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Absolutely not proof, but it is a good sign that it didn't instantly get hit with rage napalm.
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Dragon Ball vs. Marvel/DC/Saint Seiya threads
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Even though Hop does not disagree with Sera's points, because they are good and hold firm, might Hop point out how we are not the only site that bans these types of match-ups?
There is obviously some reason entirely similar communities have a large agreement on banning similar match-ups. Hop thinks because we're all aware that the concept of these matches, while enticing and grand, are still, more so than all other matches by far, likely to start flame wars and huge bias from fans. Even if a reasonable occurrence of a VS match were to occur with a fair and calm debate, the issue lies in many of these series being either:
Hop is on the side of enforcing it, but like Hop said Sera's points and her supporters are valid and it is logical to make that approach if we answer yes to those questions.
There is obviously some reason entirely similar communities have a large agreement on banning similar match-ups. Hop thinks because we're all aware that the concept of these matches, while enticing and grand, are still, more so than all other matches by far, likely to start flame wars and huge bias from fans. Even if a reasonable occurrence of a VS match were to occur with a fair and calm debate, the issue lies in many of these series being either:
- ongoing and characters/feats/powers are changing or being up/downgraded
- conflict with existing rules and guidelines we've posted on the wiki (such as spite/stomp/unbalanced matches hiding in plain sight) and would still
- increase our overall traffic, but also the staff's overall workload
Hop is on the side of enforcing it, but like Hop said Sera's points and her supporters are valid and it is logical to make that approach if we answer yes to those questions.
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Again, One Piece vs. Fairy Tail (also very popular) has also gotten pretty bad, yet they are still allowed. The restriction is fine, but as Kepekley said, the rule is a guideline, not an absolute law that must be followed without any resistance (we have plenty of those already). My thread didn't even begin and people already started posting "this is banned/not allowed". The match itself was never done before, and likely wouldn't have been even if there was no ban because people use the same characters over and over again. That is what makes the ban so annoying and if that's the case I'd prefer it'd be lifted. I don't see any harm in a fair match-up, regardless of fanboys. If they wanna rage they can do so on some other wiki. Search and Destroy. We do it everyday. You think this is gonna increase staff workload? Really? Staff members post in vs threads all the time. It's fun. I mean no disrespect of any kind, but that logic doesn't sit well with me. That's all we do. If someone is being a bother we warn or ban if appropriate and if a group of people are acting a fool we close the thread.
I despise, "the Good have to suffer with the Bad" logic. What if someone had a non-hostile, fair, and smooth DC vs. DB match? It gets spammed with "this isn't allowed/stop starting flamewars" just because in the past, a few knuckleheads that take Vs. Debating too seriously threw a temper tantrum in a Vegeta vs. Wonder Woman thread? Grow up. That is not our problem. Search and Destroy. How hard can that possibly be, some of you have been doing it for years. I shouldn't be prohibited from making a good matchup because a bunch of fanboys are acting a fool and letting their bias scream to Kingdom Come, nor should anyone else. I know there's hax stomps with DB vs SS and AP stomps in DB vs DC/Marvel, but I obviously know how to find appropriate matchups. I found a match that didn't need to be speed equalized after all, something everyone claims is so difficult. So what are we gonna do? Think about those who may have innocent matches and not those who just to pick a fight.
I despise, "the Good have to suffer with the Bad" logic. What if someone had a non-hostile, fair, and smooth DC vs. DB match? It gets spammed with "this isn't allowed/stop starting flamewars" just because in the past, a few knuckleheads that take Vs. Debating too seriously threw a temper tantrum in a Vegeta vs. Wonder Woman thread? Grow up. That is not our problem. Search and Destroy. How hard can that possibly be, some of you have been doing it for years. I shouldn't be prohibited from making a good matchup because a bunch of fanboys are acting a fool and letting their bias scream to Kingdom Come, nor should anyone else. I know there's hax stomps with DB vs SS and AP stomps in DB vs DC/Marvel, but I obviously know how to find appropriate matchups. I found a match that didn't need to be speed equalized after all, something everyone claims is so difficult. So what are we gonna do? Think about those who may have innocent matches and not those who just to pick a fight.
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It's still a terrible idea. 90% of these matchups are stomps or exact copies of each other, they are spammed, and they usually have little debate in them.
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Literally just proved it is a stomp match.DMUA said:
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@Matt
Sorry, doesn't work like that. For example, think about how many people BB stomp because of her authroity (whether you think it's wank or not is irrelevant to my point). Think about how many times she's spammed in vs threads. We have yet to ban BB.
Sorry, doesn't work like that. For example, think about how many people BB stomp because of her authroity (whether you think it's wank or not is irrelevant to my point). Think about how many times she's spammed in vs threads. We have yet to ban BB.
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That wasn't my point. BB is one character. It is not a Verse vs Verse sort of thing where one side almost always wins.
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Like Hop mentioned, with verses like these, while its okay to have a good and calm debate, which isn't what Hop is saying won't ever happen, these are huge verses, that are ever changing and have enormous amounts of fans that Hop thinks the wiki can't truly handle, not at our increased popularity and noteriety (can't change that but **** whoever is just a hater). But Hop thinks normal and casual debates will be common. But just because the majority of them will be fine doesn't mean it won't be more work.
The math could be something like this. Say in a week of regular match-ups, users make about 100 VS between these verses. While 80-90 of them can go fine, or just die due to lack of input (RIP) the remaining is another 10 or 20 to what we already have, and even staff have been subject to the bias, so its likely these can go on for a while before being closed or having a genuine outcome. The sheer number of Goku v Superman fights and the results (not the winner, but the effects on the communities) they have on the site(s) are pretty unwanted and harsh. It would be best to make every effort in preventing that.
And yeah, we're not here to say "NO DRAGON BALL VS DC EVER" and make it law, cause it's not like every Krillin vs Green Arrow is going to become a firestorm, but the other firestorms it will put into our workflow. S&D is great mindset, but we can't have an on/off switch for this kind of thing. Staff go on vacation, retire or get lazy. Or have real life happen (shoutout to the real MVPs). Hop doesn't really trust in this suggestion as being a strong and persisting foundation for future match-up rules. At least not yet.
The math could be something like this. Say in a week of regular match-ups, users make about 100 VS between these verses. While 80-90 of them can go fine, or just die due to lack of input (RIP) the remaining is another 10 or 20 to what we already have, and even staff have been subject to the bias, so its likely these can go on for a while before being closed or having a genuine outcome. The sheer number of Goku v Superman fights and the results (not the winner, but the effects on the communities) they have on the site(s) are pretty unwanted and harsh. It would be best to make every effort in preventing that.
And yeah, we're not here to say "NO DRAGON BALL VS DC EVER" and make it law, cause it's not like every Krillin vs Green Arrow is going to become a firestorm, but the other firestorms it will put into our workflow. S&D is great mindset, but we can't have an on/off switch for this kind of thing. Staff go on vacation, retire or get lazy. Or have real life happen (shoutout to the real MVPs). Hop doesn't really trust in this suggestion as being a strong and persisting foundation for future match-up rules. At least not yet.
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Pokémon vs Digimon for example isn't banned though.Matthew Schroeder said:
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@Cal Those don't tend to get out of hand because there's plenty of cross fandom going on there, and usually both fandoms tend to recognize the reason they're different.
Unlike massive franchises that have unique and very different mechanics, those two are less lore heavy and more feat oriented. They need allot less interpretation to make sure a feat is actually the tier/range/etc that it is.
DBZ and stuff can require allot of OG manga reading to get an accurate feel. Same with Star Wars. Sometimes the films and the other major releases hold complete precendance and most fans aren't willing to dig into the verse even for argument's sake.
Unlike massive franchises that have unique and very different mechanics, those two are less lore heavy and more feat oriented. They need allot less interpretation to make sure a feat is actually the tier/range/etc that it is.
DBZ and stuff can require allot of OG manga reading to get an accurate feel. Same with Star Wars. Sometimes the films and the other major releases hold complete precendance and most fans aren't willing to dig into the verse even for argument's sake.
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@Hop
Pokémon vs. Digimon is literally the mon analogue of DC vs. Dragon Ball. Go to every single VS site out of there. Go to the Charizard vs Greymon death battle.
It's always RIDDLED with fanboy wars on the scale of Goku vs. Superman. No fan at all recognizes the difference between both series.
The reason why it doesn't get out of hand here is because we've strived to build a reasonable community, and so far it's working. I see no problem at all with lifting this rule.
Pokémon vs. Digimon is literally the mon analogue of DC vs. Dragon Ball. Go to every single VS site out of there. Go to the Charizard vs Greymon death battle.
It's always RIDDLED with fanboy wars on the scale of Goku vs. Superman. No fan at all recognizes the difference between both series.
The reason why it doesn't get out of hand here is because we've strived to build a reasonable community, and so far it's working. I see no problem at all with lifting this rule.
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@Matt
And you miss my point. All hax/ap stomps are banned. So why should I not be allowed to make a fair DB vs DC thread? Because instead of it being a matter of "AP/Hax" stomp. It's matter of such threads being banned altogether. Again, not fair.
And you miss my point. All hax/ap stomps are banned. So why should I not be allowed to make a fair DB vs DC thread? Because instead of it being a matter of "AP/Hax" stomp. It's matter of such threads being banned altogether. Again, not fair.
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@Kepekley23 & Sera
That is true, and your reason may be right, but we have had our fair share of people who have and always will be getting out of hand. Like I said at first, even long term staff and normally level headed people get at each other's throats over it.
And they do this for allot of reasons, and it has little to do with things like "HE'S OBVIOUSLY GONNA STOMP HIM" or "these verses shouldn't fight because they always lead to a closed thread" (ignoring the rule we have in place in this example). Mainly, people argue and get heated because the either refuse to understand the other person's point, even if the facts are right there, or because they try to get away with using an interpretation of the character/power in question. Making any type of long winded arugment they can to support their side, no matter how loose.
Because of this, I choose to believe it's a social thing and a personal kind of debate many people take truly to heart. More so than the generic "Radditz vs Superboy" stuff we can expect to see as a result of lifting this ban/rule/thing.
We don't get it allot, but at this point it almost seems like it will open Pandora's box and cause Murphy's law to swallow us whole. I still don't find strong faith in the community just because we cherry pick our own good behavior for these types of matches.
That is true, and your reason may be right, but we have had our fair share of people who have and always will be getting out of hand. Like I said at first, even long term staff and normally level headed people get at each other's throats over it.
And they do this for allot of reasons, and it has little to do with things like "HE'S OBVIOUSLY GONNA STOMP HIM" or "these verses shouldn't fight because they always lead to a closed thread" (ignoring the rule we have in place in this example). Mainly, people argue and get heated because the either refuse to understand the other person's point, even if the facts are right there, or because they try to get away with using an interpretation of the character/power in question. Making any type of long winded arugment they can to support their side, no matter how loose.
Because of this, I choose to believe it's a social thing and a personal kind of debate many people take truly to heart. More so than the generic "Radditz vs Superboy" stuff we can expect to see as a result of lifting this ban/rule/thing.
We don't get it allot, but at this point it almost seems like it will open Pandora's box and cause Murphy's law to swallow us whole. I still don't find strong faith in the community just because we cherry pick our own good behavior for these types of matches.
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A fair fight is exactly what we all know we can get out of this rule being lifted or bent.
But the potential for shit to go wrong so easily and quickly, and so often for the forseeable future, especially with the characters we get here... tsk, hard to say I personally have confidence it being removed. At least just yet.
But the potential for shit to go wrong so easily and quickly, and so often for the forseeable future, especially with the characters we get here... tsk, hard to say I personally have confidence it being removed. At least just yet.
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> Like I said at first, even long term staff and normally level headed people get at each other's throats over it.
You know full well this wouldn't happen if we lifted the rule today. 2015 VSBW isn't 2018 VSBW.
And the fact that none of the threads created so far have spiralled out of control is also a heavy blow to this argument.
> We don't get it allot, but at this point it almost seems like it will open Pandora's box and cause Murphy's law to swallow us whole.
This is honestly a complete exaggeration. This has never happened, at least not to this degree.
You know full well this wouldn't happen if we lifted the rule today. 2015 VSBW isn't 2018 VSBW.
And the fact that none of the threads created so far have spiralled out of control is also a heavy blow to this argument.
> We don't get it allot, but at this point it almost seems like it will open Pandora's box and cause Murphy's law to swallow us whole.
This is honestly a complete exaggeration. This has never happened, at least not to this degree.
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Just gonna say that seeing how the threads are going. (Concept wise) I am sorta thinking this was a mistake. However, I will stay neutrat.
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@Kep
Woah, is that anger? I might read you wrong here, so my bad in advance, but your verbage reveals enough, my guy. This is what I was talking about too. No need to kill each other over any sort of disagreement.
Now, sure, you got a good point about how this wiki changed. Here's why I said I don't find that valid. I think at the level of popularity we have now (since this is 2015 VSBW isn't 2018 VSBW) we can't expect our current and future audience to maintain what they always have since maybe the verse they are most passionate about isn't allowed to fight one they also are (or aren't).
To set the record straight, that second thing you quoted was an exaggeration. I'm just using fancy ways to communicate that we don't know for a fact what to expect if we tell thousands of regular and active users "yo, this thing I bet 95% of you want to debate about is good to go" all of a sudden.
Because I can't say its logical to foresee we will almost always get good match-ups, I'm not in full support of lifting it yet. I agree with you reasons, but the "bad feeling about this" looms a touch heavier than that reasoning can relieve. I just don't find it solid.
With all due respect to you and all the other staff, I actually don't know full well if level-headed staff and users won't get each other's throats. And apparently allot of long term admins and Ant would agree. Maybe it won't be their first time arguing it, but it doesn't mean they as a person won't take advantage for you-know-who to fight you-know-who, if you catch my drift. (I'm not alluding to any actual fight, just the ones that usually start a firestorm). That said, that is where I stand.
Woah, is that anger? I might read you wrong here, so my bad in advance, but your verbage reveals enough, my guy. This is what I was talking about too. No need to kill each other over any sort of disagreement.
Now, sure, you got a good point about how this wiki changed. Here's why I said I don't find that valid. I think at the level of popularity we have now (since this is 2015 VSBW isn't 2018 VSBW) we can't expect our current and future audience to maintain what they always have since maybe the verse they are most passionate about isn't allowed to fight one they also are (or aren't).
To set the record straight, that second thing you quoted was an exaggeration. I'm just using fancy ways to communicate that we don't know for a fact what to expect if we tell thousands of regular and active users "yo, this thing I bet 95% of you want to debate about is good to go" all of a sudden.
Because I can't say its logical to foresee we will almost always get good match-ups, I'm not in full support of lifting it yet. I agree with you reasons, but the "bad feeling about this" looms a touch heavier than that reasoning can relieve. I just don't find it solid.
With all due respect to you and all the other staff, I actually don't know full well if level-headed staff and users won't get each other's throats. And apparently allot of long term admins and Ant would agree. Maybe it won't be their first time arguing it, but it doesn't mean they as a person won't take advantage for you-know-who to fight you-know-who, if you catch my drift. (I'm not alluding to any actual fight, just the ones that usually start a firestorm). That said, that is where I stand.
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But people are also not using their heads. Two stomps already. I would have hoped people would have common sense to know whether the match they are making is a stomp or not. And now they are about to spam nothing but DB vs DC.
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Not anger at all. I do have depression, yes, but I keep myself in check.
It's more like me trying to confront your post because I don't buy your arguments.
It's more like me trying to confront your post because I don't buy your arguments.
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Yet the threads didn't outright hit the fan, they just weren't fair matchups
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People are making every DB character fight the most iconic characters of their representative verses, guarantee they don't even check the profiles thoroughly.Dragonmasterxyz said:
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@Kep
I understand don't worry.
I also see why you don't buy what I have to say, it's just the opposite with me for reasons I already stated.
(I won't repeat for sake of ad naseum and thread length. I rather reduce the number of times you have to hit page down, swipe or use the scroll wheel).
I understand don't worry.
I also see why you don't buy what I have to say, it's just the opposite with me for reasons I already stated.
(I won't repeat for sake of ad naseum and thread length. I rather reduce the number of times you have to hit page down, swipe or use the scroll wheel).
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Umu, at best we have a situation of people being knuckleheads again. I still don't see why that's so bad.
1-A threads are equally controversial, yet they are still allowed. Like DarkLK believes we can have 1-A matches, I believe we can have DC. vs. DB matches. My mind shall not change based on people being, dare I say, foolish?
1-A threads are equally controversial, yet they are still allowed. Like DarkLK believes we can have 1-A matches, I believe we can have DC. vs. DB matches. My mind shall not change based on people being, dare I say, foolish?
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Okay, I have to say this.
1) I don't care if these are lifted or not, But I hope everyone realizes all the pros and cons of this. However, if we keep this banned then equally flame war causing fights should also be banned.
2) Why is it so damn hard for people to not go all hogwild with these matches. We don't need to spam DB vs DC all the time. Don't make this the same FT vs OP or FT vs Bleach. This is getting ridiculous already.
3) Do people actually have the common sense to y'know, check to see if their match is a stomp before they make it? Like seriously. We have had like at least 3 stomps made so far. If you are to make a fight, at least make some attempt to find out the abilities of you fighters. Like seriously people.
Common sense people.
1) I don't care if these are lifted or not, But I hope everyone realizes all the pros and cons of this. However, if we keep this banned then equally flame war causing fights should also be banned.
2) Why is it so damn hard for people to not go all hogwild with these matches. We don't need to spam DB vs DC all the time. Don't make this the same FT vs OP or FT vs Bleach. This is getting ridiculous already.
3) Do people actually have the common sense to y'know, check to see if their match is a stomp before they make it? Like seriously. We have had like at least 3 stomps made so far. If you are to make a fight, at least make some attempt to find out the abilities of you fighters. Like seriously people.
Common sense people.
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I suppose we should ban:
>Fate vs. Naruto
>Pokemon vs. Digimon
>Pokemon vs. Dragon Ball
>Sailor Moon vs. Dragon Ball
>Kirby vs. Dragon Ball
>Kingdom Hearts vs. Dragon Ball
>Beyblade vs. Dragonball
>Saint Seiya vs. DC/Marvel (lots of hax stomps in SS's favor...)
I could keep going (most are hax stomps).
>Fate vs. Naruto
>Pokemon vs. Digimon
>Pokemon vs. Dragon Ball
>Sailor Moon vs. Dragon Ball
>Kirby vs. Dragon Ball
>Kingdom Hearts vs. Dragon Ball
>Beyblade vs. Dragonball
>Saint Seiya vs. DC/Marvel (lots of hax stomps in SS's favor...)
I could keep going (most are hax stomps).
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Give it time. Of course people are going to spam it; these matchups have been banned for years.Dragonmasterxyz said:
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@Dragon did you count the one I closed?
@Venom last time I checked, none of those remotely get as controversial as often or to the degree of some of DB vs DC's worst threads.
@Sera don't you disagree with 1-As vs 1-As? Why are you using it as an example?
@Venom last time I checked, none of those remotely get as controversial as often or to the degree of some of DB vs DC's worst threads.
@Sera don't you disagree with 1-As vs 1-As? Why are you using it as an example?
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> None of those are as controversial
> Naruto vs DBZ
> Pokémon vs Digimon
They absolutely are.
> Naruto vs DBZ
> Pokémon vs Digimon
They absolutely are.
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@SomebodyData
I take you haven't seen many Pokemon vs. Digimon threads?
I'm not talking about controversy, I'm talking about stomps.
I take you haven't seen many Pokemon vs. Digimon threads?
I'm not talking about controversy, I'm talking about stomps.
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@Kepe
>Examples have shown threads that have worked far more often than DB vs DC. Heck we literally just had more threads that had to be closed in a few hours than we do for both of those in a normal week.
@Venom
Actually, I haven't. Mind showing me a recent one?
@Sera
Two wrongs don't make a right. Isn't it virtually impossible to get one that isn't a stomp anyways?
>Examples have shown threads that have worked far more often than DB vs DC. Heck we literally just had more threads that had to be closed in a few hours than we do for both of those in a normal week.
@Venom
Actually, I haven't. Mind showing me a recent one?
@Sera
Two wrongs don't make a right. Isn't it virtually impossible to get one that isn't a stomp anyways?
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They had to be closed in a few hours because they were concluded.
Also, once again, stomps = \ = flame wars.
Also, once again, stomps = \ = flame wars.
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Wow. People make BEYBLADE vs DBZ of all things? I didn't even know people liked that anime.
As for your point @Kepekley23 yeah, I agree there. However it's good to avoid both or either when we have influence over it. We already ban and enforce it from stopping.
As for your point @Kepekley23 yeah, I agree there. However it's good to avoid both or either when we have influence over it. We already ban and enforce it from stopping.
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Is it? Is it though? OvO
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- Thread starter
- #80
I agree with Hop and Matthew.
The crucial issue is that Marvel/DC and Dragon Ball both have massive fandoms that are traditionally antagonistic towards each other, and a great influx of members of the fandoms would severely overtax the staff, whose by far most important tasks are to monitor edits and contribute to content revision threads, not play whack-a-mole with out of control versus threads.
I am constantly overwhelmed as it is by my wiki work, and the new shared edit-patrolling script has not diminished my workload as I had hoped, so if the staff are kept too busy managing something comparatively irrelevant to be able to properly help me out with the most important tasks, we have a very serious problem on our hands.
The crucial issue is that Marvel/DC and Dragon Ball both have massive fandoms that are traditionally antagonistic towards each other, and a great influx of members of the fandoms would severely overtax the staff, whose by far most important tasks are to monitor edits and contribute to content revision threads, not play whack-a-mole with out of control versus threads.
I am constantly overwhelmed as it is by my wiki work, and the new shared edit-patrolling script has not diminished my workload as I had hoped, so if the staff are kept too busy managing something comparatively irrelevant to be able to properly help me out with the most important tasks, we have a very serious problem on our hands.
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