak, boy! You cannot stop me this time, Ben 10!", as if to imply that from his perspective, Ben's rustier than his 10 year old self (that's a debatable opinion of course, but the fact that he's saying this specifically makes it clear that this is their first time meeting since Ben was 10 years old in the game's continuity). No matter how you slice it, the game's premise alone ensures that Vilgax Attacks can't occur in the same continuity as mainline Ben 10

Cosmic Destruction

• Jimmy somehow manages to spam call Ben enough times to where he can't transform with the Ultimatrix. Receiving normal messages through the Ultimatrix has never presented this issue in canon
• Ben's encounter and specific dialogue with Enoch blatantly contradicts Enoch's true first appearance in UA, which is in the episode titled *The Purge"
• When describing the power of Evil Way Big, Azmuth claims that the power of the Ultimatrix he himself created may not be enough to stand up to it. This statement is really strange. Yes, Azmuth made the foundations for the Ultimatrix, but it was Albedo who finished the version Ben wields, the latter of which Azmuth is saying can't match up to Evil Way Big. This feels very out of line with how Azmuth calls the Ultimatrix "pathetic" and basically way too dangerous to the user when inspecting it in canon. It just seems out of place if you wanted to argue this game as canon to the show
• Ben's encounter and specific dialogue with Captain Nemesis blatantly contradicts "To Catch a Falling Star", as the latter treats "Hero Time" as the last time Carl was out of federal prison
• Evil Way Big destroys the Moon Intergalatic Communications Centre. At the end of Cosmic Destruction, Albedo is sent to the Moon and beaten up by Lu. UA fails to address how Albedo returned from this (and let's be honest, Lu's not gonna just beat him up and let him go free after Albedo destroyed the Moon base)
  • Albedo can breathe on the Moon despite the fact his body is the same as Ben's, who needed to have a suit to traverse the Moon with oxygen in canon (this would also imply Space Survival for CD Ben, so that's interesting). And no, the Paradox "question for another time" gag during that one scene on the Moon is not a viable counter to this. That's obviously a joke and as shown in UAF, Ben can't breathe in space

It's made beyond clear that the idea of these games being canon was never taken into account, nor did they ever take priority in the main canon


What changes?

It's actually pretty simple to apply this. We would just remove the mentions of Evil Way Big from Way Big and Albedo's profile, as well as removing Vilgax Attacks and Cosmic Destruction from the canon list on the cosmology page

Like I said before, I'm interested in making pages for Vilgax Attacks Ben and Cosmic Destruction Ben, given they're in different continuities (and I have a habit of making profiles for video game versions of characters). Again, I must stress that they would scale to their own feats within their own games. We can't cross scale because both games to the show's feats, as the games make it clear the events of prior Ben 10 content only happened to some unspecific degree. We cannot in any way qualify what exactly happened, and given how these games are non-canon, it just makes more sense for them to scale to their own feats. But I can't dedicate time to that unless a verdict is made on this revision


Thoughts?


Agree: 18 (Dark-Carioca, Dalesean027, Mr._Propeller_Hat, Accelerated_Evolution, DaReaperMan, TheOrangeGuy09, AmonInChains, Shadyboi0, Zanesucksatlife, Aolphl, KingTempest, Bimbitesthedust, Dark_Soul20189, Robo432343, Kellex, Robo432343, Emirp sumitpo, Apollonir.Scale)

Disagree: 0

Neutral: 0

 

[Dark-Carioca]

Yeah, it's always felt odd to me to assume these were canon in any way. You can add me to the 'Agree' bunch.

 

[Dalesean027]

This is fine by me

 

[Mr._Propeller_Hat]

I guess this makes sense, even though I'm not all that versed with Ben 10's lore much

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Yeah, i 100% agree with this, the arguments showed for the games to be canon are nonsense and the giant list of contradictions are the last nail in the coffin.

 

[KLOL506]

@Firestorm808 @Reiner04 @Qawsedf234

 

[DaReaperMan]

I agree

 

[Firestorm808]

The narrator in Ben 10 makes it clear that stories can be told in different ways, with various beginnings, endings, and unexpected twists while showcasing different media, such as comics. This idea is further supported by Professor Paradox twice. This means that the comics, novels, and video games aren’t separate from the franchise—they’re just different versions of Ben’s journey, as long as the story doesn’t contradict the established franchise on a multiversal scale. Ben 10 already explores time travel and alternate realities, so it makes sense that all these stories exist as part of the branching timestream, each presenting a unique take on Ben’s adventures.

Attempts to scale or use content from outside material to the show will be under scrutiny of compatibility with the primary source material.

To reiterate, we consider all media as being part of the wider branching multiverse. However, using this outside media to apply to the show is judged for compatibility with said show.

In regards to the games, we don't consider them as literally part of the show's specific timeline, but there were little to no compatibility issues that elements of the games would be comparable to the show version. I believe that the issue is not clearly defining this within the profile justifications.

An example would be Show Rick Sanchez being comparable to the alternate Comic Rick Sanchez.

 

[Lonkitt]

In regards to the games, we don't consider them as literally part of the show's specific timeline, but there were little to no compatibility issues that elements of the games would be comparable to the show version.

Except I pointed out that there literally are compatibility issues, such as with the Omnitrix and Ultimatrix acting differently in both games compared to the show, as well as Albedo breathing in space

This also isn't addressing the fact that it's only these two games being justified as "canon" only due to the games themselves referencing things from the show...something that all the games do, and those games are also non-canon to the main canon

Ergo, both of these games should not be listed as canon or applicable to the main canon

 

[Lonkitt]

To reiterate, we consider all media as being part of the wider branching multiverse. However, using this outside media to apply to the show is judged for compatibility with said show.

The clips you linked also say nothing about the games. A scene being presented as a comic doesn't support this either

 

[Firestorm808]

Except I pointed out that there literally are compatibility issues, such as with the Omnitrix and Ultimatrix acting differently in both games compared to the show, as well as Albedo breathing in space

This also isn't addressing the fact that it's only these two games being justified as "canon" only due to the games themselves referencing things from the show...something that all the games do, and those games are also non-canon to the main canon

Ergo, both of these games should not be listed as canon or applicable to the main canon

To clarify, "compatibility with the primary source material" is in regards to abilities and mechanics. As they are different timelines, we're not going to focus on conflicting narrative events, that's why they are different timelines.

Let's say comic Heatblast demonstrates a fire ability that wasn't in the show but is reasonably possible for the show Heatblast to perform.

However, the comic OS Omnitrix being zapped by electricity to cause time travel is not reasonably possible for the show Omnitrix to perform.

 

[Lonkitt]

To clarify, "compatibility with the primary source material" is in regards to abilities and mechanics. As they are different timelines, we're not going to focus on conflicting narrative events, that's why they are different timelines.

Let's say comic Heatblast demonstrates a fire ability that wasn't in the show but is reasonably possible for the show Heatblast to perform.

However, the comic OS Omnitrix being zapped by electricity to cause time travel is not reasonably possible for the show Omnitrix to perform.

Except once again, these are not reasonably possible.

1. OS Ben 10 shows us that rapidly changing between forms should not result in aliens being outright lost while the Omnitrix recharges. This is not possible in canon
2. UAF never once implies that getting spam messaged or called would straight up make the Ultimatrix go "Nope, sorry, can't transform, you're getting calls". This is not possible in canon
3. Albedo breathes in space while using Ben's body, the same body that CANNOT BREATHE IN SPACE IN THE SHOW. This is not possible in canon

I mean this as respectfully as possible, but labelling these games as canon and shrugging off clear contradictions feels like cherry picking. Additionally, you haven't provided any proof that the narrator's statement referred to the games as well

I can't really count this as a solid basis for a counter-argument

 

[Firestorm808]

I mean this as respectfully as possible, but labelling these games as canon and shrugging off clear contradictions feels like cherry picking. Additionally, you ahven't provided any proof that the narrator's statement referred to the games as well

But we haven't been labeling them as "canon" to the show's timeline. We explicitly refer to them as being different timelines.

Regarding the statement, I was just copy-pasting the excerpt from the Cosmology page.

If you want to propose that abilities/powers X, Y, and Z from Media A shouldn't be possible in show, that is a different discussion.

 

[Lonkitt]

But we haven't been labeling them as "canon" to the show's timeline. We explicitly refer to them as being different timelines.

Regarding the statement, I was just copy-pasting the excerpt from the Cosmology page.

If you want to propose that abilities/powers X, Y, and Z from Media A shouldn't be possible for the in show, that is a different discussion.

But you have content such as Evil Way Big on Albedo's page. As in TV Show Albedo. So the wiki is in fact treating these games like TV Show Canon

Again, you haven't shown proof of the narrator saying "oh yeah these games are in the multiverse" and currently, the cosmology page only justifies them as canon to the timelines because "Oh, they mention the show". By that logic, every piece of non-show media can be considered canon to Ben 10, but that obviously isn't the case

I'm not saying certain abilities shouldn't be applicable. I'm saying Vilgax Attacks and Cosmic Destruction all in all should not be considered canon or applicable in any way, shape, or form to the mainline canon. Period. Until I see any solid counter-arguments, you're just repeating yourself

 

[Firestorm808]

But you have content such as Evil Way Big on Albedo's page. As in TV Show Albedo. So the wiki is in fact treating these games like TV Show Canon

Following the past agreements on the different media, pages using non-show media were meant to be revised to account for being "should be comparable to X version" of themselves. This is a mistake on the changes not being applied properly.

 

[Lonkitt]

Following the past agreements on the different media, pages using non-show media were meant to be revised to account for being "should be comparable to X version" of themselves. This is a mistake on the changes not being applied properly.

So in other words, you are agreeing that Vilgax Attacks and Cosmic Destruction content should be removed from the pages and treated as their own things? Because you're saying that content being on mainline pages is a mistake

This isn't me twisting your words. I'm just pointing out that you can't play on both sides of the argument here. Either it's canon or it ain't

 

[Lonkitt]

Additionally, nothing pages up the show versions being comparable to the games

Again, I'm seeing a huge lack of "the narrator said the games were canon to the multiverse" evidence....

 

[Firestorm808]

So in other words, you are agreeing that Vilgax Attacks and Cosmic Destruction content should be removed from the pages and treated as their own things? Because you're saying that content being on mainline pages is a mistake

Yes, non-show content being used in the show profiles need to be labeled as such, being comparable to the alternate counterpart.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Agree here as well

 

[Firestorm808]

Additionally, nothing pages up the show versions being comparable to the games

Again, I'm seeing a huge lack of "the narrator said the games were canon to the multiverse" evidence....

Non-show content not being labeled properly is an error regarding applications of the revisions.

Again, no one said they are canon to the show timeline, not even in the cosmology page.

 

[Lonkitt]

Yes, non-show content being used in the show profiles need to be labeled as such, being comparable to the alternate counterpart.

No, I'm not asking if it needs to be labelled on canon pages. I was asking if you agree with the removal of non-show content from all mainline pages period

Another thing, I don't think you read my full post because I literally addressed how the events of the show are only known to have vaguely happened at best in the games. We can't assume that they scale to the same feats and vice-versa. And once more, you have provided zero evidence of the narrator saying the games are in the multiverse

Please don't make me repeat myself here because right now, this is just coming off as you cherry picking parts from different games

 

[Lonkitt]

Again, no one said they are canon to the show, not even in the cosmology page.

The games are quite literally listed under "canonicity" with the justifications being "they reference the show"

Yes, the cosmology page is calling them canon

 

[AmonInChains]

 

[DaReaperMan]

Again, no one said they are canon to the show timeline, not even in the cosmology page.

hmmm...

Wait a minute... Zoom in! Enhance!

Now what is this?

 

[AmonInChains]

Agree with OP btw

 

[Firestorm808]

No, I'm not asking if it needs to be labelled on canon pages. I was asking if you agree with the removal of non-show content from all mainline pages period

Another thing, I don't think you read my full post because I literally addressed how the events of the show are only known to have vaguely happened at best in the games. We can't assume that they scale to the same feats and vice-versa. And once more, you have provided zero evidence of the narrator saying the games are in the multiverse

Please don't make me repeat myself here because right now, this is just coming off as you cherry picking parts from different games

Following previous revisions, you can speak to the people who made those OPs. However, I would lean against a blanket removal. A proper vetting of material that's not reasonably possible by the show is preferred.

@Hellformer IIRC you made the initial proposal on how we treat different media. Your input is appreciated.

 

[Shadyboi0]

Agree with the premise, it is very compelling and i don't see a single fault in it.

 

[Firestorm808]

The games are quite literally listed under "canonicity" with the justifications being "they reference the show"

Yes, the cosmology page is calling them canon

The section of the page discusses Canonicity in general. Only a few items are labeled as Secondary or Tertiary Canon to the Prime Timeline.

We have not labeled the other media as Canon to the Prime Timeline.

 

[Lonkitt]

Following previous revisions, you can speak to the people who made those OPs. However, I would lean against a blanket removal. A proper vetting of material that's not reasonably possible by the show is preferred.

Okay, so you've just continued to not provide me with actual justifications for your stance

You say the two games are part of the multiverse, but never show the narrator claiming as such
You say the two games aren't considered canon on the pages, but the cosmology page literally claims they are
You say the two games aren't being judged off the show's narrative, yet the only justifications on the cosmology page are "they mention the show"
You say the two games were accepted as canon because they're compatible with the show, but in terms of power/ability functionality and story narrative, they literally don't


When I ask you to provide evidence, you shrug and ask someone else to take over

It's for these reasons that I can't count your disagreement in this thread for the final count because you have quite literally refuted none of my points

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

I agree.
Non canon should get it's own page (Ben 10 games page)

 

[Firestorm808]

hmmm...

Wait a minute... Zoom in! Enhance!

Now what is this?

They are not labeled as canon to the Prime Timeline like other items.

 

[Aolphl]

Count me as agree

 

[Lonkitt]

They are not labeled as canon to the Prime Timeline like other items.

They are literally within a section of the page that says "canon" with nothing specifying them as secondary or tertiary or whatever

Doesn't matter either way as I am advocating for them to be outright non-canon, no ifs, ands, or buts

 

[Firestorm808]

Okay, so you've just continued to not provide me with actual justifications for your stance

You say the two games are part of the multiverse, but never show the narrator claiming as such
You say the two games aren't considered canon on the pages, but the cosmology page literally claims they are
You say the two games aren't being judged off the show's narrative, yet the only justifications on the cosmology page are "they mention the show"
You say the two games were accepted as canon because they're compatible with the show, but in terms of power/ability functionality and story narrative, they literally don't


When I ask you to provide evidence, you shrug and ask someone else to take over

It's for these reasons that I can't count your disagreement in this thread for the final count because you have quite literally refuted none of my points

Dude, chill. I'm just recounting what was agreed on prior threads.

There was a previous revision regarding non-show media being part of the wider multiverse. If you disagree with this, that's fine. You can make a thread reversing that.

I was not directly involved in the creation of that proposal. That's why I referred to the OP.

Also, I never gave a vote for anything.

 

[Lonkitt]

There was a previous revision regarding non-show media being part of the wider multiverse. If you disagree with this, that's fine. You can make a thread reversing that.

That's pretty much what this thread is, just for the games

Also, I never gave a vote for anything.

Alright

 

[KingTempest]

The premise makes sense for me

 

[Firestorm808]

That's pretty much what this thread is, just for the games

Can you clarify in the OP that you are proposing that they are not part of the multiverse as a whole.

As it was previously agreed that they are not from the Prime Timeline, this is where the confusion on the matter happened.

 

[Lonkitt]

Can you clarify in the OP that you are proposing that they are not part of the multiverse as a whole.

As it was previously agreed that they are not from the Prime Timeline, this is where the confusion on the matter happened.

The fact that I'm saying in the OP that they are in their own continuity, should get their own pages, and scale to their own feats should more or less say that...but I guess I'll throw in that specification

 

[Thermor]

It's for these reasons that I can't count your disagreement in this thread for the final count because you have quite literally refuted none of my points

I'm pretty sure staffs can give their input agree/disagree despite the lack of refutations they provided.

 

[Lonkitt]

I'm pretty sure staffs can give their input agree/disagree despite the lack of refutations they provided.

Not if they literally ignore the arguments or don't provide the evidence they claim to have refuting said arguments, which Firestorm did above before passing on the job of explaining things to me to Hellformer

Either way, the links from the cosmology make no mention of the games being in the multiverse so....yeah, not really seeing what evidence can be pulled up for that