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Denji vs. Ellen Joe (Chainsaw Man vs. Zenless Zone Zero) | [4-7-1] (GRACE)

Sooshirohl said:
i do kinda wish there was a bit more arguing on ellen's side, but given people obviously know way more about denji than ellen, i'm not really surprised. i think the arguments in denji's favor were fine, i do think this fight can go either way and i don't think it's a total wash for either character, but i think ellen also has some good arguments that would've been nice to see talked more about. it is what it is though. the general lack of proper photos/gifs for ellen's abilities probably didn't help since it's harder to argue for her when you don't have a clear visual of how her abilities work (which, as someone who's been working on the ZZZ character pages, i am aware that's an issue and i'm working to rectify that)
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But..... You are also ZZZ supporters too, as an OP, you can argue as well kekw
 
Kisaragi_Megumi said:
But..... You are also ZZZ supporters too, as an OP, you can argue as well kekw
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oh yeah, i can argue and cast a vote myself, right? i uh, technically haven't even done that yet lol. i kind of just assumed i was supposed to remain neutral as the person who made the thread
 
Sooshirohl said:
oh yeah, i can argue and cast a vote myself, right? i uh, technically haven't even done that yet lol. i kind of just assumed i was supposed to remain neutral as the person who made the thread
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arigato-fail.gif

Smh, it's a common thing for the OP of matches to arguing as well (not for self-vote tho, surprisingly majority of people here are unaware you can do that in your own thread lmao)
 
I'm willing to argue in Ellen's favor in place of a supporter if a person who voted removes their vote to pause grace. Not even out of pettiness, but moreso respect I feel like. There has barely been any engaging argument in the thread and just adding a win to the profile with barely any arguments feels mickey as hell.
 
LaserPrecision said:
I'm willing to argue in Ellen's favor in place of a supporter if a person who voted removes their vote to pause grace. Not even out of pettiness, but moreso respect I feel like. There has barely been any engaging argument in the thread and just adding a win to the profile with barely any arguments feels mickey as hell.
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oi wdym by that bro



anyways, I'm voting Denji

Their AP gap is like 20%, and although Ellen does have crit dmg buffs to make it higher it's not gonna affect much
Their skill honestly shouldn't be much different either, Denji fighting devil his entire life isn't much different than Ellen fighting Etherials for work either. Denji has been fighting for longer probably but it's really not that much of an advantage, especially since this is Pre-Training Denji
Ellen's freezing ability doesn't really perma-incap Denji cuz if he hits him again he procs Shatter, which, although it causes an additional burst of damage, would just break him out of the freeze. NOT hitting him means he just thaw out after a couple of seconds anyways cuz of how her ice works

So for the most part they're dead even and would jut be slashing each other until one of them dies

except Denji has significantly better stamina and pain tolerance even without considering his regeneration. Ellen's stamina is notoriously bad due to her poor school/work balance, and is forced to carry around candy in order to give herself short bursts of energy. Even small skirmishes can make her pass out from exhaustion Denji, on the other hand, is significantly more overworked due to his lifestyle, barely eats food at all, and still has more than enough energy to mow down devils day by day. His pain tolerance is also obviously insane compared to Ellen, who has literally no pain tolerance feats

IMO they just keep hitting each other but Ellen tires out far quicker even though she's doing a bit more damage
 
LaserPrecision said:
It's not even just the ice that would be harmful. It's the fact it freezes the opponent for an entire 2.5 seconds (It says 2-3 seconds in the description, so I just used the average). She could absolutely cut his head off and all of his limbs in that amount of time. And that means no pulling his cord to regenerate.
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The main issue with this is that non-Anomaly characters in-game can't proc their attribute anomalies very quickly at all. Ellen would need to hit him over a dozen times for the effect to happen, and that's assuming Denji not only stands there and takes it, but also doesn't hit her back

Ellen hitting Denji a few times is a minor inconvenience. Denji hitting Ellen a few times is legitimately certain death
 
Mickey1940 said:
anyways, I'm voting Denji

Their AP gap is like 20%, and although Ellen does have crit dmg buffs to make it higher it's not gonna affect much
Their skill honestly shouldn't be much different either, Denji fighting devil his entire life isn't much different than Ellen fighting Etherials for work either. Denji has been fighting for longer probably but it's really not that much of an advantage, especially since this is Pre-Training Denji
Ellen's freezing ability doesn't really perma-incap Denji cuz if he hits him again he procs Shatter, which, although it causes an additional burst of damage, would just break him out of the freeze. NOT hitting him means he just thaw out after a couple of seconds anyways cuz of how her ice works

So for the most part they're dead even and would jut be slashing each other until one of them dies

except Denji has significantly better stamina and pain tolerance even without considering his regeneration. Ellen's stamina is notoriously bad due to her poor school/work balance, and is forced to carry around candy in order to give herself short bursts of energy. Even small skirmishes can make her pass out from exhaustion Denji, on the other hand, is significantly more overworked due to his lifestyle, barely eats food at all, and still has more than enough energy to mow down devils day by day. His pain tolerance is also obviously insane compared to Ellen, who has literally no pain tolerance feats

IMO they just keep hitting each other but Ellen tires out far quicker even though she's doing a bit more damage
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counted and we're back at grace 👍
 
Mickey1940 said:
oi wdym by that bro
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lol, I forgot that was ur username.
Mickey1940 said:
anyways, I'm voting Denji

Their AP gap is like 20%, and although Ellen does have crit dmg buffs to make it higher it's not gonna affect much
Their skill honestly shouldn't be much different either, Denji fighting devil his entire life isn't much different than Ellen fighting Etherials for work either. Denji has been fighting for longer probably but it's really not that much of an advantage, especially since this is Pre-Training Denji
Ellen's freezing ability doesn't really perma-incap Denji cuz if he hits him again he procs Shatter, which, although it causes an additional burst of damage, would just break him out of the freeze. NOT hitting him means he just thaw out after a couple of seconds anyways cuz of how her ice works

So for the most part they're dead even and would jut be slashing each other until one of them dies

except Denji has significantly better stamina and pain tolerance even without considering his regeneration. Ellen's stamina is notoriously bad due to her poor school/work balance, and is forced to carry around candy in order to give herself short bursts of energy. Even small skirmishes can make her pass out from exhaustion Denji, on the other hand, is significantly more overworked due to his lifestyle, barely eats food at all, and still has more than enough energy to mow down devils day by day. His pain tolerance is also obviously insane compared to Ellen, who has literally no pain tolerance feats

IMO they just keep hitting each other but Ellen tires out far quicker even though she's doing a bit more damage
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Tolerance and stamina is fair, though I do think Denji is far less likely to land hits than Ellen. As noted on her profile she can slow down time to evade and land attacks. Both of which slow people comparable to them to a crawl. Not to mention Denji needing to regenerate in rapid succession quickly drains his stamina compared to usual. When Reze got her hands on him and continued blowing him up, he didn't even last a minute before he was reduced to a charred human chicken strip. Her ice also doesn't need to last long to be useful here. It lasts roughly 2.5 seconds which is more than enough time to decapitate and sever all of his limbs. So he won't be able to yank his cord to rely on that regeneration, that's for sure. Their experience gap isn't large, but just from watching the two fight visually, you can tell Ellen is a significantly better fighter (Neither have skill statements, so yes, I will be going by visuals). She's also quite acrobatic and hard to land a hit on especially when paired with the slow-mo stuff when being attacked.
Mickey1940 said:
The main issue with this is that non-Anomaly characters in-game can't proc their attribute anomalies very quickly at all. Ellen would need to hit him over a dozen times for the effect to happen, and that's assuming Denji not only stands there and takes it, but also doesn't hit her back

Ellen hitting Denji a few times is a minor inconvenience. Denji hitting Ellen a few times is legitimately certain death
Click to expand...
Landing dozens of hits shouldn't be difficult at all. Lots of those attacks in the video linked on page one looks like she throws over a dozen cuts in like 1 second against enemies which can keep up (Tho it looked like it required less than a dozen to proc it tbh). Even if procing the ice took a little bit of time, Ellen would make up for it for being the superior close quarters combatant than the dude who just flails his arm. Being harder to tag while landing plenty attacks of her own. I think Denji getting cut to pieces for a couple minutes at absolute most will drain him of his stamina. No I don't mean shallow skin cuts, I mean full on cleaving of limbs, decapitation, disembowelment, vertical severance, etc. If his Regen could get stalled out completely by Reze in less than a minute of blowing his limbs off, I have no doubt cutting him to pieces will wring him dry quicker.
Mickey1940 said:
wait wait I wanna wait for laser to make a rebuttal, retract my vote
Click to expand...
Much appreciated :3 (y)
 
LaserPrecision said:
Landing dozens of hits shouldn't be difficult at all. Lots of those attacks in the video linked on page one looks like she throws over a dozen cuts in like 1 second against enemies which can keep up (Tho it looked like it required less than a dozen to proc it tbh). Even if procing the ice took a little bit of time, Ellen would make up for it for being the superior close quarters combatant than the dude who just flails his arm. Being harder to tag while landing plenty attacks of her own. I think Denji getting cut to pieces for a couple minutes at absolute most will drain him of his stamina. No I don't mean shallow skin cuts, I mean full on cleaving of limbs, decapitation, disembowelment, vertical severance, etc. If his Regen could get stalled out completely by Reze in less than a minute of blowing his limbs off, I have no doubt cutting him to pieces will wring him dry quicker.
Click to expand...
just a heads up that i posted attack gifs to ellen's profile for easy viewing. pretty sure the video i provided earlier on in the discussion didn't have all of her attacks since she got buffed and was given new attacks in the time that video was posted, so the gifs in her profile should be the most up to date version of her attack animations

anyways, since i was informed that i can in fact, cast my own vote on my own thread, i'm personally going to side with ellen for mostly a lot of laser's arguments. denji does outlast ellen in a battle of attrition, but i honestly think ellen can just incap him fast enough to where she doesn't need to fight that prolonged battle. her freeze and shatter effects are brief, but i think they'd give her more than enough time to just chop denji's limbs off and make him burn through his supply of blood faster. again, this version of denji was getting incapped via stuff like getting bisected and having his neck broken, things i really don't see ellen struggling much to recreate. vital view also helps ellen evade and not take heavy amounts of damage from denji's attacks, which makes it harder for him to use her blood to heal himself back up. you could probably argue between who's more skilled, but i think the second ellen realizes denji can heal himself and regenerate, she'd prioritize either just completely dismembering him, bisecting him, or just decapitating him, which again, i don't believe would be super difficult with her massive shears
 
LaserPrecision said:
lol, I forgot that was ur username.
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all good bro lmao, I just thought it was funny
LaserPrecision said:
Tolerance and stamina is fair, though I do think Denji is far less likely to land hits than Ellen. As noted on her profile she can slow down time to evade and land attacks. Both of which slow people comparable to them to a crawl.
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ok originally I was gonna argue that this can only be done a limited amount of time but Vital View is actually extremely spammable in game just by hitting the dodge button so this might be a MASSIVE issue. She can basically pull out a blitz level amp out of her as just by dodging attacks. This alone might change my vote ngl
LaserPrecision said:
Not to mention Denji needing to regenerate in rapid succession quickly drains his stamina compared to usual. When Reze got her hands on him and continued blowing him up, he didn't even last a minute before he was reduced to a charred human chicken strip. .
Click to expand...
He doesn't really need to regenerate in this match, he could just facetank hits
LaserPrecision said:
Her ice also doesn't need to last long to be useful here. It lasts roughly 2.5 seconds which is more than enough time to decapitate and sever all of his limbs.
Click to expand...
pretty sure Freeze instantly breaks once Ellen tries attacking him again
LaserPrecision said:
Their experience gap isn't large, but just from watching the two fight visually, you can tell Ellen is a significantly better fighter (Neither have skill statements, so yes, I will be going by visuals). She's also quite acrobatic and hard to land a hit on especially when paired with the slow-mo stuff when being attacked.
Click to expand...
I think this is more flashy animation than actual martial arts. Yes, Denji's combat style is significantly more primitive but his battle intuition is still there and he still does know how to fight good, especially since he's been fighting for FAR longer than Ellen has (probably, Ellen has basically no backstory so we don't know everything yet). Animations aside, Ellen has no other statement or feats that demonstrate her skill, so it's more of animation vs statements
LaserPrecision said:
Landing dozens of hits shouldn't be difficult at all. Lots of those attacks in the video linked on page one looks like she throws over a dozen cuts in like 1 second against enemies which can keep up (Tho it looked like it required less than a dozen to proc it tbh). Even if procing the ice took a little bit of time, Ellen would make up for it for being the superior close quarters combatant than the dude who just flails his arm.
Click to expand...
Except every enemy in the game has super armor and kinda just takes the hits. Against a character who can actively dodge and block her scissor swings with his chainsaws, it's gonna be a LOT harder for her to just combo the crap out of Denji. And again, she's not better than him at CQC since she doesn't have enough feats or statements
LaserPrecision said:
I think Denji getting cut to pieces for a couple minutes at absolute most will drain him of his stamina. No I don't mean shallow skin cuts, I mean full on cleaving of limbs, decapitation, disembowelment, vertical severance, etc. If his Regen could get stalled out completely by Reze in less than a minute of blowing his limbs off, I have no doubt cutting him to pieces will wring him dry quicker.
Click to expand...
The problem is if Denji touches Ellen a single time he's gonna do the exact same thing: full on cleaving of limbs, decapitation, disembowelment, vertical severance, etc. And unlike Denji, if Ellen is faced with any of those things, Ellen is basically out of the fight.


So right now the main argument is can Ellen kill Denji and prevent his regeneration without getting hit a single time
in my opinion, she could probably accomplish that considering how spammable perfect dodges are. But if Denji lands the first hit, she's basically done for
I see ellen winning 51 times out of 100 if you add Vital View to the equation, but she HARD loses without it
so overall, switching my vote to Ellen
 
Mickey1940 said:
all good bro lmao, I just thought it was funny

ok originally I was gonna argue that this can only be done a limited amount of time but Vital View is actually extremely spammable in game just by hitting the dodge button so this might be a MASSIVE issue. She can basically pull out a blitz level amp out of her as just by dodging attacks. This alone might change my vote ngl

He doesn't really need to regenerate in this match, he could just facetank hits

pretty sure Freeze instantly breaks once Ellen tries attacking him again

I think this is more flashy animation than actual martial arts. Yes, Denji's combat style is significantly more primitive but his battle intuition is still there and he still does know how to fight good, especially since he's been fighting for FAR longer than Ellen has (probably, Ellen has basically no backstory so we don't know everything yet). Animations aside, Ellen has no other statement or feats that demonstrate her skill, so it's more of animation vs statements

Except every enemy in the game has super armor and kinda just takes the hits. Against a character who can actively dodge and block her scissor swings with his chainsaws, it's gonna be a LOT harder for her to just combo the crap out of Denji. And again, she's not better than him at CQC since she doesn't have enough feats or statements

The problem is if Denji touches Ellen a single time he's gonna do the exact same thing: full on cleaving of limbs, decapitation, disembowelment, vertical severance, etc. And unlike Denji, if Ellen is faced with any of those things, Ellen is basically out of the fight.


So right now the main argument is can Ellen kill Denji and prevent his regeneration without getting hit a single time
in my opinion, she could probably accomplish that considering how spammable perfect dodges are. But if Denji lands the first hit, she's basically done for
I see ellen winning 51 times out of 100 if you add Vital View to the equation, but she HARD loses without it
so overall, switching my vote to Ellen
Click to expand...
counted
 
I'll be real, the reason I'm in the side of Denji being insane man with unpredictable shenanigans was mainly because of me watched his fight with Katana Man kekw
 
Kisaragi_Megumi said:
I'll be real, the reason I'm in the side of Denji being insane man with unpredictable shenanigans was mainly because of me watched his fight with Katana Man kekw
Click to expand...
I was waiting for someone to bring that up too cuz the trick he used there wouldn't be helpful here since Denji's took advantage of several unique factors to that encounter not present here. Whatever reason you vote for tho, it's fine. I don't expect everyone to agree
 
LaserPrecision said:
I was waiting for someone to bring that up too cuz the trick he used there wouldn't be helpful here since Denji's took advantage of several unique factors to that encounter not present here. Whatever reason you vote for tho, it's fine. I don't expect everyone to agree
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since you've been arguing fairly consistently for ellen's side, should i count a vote for you on her end?
 
Kisaragi_Megumi said:
I'll be real, the reason I'm in the side of Denji being insane man with unpredictable shenanigans was mainly because of me watched his fight with Katana Man kekw
Click to expand...
Vital View prevents this from happening. Denji was only able to catch Katana Man off guard cuz Katana Man was underestimating him AND Denji already spent the majority of the fight getting absolutely slapped

not to mention, that was Post-Training Denji. We don't know if Pre-Training has this kind of mindet
 
Mickey1940 said:
Vital View prevents this from happening. Denji was only able to catch Katana Man off guard cuz Katana Man was underestimating him AND Denji already spent the majority of the fight getting absolutely slapped

not to mention, that was Post-Training Denji. We don't know if Pre-Training has this kind of mindet
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That and the fact Katana Man had a blood beef with him, and Denji knew Katana man would spam his charging move where he recklessly charges past the enemy.
 
I had my doubts, but I think there's a pretty substantial case for Ellen being a woman, Vital View, and other wincons at least giving Ellen the edge.
 
Oh shoot
Now vital view grant the agents 34x perception and speed amp, this make the odds favored Ellen way more now
It's less than 3 second tho but still..
 
Kisaragi_Megumi said:
Oh shoot
Now vital view grant the agents 34x perception and speed amp, this make the odds favored Ellen way more now
It's less than 3 second tho but still..
Click to expand...
yeah the vital view stuff getting approved makes me side even more for ellen here, so my vote will remain unchanged
 
Kisaragi_Megumi said:
Oh shoot
Now vital view grant the agents 34x perception and speed amp, this make the odds favored Ellen way more now
It's less than 3 second tho but still..
Click to expand...
true but it's extremely spammable and she can chain dodges to effectively make it last WAY longer
 
Mickey1940 said:
i mean if Denji catches up to her the fight is over, he can cleave off arms/legs with a single hit
Click to expand...
The whole fight will be close quarters. It's just unlikely for Denji to land any decisive attacks when his opponent is more gifted acrobatically, in h2h, and with a 34x speed amp for dodging attacks (and then launching counter-attacks). Not to mention during the time she can launch counter-attacks she'll be able to chop Denji into little pieces every time and make him lose a ton of blood. Which drains a huge supply of his stamina.
 
Spammable 34x perception/reaction speed amp is a doozy, more often than not denji is getting comboed to death.
Switching to Ellen FRA
 
I haven't been able to keep up, but I've seen the reactions buff. You should switch this matchup to Post-Weakening Denji to make this more leveled. I'll read through prior arguments once I'm free.
 
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