Excellence616
He/Him- 5,337
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Agreed
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DC Comics - The Legendary DC Heralds Upgrade
- Thread starter Emirp sumitpo
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It'd be "Varies with speed, up to 2-C normally, up to 2-C, possibly 2-A at his peak"
I guess we'll just make one at a time I suppose? Like we cover Superman, then Green Lantern, then the rest.
I think only Supes and the GLs should get their own respective threads since most of the feats come from them.
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Is there any mention to mention with speed i'm sure everyone who reads the profile would know plus I don't think it's necessarily to mention 2-C twice.
"Varies up to 2-C, possibly 2-A at peak"
Is plain and better to me.
Agreed.
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Because the second one is a peak he rarely goes at, and has little scaling other than 2 other characters.
Hellbeast
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I agree though, this is pretty comprehensive and fairly consistent imo. I’d also advocate for the Godkiller scaling outright to 2-C since it’s used by Grail to fight Diana and iirc is associated with another weapon that scales to Diana
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3 universes unfortunately as per what Emirp told me so nah.
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"Varies up to 2-C, 2-C possibly 2-A" then?
Hellbeast
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Let me dream
Stefano4444
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That's quite a lot, i probably need a bit of time to read/see everything.
For now i will go with focus to the Tier 3 feats, i will only mention the feats i found fishy or faulty, everything else i don't mention its because i either agree or i couldn't find anything faulty.
For now i will go with focus to the Tier 3 feats, i will only mention the feats i found fishy or faulty, everything else i don't mention its because i either agree or i couldn't find anything faulty.
- Starbreaker has laid waste to Galactic Clusters (Adam Strange Vol. 2 #7, May 2005)
The statement never specify that he wipe out cluster of galaxies in one attack, or if for waste it means total destruction instead of he just life wipe those areas, i'm not certain if we can use that.
- Supergirl tanks hits from Reactron and easily overpowers him (Supergirl Vol. 5 #25, March 2008) and later tanks a stray blast from his fight with Superman. Reactron is stated to have the power of a thousand galaxies in his hands. (Supergirl Vol. 5 #26, April 2008)
Like XXKINGXX69 say Reactron's statetement has been retcon in a later story.
- Supergirl survived a barrage that could've brought down Galaxies (Supergirl: Woman of Tomorrow Vol. 1 #7, March 2022)
Since at was a barrage of beams and not a single energy wave, i don't think each attacks can be consider capable to wipe out galaxies, or like the example above if for brought down galaxies it trully meant or it was just a metaphor.
- Hourman has Infinite Power (Secret Origins of Super-Villains 80-Page Giant, December 1999)
Claims of having infinite power alone without any scaling, feats or more concrete statements are nothing more than hyperboles.
- Superman and Steel move a tesseract (Superman: The Man of Steel Vol. 1 #100, May 2000)
Like XXKINGXX69 say he was only moving the finite space part, not the infinite dimension within.
- Hal's ring is a conduit to Infinity (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #1, June 1990)
That doesn't sound like he was saying he had infinite power.
- Mogo is also said to have Limitless Power (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #159, April 2003)
Like with Hourman, that is not a valid statement if there isn't anything else.
- Mr Terrific, who was certain Wally had Infinite and Incalculable power, isn't certain he's more powerful than Superman, implying he considers Superman to also have Infinite Power (The Flash (Rebirth) #775, October 2021)
Considering that the Barry and Wally when go all they consistently suprass him and the entire Justice League, i don't think Superman should fully scale to the Flashes at their full power, at best he downscale (maybe to their 2-C, but for sure not to their 2-A).
- Wonder Woman withstands and deflects a fireball with infinite power. (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #21, October 1988)
She deflect it via her Bracelets of Submission, which for what i know they have been consistently able to withstand attacks from characters leagues above WW (like Cap's shield), so at most that feat would scale to just the Bracelets and not WW herself.
- Shazam and Lobo's fight rock the cosmos. (Captain Atom #57, September 1991)
I'm not completely certain if the statement was meant to be taken literally or not, especially if in the story there is no other scans where it is show the universe or any place be affected by the clash.
The statement never specify that he wipe out cluster of galaxies in one attack, or if for waste it means total destruction instead of he just life wipe those areas, i'm not certain if we can use that.
- Supergirl tanks hits from Reactron and easily overpowers him (Supergirl Vol. 5 #25, March 2008) and later tanks a stray blast from his fight with Superman. Reactron is stated to have the power of a thousand galaxies in his hands. (Supergirl Vol. 5 #26, April 2008)
Like XXKINGXX69 say Reactron's statetement has been retcon in a later story.
- Supergirl survived a barrage that could've brought down Galaxies (Supergirl: Woman of Tomorrow Vol. 1 #7, March 2022)
Since at was a barrage of beams and not a single energy wave, i don't think each attacks can be consider capable to wipe out galaxies, or like the example above if for brought down galaxies it trully meant or it was just a metaphor.
- Hourman has Infinite Power (Secret Origins of Super-Villains 80-Page Giant, December 1999)
Claims of having infinite power alone without any scaling, feats or more concrete statements are nothing more than hyperboles.
- Superman and Steel move a tesseract (Superman: The Man of Steel Vol. 1 #100, May 2000)
Like XXKINGXX69 say he was only moving the finite space part, not the infinite dimension within.
- Hal's ring is a conduit to Infinity (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #1, June 1990)
That doesn't sound like he was saying he had infinite power.
- Mogo is also said to have Limitless Power (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #159, April 2003)
Like with Hourman, that is not a valid statement if there isn't anything else.
- Mr Terrific, who was certain Wally had Infinite and Incalculable power, isn't certain he's more powerful than Superman, implying he considers Superman to also have Infinite Power (The Flash (Rebirth) #775, October 2021)
Considering that the Barry and Wally when go all they consistently suprass him and the entire Justice League, i don't think Superman should fully scale to the Flashes at their full power, at best he downscale (maybe to their 2-C, but for sure not to their 2-A).
- Wonder Woman withstands and deflects a fireball with infinite power. (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #21, October 1988)
She deflect it via her Bracelets of Submission, which for what i know they have been consistently able to withstand attacks from characters leagues above WW (like Cap's shield), so at most that feat would scale to just the Bracelets and not WW herself.
- Shazam and Lobo's fight rock the cosmos. (Captain Atom #57, September 1991)
I'm not completely certain if the statement was meant to be taken literally or not, especially if in the story there is no other scans where it is show the universe or any place be affected by the clash.
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Impressively comprehensive and well researched, kudos. Feats are largely solid so I agree with the premise.
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This thread sure moved on a bit since I went to sleep. I'll respond to a few key points above since I have a few things to do.
As explained before, Universe stuff is H3A due to the high amounts of Infinite Universe statements. The Big Bang stuff is put in L2C because it created space and time (Zero Hour #0), and in ZH, it recreated the entire timeline. For Supes and Steel to move the finite space, they'd also have to be moving the infinite space within, it's literally compressed in it. The infinite power fireball is literally stated to have touched Diana's skin, and in Rebirth her bracelets were destroyed by Cheetah with the Godkiller sword, which Diana could endure attacks from, so I'm not sure where that comes from. Kyle being blasted by the Big Bang isn't shown on panel, but it's literally stated they were blown too far away by it, and next time we see Kyle, he's mostly undamaged fighting Parallax. Not sure what the problem is with Infinite Power stuff, especially when there's more than just statements. Most of the stuff under H3A I'll look into later, but it's not entirely relevant.
Anything scaling related I'd rather save until after feat discussion. I have some problems with Post Crisis WW scaling to certain people, and Kingdome Come Clark is generally overrated, but I think it'd be better if talk about all that later.
As explained before, Universe stuff is H3A due to the high amounts of Infinite Universe statements. The Big Bang stuff is put in L2C because it created space and time (Zero Hour #0), and in ZH, it recreated the entire timeline. For Supes and Steel to move the finite space, they'd also have to be moving the infinite space within, it's literally compressed in it. The infinite power fireball is literally stated to have touched Diana's skin, and in Rebirth her bracelets were destroyed by Cheetah with the Godkiller sword, which Diana could endure attacks from, so I'm not sure where that comes from. Kyle being blasted by the Big Bang isn't shown on panel, but it's literally stated they were blown too far away by it, and next time we see Kyle, he's mostly undamaged fighting Parallax. Not sure what the problem is with Infinite Power stuff, especially when there's more than just statements. Most of the stuff under H3A I'll look into later, but it's not entirely relevant.
Anything scaling related I'd rather save until after feat discussion. I have some problems with Post Crisis WW scaling to certain people, and Kingdome Come Clark is generally overrated, but I think it'd be better if talk about all that later.
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The second scan says that the bracelets are buttressed (meaning reinforced) by her “Amazon muscle”, so it’s not just the Bracelets of Submission doing the work.
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I really don’t see how that‘s a good idea. The premise of the thread covers the majority of DC characters, splitting it into multiple tiny threads with smaller groups of characters would just extend this unnecessarily.
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Well, all the 2-C and higher lads have Varies ratings, Low 2-C seems to have the more consistent characters
Stefano4444
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Perhaps to a degree WW's strength also contribute to the feat, but i still think that Bracelets did most of the job.
WW's Bracelets in the Post Crisis were crafted by Hephaestus from the remains of Zeus's Aegis, so it make sense for them to be able to tank attacks that are on the level of the Olympians.
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You might think that, but that’s not what the text actually says. It says her muscle reinforced the bracelets, so her durability should scale.
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What he said he lied about dosen't seem to be the statement about having power of a thousand galaxies but something else based on the scan XXKINGXX69 brought.
Stefano4444
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Both statement occur in the same storyline, the recton was meant to be apply to him having the consciousness in the opposite side of the universe, which also include him having the power of thousands of galaxy because of his condition, which was reveal to be a lie.
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Yeah I know, why would his lie include the a thousand galaxy statement when he said he lied about his consciousness in the opposite side of the galaxy?
Stefano4444
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Are not the statements correlated? His physical condition its also what give him the power of a thousand of galaxies?
If we go on a technicality the "It didn't project my consciousness into another part of the galaxy or any of that bull." could also refer to his other quotes like the thousand galaxy.
But i can concede that perhaps the retcon was only meant to the consciousness, although personally i doubt.
Stefano4444
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I don't think her using her superhuman strength it what made those bracelets able to withstand that attack.
That like saying Captain America's shield can tank herald level attacks thanks of Steve's reinforced it with his physical strength, that doesn't make much sense to me.
Looks if i must be generous, i can see her downscale to that attack since she did physical reflect it, but i'm still on the opinion that most of the feat can be attribute to her magical bracelets.
Especially since that its the same attack that supposidely destroyed Olympus along with all its gods (including Zeus who its vastly stronger than WW) and she was badly stunned by it.
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That's never stated anywhere for Cap though. Unless you can provide examples.
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Alright
The feat is useable I guess
Over an unknown period of time. This is just 4-C without a timeframe since he's immortal and MFTL+.
This entire issue is known for its hyper-flowery language with stuff. The attack that could have brought down galaxies? It was a bunch of swords and energy fire that didn't even make explosions larger than Supergirl.
This isn't usable for a rating.
As already mentioned the statement was retconed
His line is this
Which he then said later
Everything in his original line cannot be taken as factual. He admitted he was outright lying to her the entire time.
Useable I guess
Hourman's power comes from a Chrono-Staff more so than him. It's why he was nerfed to a power hour later on because he wouldn't use the staff's power.
The scaling chain also doesn't work because Extant was using Mobius' chair to counteract Hourman.
While true, remember that the Tesseract was able to just be on Earth/ground without ever damaging it. The fact that a finite space object can hold an infinite space should also be taken into account because that doesn't make logical sense. I don't think its useable as a justification
Both of these can be used I guess
These look fine but I'm not the biggest GL person
This was her bracers withstanding the energy, not here.
This is fine if High 3-A lightspeed punches are accepted
The ratings are fine, but remember that they're in the 4th world in their true form. Such a scale is meaningless for cross-scaling.
It's not just them fighting. Right before it features various Gods fighting and right after it features more heroes fighting.
The did nothing. Why? Because its directly shown they weren't enough and Spectre had to do all the work.
This works I guess
While true, remember that Aztek is, as you yourself mentioned related to the God of light and his power comes from light. Even if the feat is Low 2-C, its from a source that just amps Superman (which as a note, is what he was trying to do so Superman could destroy the fight space Octopus).
This feat is High 3-A afaik, since as shown by Flash's race with Death and Superman's final encounter with B13, time continues to exist before and after the Big Bang.
The Ageis channels cosmic energy which can be used for other stuff. It's how they moved Imperiex from the current year back to the Big Bang.
While the Ageis is Low 2-C, it's like how Imperiex is Low 2-C. Not really in a way that scales to anyone.
Nebula Man is confirmed to be an infant universe. One that exists in real space and can by visited by just shrinking down. This wouldn't be a Low 2-C feat, it's far to small and exists within the same timeline as the larger main-universe.
While true, I should also mention they were fighting on a planet and said planet wasn't destroyed from this clash. While it might be Tier 2 I think its a pretty bad Tier 2 feat.
Fine. Though anything Big Bang related is High 3-A rather than Tier 2 because time existed before the Big Bang.
Fine I guess. We already accept Flash at maxing out on this level
Circe is weird but they've fought enough that I generally get the scaling
This is fine, but still in their higher dimensional bodies that no one would scale to.
The Red King stuff still isn't useful in my view, but the Auteur.io looks alright, albeit a bit weird.
Starbreaker needed to feed during this arc, so he wasn't at max. The second scan also isn't true, they were fighting a hologram at the time as the page right after that one says. When they fought the real Starbreaker they couldn't damage him without either Zatanna or by causing him to eat his own energies
I'm not sure he harmed Mordru, but he didn't die from an attack. But Mordru also didn't look like he was trying to kill Superman either
This is fine I guess
While both are fine, Captain Atom is pretty unreliable strength wise and various a lot.
He contributed nothing. Spectre is the one that ttriggersthe event. Later comics getting stuff wrong about the original like with Ms Marvel destroying a planet isn't anything new.
Scaling Superman above Kyle is fine, but this still wouldn't be Low 2-C afaik
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Big Bangs are Tier 3 if time existed independently from the Big Bang and Tier 2 if time is dependent on the Big Bang. A Big Bang that creates a timeline will be Low 2-C, one that creates matter will be 3-A to High 3-A if the universe it made is comparable to the IRL one.
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Except, again, that’s not what the text actually says. The text says that the bracelets were reinforced by her muscle, period.
Also, even if we accepted that the bracelets did most of the work… it’s a High 3-A feat. It’s infinity. Even if her arms only did a small portion of the work like you claim, that’d still be infinity and still High 3-A.
Not to mention that Diana scales higher than this regardless.
No, it literally didn’t lmao. It destroyed MOUNT Olympus, as in the mountain, not the realm of Olympus itself. And it didn’t destroy the gods, I have no earthly idea where you got that from. And Diana wasn’t “badly stunned”, she got up literally three panels later.
You might want to re-read the comic, because nothing you just said actually happened.
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Agree.
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Generally speaking, I guess if we're doing high ends of characters and we've relaxed scaling like in Marvel, I don't see why a "Low 2-C/2-C, possibly 2-A" rating wouldn't work for some people.
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Did you read the OP’s notes about these feats? Because it has detailed reasons why they should be valid.
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I detailed why they're still not valid. Them not being valid does not mean other Tier 3 or 2 are invalid though.
Stefano4444
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Yes my bad, i thought the gods also died by the explosion.
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Your reasoning is exactly what the points in the OP are debunking though-
Scottycj256
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Holy shit the madman actually did it
Massively agree with everything
Massively agree with everything
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Are you suggesting we do a At peak thing?
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To explain further then, the tell Damage that they need a blast but need it controlled. So when he reaches the correct level of energy he has to focus it correctly. The only time when he gains enough energy to do this is after Spectre pumps power into him and he explicitly notes its a big burst and only after Spectre does he actually get enough energy to explode.
Nebula Man I don't even know why I need to explain it. The OP gave a scan where he said "I could have replaced this universe if it wasn't for a flaw that kept me small".
These two feats just shouldn't be used for a justification. There are other clearer examples that don't have these hangups to them, which should be used instead.
Yeah. Characters like Superman have such extreme mental limitations on violence that I don't think you can argue that he's consistently throwing Tier 2 punches on most of his enemies.
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I mean we already do that on his profile.
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Yeah, what I'm saying is that we don't remove those ratings. They need to be kept.
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We're not removing them, just replacing the 4-B with 2-C.
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Lets not go to far there. Over something like 12,000 comics these under 20 or 30 of these? I guess its more consistent that the 4-B stuff but they also weren't consistent either
Just use JLA/Avengers as properly scaling.
Ezpz
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I think some of them deserve to be upgraded, but not everyone.
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