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The key thing is secondary and not the sort of thing we can manage to change right now. At most it'd be a gradual change.
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Categorically Verbose and Obnoxiously and Unbelievably Long Powers & Abilities Lists on VsBattles Characters Profiles and How To Perhaps Make Them a L
- Thread starter Matthew_Schroeder
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This thread's purpose is to put tabbers on overly long powers & abilities lists which are broken into keys, and also to encourage users to put detailed explanations on notable techniques, and try to be more to the point in profiles.
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10 seconds that accumulated over time become minutesMatthew Schroeder said:
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How many profiles do you look at a day? It's not a problem in a long term run.
CinnabarManx421
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It's an annoyance that's very easily fixed with a copy/paste. I'm not saying it has to happen immediately, but it would make profiles a bit easier to read, and every bit goes a long way.
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I've had a problem with being verbose in the past, so I can definitely agree with the intent here.
Profiles like BB and Reinhard Heydrich can get pretty wordy for no good reason.
I think part of the problem is that we decided a while back that every single controversial powerlisting needs to have context given in the Powers and Abilities section so that users won't have to scroll all the way down to get a gist of what the character is capable of. The problem is when these characters have so many hax abilities that these explanations bloat what's supposed to be a terse section.
Profiles like BB and Reinhard Heydrich can get pretty wordy for no good reason.
I think part of the problem is that we decided a while back that every single controversial powerlisting needs to have context given in the Powers and Abilities section so that users won't have to scroll all the way down to get a gist of what the character is capable of. The problem is when these characters have so many hax abilities that these explanations bloat what's supposed to be a terse section.
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@Repp
I personally think that's a terrible solution. I much prefer a larger, longer profile that has its powers well explained in many paragraphs below, then a giant paragraph great wall of china powers list.
I personally think that's a terrible solution. I much prefer a larger, longer profile that has its powers well explained in many paragraphs below, then a giant paragraph great wall of china powers list.
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The issue with only explaining things in the NA/T section is that sometimes, like in Masada or TSSDK, the explanations are basically copied from a game, wiki, etc and make it difficult to determine what does what, rather than just giving the jist of it in the P&A section and the main descrpion in the NA/T swction
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To keep this one short
As someone that likes to write very detailed profiles (read:long) I feel like I should also write something about the issue.
Readability of long profiles is a concern. There are a few things one can do to improve it. Let me first say what I would not do.
-I would not sacrifice any detail for reading convenience. If I read a profile and my knowledge about the character is incomplete in the end, I wasted my time.
-I would not outsource information. I would especially not outsource anything, except respect threads, into a blog. Blogs are not publicly editable, so anything that is about the profiles actual content should not be in them. In general the information in profiles should be complete, so aside from proof of the information everything should be on the profile itself.
So what can we do?
Using "All prior" instead of redundant listings is obviously a good idea I can agree with.
The idea of using tabbers for different keys, if the profile is long, is not bad as well. That way the Notable Attacks/Techniques section could also right away be separated. Not knowing which key which ability belongs to is a problem as well, after all. As an alternative to that, if the powers & abilities section isn't too long, one can also make use of sub-headings in the Notable Attacks/Techniques section, to separate keys.
Something also already mentioned is to move explanations and justifications of abilities from the p&a sections to the Notable A/T / Feats section. For long profiles the p&a section should give a general overview of abilities. The details about the ones one is interested in should be searchable in the other sections then.
In general all justifications, aside from for stats, should go into the feats section. If the justifications for stats also get long, all except the most important ones should be moved to the feats section. Long feats sections should in turn generally be collapsed. (via a toggle button) In that regards we should probably write somewhere how to do that....
To make the Notable A/T section readable it should be grouped and sorted.
Grouping criteria are things like: Magic together with magic, skills together with skills; Magic of the same attribute together and skills with similar effect together.
If this is done I would suggest making use of subheaders for the different groups. That way one can use the Table of Content at the top of the profiles to find the details to the general abilities in the p&a section, without having to read or search a lot.
Sorted should be, within groups, by usefulness/power. Generally powerful abilities at the top, albeit in case of spells of one attribute it often is more pleasing, and still understandable, to sort them by level so that the most powerful ones probably stand last.
I think a profile build in that fashion can retain a good usability even if it is quite long.
As someone that likes to write very detailed profiles (read:long) I feel like I should also write something about the issue.
Readability of long profiles is a concern. There are a few things one can do to improve it. Let me first say what I would not do.
-I would not sacrifice any detail for reading convenience. If I read a profile and my knowledge about the character is incomplete in the end, I wasted my time.
-I would not outsource information. I would especially not outsource anything, except respect threads, into a blog. Blogs are not publicly editable, so anything that is about the profiles actual content should not be in them. In general the information in profiles should be complete, so aside from proof of the information everything should be on the profile itself.
So what can we do?
Using "All prior" instead of redundant listings is obviously a good idea I can agree with.
The idea of using tabbers for different keys, if the profile is long, is not bad as well. That way the Notable Attacks/Techniques section could also right away be separated. Not knowing which key which ability belongs to is a problem as well, after all. As an alternative to that, if the powers & abilities section isn't too long, one can also make use of sub-headings in the Notable Attacks/Techniques section, to separate keys.
Something also already mentioned is to move explanations and justifications of abilities from the p&a sections to the Notable A/T / Feats section. For long profiles the p&a section should give a general overview of abilities. The details about the ones one is interested in should be searchable in the other sections then.
In general all justifications, aside from for stats, should go into the feats section. If the justifications for stats also get long, all except the most important ones should be moved to the feats section. Long feats sections should in turn generally be collapsed. (via a toggle button) In that regards we should probably write somewhere how to do that....
To make the Notable A/T section readable it should be grouped and sorted.
Grouping criteria are things like: Magic together with magic, skills together with skills; Magic of the same attribute together and skills with similar effect together.
If this is done I would suggest making use of subheaders for the different groups. That way one can use the Table of Content at the top of the profiles to find the details to the general abilities in the p&a section, without having to read or search a lot.
Sorted should be, within groups, by usefulness/power. Generally powerful abilities at the top, albeit in case of spells of one attribute it often is more pleasing, and still understandable, to sort them by level so that the most powerful ones probably stand last.
I think a profile build in that fashion can retain a good usability even if it is quite long.
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I agree that this is a problem that annoys me, which is why I usually ask for what can the character do rather than trying to read the cluster of words and barely visible seperation for different keys. I myself have also contributed to a cluster of words because I thought that was how the Wiki was designed to be.
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I agree that the Power And Abilities sections of some characters can be ridiculous and messy.
Having tabbers for every key would definitely make it better, and to have the powers in a bulletpoint list would make it even easier to read it and/or search specific powers. A combo of what Matthew and Skalt suggested.
Sure, functionality over esthetics, but sometimes esthetics can make it more functional. You don't need to exclude one of them, it's not a choice between the two.
And I agree that the keys should be on the top, since my scroller is stupid (and that the keys is one of the more important parts of the profile to understand the differencies the character has depending on forms/progress in the storyline/and the like).
Having tabbers for every key would definitely make it better, and to have the powers in a bulletpoint list would make it even easier to read it and/or search specific powers. A combo of what Matthew and Skalt suggested.
Sure, functionality over esthetics, but sometimes esthetics can make it more functional. You don't need to exclude one of them, it's not a choice between the two.
And I agree that the keys should be on the top, since my scroller is stupid (and that the keys is one of the more important parts of the profile to understand the differencies the character has depending on forms/progress in the storyline/and the like).
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I agree with Kep, for example Madara uchiha's page is long only because of so many explanations for every thing that he has.
I also think this is not that big an issue, putting everything in notable abilities I personally feel would make it worse. Now not only do you not know what they have from the P and A section but you have to go through a huge notable techniques section that also has details of shit like ie. Mangekyo sharingan which has a huge paragraph of explanation.
Like Kep suggested making a blog on the character listing he powers and abilities with the explanation on the blog is a good thing to encourage. It also means that people are held accountable if they add something that a character does not have.
A decent page would be Kindred's which has a blog with their abilities explained. The explanations in the P and A section are not needed.
I also think this is not that big an issue, putting everything in notable abilities I personally feel would make it worse. Now not only do you not know what they have from the P and A section but you have to go through a huge notable techniques section that also has details of shit like ie. Mangekyo sharingan which has a huge paragraph of explanation.
Like Kep suggested making a blog on the character listing he powers and abilities with the explanation on the blog is a good thing to encourage. It also means that people are held accountable if they add something that a character does not have.
A decent page would be Kindred's which has a blog with their abilities explained. The explanations in the P and A section are not needed.
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That's one trouble I had in dealing with characters from very obscure franchises (ex. Trina Riffin from Grojband): there's quite an overt need for justification that blows even my mind.Antvasima said:
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And in addition to what @Flashlight mentioned, there's that one problem which gets even worse than that which is the claim regarding that: "If we offer explanations for the statistics but doesn't or forgets to link them, our visitors will not consider them reliable," which a large number of verses currently has that problem, sadly.Flashlight237 said:
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Other than that, I agree with @Matthew for bringing up the idea of the tabbers for the powers & abilities.
@Kep with his suggestion on his 3 solutions to encourage the users to revise & improve the current structure of the powers & abilities section.
I'm neutral on @Damage's idea as I prefer that method would be better used for referencing where was that superpower the character used shown in (such as what specific episode, chapter, book and etc.) only without the explanation of the ability itself.
I agree with @Cinnabar's idea for the keys since it will help the content revisions for the characters much faster and without needing to scroll through the profiles that might have walls of text in them.
@Kep with his suggestion on his 3 solutions to encourage the users to revise & improve the current structure of the powers & abilities section.
I'm neutral on @Damage's idea as I prefer that method would be better used for referencing where was that superpower the character used shown in (such as what specific episode, chapter, book and etc.) only without the explanation of the ability itself.
I agree with @Cinnabar's idea for the keys since it will help the content revisions for the characters much faster and without needing to scroll through the profiles that might have walls of text in them.
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I agree, but how the heck are we going to solve this in long-term? Some characters have lots of powers for 1 key already.
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That's...a big problem.
And some characters have the same exact powers in their keys without any change. Altaïr Ibn-La'Ahad is a notable example.
And some characters have the same exact powers in their keys without any change. Altaïr Ibn-La'Ahad is a notable example.
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It's almost a necessary evil. Other than what I said about I/O characters, some people just have a metric **** ton of powers that should be listedSpinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
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Simple Solution:
Move ability descriptions to Notable Tecniques/Attacks while keeping the power titles. That's stuff like "Ability (Via Blank. Works by blank. Link for evidence)"
You get the jist on the top and the details on the bottom.
Of course this would only apply to profiles that are nasty long.
For example, here is Galactus' powers list w/out the descriptions.
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Non-Corporeal, Abstract Existence, Immortality (Types 1, 3, 4 and 8), Regenerationn (Low-Godly), Reality Warping, Spatial Manipulation, Time Manipulation, Energy Manipulation, Matter Manipulation, Perception Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Memory Manipulation, Illusion Creation, Absorption, Telepathy, Teleportation, Telekinesis, Shapeshifting, Size Manipulation, Forcefield Creation, Gravity Manipulation, Antimatter Manipulation, Healing, Power Nullification, Paralysis Inducement, Cosmic Awareness, Body Puppetry, Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2), Summoning, Existence Erasure, Resistance to Mind Manipulation, Matter Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2) Soul Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, Possesses all the abilities of the Silver Surfer on a vastly higher scale
That's like 2-3x shorter, by the way.
Also group togehter Subpowers under more broad powers. A character has Fire/Ice/Water/Plant Manip? Just list it as Elemental Manip and specify it on the Notable Attacks.
Move ability descriptions to Notable Tecniques/Attacks while keeping the power titles. That's stuff like "Ability (Via Blank. Works by blank. Link for evidence)"
You get the jist on the top and the details on the bottom.
Of course this would only apply to profiles that are nasty long.
For example, here is Galactus' powers list w/out the descriptions.
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Non-Corporeal, Abstract Existence, Immortality (Types 1, 3, 4 and 8), Regenerationn (Low-Godly), Reality Warping, Spatial Manipulation, Time Manipulation, Energy Manipulation, Matter Manipulation, Perception Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Memory Manipulation, Illusion Creation, Absorption, Telepathy, Teleportation, Telekinesis, Shapeshifting, Size Manipulation, Forcefield Creation, Gravity Manipulation, Antimatter Manipulation, Healing, Power Nullification, Paralysis Inducement, Cosmic Awareness, Body Puppetry, Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2), Summoning, Existence Erasure, Resistance to Mind Manipulation, Matter Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2) Soul Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, Possesses all the abilities of the Silver Surfer on a vastly higher scale
That's like 2-3x shorter, by the way.
Also group togehter Subpowers under more broad powers. A character has Fire/Ice/Water/Plant Manip? Just list it as Elemental Manip and specify it on the Notable Attacks.
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Galactus really isn;t long enough to warrent this kind of treatment though
CinnabarManx421
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It's just an example, more of a proof of concept than anything.
Mr. Bambu
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Probably true, but still. Decent enough example. This means the profiles with lengthy-walls-of-text will in fact be made shorter significantly and still provide reasoning as to their actual mechanics. Decent enough solution to a relatively minor issue.
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i will admit that stuff like Rimuru and Hajime Hinata can have like 80% of the page cut by removing explainations from the power section when they already exist in the NA/T section
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I'd post more examples but that would clog up the thread.
I kid you not, this is the main reason why the lists appear way too long/complicated. You're explaining out the powers where we already have a section for that.
I kid you not, this is the main reason why the lists appear way too long/complicated. You're explaining out the powers where we already have a section for that.
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tbf a lot of powers don't really have explainations like that
like Rimuru for example, who has Low-Godly regen due to something that isn't a technique or really anything other than a feat
like Rimuru for example, who has Low-Godly regen due to something that isn't a technique or really anything other than a feat
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Just one power having let's say, a line of explaination takes up as much space as around five or six powers.
I'll do Rimuru's profile on my sandbox if that's necessary.
I'll do Rimuru's profile on my sandbox if that's necessary.
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I'd appreciate help.
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i meant like explainations that are covered by things in the NA/T section, like Rimuru having his Mid-Godly explained as him having someones Regenerator skill, when that's already listed in his NA/T section. His Low-Godly isn't a technique or anything, and is closer to a copied physiology
i think Rimuru is a good example for how this would work, as he's basically the summation of every problem that was meant to be tackled here
i think Rimuru is a good example for how this would work, as he's basically the summation of every problem that was meant to be tackled here
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Meh for Rimuru i guess i could probably put the explanation of the regen and other stuff for example in the N&A section.
Just put it under something like "Spiritual lifeform" and explain that he has no physical body, and regenerates. Though yea this is just his physiology and not really a technique.
Also his resistances i guess some of it could go under "Ultimate skill user" and explain that having an ultimate skill gives him resistance to virtually everything in tensei that isn't an ultimate skill.
The other resistances are either due to his physiology or a skill like great sage or ciel, but the skill ones can be listed, however putting resistances based on his physiology under N&A seems weird though.
Just put it under something like "Spiritual lifeform" and explain that he has no physical body, and regenerates. Though yea this is just his physiology and not really a technique.
Also his resistances i guess some of it could go under "Ultimate skill user" and explain that having an ultimate skill gives him resistance to virtually everything in tensei that isn't an ultimate skill.
The other resistances are either due to his physiology or a skill like great sage or ciel, but the skill ones can be listed, however putting resistances based on his physiology under N&A seems weird though.
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I'd call it displacing rather than trimming.
I think the purpose of this is to keep the powers abilities like more of an index, where Notable Attacks/Tecniques acts as the encyclopedia.
Take something like a One Peice character for example. They have like a bagillion different tecniques for around one or two powers.
I think the purpose of this is to keep the powers abilities like more of an index, where Notable Attacks/Tecniques acts as the encyclopedia.
Take something like a One Peice character for example. They have like a bagillion different tecniques for around one or two powers.
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While I agree with a purge, I'm against deleting least viewed pages. I know for a fact that Knack is known by very few people on the site and is probably visited once in a blue moon. However, I put in effort into making his profile and as the more or less sole contributor to his page and the verse, I kinda feel it's a little unfair to purge it just because it's not managed by a huge fanbase that constantly updates the page.Matthew Schroeder said:
As for the powers and abilities thing, I think that tabbers don't really solve much. At the end of the day, all pages should be standardised, even in brevity. How do we fix one tab profiles like Kirby? Or at the other end of the spectrum, Dragonoid? A profile with 14 different forms. I'm fine with whatever the outcome of this thread is, but only if it's a one size fits all kind of solution.
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Matt isn't saying "let's delete all the barely-known verses", he's saying to look at pages that aren't reviewed as much and well, review them.
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Exactly.
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also, kinda off-topic but the "long-term" part should be removed
the way it's worded sounds a lot like bait and just to provoke people, along with not really helping in and of itself because that's a thing for CRTs to discuss/fix
the way it's worded sounds a lot like bait and just to provoke people, along with not really helping in and of itself because that's a thing for CRTs to discuss/fix
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How does this work with resistances though?
To use Oryx, the Taken King again (his P&A is huge and I can't really accidentally offend anyone if I use my own file), a ton of the space taken up is explaining why he resists the eight thousand abilities he does. To not he affected by something isn't really something that can be finagled into a P&A, but he's not like Khorne where I can just go "Resistance to every power in the verse" either.
To use Oryx, the Taken King again (his P&A is huge and I can't really accidentally offend anyone if I use my own file), a ton of the space taken up is explaining why he resists the eight thousand abilities he does. To not he affected by something isn't really something that can be finagled into a P&A, but he's not like Khorne where I can just go "Resistance to every power in the verse" either.
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