Weird Cosmology of DC Fix

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Hi, Goofy, here. I was recommended this idea by @The_Impress and given that a certain mod upvoted his comment seems to indicate I have the green light to do so. L-M-A-O.

Anyway, the sandbox is here, I don't know why someone else is doing it since I have a lot more information to add, but, unsurprisingly it looks so generic:

Unified DC Cosmology

vsbattles.fandom.com

And also, this:

The New Unified Cosmology of DC Comics: Rating, Scaling, Change

This thread is a continuation of the previous discussion regarding the tiering of DC's cosmology, following the recent confirmation that Vertigo has been fully integrated into the modern-era framework (The New History of the DC Universe)...

vsbattles.com

This isn't a rating proposal, this is fixing up some misconception.

The Mansions of Silence:​

The Mansions of Silence apeeared during Lucifer story arc called “The Mansions of the Silence.” To put it simply, it’s an alternate afterlife in which souls have no harbor for Heaven and Hell.

As Bergelmir mentions it is at the edge of the coin, in which they sail, with each side of the coin representing Heaven and Hell, respectively. (Lucifer Vol.1 #38)

If it wasn’t made clear about the above statement, it is “outside” the coin, it is at the edge which is more like a Limbo of the two as oppose to a literal realm outside Creation. There's a profile for The Mansions (Made by me and in the note section, it said that The Mansions is not outside Creation)

The Mansions of Silence (DC/Vertigo)

The Mansions of Silence is an afterlife that’s not the conventional one when either realm does not harbor certain souls or things. It’s noted as the edge of the coin, if Heaven and Hell were two sides of the same coin. A place of illusions and lies that holds countless untold souls and forgotten...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Why isn't outside Creation and in The Greater Omniverse?

The first clue is literally already said by Bergelmir. So where is it? It’s actually part of Heaven, more specifically, its eastern aspect. (Lucifer Vol.1 #36)

So, as stated in the story, when Lilim built the Silver City, they also had a connection to it at the plain in which the fallen from the war die as shown above. The eastern aspect is the Armageddon Plain which is where Silver City meets the Universe. (Lucifer Vol.1 #61)

Why is this relevant?

As shown the way to get to the Mansions is past the Silver City, (Lucifer Vol.1 #36) but the plain in which they meet is where The Mansions are located. As shown above, as such Lilith can drag Heaven down to that Plain. (Lucifer Vol.1 #63)

Which Ultima highlights the difference between the “metaphysical Heaven” and the physical structure “The Silver City” as such Ibriel and Lucifer were of “Heaven” before the Silver City was constructed. (Lucifer Vol.1 #50)

As such The Silver City and Mansions of Silence are in “Heaven,” the metaphysical one that isn't in order of created things ie outside Creation and before Time’s dawn. (The Sandman Vol.2 #24)

So Gaiman’s “Silver City” is the metaphysical “Heaven” of Carey. Very important to distinguish the physical shape in Creation and the one outside that oversees that physical structure which includes the Mansions.

The Mansions contain Creations, though.

Said Creation are already passed on and lives in a realm filled with illusions. (Lucifer Vol.1 #38) After all, a Creation isn't “mountain-sized” nor could Cal physically fit through the shattered mirrors, if it were scaled to size. (Lucifer Vol.1 #37)

Like the “soft places” Lilith ventures through, the mirrors are more so “doorways” as opposed to the Creations themselves. (Lucifer Vol.1 #56)

Conclusion:​

Mansions are not outside Creation ie not in the Greater Omniverse. The only two structures outside Creation is Yggdrasil and Eden Garden.

The Endless Disrespect:​

Apparently, only @Ultima_Reality, @Sandman31, and I know about the “true extent” of The Endless.

The scan in the New History of the DC Universe is not even the true extent of The Endless. It does reference Sandman #21, which literally states “Morpheus” is a mere aspect of the true abstract Dream outside Creation, so again ignoring valuable context.

Their actual origin as just “pure context” comes from Time, the relentless beat in which all things exist, can exist, and will exist in their time of existence and non-existence as he gave The Endless their entire existence prior to all Creations. (The Sandman: Overture Vol.1 #4) This is made clear when The Endless were present in the Void before all things and obviously, Morpheus is not the first incarnation of Dream projected by their abstract self in Creation. (The Sandman Vol.1 #2)

Conclusion:​

Time essence is what gave rise to The Endless as he literally states so because he embodies all of existence as a whole in time in which they do and don't exist, transcending the Book of Destiny, and all things exist due to him “existing.”

• Time is the embodiment of everything, as stated by Morpheus “all things are yours and will be his, in him.”
• Time predates Creation and light as The Endless true abstract self predates light because they're actualized from Time essence in what would define reality. The potential of everything has a Destiny before they were traced to exists, All things had the potential to live and die as that would be Death, etc…..Father Time more like Father Possiblity/Potiental.
• Time eventually came with Night, and that became the existence of everything, in which their “aspect” regards them as their parents because the abstract self aren't no “conscious living things,” they're pure concepts.

God (Yahweh’s true form) > The Great Darkness > ~ Night > Time > Yahweh (The aspect of God) , The Source/Light/Overvoid > ~ True Extent of The Endless > Lucifer and Michael > The First Circle > Aspect of The True Endless ~ Hands > Perpetua > all else.

The Source is different from The Overvoid:​

We've all seen the interview, but they're the same in “Morrison” eyes as he literally said so:

Morrison: Yeah. Again, on the very edge of the art and the edge of the mind of God there are these two big concepts fighting – Superman and Mandrakk, Predation and Protection, Greed and Preservation, Ugly and Beautiful, Youth and Age, Good and Evil, Black and White, Is and Isn't and all the others. Beyond that crumbling ledge in Monitor-World, those concepts don't exist and it's all non-dual Monitor mind, or God, or Kirby's Source, in which all contradictions are resolved into unity. It's funny, the more I talk about it, the more I'm getting into it!

The Source = The Overvoid

The Overvoid = Light

Light = Source

The Great Darkness, an eternal canvas of nothingness, predates Light (Light of Creation), precedes the Source (The Source), precedes Immculate Perfection of Light (Overvoid).

No difference between them in the current canon and The Darkness exists outside Source/Light/Overvoid bounding it on all sides. (The New Gods Vol.1 #6)

The Darkness is the self-referential Void because the total darkness is far older than The Source when all was just “Void” ie only Darkness. (The New Gods Vol.1 #5)

God spoke eventually, and the Darkness was no longer just darkness. So The Darkness is infinitely larger than The Light (The Source and The Overvoid), so despite being opposites that never means equal.

The Presence is just The Divine Presence:​

I’ll keep this short. The Presence isn't an “entity” per se, just a title for God, in respect to both aspect and whole. There's no difference that the “divine” adds, God is God.

 

[Re5yh]

By looking at the Source=Overvoid=Light, I honestly agree with this cause the Source is said to be a white paper/void where it is at the same white spot of where the Overvoid would be.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

By looking at the Source=Overvoid=Light, I honestly agree with this cause the Source is said to be a white paper/void where it is at the same white spot of where the Overvoid would be.

It’s almost like a multiple author view it that way and put it out, but for some reason, we take a weird approach to things without the involvement of direct “terminology.”

 

[Weaver261]

od (Yahweh’s true form) > The Great Darkness > ~ Night > Time > Yahweh (The aspect of God) , The Source/Light/Overvoid > ~ True Extent of The Endless > Lucifer and Michael > The First Circle > Aspect of The True Endless ~ Hands > Perpetua > all else

I have a problem with this. How Night and Time are above of The Source/Light/Overvoid? And how "True Extent of Endless" are above Lucifer and Michael?
First of all, I understand when you said "Time", you are referring to "Father Time". But since this isn't Vertigo seperate cosmology anymore, the usage of "time" becomes a bit messy. We have Deep Change who is interchangable with the Light/ the Source. Deep change is also the source of Time. So my question is.....if Light/Source = Deep Change, how Time (emanation of Deep Change) > Source? It doesn't make sense to me. Or are there two times? "Father Time" and "Time dreamt by Deep Change"? What is the difference?
Second, the scans for explaining true extent of endless being beyond creation is a little silly. The description about Dream the endless and how his current form is just a facet from the whole thing. But from whose perspective on what kind of level of existence? Cause we know that Dream's appearence changes based on the person who is perceiving him. Also there's no indication of their true form being beyond Creation.

The Endless were present in the Void before all things

This is also a bit iffy to me since it doesn't say "void before all things" but rather "when all of this was void before". The word "All of this" in the scan is referring to waking world and dreaming. Not to even mention, Big Bang is referred as "Dawn of Time" which is made by The Source. And only after that, Time and Endless came into existence.
So, it's not possible for Night and Time to scale above Source/Light/Overvoid or Yahweh. And True Extent of Endless is also placed above Lucifer and Michael from some reason which I find quite hard to agree with.

 

[Hecky2222]

I mean I disagree with "True Extend of Endless" are above from Lucifer and Michael. It is obvious from Sandman and Lucifer comics Lucifer is above Death of the Endless and Dream of the Endless

 

[KLOL506]

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Planck69 @Elizhaa @LephyrTheRevanchist @DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @Dereck03 @Maverick_Zero_X @Just_a_Random_Butler @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @Celestial_Pegasus

@Theglassman12 @Reiner04 @ActuallySpaceMan42 @KingTempest @Catzlaflame @UchihaSlayer96 @Emirp sumitpo @Nierre @Dalesean027 @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Vietthai96 @Imaginym @Godernet @Elizio33

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I have a problem with this. How Night and Time are above of The Source/Light/Overvoid? And how "True Extent of Endless" are above Lucifer and Michael?

True Extent of the Endless encompasses all Creation because they're scaled off of every one of their viewpoint. Michael and Lucifer are already encompassed by all The Endless.

Like I mentioned Ultima literally said it best here. Lucifer and Michael were always above their aspect, never their whole or even their border context of power in which they represent.

The Endless in their abstract self are far beyond their aspect and The Archangels. The Presence is the only exception and even then he's susceptible to Dream.

First of all, I understand when you said "Time", you are referring to "Father Time". But since this isn't Vertigo seperate cosmology anymore, the usage of "time" becomes a bit messy. We have Deep Change who is interchangable with the Light/ the Source. Deep change is also the source of Time.

This isn't “Vertigo” anymore is literally the point. If they're merge, but the information isn't contradictory then why would we precedent information that hadn't change their position or history?

Father Time “isn't Time,” Gaiman used the name because that's the most common way to know of him. Time is existence personified in which it can exist and will exist, he's closer to “Father Possibility” than actual being interconnected to the concept of time. Hell, even Ultima says Time transcends Yahweh.

So my question is.....if Light/Source = Deep Change, how Time (emanation of Deep Change) > Source? It doesn't make sense to me. Or are there two times? "Father Time" and "Time dreamt by Deep Change"? What is the difference?
Second, the scans for explaining true extent of endless being beyond creation is a little silly. The description about Dream the endless and how his current form is just a facet from the whole thing. But from whose perspective on what kind of level of existence? Cause we know that Dream's appearence changes based on the person who is perceiving him. Also there's no indication of their true form being beyond Creation.

Deep Change “Time” applies to things in Creation, it isn't even referring to Gaiman’s character.

Father Time as I expresses in the potential in which all things exist and can. As Dream literally states “all things are yours and/or will be in time, in you.” He already predated every Creation, is the reason for every Creation, and actualizes all the true abstract version of The Endless who are far above Lucifer and Michael.

Their true form is very much beyond Creation, the power of dreams is explained by Ultima easily supersedes the entire structure of Creation, and that applies to aspect and not the whole, which would boost that scaling.

This is also a bit iffy to me since it doesn't say "void before all things" but rather "when all of this was void before". The word "All of this" in the scan is referring to waking world and dreaming.

No, the scan mentions about the rules that applies to all things, which was put when all was Void. This was made obvious when even the oldest aspect of Dream is also bound to those rules.

Not to even mention, Big Bang is referred as "Dawn of Time" which is made by The Source. And only after that, Time and Endless came into existence.
So, it's not possible for Night and Time to scale above Source/Light/Overvoid or Yahweh. And True Extent of Endless is also placed above Lucifer and Michael from some reason which I find quite hard to agree with.

Time is already and explicitly predates Creation which is literally mentioned.

There are many instances of The Endless (older incarnation than Morpheus predating) Creation.

Here.
Here.
Here.
Here.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I mean I disagree with "True Extend of Endless" are above from Lucifer and Michael. It is obvious from Sandman and Lucifer comics Lucifer is above Death of the Endless and Dream of the Endless

The same issue in Lucifer states “Lucifer can die” by Death, herself and it was said several times by Noema of The Basanos and Morningstar, himself.

Here.
Here.
Here.
Here.

The Endless encompasses all beings in Creation, Michael and Lucifer, included. The only being saved from that is Yahweh, and still “dreams” affect him.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Planck69 @Elizhaa @LephyrTheRevanchist @DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @Dereck03 @Maverick_Zero_X @Just_a_Random_Butler @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @Celestial_Pegasus

@Theglassman12 @Reiner04 @ActuallySpaceMan42 @KingTempest @Catzlaflame @UchihaSlayer96 @Emirp sumitpo @Nierre @Dalesean027 @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Vietthai96 @Imaginym @Godernet @Elizio33

Unfortunately, Ultima is on a leave of absence. We talked for like hours on the end, he was very instant on The Endless > Archangels and Time/Night > Yahweh. Yet, seeing these arguments, I don't think they've read Lucifer and/or Sandman properly. Ultima and I detailed every instance of power in which/why The Endless are above Creation (in their pure form) and far above The Archangels.

Too bad they rely on space-out instances of Lucifer belittling their aspect when the catalyst (Destiny) was the entire issue he faced throughout his entire run. He also mentioned several times how he, rather, live than die (Death) at the hands of random destruction other than his Yahweh, which he does admit, he’ll die fighting for his freedom after he wages war on Yahweh when he asked him to close his gates. Dreams are what fuels Lucifer’s ambition for freedom, or at least the outcome, the ambition, and all he knows to want is pure “desire,” a term he literally coined in #75. The list goes on, people don't pay attention to those details. Cherry on top when I saw an argument about “defining Darkness” as to the reason why “self-referential Void” can't refer to The Darkness.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I think it’s quite evident that Lucifer isn’t superior to the 'true' Endless / the concepts they fully embody.

Let’s remember that even the Presence is a being shaped from the Dream; that Lucifer was never able to slip free of the Presence’s determinism (Destiny); and that it’s made clear multiple times that Lucifer CAN die, no matter how much the aspect of Death claims she 'can’t claim his soul.'

As I see it, the fundamental truths the Endless represent stand above the archangels.

 

[Re5yh]

I think it’s quite evident that Lucifer isn’t superior to the 'true' Endless / the concepts they fully embody.

Let’s remember that even the Presence is a being shaped from the Dream; that Lucifer was never able to slip free of the Presence’s determinism (Destiny); and that it’s made clear multiple times that Lucifer CAN die, no matter how much the aspect of Death claims she 'can’t claim his soul.'

As I see it, the fundamental truths the Endless represent stand above the archangels.

I also remember that the Presence was shaped by the Void itself (Not the endless. I think Dream actually referred to lower deities) since he is an aspect of it.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I think it’s quite evident that Lucifer isn’t superior to the 'true' Endless / the concepts they fully embody.

Let’s remember that even the Presence is a being shaped from the Dream; that Lucifer was never able to slip free of the Presence’s determinism (Destiny); and that it’s made clear multiple times that Lucifer CAN die, no matter how much the aspect of Death claims she 'can’t claim his soul.'

As I see it, the fundamental truths the Endless represent stand above the archangels.

A person with brains, I see. I salute thee.

I made a thread that upgraded Vertigo not too long ago about how broken Dreams reach is. A few thousand dreams retroactively change all of Creation from its inception to the point, that the change is “absolute.”

We see time and time again, they don't abuse their power or else, they could literally toy with everyone.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I also remember that the Presence was shaped by the Void itself since he is an aspect of it.

The scan doesn't work. What do you mean by this?

 

[Re5yh]

The scan doesn't work. What do you mean by this?

Got this from the Void page you made back then

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Got this from the Void page you made back then

Oh yeah.

The difference I made with the “Void,” “Yahweh,” and “God” is that Yahweh is manifested consciously from the Void, the Void is just a still state in which all things happen and come. “God” is where the entire Universe is a “thought” in his mind (The Void) kinda like the Neo-Vedantic Imperson Monad from DeMatteis’ stories, that God is both Void and beyond Void.

Yahweh is just the name for God in a specific belief system. According to Mazikeen, he has at least 5,000 names, The Void isn't really conscious, so when I mean avatar projected, that's more like “God” doing the action as he “thinks.” Though, in respect, although that was what I meant in the passage about “Avatar Creation” ie the relation between Yahweh (avatar) and The Void (true form), but in the end, he's infinite and eternal as one with the Void, when he's not consciously assuming form and being tethered by dreams to give him a functioning shape within Creation.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

We see time and time again, they don't abuse their power or else, they could literally toy with everyone.

As I see it, the aspects simply aren’t capable of expressing the full power their concepts represent.

For example, when Death of the Endless tells Lucifer she wouldn’t be able to claim his soul, she’s probably saying she wouldn’t be able to kill Lucifer by herself; however, Lucifer is still subject to death.

I’m not sure if I’m explaining myself clearly.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

As I see it, the aspects simply aren’t capable of expressing the full power their concepts represent.

In a way, yeah, even Ultima said Morpheus is “limited,” but “Dream” is not.

For example, when Death of the Endless tells Lucifer she wouldn’t be able to claim his soul, she’s probably saying she wouldn’t be able to kill Lucifer by herself; however, Lucifer is still subject to death.

Death is tricky because I think either she or Destiny is the strongest in their respective aspect. However, even if she can't, Gaiman said it before it’s her job to take, not act, and he did say “When Lucifer dies, she’ll do it.”

Ultima was lenient about the fact that, The Endless may be surpassed by the Archangels in their lesser form, but he does then say that their expression of potency is still the same since they embody that concept in that specific to the fullest.

Essentially, if Death is a concept applicable to anyone and “The Endless” can exert their power over their concept then it’s also arguable that Death could, but, that's a guess from both of us. Although, unlike, the others, Death is exempt from anything except her own rules hence why it seems more reasonable for Death because Morpheus straight-up admits his inferiority to Lucifer.

I’m not sure if I’m explaining myself clearly.

No, I get what you mean.

 

[Weaver261]

Lucifer and Michael were always above their aspect, never their whole or even their border context of power in which they represent.

This claim is made by a lot of mental gymnastics. This was never stated in the comic directly. Heck, even Morpheus himself said that aside from Yahweh, Lucifer is the most powerful being and more powerful than Morpheus as per his own words. If Endless true extent scales above Lucifer, why would he be scared of Lucifer? You can say "it's just an aspect of Dream. So it's fine". Alright then, what do you mean by True Extent of Endless?
This word is also made up by you and others and never used in the comic as far as I know. There's the scan about current Morpheus we know is just an aspect. But what do we mean by "Aspect" exactly? The description here about Dream the endless is narrated by the Author. The sentence is about how current appearence of Dream the endless is just one of the aspect of his existence. But that doesn't mean Dream true extent > Morpheus. Why? This scan indicates that Morpheus was once in this form before he became current form we know.

It has been so long since I was you.

Not to even mention about how Dream the endless is perceived in various appearences by different beings. Martian Manhunter sees Morpheus as Mars God. His lover sees him as someone of her race when he came to Hell to look for her. So, I find it quite hard to believe that Dream True Extent > Morpheus since they are both the same. It's be easier for all of us if there's concrete scans about it instead of doing mental gymnastics to reach there.

Time is existence personified in which it can exist and will exist, he's closer to “Father Possibility” than actual being interconnected to the concept of time. Hell, even Ultima says Time transcends Yahweh.

I hope you stop treating Ultima's words as WOG here since his opinions won't change facts. You said Father Time is more of "Father Possibility" than Time. Sure sure. So is the Deep Change as per this scan. Everything is possible in Time. So what you gonna do with this information? Cuz Deep Change = Source/Light. It won't be possible for Night and Time to scale above Source anymore. And I would like remind you again that Big Bang that Source created is literally called "Dawn of Time" from which Endless are born.

No, the scan mentions about the rules that applies to all things, which was put when all was Void. This was made obvious when even the oldest aspect of Dream is also bound to those rules.

Predating Creation != Beyond Creation. Lucifer has been in void since birth and multiple times in his life. Just because you born before universe, doesn't make you universal level. So, I won't deal with these anymore.

There are many instances of The Endless (older incarnation than Morpheus predating) Creation.

The same issue in Lucifer states “Lucifer can die” by Death, herself and it was said several times by Noema of The Basanos and Morningstar, himself.

Death The Endless herself agreed that She has no claim over Lucifer. Lucifer can't die not because he is immortal but because he is deemed as necessary for creation by his father. Destiny even admitted that Lucifer can erase his existence by rewriting destiny book. But since Yahweh made Lucifer as necessary function of the creation, he will always come back. But not because of influence by Destiny The Endless but rather by his father. Don't even forget that Destiny the endless is just a side effect of Yahweh or rather Yahweh's wish to make Creation deterministic.

I think I've given enough proofs of why Night, Time and Endless won't scale above Yahweh, Source/Light/Overvoid, Lucifer and Michael.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

This claim is made by a lot of mental gymnastics. This was never stated in the comic directly. Heck, even Morpheus himself said that aside from Yahweh, Lucifer is the most powerful being and more powerful than Morpheus as per his own words. If Endless true extent scales above Lucifer, why would he be scared of Lucifer?

Morpheus isn't the true extent. That's the whole point. I don't know how you miss this.

You can say "it's just an aspect of Dream. So it's fine". Alright then, what do you mean by True Extent of Endless?

Their full abstract form, not a viewpoint since all viewpoints are replaceable, but the pure concept still remains.

Morpheus literally describes himself as a glinting light, a small facet, of his true self. He's simply a light reflecting off an “endless perfect jewel,” he scales nowhere near his true form. He states “he's not the jewel.”

This word is also made up by you and others and never used in the comic as far as I know. There's the scan about current Morpheus we know is just an aspect. But what do we mean by "Aspect" exactly? The description here about Dream the endless is narrated by the Author. The sentence is about how current appearence of Dream the endless is just one of the aspect of his existence. But that doesn't mean Dream true extent > Morpheus. Why? This scan indicates that Morpheus was once in this form before he became current form we know.

They're all the same “Dream” embodied through different viewpoints, they made that clear, as “Dream” they are each other, as their viewpoints, they're a multiplicity.

That's why when “Morpheus” dies, his viewpoint goes, not the concept.

Lucifer attending his funeral literally shows that he does “dream.” In the same vein, he's part of Destiny, in no more control of the concept than anyone else in Creation is.

Not to even mention about how Dream the endless is perceived in various appearences by different beings. Martian Manhunter sees Morpheus as Mars God. His lover sees him as someone of her race when he came to Hell to look for her. So, I find it quite hard to believe that Dream True Extent > Morpheus since they are both the same. It's be easier for all of us if there's concrete scans about it instead of doing mental gymnastics to reach there.

That's not the true abstract form because “Dream” in its purest is only a concept. The Endless, they perceive are the viewpoint, the anthropomized version of the concept.

I hope you stop treating Ultima's words as WOG here since his opinions won't change facts. You said Father Time is more of "Father Possibility" than Time. Sure sure. So is the Deep Change as per this scan. Everything is possible in Time. So what you gonna do with this information? Cuz Deep Change = Source/Light. It won't be possible for Night and Time to scale above Source anymore. And I would like remind you again that Big Bang that Source created is literally called "Dawn of Time" from which Endless are born.

He's a lot more knowledgeable in that respect than I assume you are especially since he doesn't ignore a lot of the details about the Sandman lore.

The Deep Change is accepted as the Speedforce as I've made that clear with evidence in the Cosmology page.

Again, The Endless as I show already predates the Big Bang of the current Creation as we know there's other Dreams much older than the current Creation. You can't change that status quo, but, it seems you're blatantly ignoring it.

Predating Creation != Beyond Creation. Lucifer has been in void since birth and multiple times in his life. Just because you born before universe, doesn't make you universal level. So, I won't deal with these anymore.

Yeah, dreams are in fact Creation level. Encompasses Lucifer as does all The Endless as they do to all things.

Death The Endless herself agreed that She has no claim over Lucifer. Lucifer can't die not because he is immortal but because he is deemed as necessary for creation by his father. Destiny even admitted that Lucifer can erase his existence by rewriting destiny book. But since Yahweh made Lucifer as necessary function of the creation, he will always come back. But not because of influence by Destiny The Endless but rather by his father. Don't even forget that Destiny the endless is a side effect of Yahweh or rather Yahweh's wish to make Creation deterministic.

Lucifer wasn't dying, he was held down by his power. Which he couldn't remove himself from, Death said she plans to watch, not do anything else.

Yeah, destroy “one viewpoint” and you get another. The entire story of Lucifer hinges him being bound to Destiny, he literally kills himself removing his name from the Book.

Yeah, and that is an aspect of their true self, Yahweh didn't even create The Endless, much less their abstract self.

I think I've given enough proofs of why Night, Time and Endless won't scale above Yahweh, Source/Light/Overvoid, Lucifer and Michael.

You claim “Deep Change Time” is referring to the entity, when the story moves say that nor is not even describing Time as how we see him in Overture. They're not the same thing, so your proof is dim-witted.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I have mutiple instances of Yahweh saying he does not control destiny nor dreams. I know every detail of the Lucifer lore.

 

[Weaver261]

Morpheus isn't the true extent. That's the whole point. I don't know how you miss this.

I can't even begin to understand why you would think True Extent of his concept > Morpheus now. Like it's really weird. I agree that Morpheus is just an aspect, an incarnation of Dream concept. But that doesn't make him less powerful than the concept itself. Since Dream as a concept doesn't have appearences, Morpheus current form and other previous incarnations are the personifications of that concept. If Dream as a concept is as much as powerful as you guys imagined to be, why Morpheus admitted that he is less powerful than Lucifer? Why Destiny is no more than just an side effect of Yahweh's creation. If Yahweh granted true freedom to creation, Destiny wouldn't even begin to exist. Since Destiny is the denial of freedom in life as all are written since the beginning of Time.

Their full abstract form, not a viewpoint since all viewpoints are replaceable, but the pure concept still remains.

Have you ever seen their full abstract form? Or has it ever brought up in the comic in comparison to others? I haven't seen one as far as I know.

Morpheus literally describes himself as a glinting light, a small facet, of his true self. He's simply a light reflecting off an “endless perfect jewel,” he scales nowhere near his true form. He states “he's not the jewel.”

I understand that it's natural to assume True Form > Aspect by basic power scaling. But it's not the case here. The narrator clearly said that current morpheus (appearence description is followed) is just an aspect of what we perceive Dream the endless since we can't perceive a concept. It doesn't have to do with power level. It's just incarnation appearences. If you can, please bring up a scan where true form dream > morpheus. Then, I will agree with this.

The Deep Change is accepted as the Speedforce as I've made that clear with evidence in the Cosmology page.

Speed force is just a part of Deep Change. If you claim speedforce is directly deep change, then Speedforce > Time since Deep Change emnates Time? If you gonna merge cosmologies, how Father Time and Deep Change will work together? If both Father Time and Deep Change's Time are the same, it's not posssible for Father Time to scale above Source/Light.

Again, The Endless as I show already predates the Big Bang of the current Creation as we know there's other Dreams much older than the current Creation. You can't change that status quo, but, it seems you're blatantly ignoring it.

Again...Predating != Encompassing. Endless are just concepts necessary for every iterations of creation. It's not that they encompass the creation. They are born alongside it. It's very evident by this scan that Big Bang aka The Dawn Of Time gives rise to the endless which is literally the same argument you are making at the start.

Their actual origin as just “pure context” comes from Time, the relentless beat in which all things exist, can exist, and will exist in their time of existence and non-existence as he gave The Endless their entire existence prior to all Creations.

You are confusing predating with encompassing. They aren't. They are born alongside creation for it to function. So in a sense, their existences predate big bang. But without creation and anything at all to act upon, they wouldn't exist at all. First Dream Incarnation's words here.

I was the dream of the first created things. I am needed and thus I remain.

It's really obvious by at this point that Endless only exist if there's anything in creation that make their purpose of existence. Death will leave the universe when all thing die. Destiny wouldn't exist if Yahweh granted The Creation true freedom without his plan. They are dependent on creation. So they aren't above Creation or beyond Creation. I hope you will try to understand what I mean here.

 

[Robo432343]

I have mutiple instances of Yahweh saying he does not control destiny nor dreams. I know every detail of the Lucifer lore.

im pretty sure we know already that Dream > the avatar of God but God > Dream
The controversial part is the true extent of the endless scaling above Lucifer and Michael

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

im pretty sure we know already that Dream > the avatar of God but God > Dream

Yes, but evidently they think God in his aspect is entirely above dreams. He's not. I already said God’s true form is above dreams in both repescts of aspect and whole.

The controversial part is the true extent of the endless scaling above Lucifer and Michael

That “avatar” of God is above The Archangels and created them. If dreams > God then dreams > Angels.

 

[Weaver261]

im pretty sure we know already that Dream > the avatar of God but God > Dream

Where does that even come from? I assume you are talking about how Yahweh's form is shaped by Dreams? I am baffled at how you guys overcomplicated current matter but take that scan as it's.
As I have said above, Endless concepts are by products of creations. Yahweh being shaped by dream is referenced back to Thousand Cats arc where humans dream together about a world where they dominate and the world changed since the start.
First of all Yahweh's form is just an appearence True God wore as Lucifer pointed it out. In Lucifer vol 1 comic, it was only Lucifer who knew current Form of Yahweh is just an appearence while others are mistaken that Yahweh is just a creator among many.
Dream shaped God's appearence because that's what people make out of God. If there was no people or being, how will Dream shape God for what purpose? God as an essence never changed or shaped by Dream. It was the perception of others that is changed. That's the same situation as Martian Manhunter seeing Morpheus as a Martian as per Author's words. "We make our gods for ourselves, in our own image."
Everything happens because Yahweh made it happen. Even Destiny itself is no more than a side effect of Yahweh's approach to creation. All of this scans from Vol 1 where God true form was never shown and we only saw Yahweh. How will you argue that Endless > Yahweh in this case?

 

[Robo432343]

Yes, but evidently they think God in his aspect is entirely above dreams. He's not.

I'm not sure because this scan does sort of imply that aspect of God > dream

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I can't even begin to understand why you would think True Extent of his concept > Morpheus now. Like it's really weird. I agree that Morpheus is just an aspect, an incarnation of Dream concept. But that doesn't make him less powerful than the concept itself. Since Dream as a concept doesn't have appearences, Morpheus current form and other previous incarnations are the personifications of that concept. If Dream as a concept is as much as powerful as you guys imagined to be, why Morpheus admitted that he is less powerful than Lucifer? Why Destiny is no more than just an side effect of Yahweh's creation. If Yahweh granted true freedom to creation, Destiny wouldn't even begin to exist. Since Destiny is the denial of freedom in life as all are written since the beginning of Time.

Again, Morpheus admits that he is not that jewel, he's just a mere facet of it. So what Morpheus says does not apply to Dream as the pure concept. Like I said Dream is a concept, Morpheus is a viewpoint with emotions that embody that concept for “that” specific Creation.

I ask what's hard to understand about that. Yahweh also can't grant freedom, that's paradoxical. The act of Creation created “destiny” as binding all things.

Yahweh clearly said, it was not a very his intention for predestination to exist, it simply grows from him because he's “God.” Reaffirming he didn't create predestination nor can he control it. That's why he cannot touch things without breaking them, as to why he cannot foresee “randomness” because it’s all predetermined.

Lucifer’s Cosmos is beyond God’s jurisdiction in #20, the next issue God, himself, states “predestination” has no end, reaffirming he's not allowing Lucifer to make his Cosmos, but the act itself in accordance with him was preplanned. Hence why Lucifer realizes at the time, to avoid that concept, he must be the maker, but the lord of it (He explains to Lord Arux to make a point, he's not trying to be Yahweh) Elaine had to learn that in a different manner when she became God, she's every substance in Creation not unlike like Yahweh, which questioned freedom as stated by the Angel who sought it his whole life.

If, Yahweh told her grandchild anything, it’s to be flexible and not be too attached for their creations make the choice themselves, but ultimately it still paves the way for predestination. Again, this is why Yahweh said being “God” was such a burden because they cannot seek something new. He also didn't foresee Elaine being in place of the person who was to challenge the Throne.

So, no, Yahweh can't “give” freedom. Which Destiny also embodies his opposite as do all The Endless. He can't control what's predetermined, he's just the one to be the center of it. Freedom was founded by experience when Lucifer left all his namesakes with a new naked “mask” untethered by Yahweh’s touch.

God created The Lightbringer. Lucifer gives it to the Mazikeen.

Creations sees him as the Adversary, Izanami takes his place.

Have you ever seen their full abstract form? Or has it ever brought up in the comic in comparison to others? I haven't seen one as far as I know.

They can never be their full self because they're always limited in a way (outside Death).

I understand that it's natural to assume True Form > Aspect by basic power scaling. But it's not the case here. The narrator clearly said that current morpheus (appearence description is followed) is just an aspect of what we perceive Dream the endless since we can't perceive a concept. It doesn't have to do with power level. It's just incarnation appearences. If you can, please bring up a scan where true form dream > morpheus. Then, I will agree with this.

I already did, Morpheus affirmation literally confirms it, he is not “the jewel even if the facet tries to think himself of it.”

Speed force is just a part of Deep Change. If you claim speedforce is directly deep change, then Speedforce > Time since Deep Change emnates Time? If you gonna merge cosmologies, how Father Time and Deep Change will work together? If both Father Time and Deep Change's Time are the same, it's not posssible for Father Time to scale above Source/Light.

If you claim this then Time being on the Source level is fine, but any less is not fine.

Again...Predating != Encompassing. Endless are just concepts necessary for every iterations of creation. It's not that they encompass the creation. They are born alongside it. It's very evident by this scan that Big Bang aka The Dawn Of Time gives rise to the endless which is literally the same argument you are making at the start.

The whole of Creation foundation is predestination as mentioned by Yahweh and Lucifer says that you shouldn't build of it, but, nevertheless the script in which things run in every scheme is in Destiny’s Book, which metaphorically “holds” the Universe, as Dream rewrote it when he brought back Creation.

You are confusing predating with encompassing. They aren't. They are born alongside creation for it to function. So in a sense, their existences predate big bang. But without creation and anything at all to act upon, they wouldn't exist at all. First Dream Incarnation's words here.

Yeah, he's no an aspect than is Morpheus, they all represent “Dream,” they're all the “Dream” of their Creation. The pure concept exists solely in Time being.

It's really obvious by at this point that Endless only exist if there's anything in creation that make their purpose of existence. Death will leave the universe when all thing die. Destiny wouldn't exist if Yahweh granted The Creation true freedom without his plan.

As above, Yahweh can't do that. Destiny as I said embodies freedom as well. He didn't write The “Plan” it existed as he made Creation.

They are dependent on creation. So they aren't above Creation or beyond Creation. I hope you will try to understand what I mean here.

No, I don't.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I'm not sure because this scan does sort of imply that aspect of God > dream

Asking a Muslim about Allah (Who is easily 0 in the most hardcore depiction) about being above anything is crazy. Either way, that's Morpheus, not the true concept.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Where does that even come from? I assume you are talking about how Yahweh's form is shaped by Dreams? I am baffled at how you guys overcomplicated current matter but take that scan as it's.
As I have said above, Endless concepts are by products of creations. Yahweh being shaped by dream is referenced back to Thousand Cats arc where humans dream together about a world where they dominate and the world changed since the start.
First of all Yahweh's form is just an appearence True God wore as Lucifer pointed it out. In Lucifer vol 1 comic, it was only Lucifer who knew current Form of Yahweh is just an appearence while others are mistaken that Yahweh is just a creator among many.
Dream shaped God's appearence because that's what people make out of God. If there was no people or being, how will Dream shape God for what purpose? God as an essence never changed or shaped by Dream. It was the perception of others that is changed. That's the same situation as Martian Manhunter seeing Morpheus as a Martian as per Author's words. "We make our gods for ourselves, in our own image."
Everything happens because Yahweh made it happen. Even Destiny itself is no more than a side effect of Yahweh's approach to creation. All of this scans from Vol 1 where God true form was never shown and we only saw Yahweh. How will you argue that Endless > Yahweh in this case?

This is how I know you haven't properly read the stories, but my response to this will show, Yahweh isn't bound to Destiny, but he didn't create it.

Yahweh is affected by dreams, plain and simple.

 

[Weaver261]

Morpheus admits that he is not that jewel that's just a mere facet of it. So what Morpheus says does not apply to Dream as the pure concept.

Why? Morpheus is still a facet of the concept of Dream. He represent Dream and his words are valid and applicable to the concept also. It doesn't make sense for his words to not apply on dream concept. Then, everything Morpheus said about his concept in the comic aren't applied to Dream Concept at all as per your logic? Does this make sense to you? You are only cheery picking here.

Yahweh clearly said, it was not a very his intention for predestination to exist, it simply grows from him because he's “God.” Reaffirming he didn't create predestination nor can he control it.

You are overcomplicating it. Yahweh just by being God encompasses everything in existence including the endless. Without him these endlesses wouldn't exist at all as there's no plan to outgrow. Then how will you argue Endless > Yahweh? You are gonna say something like this again... "But Endless predates creation so they can exist without yahweh". Yes it's true to some extent but as per Dream's own words, they only exist because there's a need. That makes endless dependent on Creation.

He can't control what's predetermined, he's just the one to be the center of it. Freedom was founded by experience when Lucifer left all his namesakes with a new naked “mask” untethered by Yahweh’s touch.

It was never stated of how Yahweh can't control the destiny. You are getting the orders wrong. Destiny is merely a side effect of Yahweh's plan. He doesn't need to control since it was him who made destiny into what it's. At this point, you are playing around with words to fit your narrative when it can be interpreted into different meanings.

I already did, Morpheus affirmation literally confirms it, he is not “the jewel even if the facet tries to think himself of it.”

Morpheus said to first incarnation of Dream that he was once in that form. Every facets aside from current Morpheus is also Morpheus. They are all one and the same in a sense. This scan clearly stated how multiplicity you mentioned earlier just a function of space thus illusory. If all facets of a jewel are the same, then the jewel as a whole is also a facet in that sense. Appearences may be changed in each aspect but their essence remain the same across all aspects. Then, how are Morpheus words not valid to represent Dream concept as a whole?

 

[Weaver261]

This is how I know you haven't properly read the stories, but my response to this will show, Yahweh isn't bound to Destiny, but he didn't create it.

Yahweh is affected by dreams, plain and simple.

I will stop my arguments here since I've said all I needed to. I doubt it would change anything at all since it's pretty much determined to pass since the start. I hope others to read my arguments too before voting here.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Why? Morpheus is still a facet of the concept of Dream. He represent Dream and his words are valid and applicable to the concept also. It doesn't make sense for his words to not apply on dream concept. Then, everything Morpheus said about his concept in the comic aren't applied to Dream Concept at all as per your logic? Does this make sense to you? You are only cheery picking here.

This explanation is nuanced, yes. However, “dreams” power of expression isn't always just Morpheus, as per Yahweh. Yahweh statement that “power external” shows dreams in their pure sense, which is interchangeable with the power to be had as justthe abstract form of the Endless, something that isn't possessed by Morpheus since he had no direct correlation to Yahweh. Geyes and Garames abusing “dreams and belief” literally is how they got Godhood.

As the power of “influence and dreams” is altogether the same as the pure Dream since it’s just the concept, Morpheus only represent a facet of it “in” Creation, since he didn't create the gods, but humans did. They did so through “dreams.”

Ultima words it a lot better, so I’ll just quote him:

Largely because they're the source of the power of dreams, which shaped Yahweh into what he is to begin with, and the fact they're portrayed as being the basic conditions originating all versions of Creation.

On that basis for The Endless > Lucifer and Michael:

That retort doesn't work because it tries to set up an opposition between "The true Endless have dominion over Lucifer and Michael because they're more powerful" and "The true Endless have dominion over Lucifer and Michael because the two were created by a Creator" such that the latter can act as an explanation in place of the former, when that opposition doesn't really exist, since the two are not mutually exclusive. Destiny, for example, is just a side-effect of Yahweh, but that doesn't mean that he actually isn't more powerful than Lucifer and Michael, that's just a non-sequitur. It's just the difference between a power (Destiny) and the one exerting that power (Yahweh). Even if the dominion over Lucifer and Michael ultimately flows forth from Yahweh, Destiny still is said dominion and therefore in his full concept is more powerful than them on that basis.

Again, Morpheus has limits, “dreams” do not, they shape the real and is what gives context to existence as a whole, every version of it. The Dream of A Thousand Cats story literally shows “said power” and that's without “Morpheus.”

You are overcomplicating it. Yahweh just by being God encompasses everything in existence including the endless. Without him these endlesses wouldn't exist at all as there's no plan to outgrow. Then how will you argue Endless > Yahweh? You are gonna say something like this again... "But Endless predates creation so they can exist without yahweh". Yes it's true to some extent but as per Dream's own words, they only exist because there's a need. That makes endless dependent on Creation.

Yahweh is affected by dreams, though I literally said Yahweh > True Extent of the Endless, it’s The Endless > The Archangels, I'm making a point about.

Yahweh didn't choose to be God, he can not be his own maker, thus “dreams.”

Lucifer can't be his own maker, he's a creation of Yahweh.

Lucifer can't be what he doesn't want to be “The Devil,” because that's a human stereotype.

As he said it “They can not be their own maker.” Albeit Yahweh is > Lucifer > Morpheus, but on the flipside: Yahweh > Purely Dream > Lucifer.

It was never stated of how Yahweh can't control the destiny. You are getting the orders wrong. Destiny is mere a side effect of Yahweh's plan. He doesn't need to control since it was him who made destiny into what it's. At this point, you are playing around with words to fit your narrative when it can be interpreted into different meanings.

Destiny isn't a mere side-effect of the Plan, he “IS” the plan. Semantics or not, they're the result of Creation-making, not side-effects. “Side-effects” came from Lucifer snarky remarks on how much he hates Destiny, which he's bound to and all Creation as well.

Hence even with “freedom” Lucifer questions Yahweh's prospal as his “function to say no” as he was intended to be. So said “freedom” and saying “no” is still, in fact a Destiny via through choice.

Morpheus said to first incarnation of Dream that he was once in that form. Every facets aside from current Morpheus is also Morpheus. They are all one and the same in a sense. This scan clearly stated how multiplicity you mentioned earlier just a function of space thus illusory. If all facets of a jewel are the same, then the jewel as a whole is also a facet in that sense. Appearences may be changed in each aspect but their essence remain the same across all aspects. Then, how are Morpheus words valid to represent Dream concept as a whole?

The apperances is based on The Endless “shape” as an anthropomorphic concept. You can't see a “pure Dream” because you can't see the “unreal.”

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I will stop my arguments here since I've said all I needed to. I doubt it would change anything at all since it's pretty much determined to pass since the start. I hope others to read my arguments too before voting here.

Funny enough, they upvote it without reading it, there are only a few that'll read your side, and even fewer on mine since they had their mind set prior to the argument.

 

[Weaver261]

The Dream of A Thousand Cats story literally shows “said power” and that's without “Morpheus.”

You should fix it since the cat in the dream is Morpheus but being perceived as a cat. That speech bubble is unique to current Morpheus if I am not mistaken.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

You should fix it since the cat in the dream is Morpheus but being perceived as a cat. That speech bubble is unique to current Morpheus if I am not mistaken.

Morpheus isn't the “Dream of that Creation.” He can take shape and memories of others dream because their essence is embodied into each other. That's why when Daniel transfigured he knew all that Morpheus knew minus personality. Dream also isn't bound to time, so he could travel to that point “in time” technically, but as Morpheus, he isn't that “Dream of the Endless.”

As per his statement:

“Cats eyes can see an infinity from now” or something along that line.

My point was the powers of dreams are altogether reflected as something “Pure Dream” could do, and Morpheus couldn't unless he uses dreams himself as he did to rebirth the Universe in Overture.

 

[Phronemos]

The series has already explained this through Morpheus' own admissions. It's clear that Lucifer is somehow influenced by The Endless, but as Goofy mentioned, their pure abstraction isn't any stronger.

Everything else is headcanon.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I’ll give you another read

Where does that even come from? I assume you are talking about how Yahweh's form is shaped by Dreams? I am baffled at how you guys overcomplicated current matter but take that scan as it's.

Yeah, he admits that it is indeed a “power external.”

As I have said above, Endless concepts are by products of creations. Yahweh being shaped by dream is referenced back to Thousand Cats arc where humans dream together about a world where they dominate and the world changed since the start.
First of all Yahweh's form is just an appearence True God wore as Lucifer pointed it out. In Lucifer vol 1 comic, it was only Lucifer who knew current Form of Yahweh is just an appearence while others are mistaken that Yahweh is just a creator among many.

Yahweh isn't a form, it’s a name. The “old-man” disguise was what he took so he wouldn't melt Elaine’s brain trying to comprehend him. I doubt Lucifer ever saw his true form.

And no, Yahweh is just another Creator. So many instances when this was said during Lucifer.

Dream shaped God's appearence because that's what people make out of God. If there was no people or being, how will Dream shape God for what purpose? God as an essence never changed or shaped by Dream. It was the perception of others that is changed. That's the same situation as Martian Manhunter seeing Morpheus as a Martian as per Author's words. "We make our gods for ourselves, in our own image."

Yeah, Morpheus, a projected viewpoint of just Dream, can look like anything. He (Morpheus) doesn't have a fix form and “Dream” itself has no form.

Everything happens because Yahweh made it happen.

Applies to his Creation. He literally said he's not controlling the Circle of Eternity at that point. The Endless isn't his “Creation.”

Even Destiny itself is no more than a side effect of Yahweh's approach to creation. All of this scans from Vol 1 where God true form was never shown and we only saw Yahweh. How will you argue that Endless > Yahweh in this case?

Destiny is more a “side-effect” of Creation-making, it’s no longer specific to Yahweh, so the reach of “Destiny” and its scope is much larger than Yahweh or The Archangels.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The series has already explained this through Morpheus' own admissions. It's clear that Lucifer is somehow influenced by The Endless, but as Goofy mentioned, their pure abstraction isn't any stronger.

Everything else is headcanon.

Morpheus is weaker I mentioned this. The pure abstraction is far stronger than Morpheus and Lucifer.

 

[Phronemos]

Morpheus is weaker I mentioned this. The pure abstraction is far stronger than Morpheus and Lucifer.

You insist on not understanding, but no one denies that Morpheus is an aspect of Dream. But when Yahweh speaks in the guise of an "old bastard," are his words limited only by the body he wears? That's exactly what you're trying to say.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

You insist on not understanding, but no one denies that Morpheus is an aspect of Dream. But when Yahweh speaks in the guise of an "old bastard," are his words limited only by the body he wears? That's exactly what you're trying to say.

No. I only said “Yahweh” is affected by “dreams.” I never discern that he was ever weaker, but Time certainly is beyond Yahweh, yes. Ultima and I weren't so sure, but, we both agreed Yahweh is probably stronger than Dream as a pure concept.

 

[Phronemos]

No. I only said “Yahweh” is affected by “dreams.” I never discern that he was ever weaker, but Time certainly is beyond Yahweh, yes. Ultima and I weren't so sure, but, we both agreed Yahweh is probably stronger than Dream as a pure concept.

Why would Morpheus be weaker? You're missing the point of what was stated about The Endless in The Sandman #21. They don't have a stronger "self" to which they are rooted. They simply exist in a form beyond our grasp. Because they are universal constants. This shouldn't be this difficult.

I'm not sure about Night and Time, but I never got the impression that they were so far beyond Yahweh. It's safest to assume that Yahweh and Lucifer, by Morpheus' own admission, are stronger than them, but there are theories, and I'm fine with that.