DC "Created First Being" Problem

[Ralp0054]

In the Vertigo universe (The Sandman #4–28, Lucifer Vol. 1–75), Lucifer Morningstar was the first angel God ever created — the brightest one, the Lightbringer. He rebelled against God not because he was purely evil, but because he refused to be controlled. He wanted freedom and the right to think for himself. That’s why Lucifer stands for ideas like free will, knowledge, and rebellion against authority. On the other hand, First of the Fallen, from Hellblazer, is a completely different being.The phrase “I was the first. Mine was the first fall.” is also maybe evidence that he was the first to fall before Lucifer, but the claims that he was the first created are unfounded. Later stories make it clear that Lucifer was truly the first creation, and that the First only came after, as a spirit of darkness and hatred. They have told us this many times in Sandman, in the Lucifer series and in the Books of Magic. Lucifer and the First of the Fallen show two very different sides of rebellion. Lucifer represents freedom, curiosity, and the courage to question the rules of creation. He chooses to stand alone because he values truth and independence. The First of the Fallen represents bitterness and denial — a being who hates creation so much that he pretends he was before it. Lucifer’s rebellion creates meaning by showing that choice matters. The First’s rebellion destroys meaning by saying nothing ever mattered. So Lucifer is the rebel who thinks, while the First is the rebel who hates.

It would be absurd and unfair to accept that The First Of Fallen was the first created with a single monologue while the truth is told to us repeatedly on the sidelines. On the one hand, there is information that has been told in more than one series, and on the other, it is just a claim and a monologue.

so I argue that the phrase "Inapplicable. Was the first being to be created, even before Heaven or the angels that inhabited it." in the profile should be changed.

First of the Fallen (Vertigo)

One of the very first beings to come into creation, before Earth, or Heaven, the First of the Fallen was the advisor of God Himself. However, one day he disagreed with the will of his master, who cast him down from Heaven down to the shapeless void that would become Hell, which he wandered alone...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Xearesay]

Agreed, being the first to fall in hell doesn’t mean he was the one of first created beings by the Presence. This should be a pretty simple change.

Edit: On second thought, there actually is evidence for it. The statement they’re referencing speculates him as the first to be and one who has been there since creation began. So it’s possible that the description holds, unless it’s proven to be wrong. The comic is hellblazer 59 in case you want to see for yourself.

 

[Ralp0054]

Agreed, being the first to fall in hell doesn’t mean he was the one of first created beings by the Presence. This should be a pretty simple change.

Edit: On second thought, there actually is evidence for it. The statement they’re referencing speculates him as the first to be and one who has been there since creation began. So it’s possible that the description holds, unless it’s proven to be wrong. The comic is hellblazer 59 in case you want to see for yourself.

thank you for this
in summary

"...Someone else was already there."--- the first person to fall into hell

"They say that he’d been there since Creation began — that he was first to fall, and the Redeemer threw him out of Heaven for daring to think for himself..."----------has been in hell since the beginning of creation
"Lucifer had been greatest of the archangels, and he could never match such power... but the Morningstar is gone..."---------It is emphasized that he cannot compete with Lucifer, and we know this from the differences in Tiers and Feats in their profiles.

 

[Xearesay]

thank you for this
in summary

"...Someone else was already there."--- the first person to fall into hell

"They say that he’d been there since Creation began — that he was first to fall, and the Redeemer threw him out of Heaven for daring to think for himself..."----------has been in hell since the beginning of creation
"Lucifer had been greatest of the archangels, and he could never match such power... but the Morningstar is gone..."---------It is emphasized that he cannot compete with Lucifer, and we know this from the differences in Tiers and Feats in their profiles.

Well the difference in tiers exist largely because of the profiles being outdated and because of “cosmology splits” that have been recently undone. Lucifer is more powerful than TFOTF, but he’s not on a higher level existence than him. He’s really just stronger being on the same level of existence. The profiles right now just really don’t accurately reflect that.

However, I think the part of the scan that’s being used and you didn’t quote was this.

“That he was the first to be.” This implies that he existed at least before Lucifer existed. So if the objective is to change this statement on his profile, we’d need some counter evidence.

 

[Ralp0054]

Well the difference in tiers exist largely because of the profiles being outdated and because of “cosmology splits” that have been recently undone. Lucifer is more powerful than TFOTF, but he’s not on a higher level existence than him. He’s really just stronger being on the same level of existence. The profiles right now just really don’t accurately reflect that.

However, I think the part of the scan that’s being used and you didn’t quote was this.

“That he was the first to be.” This implies that he existed at least before Lucifer existed. So if the objective is to change this statement on his profile, we’d need some counter evidence.

i think "That he was the first to be." means It means the first to fall into hell, But even if you claim that it means the first created, neither you nor I can prove it. This sentence can mean many things, we can't rely on it, and you say we need more counter-evidence, but the evidence we have already outweighs TFOTF.

 

[Ralp0054]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeThree @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @Catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @Excellence616 @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @Maverick_Zero_X @Robo432343 @LordTracer @Alonik @ProfectusInfinity @PrinceStories @Asterotheology @Zensum @KingEzran @Dark-Carioca @AerrowStorm1 @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @Armorchompy @Osemere @Eficiente @Adr10K @Rex_Eckles @The_Impress @Rosa

What do you think about this?

 

[Ralp0054]

@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeThree @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @Catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @Excellence616 @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @Maverick_Zero_X @Robo432343 @LordTracer @Alonik @ProfectusInfinity @PrinceStories @Asterotheology @Zensum @KingEzran @Dark-Carioca @AerrowStorm1 @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @Armorchompy @Osemere @Eficiente @Adr10K @Rex_Eckles @The_Impress @Rosa

What do you think about this?

Thank you very much for your interest

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[Ralp0054]

bump

 

[Dark-Carioca]

Oh wow, no one's commented here yet?

It doesn't seem like a huge addition and if there's evidence to support it, I see no issue with it (add me to the 'agree' bunch then )

 

[Weaver261]

If I wasn't mistaken, didn't lucifer himself stated that he is first of the fallen in vol 3? Or is it different canon?
Scan

 

[Ralp0054]

If I wasn't mistaken, didn't lucifer himself stated that he is first of the fallen in vol 3? Or is it different canon?
Scan

I can't access the scan link. If you can fix it, we can be sure about this issue.

 

[Ralp0054]

Oh wow, no one's commented here yet?

It doesn't seem like a huge addition and if there's evidence to support it, I see no issue with it (add me to the 'agree' bunch then )

I tried to present all possible arguments, I only need people, and I also thank you for your contribution.

 

[Weaver261]

I can't access the scan link. If you can fix it, we can be sure about this issue.

 

[Ralp0054]

This could be a great piece of evidence, but I'm not very familiar with anything other than Mike Carey, and this panel looks like a Dan Watters run, Thank you for adding