Ben 10: Removing Vilgax Attacks and Cosmic Destruction from Mainline Canon [ACCEPTED]

[Lonkitt]

Also the fact that she says "but it wasn't always possible" tells us that these just really shouldn't be seen as canon. It's pretty clear IMO

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Is it not working for you guys? It works for me. Maybe try again?

It works for me too.

I guess it's a local issue.

 

[Lonkitt]

Wait hol' up why is everyone ignoring the part under that where she says...

PS. I personally LOVE a ton of the stuff I came up with in that particular story!!! But it isn't canon.

She straight up says it ain't canon

 

[Hellformer]

I'm arguing that VA and CD are in their own continuities. They aren't in the the multiverse or anything like that. They scale to their own feats etc etc

The narrator in Ben 10 makes it clear that stories can be told in different ways, with various beginnings, endings, and unexpected twists while showcasing different media, such as comics. This idea is further supported by Professor Paradox twice. This means that the comics, novels, and video games aren’t separate from the franchise—they’re just different versions of Ben’s journey, as long as the story doesn’t contradict the established franchise on a multiversal scale. Ben 10 already explores time travel and alternate realities, so it makes sense that all these stories exist as part of the branching timestream, each presenting a unique take on Ben’s adventures.

 

[Lonkitt]

@Hellformer That video only shows a motion comic. It says nothing about games, so I don't see why it should apply here

 

[Lonkitt]

She straight up says it ain't canon

Really though, why were people glossing over this...?

This actually does more to prove it isn't canon than to say it is canon

 

[Lort15]

@Hellformer That video only shows a motion comic. It says nothing about games, so I don't see why it should apply here

Paradox actually mentions the part about Albedo transforming into Alien X and trapped in it like over a year wouldn't that make the DS version of VA canon as well

 

[GeneralSol16]

What? No, that's not it at all, why are you creating strawmen here?

I thoroughly explained why Vilgax Attacks and Cosmic Destruction aren't canon...you're just ignoring them. Stop twisting my arguments

They are not for the Prime Timeline, they are for the Multiverse.

Dead link

1. Ben has done it that fast. In fact, he did it faster in "Back with a Vengeance"

Not remotely as fast, with much less changes in a wider period or time.

1. They aren't game mechanics if it's literally explained in the cutscene, which is treated like the lore/narrative. Please open the links next time

They are mechanics when you start to think them through.
Or straight up PIS.

1. Wildvines are born on Xenon too, ergo, it counts as a home world. Also, Ben would definitely know, Secret of the Omnitrix was a pretty damn big event in his life and he's been keeping in touch with Max, his grandfather the greatest plumber of all time, for years. Omniverse makes it so Ben visited Galvan Prime in the past. A friend also recently pointed out to me that he visited the area where Galvan B, where Galvanic Mechamorphs come from (which I feel silly for not mentioning too). Either way, it debunks the idea that Ben during AF has never visited his aliens' homeworlds up until that point

1. Eh? Xenon was never their planet. Not even in the OS.
2. That's something that was incorporated later.
AF makes it clear that the last fight between Ben and Vilgax was in the movie, something that we know it's not true anymore. Does it mean now that ep isn't canon? Lmao

 

[Lonkitt]

Paradox actually mentions the part about Albedo transforming into Alien X and trapped in it like over a year wouldn't that make the DS version of VA canon as well

Yes, we've established that


But that's the DS version, not the main version that's referenced on the cosmology blog

We have no reason to assume Paradox meant ALL games, that's overly generous, especially with the contradictions I brought up and the fact that Charlotte has basically said these games tried to close to canon, but aren't canon

 

[Hellformer]

@Hellformer That video only shows a motion comic. It says nothing about games, so I don't see why it should apply here

The reason why games are included over here is Paradox's statement about Albedo transforming into Alien X and getting stuck in it (which is a game event) and such kind of alternate events branch off ad infinitum. Therefore the comics as well as games should be a part of the the branching Timestream unless and until it doesn't contradict the established verse on a multiversal scale (for example: Ben 10 reboot).

 

[Lonkitt]

They are not for the Prime Timeline, they are for the Multiverse.

Not remotely as fast, with much less changes in a wider period or time.

They are mechanics when you start to think them through.
Or straight up PIS.

1. Eh? Xenon was never their planet. Not even in the OS.
2. That's something that was incorporated later.
AF makes it clear that the last fight between Ben and Vilgax was in the movie, something that we know it's not true anymore. Does it mean now that ep isn't canon? Lmao

You've being very disingenuous here


Yes, there are Wildvines born on Xenon...that is shown in Secret of the Omnitrix

No, they aren't mechanics because it's literally a story explanation for why he can't transform a ton in the game. Sorry man, we consider stuff like that to be canon to the narrative here on the wiki

Also...when's the last time you saw Ben vs Kevin and Vilgax in the Null Void? He switches even faster there than he does in that Vilgax Attacks scene. Seriously, rewatch that part in the finale of the season

The reason why games are included over here is Paradox's statement about Albedo transforming into Alien X and getting stuck in it (which is a game event) and such kind of alternate events branch off ad infinitum. Therefore the comics as well as games should be a part of the the branching Timestream unless and until it doesn't contradict the established verse on a multiversal scale (for example: Ben 10 reboot).

I'm sorry, but this feels like a very generous assumption with very little backing it up on the side of the games. You're gonna need some stronger evidence for why ALL games are in the multiverse, because everything I'm seeing points to the main version of Vilgax Attacks and Cosmic Destruction being their own things

 

[Lonkitt]

Also at this point you guys need to realize that Charlotte's statement is not doing any lifting for the games being canon. She's more or less saying "I tried, but they're not canon"

 

[Robo432343]

I AGREE

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

(And I mentioned game profiles for this literally non canon games have them )

 

[Lort15]

(And I mentioned game profiles for this literally non canon games have them )

yeah we don't even have profiles from games or alternative timelines althought i wouldn't want them to get added we already have enough profiles to fix

 

[GeneralSol16]

You've being very disingenuous here.

Eh? Dude, the games aren't canon to the Prime Timeline, we agree on that, but none of your points affect the Muktiverse.

Yes, there are Wildvines born on Xenon...that is shown in Secret of the Omnitrix

Sure, show me a scan saying they were born there.

No, they aren't mechanics because it's literally a story explanation for why he can't transform a ton in the game. Sorry man, we consider stuff like that to be canon to the narrative here on the wiki

That's the point, PIS that work for the mechanics and practicality.

Also...when's the last time you saw Ben vs Kevin and Vilgax in the Null Void? He switches even faster there than he does in that Vilgax Attacks scene. Seriously, rewatch that part in the finale of the season

That was with Master Control.
In AF Azmuth said that Ben's non stopping transformations could break the watch, something that is referenced in the game itself.

I'm sorry, but this feels like a very generous assumption with very little backing it up on the side of the games. You're gonna need some stronger evidence for why ALL games are in the multiverse, because everything I'm seeing points to the main version of Vilgax Attacks and Cosmic Destruction being their own things

None of your affect their existence in the Multiverse I showed that they can be part of it as AUs, you have not.

 

[Hellformer]

Yes, there are Wildvines born on Xenon...that is shown in Secret of the Omnitrix

Hmmm I like your confidence for such claims.

I'm sorry, but this feels like a very generous assumption with very little backing it up on the side of the games. You're gonna need some stronger evidence for why ALL games are in the multiverse, because everything I'm seeing points to the main version of Vilgax Attacks and Cosmic Destruction being their own things.

Paradox said that there's always a different way to tell a story i.e if something didn't happen in the Prime timeline, an alternative is always possible.Events branch off ad infinitum based on alternatives to what we see. The term ad infinitum itself means "for ever; again and again" i.e. alternative events keep branching. The only non canon stories would be reboot, because it contradicts the main canon on a huge scale, such as existence of 16-17 timelines in the Omniverse.

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

yeah we don't even have profiles from games or alternative timelines althought i wouldn't want them to get added we already have enough profiles to fix

Lmao a few more couldn't hurt to add but I ain't saying now somewhere 100 + years in the future

 

[Lort15]

Lmao a few more couldn't hurt to add but I ain't saying now somewhere 100 + years in the future

no pls i don't wanna live for 100 years more to fix those broken pages

 

[Hellformer]

Hmmm I like your confidence for such claims.

@GeneralSol16

 

[Reiner04]

And what the hell people? Before spamming "Agree FRA", you should wait for those who support the Verse.

If only they were as efficient in other aspects.

Chill. People agreeing because OP is clear and straightforward. If the evidence presented for the otherwise i am sure they will reconsider their vote.

Regarding the discussion, I do remember Ben's Omnitrix in Alien Force having the same issues as the Original Series and Omniverse Omnitrixes, timing out due to staying in the same alien form or changing forms too often. However, the show is inconsistent with that rule and those time limits. I also recall the author explaining it. I don't know though how much it helps.

Next, the head writer of these games have not just been a head writer of the show itself as well, but the games have been written to work under the same narrative and logic of the Prime Timeline, being able to fit in it, even tho not being "Canon", just as everything else written by her.
- https://archive.is/QfIKw

I'd not really take her word as she don't consider anything canon outside of the show as some strict general rule, regardless how faithful or how linked or what creators or even narration says.

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

no pls i don't wanna live for 100 years more to fix those broken pages

. You'll be reincarnated B4 they all get fixed

 

[Lonkitt]

That was with Master Control.
In AF Azmuth said that Ben's non stopping transformations could break the watch, something that is referenced in the game itself.

But losing aliens from it was never a risk and rapid transformation has never posed a risk, even with the first janky watch in OS. Why should it be a problem now?

And why would Master Control put a "resistance" or whatever on that? It's not like Master Control comes with battery saver mode LMAO

Hmmm I like your confidence for such claims.

And yet, we see them on Xenon...Yeah, I'm favouring what's shown in the film over a trading card any day

Reminder guys. The shows and movies take priority over trading cards and DVD statements

Also please don't be passive aggressive

Paradox said that there's always a different way to tell a story i.e if something didn't happen in the Prime timeline, an alternative is always possible.Events branch off ad infinitum based on alternatives to what we see. The term ad infinitum itself means "for ever; again and again" i.e. alternative events keep branching.

You're taking that statement a little too far. Just because he said "always" doesn't mean "every piece of Ben 10 media is in the multiverse because Paradox said always and forever and yadda yadda"

That was absolutely not the intention of that scene. It's just another way UAF expanded the mythos of Ben 10. It wasn't meant to cover their basis with the spin-off media

Chill. People agreeing because OP is clear and straightforward. If the evidence presented for the otherwise i am sure they will reconsider their vote.

Regarding the discussion, I do remember Ben's Omnitrix in Alien Force having the same issues as the Original Series and Omniverse Omnitrixes, timing out due to staying in the same alien form or changing forms too often. However, the show is inconsistent with that rule and those time limits. I also recall the author explaining it. I don't know though how much it helps

But losing aliens from overuse and rapid use was never a risk

Even with all of Ben 10's inconsistencies, this was never one that came up. Only in Vilgax Attacks

 

[Kellex]

This is like saying Super DB heroes should be considered canon because it takes place in DB when it's clear it's non canon:

I'm getting some serious deja vu from that low 1-c dragon ball crt

BUT yea if they say it ain't canon or tried to make it canon, but couldn't, then it can't be used.

 

[GeneralSol16]

If the evidence presented for the otherwise i am sure they will reconsider their vote.

We both know that's not true.

 

[Lonkitt]

That's the point, PIS that work for the mechanics and practicality.

If it's explained in the cutscene...it's useable. I don't want use to go back and forth on this, so we'll just have to agree to disagree

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

no pls i don't wanna live for 100 years more to fix those broken pages

Fixing bad pages for your favorite verses core:

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

I'm getting some serious deja vu from that low 1-c dragon ball crt

What do you think about that CRT?

BUT yea if they say it ain't canon or tried to make it canon, but couldn't, then it can't be used.

Right

 

[Hellformer]

And yet, we see them on Xenon...Yeah, I'm favouring what's shown in the film over a trading card any day

Yeah no that's a total ignorant behaviour.
You're assuming that existing on a planet = necessarily originating from that planet.
By the time of Omniverse, we were told that multiple Alien species live under the earth, so does that make them earthlings? Especially when their main species live somewhere else.
Be honest, did you even bother to watch the show? Or target it out of nowhere?

Reminder guys. The shows and movies take priority over trading cards and DVD statements

It has trademark of CN, go argue with the company and then let me know.

You're taking that statement a little too far. Just because he said "always" doesn't mean "every piece of Ben 10 media is in the multiverse because Paradox said always and forever and yadda yadda"

No I'm not, what does always even mean then? You're failing to apply basic logic over here. If alternate events are always possible by ad infinitum branching with game events included, it doesn't make sense for CD and VA to be completely outside the branching Timestream unless you prove to me that they contradict the cosmology (already given an example of such, right above)

But losing aliens from overuse and rapid use was never a risk.

Cough cough, feedback (don't tell me you don't even know that alien)

 

[GeneralSol16]

BUT yea if they say it ain't canon or tried to make it canon, but couldn't, then it can't be used.

Just to be sure
Can you please explain to me why his evidences prove they're not just an alternate timeline, thus making a not canon to Ben Prime?

 

[Lort15]

Cough cough, feedback (don't tell me you don't even know that alien)

plus geno-archatypes as well

 

[Hellformer]

plus geno-archatypes as well

Bro watched ten ben

 

[Lonkitt]

Yeah no that's a total ignorant behaviour.
You're assuming that existing on a planet = necessarily originating from that planet.
By the time of Omniverse, we were told that multiple Alien species live under the earth, so does that make them earthlings? Especially when their main species somewhere else.
Be honest, did you even bother to watch the show? Or target it out of nowhere?

Okay first off I've literally contributed to revisions threads in the past, why are you accusing me of having a hate boner all of a sudden?

Yes, I've watched the shows and the movies. I can't believe people are genuinely assuming I looked at the cosmology and said "grrrr....games" and decided to target you guys....

Wtf is with the hostility all of a sudden???

Wildvines were shown to be on Xenon in Secret of the Omnitrix were they not? Aliens can have more than one homeworld

I'm sorry that me saying this made you feel targeted jfc

It has trademark of CN, go argue with the company and then let me know.

Feats/show content over statements, that's all I'm saying

Plus, there's been weird statements from stuff like the cards and DVD stuff. Like how that one Ultimate Ben 10K bio said he only had 10K aliens which is a MASSIVE lie

No I'm not, what does always even mean then? You're failing to apply basic logic over here. If alternate events are always possible by ad infinitum branching with game events included, it doesn't make sense for CD and VA to be completely outside the branching Timestream unless you prove to me that they contradict the cosmology (already given an example of such, right above)

I can only explain it to you so many times before it gets repetitive man

Cough cough, feedback (don't tell me you don't even know that alien)

Mf that's PLUGMAN put some respect on his name

Okay but seriously, why are you on this "you never watched the show" agenda, please mellow out

 

[Lonkitt]

Bro watched ten ben

Brother I watched it while it was still AIRING Saturday mornings

(The first episode I watched was a questionable one but I got on track real quick after that)

 

[Lort15]

Mf that's PLUGMAN put some respect on his name

bro watched ben 23

 

[Lort15]

Wildvines were shown to be on Xenon in Secret of the Omnitrix were they not? Aliens can have more than one homeworld

weren't they stated to be invade the planet not the planet being an actual homeworld? i will check real quick

 

[Hellformer]

Okay first off I've literally contributed to revisions threads in the past, why are you accusing me of having a hate boner all of a sudden?

Because of the lack of your knowledge on the verse.

Yes, I've watched the shows and the movies. I can't believe people are genuinely assuming I looked at the cosmology and said "grrrr....games" and decided to target you guys....

Wtf is with the hostility all of a sudden???

Wildvines were shown to be on Xenon in Secret of the Omnitrix were they not? Aliens can have more than one homeworld

Woah, new claim. This never stated in the show. Forget it, can you please prove that such a case even exists in Ben 10?

I'm sorry that me saying this made you feel targeted jfc

Feats/show content over statements, that's all I'm saying

That would've been true if the cards directly contradict mainline canon. The only contradiction here lies is your baseless assumption, thereby posing no problem to the canonicity at all.

Plus, there's been weird statements from stuff like the cards and DVD stuff. Like how that one Ultimate Ben 10K bio said he only had 10K aliens which is a MASSIVE lie

Why?

I can only explain it to you so many times before it gets repetitive man

Then let's wait for opinion of Firestorm and Reiner?

Mf that's PLUGMAN put some respect on his name.

So you conceded that such a case has been displayed in Ben 10, cool.

Okay but seriously, why are you on this "you never watched the show" agenda, please mellow out

Stop making such claims then, otherwise you're suspected of not watching the show.

 

[Lort15]

yeah it is

 

[Hellformer]

yeah it is

Lollllllllllllllllll

 

[Lonkitt]

Because of the lack of your knowledge on the verse.

Just because of some Wildvine discourse?? Idk that's pretty unfair

Woah, new claim. This never stated in the show. Forget it, can you please prove that such a case even exists in Ben 10?

Since they appeared on Xenon, I just kinda assumed that was the case? We see them there in Secrets of the Omnitrix, so my assumption was they were born on two different planets

That would've been true if the cards directly contradict mainline canon. The only contradiction here lies is your baseless assumption, thereby posing no problem to the canonicity at all.

Okay, baseless is a bit far. All I'm saying is the card doesn't really line up wht hem being on Xenon like in the movie. I find it a bit weird

yeah it is

See, if people reminded me of this instead of being jerks and trying to claim I've never watched the show, this wouldn't be so irritating

Even so, Omniverse makes it so Ben visited Galvan Prime and Galvan B, so the statement Ben makes in Vilgax Attacks still doesn't hold up to mainline canon

Why?

He's got way more than those of course

Then let's wait for opinion of Firestorm and Reiner?

Firestorm gave his opinion earlier, though if he has more to add, by all means

Lollllllllllllllllll

Being rude really isn't speeding things along. Like I said, if you guys just pointed out that error to me without going on this rant about "Lonkitt's never watched it", things would be chill rn. But no you jumped straight to making accusations. Pretty unnecessary NGL

So you conceded that such a case has been displayed in Ben 10, cool.

Tf...? No, wtf? I was making a joke about Ben 23, don't twist my words

Stop making such claims then, otherwise you're suspected of not watching the show.

I made one claim about Wildvine man it wasn't that bad