Don’t Rest Your Head Revision Part 1

[Tago238]

Universal Revisions:

1)All Nightmares should be at a baseline of 10-A and have above average human stats as they can use up to 6 madness dice on any activity and regular humans only have 1-2 (discipline dice). This should also mean that they should lose their madness dice weakness.

2)All Nightmares should have enhanced senses added to their profile as they are the only ones who can notice gateways to Mad City.

3)All Nightmares should have the following resistances added:

i)Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation via resisting Quiet.

ii)Memory Manipulation via resisting the memory altering effects of Mad City and the Xenophile’s aliens’ (who do fight for him) memory blanking technology.

iii)Power Mimicry via resisting the nightmare amped version of Hands.

iv)Adhesive Manipulation via resisting the grip of Ribcage.

v)Damage Transferal and Fate Manipulation via resisting the effects of Teddy.

vi)Paralysis Inducement via resisting Silent Knight and The Alienist’s forces.

vii)Corruption via resisting The Ladies’ blood.

iix)Plot Manipulation via resisting The Paper Boys’ articles.

ix)Planetary Mind Manipulation (this is more an extra feat than an addition really), by resisting Stigmata’s forgiveness.

4)All Nightmares should have the following resistances removed:

i)Body Puppetry as Teddy has been established to be Damage Transferal. However it’s possible that characters may be able to resist The Wax King’s wax covering, which works by covering the target in wax to control them, because he is a nightmare who can be fought.

ii) Absorption as Ants just causes the opponent to get eaten by ants and Cradle Robber’s timeline absorption isn’t really an evolution of his madness talent (which has dice values that can be resisted); it could be seen as esoteric case like Breath becoming Blow Hard. It’s more an adaption of becoming a weird time wreath, basically.

iii) Physics Manipulation and Density Manipulation as Weight is strictly Gravity Manipulation.

5)All Nightmares should get “possibly/likely Non Physical Interaction” as Officer Tock and the Tacks Man are notably good at fighting nightmares and one nightmare in Mad City was a “sentient orifice”.


Gonna do revisions for specific characters tomorrow since I’m tired.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Sounds good to me.

 

[DMUA]

Physics Manipulation and Density Manipulation as Weight is strictly Gravity Manipulation.

This explicitly states they don't know if they're messing with mass or gravity but the result is the same anyways. And if it was just gravity, why would they describe messing with bullet trajectory as "distortion" instead of just making them slam into the ground well before they should? You also can't really make something "implode" via just pure gravity. Collapsing could be considered similar enough that it doesn't really matter, but, eh

 

[Tago238]

This explicitly states they don't know if they're messing with mass or gravity but the result is the same anyways. And if it was just gravity, why would they describe messing with bullet trajectory as "distortion" instead of just making them slam into the ground well before they should? You also can't really make something "implode" via just pure gravity. Collapsing could be considered similar enough that it doesn't really matter, but, eh

1)We can make a reasonable guess.

2)I mean, I legit don’t know why you think this favours the other possibilities more, the same effect would occur either way and it would still very much depend on the power of the ability as to whether it would just slam into the ground immediately.

3)I mean no, when imploding a human gravity manipulation is much more relevant and can indeed be singularly relevant. I don’t see how density manipulation would really cut it tbh.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Plot Manip should be Subjective Reality since it has to be read by people to become true (implying people need to believe it to function, it certainly isn't a"plot" by any means).

I agree with DMUA's assessment, for the record.

Enhanced Senses should be cycled out for Extrasensory Perception since it is more about witnessing something that literally isn't there to others rather than, say, increasing the efficiency of their perception.

Neutral on the Non-Physical Interaction, leaning against. The quotes are vague and you can absolutely affect an orifice without hitting the space inside it.

 

[Tago238]

It objectively is plot manipulation since the power brings stories into reality, it just needs the power of belief/ circulation to activate.

Okay.

Fair.

An orifice isn’t the space and what surrounds it, it’s just space itself. The scan is somewhat vague however, which was why I only wanted to put it down as a possibly/likely.

 

[DMUA]

The point is that if it was concretely just gravity manipulation, it would say as such instead of beating around the bush with it's wording.

Actually, it's extrasensory if you use another sense to detect something spiritual or otherwise not normal. If you use sight or something like that, it's enhanced senses.

Yeah, it says the story becomes true, not specific fictional elements of it that would be Subjective Reality.

Orifice is just supposed to be a hole, but a hole inofitself is just sorta empty space so eh

 

[Mr. Bambu]

An orifice is defined by its borders. The borders are physical. I don't approve of the ability.

I don't really consider the Plot Manip legit but if I'm severely outvoted there ain't tons I can do. That ain't plot manip, though.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I disagree on plot manip

 

[Tago238]

The point is that if it was concretely just gravity manipulation, it would say as such instead of beating around the bush with it's wording.

Actually, it's extrasensory if you use another sense to detect something spiritual or otherwise not normal. If you use sight or something like that, it's enhanced senses.

Yeah, it says the story becomes true, not specific fictional elements of it that would be Subjective Reality.

Orifice is just supposed to be a hole, but a hole inofitself is just sorta empty space so eh

I think the implosion thing implies gravity manipulation and the reason it beat around the bush before was because 5-6 madness die talents aren’t used much. But whatever, this isn’t something I imagine I can convince people on.

Yeah fair, the page for enhanced senses include vision for abstract stuff anyway.

The definition of plot manipulation is “Plot Manipulation is the ability to control the plot itself. Examples include altering the plot, creating/destroying stories, changing speech bubbles, changing the setting, etc.”. The paper boys manifest a full narrative into reality, regardless of if it is done by subjective reality or is powered by belief it still actualises a sequence of events into reality that can be described as a plot, narrative or story. This is simple.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

They are not living in the stories though. These narratives are not running reality itself, they just get people to believe something and then it becomes true. That is Subjective Reality via a mechanic that is deceptively similar to Plot Manipulation.

This is simple.

 

[Tago238]

Implementing a story into reality is plot manipulation. It doesn’t have to be an existing structure, you just have to make it one.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Tago, the ability refers to the plot of the verse. The paper boys literally aren't affecting that. They're lying and getting people to believe it. Which causes it to take effect. Which means Subjective Reality.

That's literally all there is to it. I ain't budging on this'n.

 

[Tago238]

“Tago, the ability refers to the plot of the verse.”
Then what do you think the part of the page which says an example of the power is “creating stories” means?

“The paper boys literally aren't affecting that. They're lying and getting people to believe it. Which causes it to take effect. Which means Subjective Reality.”

I’ve already responded to this and you haven’t provided a counter argument, this is ad nauseam.

“That's literally all there is to it. I ain't budging on this'n.”
Mmmmm. I’ll ask some other staff about this on discord.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Creating the story of a verse.

Your response essentially admits I am right, but says "but it is dressed up as being written, so I'll say it is Plot Manipulation anyways". Forgive me for not finding that a sufficient reason to massively overestimate the ability.

Feel free.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Same opinion as Bambu on the things in the OP.

 

[Tago238]

Took a while to respond cause my phone ran out of charge and I wasn’t home.

“Creating the story of a verse.”

And would this be formulating the series of events that the verse undergoes?

“Your response essentially admits I am right, but says "but it is dressed up as being written, so I'll say it is Plot Manipulation anyways". Forgive me for not finding that a sufficient reason to massively overestimate the ability.”

My response essentially says that one power can lead onto another and subjective reality does not sufficiently describe what is going on when what actually is going on subscribes to the definition of plot manipulation. Well, you’re being an ass but at least this wasn’t ad nauseam necessarily.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

"the main events of a play, novel, movie, or similar work, devised and presented by the writer as an interrelated sequence."

The paper boys spreading lies is not this, Tago. They are not defining reality around them, they are doing exactly what the Subjective Reality page describes.

"you're being an ass"

"iT'S sImpLe!11!!"

A wise man once said don't take criticism from someone you wouldn't take advice from. I shall use that logic here. Tago, formally, I am rejecting this as Plot Manipulation. It is Subjective Reality. I'm going to stop posting since you seem to be complaining about me disagreeing with you with the whole "ad nauseam" shtick.

 

[Tago238]

Ugh.

No, saying that you were engaging in ad nauseam is just saying what happened. You repeated your point as if I hadn’t heard it before without engaging in where the argument was going:

“The paper boys literally aren't affecting that. They're lying and getting people to believe it. Which causes it to take effect. Which means Subjective Reality.”


“I don't really consider the Plot Manip legit but if I'm severely outvoted there ain't tons I can do. That ain't plot manip, though.”


So anyway, it seems like the fundamental difference in opinion (one which I can back up with quotes) here is that you believe plot manipulation has to be scaled to the entire verse and how it functions whereas I think implementing plot elements into a local area suffices. I think it suffices because I don’t think making an ability only be something that can be achieved via it scaling to the entire verse fits with the wiki’s philosophy on indexing, it’s like making a tier S for characters who are only stated to be the “supreme being” of a verse. Things shouldn’t be treated as superior or different to other things if they scale to the same structures but a meaningless other difference is at play.

You can contest its inherent meaninglessness by saying “well scaling to the entire setting means it is manipulating the actual plot of the setting” but that’s obviously dumb because the character manipulating the plot and their actions manipulating it are still within the actual plot of a story regardless.

"the main events of a play, novel, movie, or similar work, devised and presented by the writer as an interrelated sequence."

The narrative a newspaper expresses falls under a “similar work” in this regard, they are implementing a “plot” into reality by use of subjective reality.

 

[Tago238]

Despite an actual discourse not going on for very long at all Bambu has opted to not continue this discussion on VBW or through other mediums. As such I do not think it is unfair to discount his vote on this thread unless his exact viewpoint is argued for by somebody else; as it does not appear that his contribution to this thread was substantial.

This is my view on the matter at least.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I am fine with Plot Manipulation, myself, looking through it. Subjective Reality is its mechanism, yes, but a power with a given effect can have whatever inner workings behind it and still be listed based solely on the effect. Just look at verses where Magic is essentially just Reality Warping, like The Elder Scrolls, for instance.

Agree with the people up there, on the other things. Non-Physical Interaction is also something I disagree with; given how the scan in question talks about how those orifices are embedded in walls and whatnot, it seems more likely that the being is both the hole and the borders around it, like Bambu said.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I am aware of verses where powers such as Subjective Reality are the backdrop for a plethora of other abilities. Lest you forget, I am the D&D voodoo man above all else- a verse where the very same thing occurs with Clerics and their divine magic. However in this instance the only claim that can be laid to Plot Manipulation for this particular ability is the fact that the Subjective Reality is performed through writing. It is not a plot. It is a newspaper written to deceive. When people are deceived, it becomes true- which is not reminiscent of the definition of "plot", to me.

 

[Tago238]

Okay, so can we be clear on one thing here? Do you accept that the paper boys’ articles control the future, since they cause a series of events to occur?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Okay, so can we be clear on one thing here? Do you accept that the paper boys’ articles control the future, since they cause a series of events to occur?

No.

 

[Tago238]

Why? I’ve given the reason for why that’s implied at least to me.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

To be honest, the pages do need a serious revision. I disagree (partially) with some stuff here, agree with others, but the thing that needs to be understood here is that it is extremely hard to make any objective statements about DRYH. The whole point of the RPG is that it is an incredibly narrative, story-driven plot that different GMs can interpret in any way they want. There is very little on scaling in the RAW (Rules As Written), and the verse in general makes that kind of thing fall apart rather easily.

I can give innumerable examples on how any attempt to make scaling would break apart by conventional rules, but in any case...

One thing I disagree with here in that it is playing it too safe is rating Nightmares at 10-A. Average humans are 1 Dice-power. Very well-trained ones are 2-Dice. Extraordinary people of unprecedented prowess is 3-Dice.

If anything, almost all Nightmares are 9-C at the barest minimum, and even some 1-Dice Nightmares can be 9-C through other feats and being rated like that because they are extremely dumb or have a glaring weakness, but I could make a better argument for that.

After I finish up some stuff, I'll make my case here.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Why? I’ve given the reason for why that’s implied at least to me.

Haven't I made it clear enough? It is my belief that they are simply using their abilities to spread a lie, make others believe it, thus making it true (Subjective Reality). Why, then, would this imply the ability to manipulate the future? Their abilities are not reaching forward in causality to make this happen. It follows the flow of time.

You haven't given me reason to assume it is time manip. So I'm not automatically assuming it is time manip.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

To be honest, the pages do need a serious revision. I disagree (partially) with some stuff here, agree with others, but the thing that needs to be understood here is that it is extremely hard to make any objective statements about DRYH. The whole point of the RPG is that it is an incredibly narrative, story-driven plot that different GMs can interpret in any way they want. There is very little on scaling in the RAW (Rules As Written), and the verse in general makes that kind of thing fall apart rather easily.

I can give innumerable examples on how any attempt to make scaling would break apart by conventional rules, but in any case...

One thing I disagree with here in that it is playing it too safe is rating Nightmares at 10-A. Average humans are 1 Dice-power. Very well-trained ones are 2-Dice. Extraordinary people of unprecedented prowess is 3-Dice.

If anything, almost all Nightmares are 9-C at the barest minimum, and even some 1-Dice Nightmares can be 9-C through other feats and being rated like that because they are extremely dumb or have a glaring weakness, but I could make a better argument for that.

After I finish up some stuff, I'll make my case here.

This is extremely fair, but it isn't the oddest thing we've tried to cram into the VSBW system to make it fit. I think it can work.

 

[Tago238]

To be honest, the pages do need a serious revision. I disagree (partially) with some stuff here, agree with others, but the thing that needs to be understood here is that it is extremely hard to make any objective statements about DRYH. The whole point of the RPG is that it is an incredibly narrative, story-driven plot that different GMs can interpret in any way they want. There is very little on scaling in the RAW (Rules As Written), and the verse in general makes that kind of thing fall apart rather easily.

I can give innumerable examples on how any attempt to make scaling would break apart by conventional rules, but in any case...

One thing I disagree with here in that it is playing it too safe is rating Nightmares at 10-A. Average humans are 1 Dice-power. Very well-trained ones are 2-Dice. Extraordinary people of unprecedented prowess is 3-Dice.

If anything, almost all Nightmares are 9-C at the barest minimum, and even some 1-Dice Nightmares can be 9-C through other feats and being rated like that because they are extremely dumb or have a glaring weakness, but I could make a better argument for that.

After I finish up some stuff, I'll make my case here.

That’s fair I suppose, I wouldn’t be opposed to them being 9-C. I also plan on making a bigger revision for individual characters btw, I just posted this one first because I got bored.

Haven't I made it clear enough? It is my belief that they are simply using their abilities to spread a lie, make others believe it, thus making it true (Subjective Reality). Why, then, would this imply the ability to manipulate the future? Their abilities are not reaching forward in causality to make this happen. It follows the flow of time.

You haven't given me reason to assume it is time manip. So I'm not automatically assuming it is time manip.

They are causing a story, which is by necessity a series of events to occur. Or would you argue that a “story” published in a newspaper is basically just a single event or piece of information?