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Denji vs. Ellen Joe (Chainsaw Man vs. Zenless Zone Zero) | [4-7-1] (GRACE)
- Thread starter Sooshirohl
- Start date
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Ngl, Ellen probably loses to the point where it's not even fair. Victoria Housekeeping jumping Denji would be more of a fight imo but that's just me
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Honestly same, I didn't proclaimed it as I want to see more arguments but it seems like we have the same sentiment that this is a stomp in Denji favor
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i mean, i feel like incapping denji by just draining through all his blood wouldn't be impossible. he's already starting the fight off with less blood given he uses some to transform. ellen's giant shears would be more than capable of straight up dismembering denji which would make him lose blood faster, and freezing him would also make it easier to just chop his limbs off.
denji at this point in the series was basically being incapped by stuff like getting bisected and having his neck broken. i honestly don't think it'd really be that hard for ellen to do either of those. and again, vital view would make ellen harder for denji to land a hit on, meaning he wouldn't be able to reliably use her blood to heal himself. and she can also still just...freeze her blood or denji's blood with her w-engine
i think the arguments presented for denji make sense at least, but i don't personally think this is a complete stomp imo. i feel like at the very least ellen would make denji work for a W
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Didn't he fight for 3 days straight against eternity devil though?
Then what stops Ellen to cut his head off given how she massively outskills and has a speed amp that lets her cut him off before he can realize he was cut?
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to be fair the eternity devil was basically giving him an endless amount of blood to fuel himself during that entire fight. still definitely impressive but i think the context is important
vital view isn't something ellen can activate at will, it usually only triggers when agents dodge attacks. the window is also brief, usually only lasting a a few seconds at most. denji's fighting style is also aggressive and wild, so she might have to focus more on not getting shredded by his massive chainsaws rather than getting time in for a counterattack
also i mean, does ellen massively outskill? she's probably more formally "trained" i guess, but i think denji's combat intelligence is generally better than hers. the fact that he also actively fights dirty is something i imagine would probably catch her off guard
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Even without it, Denji still outlasts via being able to not reacting to his transformation which also shreds him apart iirc
She can pull it off against people much skilled than Denji
Agents that can deflect bullets are already enough to no diff this version of Denji in skill tbf
She is too much acrobatical than Denji who doesn't have any notable feats besides this?
"Even before his proper training, Denji has shown to be an extremely practical fighter thanks to being in the devil-hunting business ever since he was still a child. He's perfectly willing to aim for the weak points of an opponent's body right at the start of a fight and exploit those injured areas"
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fair enough i guess, but i mean regardless, stats are pretty much even and both have pretty valid wincons. either ellen gets an opening to just lob denji's head off or just drains through all his blood quickly by dismembering him or denji just outlasts her with his superior stamina + supernatural willpower. i feel like you can make a good enough argument for either to where i don't personally think this is a stomp
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vsbw try not to put zzz chars against mfs with regeneration they cannot one shot 
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Can you at least give a proper arguments instead always trolling? You always like this whenever I saw you in HSR/Genshin threads and it's pretty annoying to seevsbw try not to put zzz chars against mfs with regeneration they cannot one shot
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I vote Ellen then
Massively outskills to oblivion + Denji has no experience in dealing with people of her level (we actually saw what happened with Kishibe) + Vital view helps alot + Ice can stun or slow him down and hamper his regen (key factor being stunning and slowing movements) which makes this more in favor of her
I firmly believe Ellen is capable of chopping his head off
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I'm honestly waiting for Gunshy respond on Zetsu arguments on Ellen favor ngl, but it seems like it's not a stomp at all
Pyro9278
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Zetsu's arguments only prove it wasn't a stomp, but I think Denji has a better chance of winning than Ellen. Denji only needs to regenerate and eventually deliver a fatal blow to Ellen, while Ellen has to deal with Denji's regeneration and resilience, his cunning in combat (Ellen is more skilled, Denji more intelligent in his ability to improvise and adapt), and above all, Denji's constant attacks.
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I wasn't planning to considering it doesn't attack any of my points with proof. The main argument being that Ellen is an acrobat and is more skilled. How much more skilled is unknown for one and her level of acrobatics and how she uses it in battle and how exactly it will hinder denji is also in question.
Better yet, my points still stand. Denji is an immovable object that will shred anything in his path, that including Ellen.
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My only issue for Denji is his skill, Ellen, despite not in that level of bullshit skilled, are still well trained due of her job with Victoria Housekeeping, and I can see she will able to figured it out about his regeneration, since remind me, in this version Denji just fight like a madman, right?
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ellen would figure out denji could regenerate pretty quickly yeah. i'd imagine she'd be taken aback when she say, lobs his arm off only for it to grow back, but considering she has experience fighting regenerating creatures she'd probably be able to adjust fairly quickly
denji does fight aggressively and recklessly yes, but as the arguments in his favor were saying, that gives him an edge in the sense that he's insanely unpredictable. you can say ellen is probably more formally "skilled" but like, it's kind of hard to utilize that supposed skill advantage against a guy who's essentially just flailing around giant chainsaws like mad. also as aforementioned, denji is still a very crafty fighter who does not hesitate to fight dirty. if he sees literally any way to gain an upper hand, he'll take it. ellen does fight against animalistic ethereals and crafty thugs/hollow raiders, but denji's kind of like, all of that rolled into one. i wouldn't really say it's something she has a whole lot of experience dealing with, and i definitely think denji could just do something absolutely crazy that would 100% catch her off guard
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Denji FRA
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The Ethereal that been fought was shown to flailing like a madlad, but that's because they are an actual monster, while Denji is just an insane man
Honestly I still think skill wise Ellen is having the edge here, as she can use her freeze to halt his regeneration and keep up the distance, but still tho, Denji being insane man is hella wild to predict
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But overall, it's a high-mid-diff for Denji to win so I can conclude that this is in his favor so count me in
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counted, that makes 7 votes so i believe that should be grace
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Why is there not a single gif/scan of Elen using her ice abilities on her profile? Not even in the notable attack section. If I knew how easy it was to pull off (and how potent it was) it'd be easy to pick a side. I know someone sent a video here, but why is it not on her profile like c'mon that shouldn't even be allowed unless it's like a TTG or smth 
Anyways, I'm not voting, but Denji's arguments don't seem too convincing and I don't think enough people have argued for the other side. So it's disappointing the fight is already in grace, but what can ya do? The only convincing thing I've seen in Denji's favor that isn't vague is his regeneration which is absolutely helpful. It's the only thing that makes this fight not end in 2 seconds. People have brought up Denji's "chaotic nature" and that he'd "fight dirty and catch her by surprise," but I've seen no explanations as to WHAT he could do to take her by surprise that would meaningfully catch her off-guard.
And I have to say, even as a CSM fan Denji's Regen is confusing as ****. First, instead of healing, it should honestly be Regeneration. Yes it is active, but there are character's with regeneration who also have active regenerative skills as opposed to passive regeneration. But that's more a nitpick. The bigger issues is differentiating his regenerations. His self-healing section shows regeneration feats of him pulling his cord to regenerate as well as feats of him regenerating without doing so. Which is what I'm guessing to be the separate regeneration. That should be removed and reserved only for the physiology page if they are actually different. It will absolutely confuse non-fans, especially because the weakness section mentions he NEEDS to pull his ripcord to regenerate, but doesn't specify it only stops him from using one of two regeneration "types" he has.
Anyways, I'm not voting, but Denji's arguments don't seem too convincing and I don't think enough people have argued for the other side. So it's disappointing the fight is already in grace, but what can ya do? The only convincing thing I've seen in Denji's favor that isn't vague is his regeneration which is absolutely helpful. It's the only thing that makes this fight not end in 2 seconds. People have brought up Denji's "chaotic nature" and that he'd "fight dirty and catch her by surprise," but I've seen no explanations as to WHAT he could do to take her by surprise that would meaningfully catch her off-guard.
And I have to say, even as a CSM fan Denji's Regen is confusing as ****. First, instead of healing, it should honestly be Regeneration. Yes it is active, but there are character's with regeneration who also have active regenerative skills as opposed to passive regeneration. But that's more a nitpick. The bigger issues is differentiating his regenerations. His self-healing section shows regeneration feats of him pulling his cord to regenerate as well as feats of him regenerating without doing so. Which is what I'm guessing to be the separate regeneration. That should be removed and reserved only for the physiology page if they are actually different. It will absolutely confuse non-fans, especially because the weakness section mentions he NEEDS to pull his ripcord to regenerate, but doesn't specify it only stops him from using one of two regeneration "types" he has.
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Granted nobody really argued against that point or asked for visual feats. I just assumed we all already knew about his feats in that area in general, so I didn't feel the need to go beyond what was already brought up. I still believe everyone gets the general consensus, which is why specifics about Denji's chaotic nature were not questioned.
I can't really tell you what it should be named, but I can explain how his regeneration works in general. One method is drinking blood and the other is being a hybrid. The explanations linked should be enough to give you an idea of how regeneration for devils and hybrids works in general. His profile just showcases his specific feats of regeneration, with the only difference being that Denji can casually function and move while being decapitated and attach his head back onto his body mid battle.
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I never asked for Denji's feats of being unpredictable or chaotic. I've read the manga up to the start of Part 2, I know he is. But Denji's side never explained how he could utilize that in any meaningful way against Ellen. Not a single example of what he could do that can be addressed. Just a vague "he's crazy so he'll catch her off-guard." as if that isn't a circumstantial statement. Which it is. You would get more meaningful discourse in general if someone offered a simple example or gave a general notion of what he could do to catch her off guard, or exploit a weakness, etc.
It was more a nitpick. I don't think vswiki does a very good at differentiating them to be honest. It seems vibes-based.
Alright, I get that. I'm saying the profile makes things a bit confusing for the average reader because in the profile it says under weaknesses that he needs to pull his cord in order to regenerate. However, this is (unintentionally) deceptive, because there are two types of regeneration. The weakness section should mention that the weakness only applies to the hybrid regeneration. Because we know he can regenerate without yanking his cord.
Arkenis
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I'm still wondering how he deals with being frozen partially, breaking free and losing ton of blood from it. It won't take her much to realize he needs blood to regen. I do agree Denji's way of fighting would make her at a loss though, he'd keep swinging even if his torso got destroyed.
It doesn't have to be outright argued imo, that's discussing something we all know and can see on profile. Ellen isn't some smart character either, she's a regular hs student, really anything Denji does will be unpredictable when he busts out chainsaws from his body and starts jumping around swinging at her. Something as simple as him seeing her use ice and he goes and finds gasoline and lights himself on fire would be unpredictable and chaotic.
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It can, because a lot of the unpredictable things he does is down to the circumstances who specifically he's fighting. Nor is it constructive to vaguely go "He's unpredictable, so he'll catch her off guard" without elaborating/going into further detail. I personally don't think most of the things on his profile would meaningfully catch her off-guard, and I ain't even a ZZZ goon (In fact I intentionally go out of my way to avoid it).
That's just a longer funnier way of saying him attacking her will catch her off-guard... but it won't. Because they are fighting and SBA means both are aware they are fighting and at risk. He also starts the fight transformed. She's not going to be caught off-guard by her enemy attacking her, that's absurd.
That's only if gasoline is around, and useless. Flash-freezing would instantaneously put out the fire and freeze the gasoline on his body rendering it inert. Nor would she allow him to run away and go do that. She would be too busy freezing and chopping him to pieces.
This is exactly why I said these "chaotic" choices he makes needs to be discussed. A lot of them can be counter-argued if brought up. Because it's clear this thread isn't getting a lot of traction or arguments given it's already in grace on the second page, so it's clear people don't want to go through the profiles and address EVERY single feat of him being "unpredictable" because that's tedious and boring, and doesn't even matter because a lot of the unpredictable things he does is based on who he's fighting. Again, circumstantial. So mentioning things he could do that would distract her or shock her or whatever is worth mentioning.
Arkenis
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It's more so Denji fights in random ways at times, regardless of circumstance, he can create a way to fight her that'll be hard to predict or counter. Denji doesn't just attack, he figures out counters to his enemy, that's why I brought up the fire example.
He can just find it in NYC. I'm not sure what degrees flash freezing is at. He'd definitely be able to run away though. I am in agreement that he'd probably be severely harmed by the ice with repeated flash freezing due to its range though
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i do kinda wish there was a bit more arguing on ellen's side, but given people obviously know way more about denji than ellen, i'm not really surprised. i think the arguments in denji's favor were fine, i do think this fight can go either way and i don't think it's a total wash for either character, but i think ellen also has some good arguments that would've been nice to see talked more about. it is what it is though. the general lack of proper photos/gifs for ellen's abilities probably didn't help since it's harder to argue for her when you don't have a clear visual of how her abilities work (which, as someone who's been working on the ZZZ character pages, i am aware that's an issue and i'm working to rectify that)
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Almost every single feat on his profile is him fighting in a random way suited specifically towards his opponent. A lot of those tactics wouldn't work against most people because they were specifically to counter who he was fighting.
"Create a way to fight her that'll be hard to predict or counter," When has he ever created a new fighting style on the fly to catch someone who actually knows how to throw hands off-guard? I don't know what he could do that'll be hard to predict or counter. What counter could he exploit here that he could reasonably pull off without being stopped?
Yeah, but he'd have to run miles to find any. He's not even familiar with the place either. Nor will Ellen just let him run away to do so.
It's not even just the ice that would be harmful. It's the fact it freezes the opponent for an entire 2.5 seconds (It says 2-3 seconds in the description, so I just used the average). She could absolutely cut his head off and all of his limbs in that amount of time. And that means no pulling his cord to regenerate.
I'd just hope the people who voted for Denji retract their vote to wait for arguments from the other side (And prolly like, contact people in the ZZZ General discussion thread or smth about the match too).
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I think they'd be a fair bit more willing. I know people are less likely to click through links tho, yeah. That's why it's good to use gifs/scans in the notable attacks section.
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yeah, i've just preferred to stick attack gifs into the abilities section if possible when making the character pages because i think people are just more likely to actually look at the animations if they're right in front of them rather than having to click on a link to get taken to a video with them lol
ellen doesn't have any attack gifs atm because there just weren't any available on the ZZZ wiki for her. i'm probably just gonna have to either get footage from pre-existing videos or record my own footage so i can give her proper gifs for her page
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I wouldn't rely on a video either unless it's uploaded to vs wiki since YT videos are prone to be taken down. Otherwise creating gifs from videos to link are generally better. But yeah, you are right about the rest.
It can take a while, but it's worth it.
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Already did, almost some of them aren't interested at all, there's Naito that did appeared earlier here but he think it's stomp in Denji favor
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