Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

[LuffyRuffy46307]

exactly, but well it seems that this is basically difficult to understand for some.

Yes, Hit uses several time-based abilities.

 

[RedReaper]

I think we should do a crt on Hit's abilities again

The problem is that Hit’s powers just straight up aren’t consistent. For example, when Hit uses his Dimension Shift to avoid an attack from Dyspo, Dyspo verbatim calls it Time Skip and Hit says “Yes. But can you tell what I’ll do next time? Will it be real, or fake?”

Meaning the Tides of Time is also Time Skip. And when Hit freezes Goku in time, he calls it Time Skip. Meaning it’s also Time Skip. They’re all rooted in the same thing, but are utilized differently.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

The problem is that Hit’s powers just straight up aren’t consistent. For example, when Hit uses his Dimension Shift to avoid an attack from Dyspo, Dyspo verbatim calls it Time Skip and Hit says “Yes. But can you tell what I’ll do next time? Will it be real, or fake?”

Hit creates a dimension where it is invulnerable to attacks and can launch intangible attacks, the profile i sent you mentions this, his skills are all based on time.

 

[RedReaper]

Hit creates a dimension where it is invulnerable to attacks and can launch intangible attacks, the profile i sent you mentions this, his skills are all based on time.

I know, but I’m saying the statements surrounding Time Skip. (Stopping Time Vs Skipping Time Vs Tides of Time), all are called Time Skip, but all are different functions of Time Skip. Due to this, Hit’s powers are seemingly inconsistent, because they all go by the same name. Hence why, in thread, I called out how Time Skip is an umbrella term for what Hit does. Whether that be accumulating Skipped Time (ala Vados in Epi 72), shifting between his Temporal Dimension (Hit himself in Epi 104), or freezing time (Hit himself when he very clearly freezes Goku in Time in I believe Epi 40), it’s still all called Time Skip.

 

[omegabronic]

1) Unless you’re trying to say no other Time Related ability is part of Time Skip, Hit’s ability to improve Time Skip resulted in other applications. Such as Time Cage, or the Tides of Time. So it’s not at all weird or confusing. You’re just asserting it is.

Yeah, Hit got better at doing his Time Manipulation and learned how to manip time for other effects..........dunno why you think that abilities with different names and effects are all just the Time Skip tho, again, can you show me proof of these statements?

2) I never argued it was always part of Time Skip.

that was me listing the possibilities, not asserting what you have said, if you are saying he just developed that new aplication of his Time Skip.....then go back to all the problems of that possibility that i listed, it still wouldn't make sense

No, they explicitly didn’t. As stated by Hit and Piccolo, his power did not increase at all. He gives a whole speech on this. He is ONLY improving Time Skip. And improving his technique results in what we see.

no, we do know he gets stronger and the current profile states that he does get stronger under his AD description, and btw the "advance" of his Time Skip is always said to be in relation to him making its duration longer, never about him gaining new abilities with it, but i listed these and all the other problems with him making up a new ability for it in my earlier comment, so i will not explain it again

No, I mean targeting wise. Instead of applying Time Skip in such a way where only he is capable of movement, making him appear faster, he did the reverse—Selectively targeting his opponent, and making them slower, thus to the opponent everyone looks faster than they are.

again, statement of this being him applying the Time Skip in reverse? also if you want to say that the Time Skip could aways stop time, know that the scene where he used his TIme Stop power on the mob has him choosing who gets affected and who doesn't, so it would be weird for him to need this specific application of Time Skip when he could already do that much easier earlier on, unless of course, it is the Time Skip(as Vados says) and instead it is him simply having multiple time hax abilities where they have ranks of effectiveness for them, which is more likely

The statement doesn’t. When I pointed out he explicitly stopped time, you just said Vados clearly wasn’t talking about that power, and claimed it was a totally different, unrelated ability.

yeah, against the Mob it was clearly a different ability else Vados' statement makes no sense

Despite the fact that this would make no sense narratively.

why wouldn't it? what statement does the Mob scene have to say that it is the Time Skip being used there?

Secondly, I’m claiming Time Stop is a sub application of Time Skip. (Hence why it’s always referred to under that name.)

it isn't, it litterally isn't called "Time Skip" in the Mob scene, and Vados very much implies that it isn't given her statement, also statement for it having "sub applications" that can completely change what it originally does?

Also, Goku’s solution to Time Skip still totally works, I don’t get your point there.

it doesn't since he clearly moved multiple times when Hit used it against him, also if Hit Stops time with his Time Skip, then predicting where Hit would be would be useless since he would be frozen by Hit's perspective and thus unable to react to his attacks Mid Time Skip, since he would be frozen in time unable to move to counter him

He literally stops time. We see him do it. He says it. Your counter to this is that they’re two separate, unrelated powers, but this was never established and makes no sense.

it HAS been established, it has been explicitly stated that him skipping time and him stopping it are different things, furthermore the moments where Goku seemed "frozen" in the U6 arc i already explained in my original response to you in the earlier thread, he could very well be moving and reacting like he did in the earlier example where he also didn't moved to counter as Hit attacked him, but he was still moving, my explanation to cover this was that Hit simply grew to be too fast for Goku to react, as we factually know that his power grows as he highers his Time Skip, i am not the only one who told you that during the thread btw, so idk why are you so adamant on this being an impossibility compared to your explanation, despite said explanation completely contradicting what is said in the series, also we do know that he must have grow his speed as he advanced, since he initially fought on par with SSJB Goku, only for him to overwelm him after he advanced his time skip, and then fight on par SSJB Goku + Kaioken 10x, so we know for a fact that he has to have gotten faster and stronger

Furthermore, why would anyone comment on it? To everyone else, he’s always been Stopping Time. This is what Jaco, the Galactic King, the Pride Trooper, etc. all view the technique as. Only Vados claims differently

you are arguing that it wasn't always Time Stop and that he just developed it as he advanced his Time Skip.....why wouldn't HIT HIMSELF(i also put him in the reaction argument.....dunno why you ignored him) not note when his technique suddenly does something completely different from what it was doing up until that point? and Goku himself who was dealing with the technique(including moving in the middle of it), why would he not comment when it suddenly doesn't do that and instead just makes him completely unable to move unlike before?

and even then this is in direct contradiction to the prior episode, where he quite literally claims to stop time. And even if we took her word above others, given he literally also stops time, it just means he can do both.

you mean the Mob scene where it is never EVER said that he is using the time skip? is that really your argument? and no, her statement CANNOT work if his Time Skip can stop time, as it would make here statement simply wrong, but as i pointed out, it most likely isn't, as we don't have any statement or consistent showings of his Time Skip stopping time, and the supposed moments where he does are either

A: Full of nonsensical and contradictory situatuations regarding the supposed Time Stop
or
B: Never said to be him using his Time Skip at all at any point and you are only assuming that it is the Time Skip.....despite it being said otherwise

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I know, but I’m saying the statements surrounding Time Skip. (Stopping Time Vs Skipping Time Vs Tides of Time), all are called Time Skip, but all are different functions of Time Skip. Due to this, Hit’s powers are seemingly inconsistent, because they all go by the same name. Hence why, in thread, I called out how Time Skip is an umbrella term for what Hit does. Whether that be accumulating Skipped Time (ala Vados in Epi 72), shifting between his Temporal Dimension (Hit himself in Epi 104), or freezing time (Hit himself when he very clearly freezes Goku in Time in I believe Epi 40), it’s still all called Time Skip.

I think we should create a page explaining Hit's abilities, because this could cause not very good situations in the future and make a crt to return to Goku's resistance.

 

[omegabronic]

The problem is that Hit’s powers just straight up aren’t consistent. For example, when Hit uses his Dimension Shift to avoid an attack from Dyspo, Dyspo verbatim calls it Time Skip and Hit says “Yes. But can you tell what I’ll do next time? Will it be real, or fake?”

i saw the fight......yeah i agree with this one, the Dimensional shift ability is certainly part of the Time Skip, but then again, Vados says that that one is directly connected to it as to how the Alternate dimension is even made in the first place, so i don't think it is contradictory.....or at least i wouldn't if it wasn't for the elaboration i did bellow

And when Hit freezes Goku in time, he calls it Time Skip. Meaning it’s also Time Skip.

that one i gave reasoning to why it doesn't need to be him being frozen in time

They’re all rooted in the same thing, but are utilized differently.

if they are all Time Skip at the same time.......then Hit's second match with Goku where it is constatly said that he isn't using him Time Skip against him is hard contradicted


btw it is hard to argue when i can't answer to Luffy's replies, so it would make me answers incomplete

 

[Killerdrone123]

My theory is that hit just drives and develops new techniques from time skip like after he saw that goku failed his time skip he just derived another ability of dimension shifting so that it could work against goku

 

[omegabronic]

My theory is that hit just drives and develops new techniques from time skip like after he saw that goku failed his time skip he just derived another ability of dimension shifting so that it could work against goku

I mean.......that much should completely obvious

 

[RedReaper]

Yeah, Hit got better at doing his Time Manipulation and learned how to manip time for other effects..........dunno why you think that abilities with different names and effects are all just the Time Skip tho, again, can you show me proof of these statements?

1) Listen to this for a moment. You admit that it is possible for Hit to train and improve Time Skip to get other affects...but then claim that it's not possible for him to do so in battle, despite the fact Hit literally claims his development was started by Goku because it never occurred to him he could improve it. He even calls it "the old fashioned way." Or training. As in, him fighting Goku was him training his powers. Either Hit CAN develop new powers, or he can't. There's no in between.

2) "Different Names." None of these powers are named. Tides of Time is explicitly from FighterZ. In fact, if we were to truly use Naming as evidence (and all Time Skip attack names come from side material), it's automatically a point against you, because they're ALL named Time Skip in XV2.

that was me listing the possibilities, not asserting what you have said, if you are saying he just developed that new aplication of his Time Skip.....then go back to all the problems of that possibility that i listed, it still wouldn't make sense

Read above. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

no, we do know he gets stronger and the current profile states that he does get stronger under his AD description, and btw the "advance" of his Time Skip is always said to be in relation to him making its duration longer, never about him gaining new abilities with it, but i listed these and all the other problems with him making up a new ability for it in my earlier comment, so i will not explain it again

1) What is written on the profile legitimately doesn't matter. Like science, we test, re-examine, and modify as needed when our understanding of a topic has changed. That's what threads are for.

2) No, you didn't. You just made an argument of incredulity.

3) That scan set literally talks about only his Time Skip outside of the last scan, which is also referring to Time Skip. Not physical power. We know this is objectively not about power, because when he improves Time Skip, Vados and Whis comment that there was no power increase. When Hit decribes it, he says he can't improve power. It's raw technique. Only Technique. Which Piccolo then reaffirms. There is absolutely no power increase. Its just Time Skip being improved.

again, statement of this being him applying the Time Skip in reverse? also if you want to say that the Time Skip could aways stop time, know that the scene where he used his TIme Stop power on the mob has him choosing who gets affected and who doesn't, so it would be weird for him to need this specific application of Time Skip when he could already do that much easier earlier on, unless of course, it is the Time Skip(as Vados says) and instead it is him simply having multiple time hax abilities where they have ranks of effectiveness for them, which is more likely

Vados literally says he is using the Time Skip Storage (as in, what is called Time Skip), to trap (as in, selectively targetting them), thus using the ability in reverse. Again, I'm explicitly referencing the targetting. Not some time reversal.

yeah, against the Mob it was clearly a different ability else Vados' statement makes no sense

Okay, if you are so confident, can you prove this is a separate, magical power Hit got from no where, totally unrelated to the ONLY KNOWN TIME POWERS HE HAS? What is it's name? How does it work? Or, is it MORE LIKELY, that it simply a different application of a power we KNOW he has? Especially since his Time Stop claim happens BEFORE Vados explains Time Skip.

why wouldn't it? what statement does the Mob scene have to say that it is the Time Skip being used there?

Again, what other Time Power does Hit have? Hell, when he uses the Dimension Shift and brings people inside it, like against Dyspo, it's called Time Skip. As is the Phantasms.

it isn't, it litterally isn't called "Time Skip" in the Mob scene, and Vados very much implies that it isn't given her statement, also statement for it having "sub applications" that can completely change what it originally does?

Statement that Hit has a new magical power? Also, if you want to be technical then all this proves is Vados is just objectively wrong and thus isn't a reliable source. Especally when Hit, the guy who HAS THE POWER, contradicts her.

it doesn't since he clearly moved multiple times when Hit used it against him, also if Hit Stops time with his Time Skip, then predicting where Hit would be would be useless since he would be frozen by Hit's perspective and thus unable to react to his attacks Mid Time Skip, since he would be frozen in time unable to move to counter him

If I'm saying that Hit gets Time Stop later, towards the end of the fight, (which makes sense, as he literally says he's never attempted to improve Time Skip before), then there's no contradiction. So again, what are you talking about?

it HAS been established, it has been explicitly stated that him skipping time and him stopping it are different things, furthermore the moments where Goku seemed "frozen" in the U6 arc i already explained in my original response to you in the earlier thread, he could very well be moving and reacting like he did in the earlier example where he also didn't moved to counter as Hit attacked him, but he was still moving, my explanation to cover this was that Hit simply grew to be too fast for Goku to react, as we factually know that his power grows as he highers his Time Skip, i am not the only one who told you that during the thread btw, so idk why are you so adamant on this being an impossibility compared to your explanation, despite said explanation completely contradicting what is said in the series, also we do know that he must have grow his speed as he advanced, since he initially fought on par with SSJB Goku, only for him to overwelm him after he advanced his time skip, and then fight on par SSJB Goku + Kaioken 10x, so we know for a fact that he has to have gotten faster and stronger

No, it hasn't. At no point does the story separate these powers. Also, no? Goku is explicitly frozen in Time. You can quite clearly see this. Also, if he wasnt't, then no amount of Time Skip length enhancement would've mattered, because the beam they're fighting in would've decimated him. This also just straight up wouldn't make sense, because if the length of time mattered, Hit disappeared and reappeared inside the beam (as we see where he moved to, right beside Goku, who is within his own KHH Wave), and still would've gotten smacked around. Hell, assuming Goku was still moving, Hit wouldn't be able to move at all and would get bopped by the punch right in front of him, Time Skip or no.

you are arguing that it wasn't always Time Stop and that he just developed it as he advanced his Time Skip.....why wouldn't HIT HIMSELF(i also put him in the reaction argument.....dunno why you ignored him) not note when his technique suddenly does something completely different from what it was doing up until that point? and Goku himself who was dealing with the technique(including moving in the middle of it), why would he not comment when it suddenly doesn't do that and instead just makes him completely unable to move unlike before?

Hit literally comments his Time Skip improves so much that Goku can't keep up anymore, and then unlike before, when he hits Goku, Goku doesn't react mid skip. He only reacts to the LAST TWO blows. (As in, when time resumes.) And even then, it's painted as if all the damage suddenly happened at once.

you mean the Mob scene where it is never EVER said that he is using the time skip? is that really your argument? and no, her statement CANNOT work if his Time Skip can stop time, as it would make here statement simply wrong, but as i pointed out, it most likely isn't, as we don't have any statement or consistent showings of his Time Skip stopping time, and the supposed moments where he does are either

You haven't substantiated why she would be right and everyone else, including Toei, would be wrong. (Especially since this info is Anime-Only, comes from a Filler Episode, and is contradicted by the prior filler episode.)

A: Full of nonsensical and contradictory situatuations regarding the supposed Time Stop
or
B: Never said to be him using his Time Skip at all at any point and you are only assuming that it is the Time Skip.....despite it being said otherwise

Incredibly disingenuous.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

1) Listen to this for a moment. You admit that it is possible for Hit to train and improve Time Skip to get other affects...but then claim that it's not possible for him to do so in battle, despite the fact Hit literally claims his development was started by Goku because it never occurred to him he could improve it. He even calls it "the old fashioned way." Or training. As in, him fighting Goku was him training his powers. Either Hit CAN develop new powers, or he can't. There's no in between.

2) "Different Names." None of these powers are named. Tides of Time is explicitly from FighterZ. In fact, if we were to truly use Naming as evidence (and all Time Skip attack names come from side material), it's automatically a point against you, because they're ALL named Time Skip in XV2.

Read above. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

1) What is written on the profile legitimately doesn't matter. Like science, we test, re-examine, and modify as needed when our understanding of a topic has changed. That's what threads are for.

2) No, you didn't. You just made an argument of incredulity.

3) That scan set literally talks about only his Time Skip outside of the last scan, which is also referring to Time Skip. Not physical power. We know this is objectively not about power, because when he improves Time Skip, Vados and Whis comment that there was no power increase. When Hit decribes it, he says he can't improve power. It's raw technique. Only Technique. Which Piccolo then reaffirms. There is absolutely no power increase. Its just Time Skip being improved.

Vados literally says he is using the Time Skip Storage (as in, what is called Time Skip), to trap (as in, selectively targetting them), thus using the ability in reverse. Again, I'm explicitly referencing the targetting. Not some time reversal.

Okay, if you are so confident, can you prove this is a separate, magical power Hit got from no where, totally unrelated to the ONLY KNOWN TIME POWERS HE HAS? What is it's name? How does it work? Or, is it MORE LIKELY, that it simply a different application of a power we KNOW he has? Especially since his Time Stop claim happens BEFORE Vados explains Time Skip.

Again, what other Time Power does Hit have? Hell, when he uses the Dimension Shift and brings people inside it, like against Dyspo, it's called Time Skip. As is the Phantasms.

Statement that Hit has a new magical power? Also, if you want to be technical then all this proves is Vados is just objectively wrong and thus isn't a reliable source. Especally when Hit, the guy who HAS THE POWER, contradicts her.

If I'm saying that Hit gets Time Stop later, towards the end of the fight, (which makes sense, as he literally says he's never attempted to improve Time Skip before), then there's no contradiction. So again, what are you talking about?

No, it hasn't. At no point does the story separate these powers. Also, no? Goku is explicitly frozen in Time. You can quite clearly see this. Also, if he wasnt't, then no amount of Time Skip length enhancement would've mattered, because the beam they're fighting in would've decimated him. This also just straight up wouldn't make sense, because if the length of time mattered, Hit disappeared and reappeared inside the beam (as we see where he moved to, right beside Goku, who is within his own KHH Wave), and still would've gotten smacked around. Hell, assuming Goku was still moving, Hit wouldn't be able to move at all and would get bopped by the punch right in front of him, Time Skip or no.

Hit literally comments his Time Skip improves so much that Goku can't keep up anymore, and then unlike before, when he hits Goku, Goku doesn't react mid skip. He only reacts to the LAST TWO blows. (As in, when time resumes.) And even then, it's painted as if all the damage suddenly happened at once.

You haven't substantiated why she would be right and everyone else, including Toei, would be wrong. (Especially since this info is Anime-Only, comes from a Filler Episode, and is contradicted by the prior filler episode.)

Incredibly disingenuous.

Beautiful arguments, you won the first time.

 

[Kroneii1]

I like more the idea of Hit just jumping into the future with his time skip than Hit stopping time for 0.1 seconds.
So yeah I think we should treat them as two different abilities.

 

[Jaakor48]

This is the first time I've seen one try to use a statement to disprove a feat

I just rewatched Goku vs hit again, in his final evolution, the area turns red, and when he goes to kill the mob boss, the exact same red background is shown and he's stopping time for them,

Add this to both Toei page and official site stating he stops time as well as further statements of his timeskip stopping time in the ToP and this just gets silly

 

[Killerdrone123]

They could still be same ability and do both functions to

 

[Jaakor48]

They could still be same ability and do both functions to

That's exactly what it is, his timeskip is the canopy of all his time abilities, he skips time and stores it, then create a time Pocket dimension of that stored time which the games called tides of time, and he can continuously use timeskip on a person, which is time cage. The normal skipping of time also has the effect of a time stop after hit evolves it against Goku

 

[omegabronic]

1) Listen to this for a moment. You admit that it is possible for Hit to train and improve Time Skip to get other affects...but then claim that it's not possible for him to do so in battle, despite the fact Hit literally claims his development was started by Goku because it never occurred to him he could improve it. He even calls it "the old fashioned way." Or training. As in, him fighting Goku was him training his powers. Either Hit CAN develop new powers, or he can't. There's no in between.

What? NO, i didn't said that, i said that he can develop new powers.....i never claimed that he developed new haxes by altering his Time Skip, i don't even know how you got that from what i said

2) "Different Names." None of these powers are named. Tides of Time is explicitly from FighterZ. In fact, if we were to truly use Naming as evidence (and all Time Skip attack names come from side material), it's automatically a point against you, because they're ALL named Time Skip in XV2.

Isn't "cage of time" said in the anime? if none of them are named, then that is ok, my point doesn't really change much without this little detail

Read above. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

wdym? if i have a cake, of course i can eat it

seriously tho, the said problems i brought up "no one, not even Goku and Hit notice anything different between Hit's normal Time Skip and the supposed different version he supposedly developed in the middle of their fight" between others......not sure why you would ask me to read above when that has nothing to do with the problems i was talking about in the part you are responding

1) What is written on the profile legitimately doesn't matter. Like science, we test, re-examine, and modify as needed when our understanding of a topic has changed. That's what threads are for.

and in the profile we have statements of him "getting stronger as his stance improves", also the whole point i gave of him vs SSJB and SSBK20 Goku, he factually HAS to have gotten stronger and faster else his clash with Goku makes no sense

2) No, you didn't. You just made an argument of incredulity.

how is me pointing out that nothing treats the first instance of time travel time skip and the later on supposed time stop instance of time skip any different from one another me being incredulous? please point out my incredulity here, i can't see it

3) That scan set literally talks about only his Time Skip outside of the last scan, which is also referring to Time Skip.

Hit saying why changed his Skip doesn't change nor impossibilitates that his power rose as well, else why would Beerus, who can feel power levels via Ki sensing, say that he got stronger?

Not physical power. We know this is objectively not about power, because when he improves Time Skip, Vados and Whis comment that there was no power increase. When Hit decribes it, he says he can't improve power. It's raw technique. Only Technique. Which Piccolo then reaffirms. There is absolutely no power increase. Its just Time Skip being improved.

which is contradicted by him innitially getting overwhelmed by Base Blue Goku only to keep up with Blue Kaioken 10x Goku, which he innitially got blitzed by mind you, so if he doesn't grow in power in any capacity.......how do you explain?

Vados literally says he is using the Time Skip Storage (as in, what is called Time Skip), to trap (as in, selectively targetting them), thus using the ability in reverse.

exept she never says that he is using the Time Skip there, but it is rather using the TIME he stored FROM said skips, there is a key difference there, he using the after effects of one technique to use for another technique, not that he is using the Time Skip itself

Again, I'm explicitly referencing the targetting. Not some time reversal.

i see, i got confused by your wording is all, glad we could clear that up

Okay, if you are so confident, can you prove this is a separate, magical power Hit got from no where, totally unrelated to the ONLY KNOWN TIME POWERS HE HAS? What is it's name? How does it work?

dunno, it has been a time skip(no captions, i am not talking about the technique this time) between the U6 saga and their second rematch, so he must have figured out another ways to manip time, this is a classic time skip anime stuff where chars gain new abilities of screen, i don't need to prove what is stated to us

Or, is it MORE LIKELY, that it simply a different application of a power we KNOW he has? Especially since his Time Stop claim happens BEFORE Vados explains Time Skip.

that is impossible since, outside of that Vados statement that would contradict this notion, both Hit and Goku say that he isn't using his Time Skip at all in their rematch, yet you are saying that all of his time abilities are the Time Skip, despite the fact that Goku, Vados and Hit himself say otherwise

Again, what other Time Power does Hit have? Hell, when he uses the Dimension Shift and brings people inside it, like against Dyspo, it's called Time Skip. As is the Phantasms.

those would be both just inconsistencies with the narrative, as when those were introduced it was very well established that they were not the time skip at all

Statement that Hit has a new magical power?

the fact that he shows new abilities, and that it is stated to not be his time skip, i already proved it

Also, if you want to be technical then all this proves is Vados is just objectively wrong and thus isn't a reliable source. Especally when Hit, the guy who HAS THE POWER, contradicts her.

no, Hit, the guy who has the power, says the same as her, they AREN'T the time skip, and Vados was proven right in her explanation as what she described is what Hit did against Goku in that fight

If I'm saying that Hit gets Time Stop later, towards the end of the fight, (which makes sense, as he literally says he's never attempted to improve Time Skip before), then there's no contradiction. So again, what are you talking about?

i am talking about all the other points i showed before of how illogical that would be to everything this improvement is said to do + the "reaction to it" argument, you can't grab each sentence and separate on their own, you have to look at the whole

No, it hasn't. At no point does the story separate these powers.

exempt for Goku, Vados and Hit himself in the rematch

Also, no? Goku is explicitly frozen in Time. You can quite clearly see this.

in the same scene Hit says that all he did was increase the time of his Time Skip, that is all that he says,

Also, if he wasnt't, then no amount of Time Skip length enhancement would've mattered, because the beam they're fighting in would've decimated him.

unless he gets faster when he improves, which as i stated, it is something that HAS to have happened for the clashes he has with Goku to make sense

This also just straight up wouldn't make sense, because if the length of time mattered, Hit disappeared and reappeared inside the beam (as we see where he moved to, right beside Goku, who is within his own KHH Wave), and still would've gotten smacked around. Hell, assuming Goku was still moving, Hit wouldn't be able to move at all and would get bopped by the punch right in front of him, Time Skip or no.

he time travels dude, he just time traveled to outside of the Beam's range + the speed amplification thing i keep saying that he has, you can't disconsider that since it is also an important point i am bringing

Hit literally comments his Time Skip improves so much that Goku can't keep up anymore, and then unlike before, when he hits Goku, Goku doesn't react mid skip.

we don't know that, we never see his face as Hit is hitting him unlike before, which he also didn't made a move at all to counter as Hit was attacking him, it just makes it seem like the speed raising is more likely, as it would be a matter of Goku being unable to react to him

He only reacts to the LAST TWO blows. (As in, when time resumes.) And even then, it's painted as if all the damage suddenly happened at once.

well, i answered that above, so i won't do it again

You haven't substantiated why she would be right and everyone else, including Toei, would be wrong. (Especially since this info is Anime-Only, comes from a Filler Episode, and is contradicted by the prior filler episode.)

there is no "filler" in DBS Anime, not in the sense that would invalidate it in anyway at least, oh and also it isn't just her, Hit and Goku himself say otherwise, and the anime is priority, if outside sources contradict it, then it gets priority

Incredibly disingenuous.

nope, those are my sincere feelings and thoughts towards this matter

 

[omegabronic]

This is the first time I've seen one try to use a statement to disprove a feat

I just rewatched Goku vs hit again, in his final evolution, the area turns red, and when he goes to kill the mob boss, the exact same red background is shown and he's stopping time for them,

Add this to both Toei page and official site stating he stops time as well as further statements of his timeskip stopping time in the ToP and this just gets silly

when he kills the mob boss it isn't red, it is white

 

[RedReaper]

when he kills the mob boss it isn't red, it is white

It's only white when he brings in the Mob Boss. It's red when he stops time before he brings in said Mob Boss.

What? NO, i didn't said that, i said that he can develop new powers.....i never claimed that he developed new haxes by altering his Time Skip, i don't even know how you got that from what i said

You necessarily must have, as the Dimension ability didn't exist for Hit until Epi.72.

Isn't "cage of time" said in the anime? if none of them are named, then that is ok, my point doesn't really change much without this little detail

No, it isn't. Hit just says "I'll put you in a time prison." (No caps.) It's only called Cage of Time in the Latin American Dub, apparently.

wdym? if i have a cake, of course i can eat it

Trruuuue.

seriously tho, the said problems i brought up "no one, not even Goku and Hit notice anything different between Hit's normal Time Skip and the supposed different version he supposedly developed in the middle of their fight" between others......not sure why you would ask me to read above when that has nothing to do with the problems i was talking about in the part you are responding

Again, literally Hit comments his Time Skip has improved. And Goku can't react to it when he literally is frozen.

and in the profile we have statements of him "getting stronger as his stance improves", also the whole point i gave of him vs SSJB and SSBK20 Goku, he factually HAS to have gotten stronger and faster else his clash with Goku makes no sense

No. That statement was about Time Skip. As I literally linked.

how is me pointing out that nothing treats the first instance of time travel time skip and the later on supposed time stop instance of time skip any different from one another me being incredulous? please point out my incredulity here, i can't see it

Because there's no evidence or logic to it. It's just "That seems wrong. So no."

Hit saying why changed his Skip doesn't change nor impossibilitates that his power rose as well, else why would Beerus, who can feel power levels via Ki sensing, say that he got stronger?

So did you not look at Piccolo, Vados, or Whis? Which he confirms? His power simply didn't rise. Also, Beerus was talking about Time Skip, because Hit changes his stances in reference to Time Skip. As I linked.

which is contradicted by him innitially getting overwhelmed by Base Blue Goku only to keep up with Blue Kaioken 10x Goku, which he innitially got blitzed by mind you, so if he doesn't grow in power in any capacity.......how do you explain?

He says he's overwhelmed without Time Skip. Which he then improves, and gets by. So, no. Also, Time Skip effectively nullifies any speed advantage, which is why Dyspo had to hit him prior to it's activation, not in the midst of it.

exept she never says that he is using the Time Skip there, but it is rather using the TIME he stored FROM said skips, there is a key difference there, he using the after effects of one technique to use for another technique, not that he is using the Time Skip itself

Time Skip is called Time Skip because of the fact he skips and stores time, one, but TWO, the Time Dimension he makes is ALSO called Time Skip because of this, and ALL he is DOING is SOLELY TARGETTING JIREN. There is NO OTHER DIFFERENCE. THUS, NECESSARILY, it MUST be TIME SKIP. ANY argument otherwise is just you not agreeing because there wasn't an explicit statement writing out what should be plainly obvious.

i see, i got confused by your wording is all, glad we could clear that up

Same.

dunno, it has been a time skip(no captions, i am not talking about the technique this time) between the U6 saga and their second rematch, so he must have figured out another ways to manip time, this is a classic time skip anime stuff where chars gain new abilities of screen, i don't need to prove what is stated to us

This is literally headcanon to handwave the literal WoG, his own statements, the statements after in the ToP, etc. in favor of Vados.

that is impossible since, outside of that Vados statement that would contradict this notion, both Hit and Goku say that he isn't using his Time Skip at all in their rematch, yet you are saying that all of his time abilities are the Time Skip, despite the fact that Goku, Vados and Hit himself say otherwise

...
Dude.
You literally just agreed the Dimension Shift is Time Skip, as it was stated in the ToP. Goku and Hit are commenting on Dimension Shift. Thus, one of these two data sets are wrong. However, given Hit CONFIRMs it is Time Skip in the ToP, that would take precedence. Also, it's simply more evidence that Time Skip is an umbrella term, like I've been claiming.

those would be both just inconsistencies with the narrative, as when those were introduced it was very well established that they were not the time skip at all

And given more answers favor EVERYTHING except Vados, SHE'S the outlier and should be written off. NOT vice versa. Hell, in 111 when Hit does the Phantasm to avoid a punch, Jiren calls it Time Skipping. Whis then does the VERBATIM SAME EXPLANATION as Vados (the pocket dimension. So more evidence they fall under the same name, as it is merely an application of his root ability.)

the fact that he shows new abilities, and that it is stated to not be his time skip, i already proved it

You didn't prove anything? What scans? What evidence? All you've done is said "No, Vados said-" to everything, even when she's being blatantly contradicted.

no, Hit, the guy who has the power, says the same as her, they AREN'T the time skip, and Vados was proven right in her explanation as what she described is what Hit did against Goku in that fight

No, she was contradicted. And also, even if we were to say she was retconning past events with her explanation (like Servantis did with Kevin 11 in OV), this would then be retconned by Toei Statements/Word of God.

i am talking about all the other points i showed before of how illogical that would be to everything this improvement is said to do + the "reaction to it" argument, you can't grab each sentence and separate on their own, you have to look at the whole

Again, lack of reaction means little. Especially since the only person who can react to it, did, and even claimed he was a Time Stopper when he reappeared later.exempt for Goku, Vados and Hit himself in the rematch
Vados' testimony is worthless (she's contradicted) and both Goku and Hit are contradicted later in the ToP, where Hit confirms it is Time Skip.

unless he gets faster when he improves, which as i stated, it is something that HAS to have happened for the clashes he has with Goku to make sense

He was able to adapt to Jiren's and Dyspo's attack speed and patterns without actually being as fast as them, so no. Similar to Roshi, his raw technique carries him, as verbatim said in U6VU7.

he time travels dude, he just time traveled to outside of the Beam's range + the speed amplification thing i keep saying that he has, you can't disconsider that since it is also an important point i am bringing

There is no speed amp.

we don't know that, we never see his face as Hit is hitting him unlike before, which he also didn't made a move at all to counter as Hit was attacking him, it just makes it seem like the speed raising is more likely, as it would be a matter of Goku being unable to react to him

Goku's face doesn't need to be seen? We know Goku's body reacts normally without seeing his face in all previous shots, like the .2 second barrage. Hell, even that moment makes little sense, because when Time Resumes Goku is back in his stance-Because he never left it. Then he keels over.

there is no "filler" in DBS Anime, not in the sense that would invalidate it in anyway at least, oh and also it isn't just her, Hit and Goku himself say otherwise, and the anime is priority, if outside sources contradict it, then it gets priority

Obviously it's a whole continuity it's own, but it's not apart of the main story. Answered the last bit already.

nope, those are my sincere feelings and thoughts towards this matter

Then your sincere feelings are literally injecting headcanon into events and ignoring verbatim statements. Hell, it's ironic-You're using Vados ONE statement to disprove a feat, but you won't let several statements disprove Hit's "increase in power." (that never happened). Literally self-contradictory logic.

 

[RenderGK]

even when hit uses his pocket dimension to hide vs jiren, at the top, champa and vados say that he is using time skip.

the same one he used against his and Goku's revenge

 

[omegabronic]

It's only white when he brings in the Mob Boss. It's red when he stops time before he brings in said Mob Boss.

Which then it is white again once he uses the dimension shift and time skip against Dyspo in the tournament, either way, the colors are not exactly consistent

You necessarily must have, as the Dimension ability didn't exist for Hit until Epi.72.

......i don't see how this answer what i said, when did i said that he had altered his Time Skip to do all of these other effects? At max i said he developted new abilities

No, it isn't. Hit just says "I'll put you in a time prison." (No caps.) It's only called Cage of Time in the Latin American Dub, apparently.

huh, well good to know, i am from latin america, so that must have been a confusioj on my part

Trruuuue.

yumy

Again, literally Hit comments his Time Skip has improved. And Goku can't react to it when he literally is frozen.

......again, don't see how this answer the part you are quoting, i have pointed other more likely posibilities based on facts we knew happened (hit jumping from bellow SSJB level to SSJBK level) idk why you are repeating this again on this part

No. That statement was about Time Skip. As I literally linked.

"His stance evolves as >he becomes stronger<"
That last one is talking about Hit's strenght, which is consistent with him seemingly growing to KK10xB level

Because there's no evidence or logic to it. It's just "That seems wrong. So no."

There is evidence, logical inconsistencies and statements i presented, you may not agree with them, but that doesn't mean they don't exist

So did you not look at Piccolo, Vados, or Whis? Which he confirms? His power simply didn't rise. Also, Beerus was talking about Time Skip, because Hit changes his stances in reference to Time Skip. As I linked.

which as i said, doesn't matter for the fact that Beerus said he fot stronger, the Bkk point i will say again later since you adressed it

He says he's overwhelmed without Time Skip. Which he then improves, and gets by. So, no.

which then he keeps up with Goku, which even normal kaiken was enough to blitz him completely, and then later on he reacted to several of Goku's attacks and harms him with his own despite being overpowered by blue alone earlier

Also, Time Skip effectively nullifies any speed advantage, which is why Dyspo had to hit him prior to it's activation, not in the midst of it.

It quite literally doesn't, Goku's predictions show as much since he can move in conjuntion to Hit's Skips to hit/counter him, which he complements when going Blue and asking Hit if he can keep up with his speed

Time Skip is called Time Skip because of the fact he skips and stores time, one, but TWO, the Time Dimension he makes is ALSO called Time Skip because of this

exept that himself and Goku said otherwise, and it is called Time Skip because it skips time, then Hit can store the time that is skiped and then manipulate it

and ALL he is DOING is SOLELY TARGETTING JIREN. There is NO OTHER DIFFERENCE. THUS, NECESSARILY, it MUST be TIME SKIP.

No? Don't see how him using the time he stored to target jiren would mean that it is the Time Skip

ANY argument otherwise is just you not agreeing because there wasn't an explicit statement writing out what should be plainly obvious.

Except we have explicit statements that it isn't

Same.

Cool

This is literally headcanon to handwave the literal WoG, his own statements, the statements after in the ToP, etc. in favor of Vados.

Says you ignoring his own statements that corroborades with Vados', also.......it isn't headcanon, he showed new stuff he didn't do before, therefore he developed new abilities.....what is so weird about that?

...
Dude.
You literally just agreed the Dimension Shift is Time Skip, as it was stated in the ToP.

No, i said i would have agreed if it wasn't for this evidence saying otherwise

Goku and Hit are commenting on Dimension Shift. Thus, one of these two data sets are wrong. However, given Hit CONFIRMs it is Time Skip in the ToP, that would take precedence. Also, it's simply more evidence that Time Skip is an umbrella term, like I've been claiming.

Why would 2 statement of the ToP get more precedence over 3 statements from when the ability was introduced?

And given more answers favor EVERYTHING except Vados, SHE'S the outlier and should be written off. NOT vice versa. Hell, in 111 when Hit does the Phantasm to avoid a punch, Jiren calls it Time Skipping. Whis then does the VERBATIM SAME EXPLANATION as Vados (the pocket dimension. So more evidence they fall under the same name, as it is merely an application of his root ability.)

good and all but, she can't be an outlier when Hit himself and Goku say otherwise, also in that scene nothing stops Hit from doing botj at the same time, one to avoid and the other to Hit jiren, which he fails as Jiren does like Goku and intercepts Hit mid skip, even then, again, why would the ToP take precedence over the arc where the Ability is introduced? This would also null Goku's statement of the Time Skip not working on him as, if you want to count dimensional shifting as Time Skip, then it would be contradictory as it has worked on Goku

You didn't prove anything? What scans? What evidence? All you've done is said "No, Vados said-" to everything, even when she's being blatantly contradicted.

all the other evide i brought? The other scans with statements? Pointing out situarions that favor said statements? Pointing out logical problems with your proposal? Like, this is a classic way to try and desmolorize your oposition "you didn't prove anything therefore i am right" but it doesn't work when i have proved my point, it just so happens that you don't agree with the proofs, which i am sure you must feel about me as well

No, she was contradicted. And also, even if we were to say she was retconning past events with her explanation (like Servantis did with Kevin 11 in OV), this would then be retconned by Toei Statements/Word of God.

Which have less credibility than the show itaelf, which takes precedence, also it is says that Time Skip stops time as a main function, which is conteadicted by the very first time it is used, also why do you keep ignoring the Hit and Goku statements i sent and keeps focusing on Vados'? Looks deaingenuous if you ask me

Again, lack of reaction means little. Especially since the only person who can react to it, did, and even claimed he was a Time Stopper when he reappeared later.

huh? No? I assume the one you are talking about is Goku, which he never says that, can you be more clear what you are referencing here?

exempt for Goku, Vados and Hit himself in the rematch
Vados' testimony is worthless (she's contradicted) and both Goku and Hit are contradicted later in the ToP, where Hit confirms it is Time Skip.

Vados is never contradicted after her statement, Hit's usage in the U6 saga is the one being contradictory to what it is said in later sagas, which you seem to be ok with using retcons as argument, in which case this "retcon" is never once contradicted later in the series

He was able to adapt to Jiren's and Dyspo's attack speed and patterns without actually being as fast as them, so no. Similar to Roshi, his raw technique carries him, as verbatim said in U6VU7.

which is not true since he straight couldn't see Goku moving due to the spees difference when he used basic Kaioken, which Goku then amped by 10x and then Hit is able to follow him with his eyes, briefly stay ahead of him in a chase and block several of his attacks, even clashin with his kamehameha directly

There is no speed amp.

there is

Goku's face doesn't need to be seen? We know Goku's body reacts normally without seeing his face in all previous shots, like the .2 second barrage.

which in this case also did once Hit punched his head, if you want to use that

Hell, even that moment makes little sense, because when Time Resumes Goku is back in his stance-Because he never left it. Then he keels over.

So the ability is self contradictory in its effects in usage is what you mean?

Obviously it's a whole continuity it's own, but it's not apart of the main story.

It is part of the main story, there is no "side quest" when all of it is canon

Answered the last bit already.

Wait did you? Legit question

Then your sincere feelings are literally injecting headcanon into events and ignoring verbatim statements.

I Could say the same to you, but let's keep it chill ok?

Hell, it's ironic-You're using Vados ONE statement to disprove a feat, but you won't let several statements disprove Hit's "increase in power." (that never happened). Literally self-contradictory logic.

I am using several statements and not only Vados', saying otherwise is nothing but a lie, and you also ignore the statements that he did increased in power, and the whole situation with SsjBK10x that proves it, with your logic also self contradicting itself

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Okay I have a strange but honest question for you guys: Were you ever introduced to a band because of Dragon Ball AMVs or, if you're from the West, the American soundtrack of the Z era movies which included a number of rock and heavy metal bands in them?

I got introduced to the band Disturbed because of movies like Lord Slug and Cooler's Revenge, these scenes in particular being some of my most cherished Dragon Ball memories of all time. And even if some would argue that rock doesn't match the tone of the series, seeing the heroes or villains beating the shit out of each other with metal playing is raw as ****.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Y'know, after some thought (and reading translation notes), his Time Freeze might just be a really long Time-Skip.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Y'know, after some thought (and reading translation notes), his Time Freeze might just be a really long Time-Skip.

I don't understand what you mean, bro

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

I don't understand what you mean, bro

Hit´s "Time Freeze" technique is just a longer version of his Time Stop

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Y'know, after some thought (and reading translation notes), his Time Freeze might just be a really long Time-Skip.

Thiiiiiis implies Time-Skip is a short Time Freeze

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Hit´s "Time Freeze" technique is just a longer version of his Time Stop

I understand

 

[RenderGK]

Honestly, on the topic of the hit, there is more evidence and support that time skip has different uses, such as stopping time, skipping time, and can create dimensions.

and the first time the ability was introduced it was called time skip, which stops time for 1 tenth of a second.

like at the top where Vados mentions that Hit uses time skip in every fight he has hit,

and Goku's vs hit is more of a clarification that the punch didn't use time skip or the time stop derived from it, since it doesn't work on Goku.

 

[TiltedFN]

Vados literally explained that he doesn't stop it, but skips it, then uses that skipped time to make an alternate dimension, in which time is actually stopped in there. Its always just been multiple abilities.

 

[omegabronic]

Vados literally explained that he doesn't stop it, but skips it, then uses that skipped time to make an alternate dimension, in which time is actually stopped in there. Its always just been multiple abilities.

THANK YOU

 

[RenderGK]

be it whatever ability hit is using, time stop, time skip, time cage or his dimension where hit is hiding,

at the top always any of them is called time skip

 

[RedReaper]

Okay I have a strange but honest question for you guys: Were you ever introduced to a band because of Dragon Ball AMVs or, if you're from the West, the American soundtrack of the Z era movies which included a number of rock and heavy metal bands in them?

I got introduced to the band Disturbed because of movies like Lord Slug and Cooler's Revenge, these scenes in particular being some of my most cherished Dragon Ball memories of all time. And even if some would argue that rock doesn't match the tone of the series, seeing the heroes or villains beating the shit out of each other with metal playing is raw as ****.

See, I'm in the unique position where my dad simply loved Dragon Ball and rock music, so I had all the bands and songs in my head AND the sick fights from movies in my head, as totally separate experiences. Of course, I didn't actually know them all, so he introduced me to any new ones I heard in a film. Like 10's by Pantera from the original Broly movie.

 

[BlastX]

I can't believe DBZ Kai english dub was so based to make an awesome theme like Let It Burn for one of the best fights in the franchise, just...sublime...

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Sucks that the opening is garbage.

 

[TiltedFN]

Sucks that the opening is garbage.

No way you just said this shit

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Sucks that the opening is garbage.

?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

"Dragon Soul" is genuinely my least favorite opening theme in the entire franchise.
I prefer Kai's Ocean dub opening.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

"Dragon Soul" is genuinely my least favorite opening theme in the entire franchise.
I prefer Kai's Ocean dub opening.

I mainly like it because of the dubbing in my country.


I like the voice more.

And there are some slightly different parts.

Like, "Dokkan Dokkan" was like, "Fly, come on, come with me!" (I'm using google translator)

And the "命に変えても守るよ" part it went like this "I will take you to the blue sky between the clouds"

As well as other cute things.

 

[TiltedFN]

"Dragon Soul" is genuinely my least favorite opening theme in the entire franchise.
I prefer Kai's Ocean dub opening.

prolly the worst take ive ever seen.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

"Dragon Soul" is genuinely my least favorite opening theme in the entire franchise.

How dare you

 

[BlastX]

"Dragon Soul" is genuinely my least favorite opening theme in the entire franchise.
I prefer Kai's Ocean dub opening.

Common Null L