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Devil May Cry Discussion Thread 10

Probably some random girl

I think Vergil's voice actor spoke of what he thinks Nero's mom was like, I haven't watch the video though
 
Vergil is a CHAD with maximum CONCENTRATION and MOTIVATION. Dante is a VIRGIN with zero CONCENTRATION and MOTIVATION.
Smug Vergil
 
Well, that's another revision thread closed with 500+ posts and no conclusion accepted by staff. The arguments provided against the revisions were...weak to say the least.

Another 500+ thread coming soon to a Devil May Cry near you.
 
I personally thought I gave a calm opinion on the upgrade but like I said in the Thread I was nutrual on whether or not it's accepted I just personally found the argument againts it rather limited and wanted to give my opinion.
 
When the thread is released, could the link be posted here? I'll undoubtedly be involved with it in some way, but it can be difficult to find follow-up threads when the thread is closed.
 
Maxnumb231 said:
Can someone explain to me why Kamiya stating/ clarifying Mundus made a universe is a troll comment?
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I'll go as in depth as possible, and get you both sides of the argument, just give me a moment to write it.
 
This is just beating a dead horse at this point, Mat is too stubborn to accept he is wrong or let the feats be accepted, his word shouldnt remain final in regards to the verse, its ridiculous how a person is put as the one that decides its tier, especially someone that lies about them and ignores things(like claiming Argosax>Mundus when its established at this point they are equal)
 
Okay, so, this is the situation. A person on Twitter a while back asked Kamiya if Mundus creating stars and constellations was accurate, to which he replied "Universe". He clarified this post ad nauseum later, directing other people curious about the question to his previous answer. This was taken to mean that Mundus created a universe, and what led to DMC getting a 3-A tiering before it was later downgraded. So, what are the arguments for and against this being a troll post?


Let's start with the major arguments for:

1: Kamiya is known on Twitter to be quite a prolific troll, very frequently giving troll answers to questions about DMC power scaling.

2: He's made it clear on previous occasions that he does not like people who care too much about his character's strength, so him being honest this time would be strange.

3: The answer was very short; and simply stating "Universe" was considered to be too vague to be considered a WoG feat.


Now, lets go into the major arguments against. Note that I, as a supporter of Kamiya having been honest, might seem somewhat biased in this regard and as someone who's talked about these rebuttals many times I have a lot of details to talk about. I'll simplify it as much as possible.

1: Kamiya is known for being extremely informal in the way he talks, and he also hates typing in English. It's gotten to the point that he's banned people who chat in English from contacting him over Twitter. Given how little English he speaks, he likely used a free translator to talk over Twitter, and free translators are infamous for having trouble translating between English and Japanese. With both of these in mind, the fact that he gave a strange sounding response is not at all dubious, but honestly to be expected.

2: He clarified his response later, directing other people to the answer he gave, which he had never previously done. That brings up the question; why do that if it was just a joke response?

3: The statement is short, but not really as vague as it is often depicted. While he may have worded it strangely, which is addressed by a previous argument, the context of the quote makes it extremely obvious what he intended to say; that Mundus created a universe. It really cannot be depicted in any other way.

4: The way the tweet was handled was very out of character for Kamiya. His troll posts have always been very direct; trying to confuse his opposition and give them blatantly misleading information. With this in mind, it's extremely unlikely he would have changed his trolling patterns now.

5: Kamiya has made it clear before that he does not like people who make Versus Battles, and that's accepted as being the reason why he trolls people who ask those questions. However, the question he was asked was not nearly as explictly a power-scaling question as other questions he's been asked, especially since outside of the VBW feats of creation are very rarely considered AP feats. It's quite likely he simply saw it as a typical question, not one to troll over.

As I mentioned before, I am in full support of Kamiya's WoG feat. He may have been a troll, but he's also a game developer. His statements should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, and looking at the evidence myself there really isn't enough to say that he was being a troll. However, I still certainly understand why the topic is so debatable, and in the end this is just my POV.
 
BlackDarkness679 said:
This is just beating a dead horse at this point, Mat is too stubborn to accept he is wrong or let the feats be accepted, his word shouldnt remain final in regards to the verse, its ridiculous how a person is put as the one that decides its tier, especially someone that lies about them and ignores things(like claiming Argosax>Mundus when its established at this point they are equal)
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Look... I love Matthew, and I hate throwing criticism at anyone on this wiki. But honestly, I'm inclined to agree. Seeing how he handles arguments, it's quite blatantly a case of "deciding your opinion, the looking at the evidence". I can understand why, in the context, since Matthew has gone and debunked 3-A DMC threads constantly over the past few years, and he likely saw this thread as just being another one of those. But new arguments have been formulated; and a lot of new evidence. Again, I really do love him, and all the work he's put into the wiki. But I've got to admit, at this point it seems like he's just arguing for the sake of not admitting he was mistaken.
 
Would anyone be opposed to me starting up the next thread on the 3-A discussion? If not, should I include the summaries used in the previous thread or use the summary I wrote?
 
Dante Demon Killah said:
I don't think it's going to be any different if we don't add more arguments and evidences to the OP, honestly
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Well, there are a few arguments in my summary that have only been very lightly touched upon in recent times on the thread which might suffice. Also, while I do understand that the thread has gone through a lot of unnecessary back-and-forth, refusing to make another thread at this point is unarguably the most of the two evils. Rejecting a thread that's quite hotly debated without any definitive consensus just because it has gone on for a while is just ridiculous.
 
The annoying thing is that it can be quite difficult to gain new material if much of the material has already been explored and argued. It's either a waiting game or succesfully arguing for what is already present, which is difficult when the arguments are merely dismissed with no appropriate reasoning offered.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
The annoying thing is that it can be quite difficult to gain new material if much of the material has already been explored and argued. It's either a waiting game or succesfully arguing for what is already present, which is difficult when the arguments are merely dismissed with no appropriate reasoning offered.
Click to expand...
I agree. Still, I think it's worth a shot at another thread, even if Matthew is practically impossible to convince about this topic.
 
Dante Demon Killah said:
Well, go ahead the
Click to expand...
Alright. Should I use the summary in the previous thread, or the one I made a while back?
 
Sparda 20000000 said:
Is there anymore information on the saviour pocket dimensions?
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Well, we know they exist. Not only are they shown in-game, but in Deadly Fortune it is stated that Nero went through "nightmarish recreations of past events" while traversing the Saviour. Perfectly in character at this point, Matthew has denied it's existence, but it's pretty clear that the pocket dimensions exist. The only truly debatable topic is the scale, which I have previously estimated to be approximately 4-A.
 
Even though I remain relatively neutral to the whole thing, 4-A feels too much like an assumption. Beyond the Earth and the Sun, what else is seen? I wouldn't put it past me to miss a starry sky, of course.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
Even though I remain relatively neutral to the whole thing, 4-A feels too much like an assumption. Beyond the Earth and the Sun, what else is seen? I wouldn't put it past me to see a starry sky, of course.
Click to expand...
The estimate was based off of multiple things. First of all, the dimensions all seem to be separate. This is evidenced by the constantly changing time of day between all the dimensions; if they were all the same dimension, that would mean the Saviour was intentionally changing the time of day himself willingly while focused on fighting Dante outside, which is just a strange assumption. On top of that, all the dimensions appear to have:

1: The earth, or at least a celestial body of similar size to the earth (judging by the horizon line)

2: A sun

3: All the space in between, accounting for the fact that the two would have to be very far apart.

This would put each dimension as being about SS in size (or, to be more specifc, very slightly below SS in size). Given that there are several dimensions of this size, this would put this feat as being Multi Solar System, or 4-A. Again though, the topic is debatable. It's still clearly more than a 4-B feat, but 4-A might seem like an overestimation. If there was a "Multi Sun" tier or something of the like, then that would probably be a better estimation, but there is not.
 
My personal interpretation is that as strange as it is to assume that he decided to change the dimension to suit Nero, it is very strange to assume he created all these dimensions that suit the specific event from Nero's memories that they are based on. The idea of thinking creating each one individually would somehow be easier, or require less of his thought or attention, than changing a single one is just... strange to me.

From the start it has no reasons to create them, and between Nero being absorbed and moving around the Savior there's just not much time. So why spend that effort and time making all these separate dimensions? In which case just having a singular one that changes in accordance with the next memory feels better to me.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
My personal interpretation is that as strange as it is to assume that he decided to change the dimension to suit Nero, it is very strange to assume he created all these dimensions that suit the specific event from Nero's memories that they are based on. The idea of thinking creating each one individually would somehow be easier, or require less of his thought or attention, than changing a single one is just... strange to me.
From the start it has no reasons to create them, and between Nero being absorbed and moving around the Savior there's just not much time. So why spend that effort and time making all these separate dimensions? In which case just having a singular one that changes in accordance with the next memory feels better to me.
Click to expand...
While you do actually bring up some good points that I haven't properly considered myself, admittedly I'm not so sure I agree. After all, the dimensions do appear to just be replicas of at least our solar system; not necessarily created specifically for Nero. The demon's he fights within clearly were created for Nero, but that's far smaller scale than creating whole dimensions. Given that the staircase-esque room you travel through in Mission 19 appears to have already been fully formed before Nero got there (or at least, whe he got there) I would imagine that he had created all of it beforehand.
 
In the first place we are already in a bigger than life insides of a demon powered statue, I am not sure how much the laws of common sense would follow while Nero "moves" from dimension to dimension, especially because in the first place, there's no reason to keep the dimension around after he leaves. And in a way, making it for the benefit of Nero so he has a "way" to move to the next stage makes sense in my mind. But I do understand it'd be hard to entirely agree with what I say.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
In the first place we are already in a bigger than life insides of a demon powered statue, I am not sure how much the laws of common sense would follow while Nero "moves" from dimension to dimension, especially because in the first place, there's no reason to keep the dimension around after he leaves. And in a way, making it for the benefit of Nero so he has a "way" to move to the next stage makes sense in my mind. But I do understand it'd be hard to entirely agree with what I say.
Click to expand...
Don't worry, I entirely understand what you mean. And I'm not saying it is definitively a 4-A feat; in fact, I've specifically mentioned before that at best this would be a "Likely 4-A" feat. So I understand where you are coming from, I just think the information and evidence we have still points more to one side than the other.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
Sanctus must be more bored than he would ever dare admit to craft this all up for Nero.
Click to expand...
Well, it wasn't necessarily Sanctus. It was the Saviour. Sanctus obviously has some level of control over the Saviour, but considering how Sanctus fought Nero and the Saviour fought Dante both at the same time, unless he's the best multi-tasker in the world it's far more likely that the Saviour can act on it's own if need be.
 
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